98 replies to this topic

[BackOnTop]

YallaF1- Not Normal that half of drivers need to Pay!!

Less than a month ago, the FIA’s headline shy president Jean Todt seemed to stay away from the issue of cost cutting in Formula 1, but has come out against the fcat that young drivers are having to pay their way into the pinnacle of the sport . Todt spoke of a 30 per cent overall cost reduction as being a reasonable target, expