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3D printers impact on F1?


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#1 Jackmancer

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 07:54

Hey guys,
I'm studying at an art academy (course is advertising), so not really anything F1 related, you would say, especially not technical. But in one class, called Open Design, we discussed the future of 3D printers and open design. There are architects 'printing' houses now. Not in one piece, but piece by piece.

I'm wondering, what if F1 cars, pieces of it, can be printed? What would be the impact? Could 'parts' be modelled during practise and new, adjusted parts, printed inside of the paddock? Can 3D printers print carbon fibre?

I'm really curious.

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#2 yoyogetfunky

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 08:08

Hey guys,
I'm studying at an art academy (course is advertising), so not really anything F1 related, you would say, especially not technical. But in one class, called Open Design, we discussed the future of 3D printers and open design. There are architects 'printing' houses now. Not in one piece, but piece by piece.

I'm wondering, what if F1 cars, pieces of it, can be printed? What would be the impact? Could 'parts' be modelled during practise and new, adjusted parts, printed inside of the paddock? Can 3D printers print carbon fibre?

I'm really curious.


You should check that nice red bull pre launch video, i think its on their website. They seem to be using one.

#3 Fatgadget

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 08:17

Hey guys,
I'm studying at an art academy (course is advertising), so not really anything F1 related, you would say, especially not technical. But in one class, called Open Design, we discussed the future of 3D printers and open design. There are architects 'printing' houses now. Not in one piece, but piece by piece.

I'm wondering, what if F1 cars, pieces of it, can be printed? What would be the impact? Could 'parts' be modelled during practise and new, adjusted parts, printed inside of the paddock? Can 3D printers print carbon fibre?

I'm really curious.

Eh!...How is it possible to 'print' say a piston capable of sustaining extremes of both pressure and temperature?
I think perhaps this topic is best in the technical section of the board! :)


#4 schumimercamg

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 08:34

Eh!...How is it possible to 'print' say a piston capable of sustaining extremes of both pressure and temperature?
I think perhaps this topic is best in the technical section of the board! :)


He's referring to body work not engines

#5 schumimercamg

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 08:34

Eh!...How is it possible to 'print' say a piston capable of sustaining extremes of both pressure and temperature?
I think perhaps this topic is best in the technical section of the board! :)


He's referring to body work not engines

#6 sesku

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 08:50

3D printer was used in some non-critical/rapid prototype component (ie. Side mirror, brake duct) in F1 car. Remember when outboard mirrors was banned a few years ago, Red Bull actually screwed a 3D printed inboard mirror on their car during testing!

http://scarbsf1.com/...f-rp-materials/

Edited by sesku, 06 April 2013 - 08:56.


#7 Timstr11

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 09:00

3D printing is the new fad but it has been used in F1 for years called Rapid Prototyping to make aero model parts.
As mentioned, brake ducts are already made using this technology. Don't know about other parts.





#8 Bloggsworth

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 09:11

You can "print" sintered metals, but I'm not sure I'd want to use the results in a structural way. 3D printing has been around for well over a decade - All of a sudden it's "New technology."

#9 BullHead

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 09:24

The materials that can be 'printed' with are AFAIK limited, especially when it comes to materials of structural integrity.

#10 SealTheDiffuser

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 10:44

3D printing is the new fad but it has been used in F1 for years called Rapid Prototyping to make aero model parts.
As mentioned, brake ducts are already made using this technology. Don't know about other parts.



+1

for op good article here:

http://www.racecar-e...in-lmp1-design/

#11 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 11:08

I've found the 3d printing craze a bit funny, because I saw one at the Minardi factory a decade ago. That was stereolithography a stereolithography machine which might be a bit different but I have wondered why it took so long to catch on. Maybe they just became a lot cheaper/smaller.

#12 Frankbullitt

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 11:14

Not sure if 3D printers will ever be able to print Carbon Fiber, as it is a weave and then has to be cooked.

In saying that though, I read an article on James Allens site that said in years to come, CB wont be used for the cars, it will be these new age plastics etc.

It's an interesting concept though, I could see it being more useful for wind tunnels models rather than actual cars.

#13 learningtobelost

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 11:17

I've found the 3d printing craze a bit funny, because I saw one at the Minardi factory a decade ago. That was stereolithography a stereolithography machine which might be a bit different but I have wondered why it took so long to catch on. Maybe they just became a lot cheaper/smaller.


You're quite correct. Stereolithography has been around for decades and has been used for extensively for rapid prototyping in industry. The increase in public interest in this and other 3d printing technologies is largely due to open source domestic 3D printing projects like RepRap making basic machines affordable within the context of hobbyists / schools etc.

Edit... Also, the intertubes tends to spread geeky tech like wildfire! I should point out that RepRap and other cheaper machines don't use the same process, stereolithograhy uses a photographic process to cure the plastic being printed, whereas RepRap and its ilk use extruded materials and a heated nozzle. :)

Edited by learningtobelost, 06 April 2013 - 11:22.


#14 krapmeister

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 11:23

I seem to recall reading something perhaps early last season where RBR have a couple of rapid prototyping machines in the team trucks at each GP (I guess at testing and the european races at least). Obvious advantages in being able to produce parts at the track rather than needing to have them transported from the factory.

I think the most obvious example of how rapid prototyping has been used to great effect in F1 in recent years is to compare for example the front/rear wings of current F1 cars with those 10-15yrs ago.

And it is now possible to produce metal components using rapid prototyping technology - direct metal laser sintering. Metal 'powder' is fused together via laser much in the same fashion as conventional laser sintering but produces metal objects with strength properties supposedly superior to casting for example. So perhaps engine components such as pistons produced via rapid prototyping isn't all that far away...

#15 TheWilliamzer

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 12:25

RedBull already use it to create the template of the wind tunnel model.

#16 DKMoto

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 13:09

I dont think you understand what 3d printing really is.

You cant just design something and say "i want it made out of titanium or carbon fiber"

3d Printing just makes the item layer by layer, like applying layers of glue.

Its excellent for one off pieces and not mass manufactured but the range of materials that you can use is limited.

Its been strictly kept to "pvc/plastic".

There are some that can build using steel (Direct Metal Selective Laser Melting but they are limited to small sizes.

If you really want a good 3d Printer, use NASA's. I believe they are one of handful of companies on earth who can actually use different materials to stack different layers in one process.

Right now 3d is just used to make prototypes, maybe in 10-20 years when tech changes and 3d printing becomes cheap enough and advanced enough where you can mix different materials then you can truly build something. But now its not being used this way, its being used as a gimmick or just making one off plastic pieces.

Edited by DKMoto, 06 April 2013 - 13:11.


#17 saudoso

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 13:39

Not exactly...

I've been doing it for more than 10 years and the technology I use does patterns for investment casting. Mostly jewelry in my case but I did a lot of trial parts for the 6 speed stick in the VW TD Amarok truck and a bunch of turbo rotors during early development.

There are a lot of technologies around, suitable to many applications. It's not new stuff it's just making to main stream media outlets because it might actually land at the average people's home in a forseable future.

But anyway, it's far from easy to operate as a color laser printer, involves a lot of temperamental hardware and messy post processing.

#18 MirNyet

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 13:54

Printing of the moulds used to lay the carbon fibre out on would be the most obvious thing that springs to mind, however, would the printing material be able to withstand the heat used when the fibre is cooked?

#19 MichaelPM

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 14:05

There's different categories of printers (additive manufacturing/rapid prototyping) which tends to confuse people who first discover them.

PLA/ABS plastics is entry level extrusion of plastics to build layers which have a relatively low resolution but it's the cheapest setup and materials. http://www.thingiverse.com/ caters to these types and you can see examples of quality which is dependent upon how accurate your machine is, most being hobbyist self builds.
Resin based printing where each layer of material is applied and then the object's imprint for each specific layer is activated. The object can then be used for making castings to be produced in another material. This is the oldest and most useful printing for engineers so far.
Sintering of metals, glass and ceramics is the highest industrial level, last I knew. Metal sintered objects are very brittle after printing and then have to go through further processes to plate it to add strength. Still not ideal for printing engine parts.

Perhaps Lockheed Martin or other such companies have better processes already but it of course would be far away from being cheap enough for industrial use yet. It's mostly hype for the possibilities rather than the practicalities which puts these processes into the public light now.
There is promising research into plastics infused with magnetic and conductive properties which would make the PLA/ABS level very attractive to printing full working electrical units and circuit boards without any need for assembly. They already offer support materials to be printed between objects which can later be dissolved away, so you could print the a toy car with the axle in place which is then fully functional.

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#20 Scotracer

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 15:39

They will already rapid prototype parts for wind tunnel testing but for actual use? Probably not.

I work in the auto industry and we use rapid prototypes for package checks or low-impact testing (such as rigs with static parts) but nothing else as they just aren't durable.



#21 Charles E Taylor

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 20:08

Additive Layer Manufacturing.


Endless Possibilities.......




More Here



You will see much more of this technology very very soon.




Charlie


#22 JRizzle86

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 20:38

Rapid manufacturing has been around for quite a while it's just the news outlets got interested when people said they could print a gun. It's best application in f1 is wind tunnel components that can be easily scaled down in CAD and then retro-fitted to a model. Actual parts on a race car not sure if they do but considering the different types of layer manufacturing including metal types I wouldn't be surprised especially with regard to aero pieces and non load bearing components.

#23 tomspar

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Posted 06 April 2013 - 22:44

TV show recently aired here, showing "how do they do it - build an F1 car". The team built a car front end out of SLA printed parts and wood to test fit and driver accessibility. It was cheaper and faster to do it before committing to carbon fiber. I am sure every team has one, whether actual car parts are made from it is another question.

#24 stanga

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 07:12

I thought additive manufacturing had promise as you can effectively 'machine' parts that don't include any non-structural elements. It's therefore produces parts that are much lighter.

#25 Bloggsworth

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 08:41

The very first "3D printing" I ever used was exactly that; one drew up a 3D model and the software deconstructed it into paper thicknesses, adding a pair of holes in each layer, these were cut out and stacked on 2 pegs thus building up your model as a solid block of paper ( which you could glue together if you wanted to).

An acquaintance, aware that agencies charged by time for the models when the "plastic/resin" became available, designed several prototypes and put each model inside the next one up in size (each pass took the same time regardless of whether it made anything or not); he thought he'd saved himself a fortune, but when he got the prototypes back, he found that, rather like those cute Japanese ivory balls, he couldn't get some of the inside ones out!

#26 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 11:18

Hey guys,
I'm studying at an art academy (course is advertising), so not really anything F1 related, you would say, especially not technical. But in one class, called Open Design, we discussed the future of 3D printers and open design. There are architects 'printing' houses now. Not in one piece, but piece by piece.

I'm wondering, what if F1 cars, pieces of it, can be printed? What would be the impact? Could 'parts' be modelled during practise and new, adjusted parts, printed inside of the paddock? Can 3D printers print carbon fibre?

I'm really curious.


II love how a lot of people outside engineering are only just getting exposure to this technology as if it was just invented, Ive been using it for about 15 years in product design. Rapid prototyping has actually been widely used in F1 for many years already. Primarily it was for testing aerodynamic parts on scale models but RP parts have made there way onto the cars since RP materials got stronger and more advanced in recent years. I know teams have been using RP brake ducts for years. I believe this was one of the first uses as the stresses weren't that critical on this part plus the fact the leading edge of the duct can be made sharper and more intricately than with CF manufacturing techniques.

CF can't be RP'd as it is made from long stands of woven fibres that are then coated in a resin that solidfies when heated in a mould in an oven. SLS, SLA and many other RP techniques rely on an individual compound that the entire part is made from through selectively laser sintering a powder of the compound (SLS). There are many compounds to choose from and new ones are being invented all the time but none that I'm aware of can match the strength properties of CF. Some are strong but brittle, some look nice but are weak. It all comes down to material selection and having an engineering understanding of the requirements.

It's also still very expensive so only suitable for prototyping or high cost batch production but it's getting cheaper all the time. But people really need to understand that 3D printing isn't one thing. It's not even one thing when you know what you need it for. And there are still many things it can't or won't feasibly do anytime soon.

Edit: Some great posts here, TC3000, MichaelPM, :up:

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 07 April 2013 - 11:33.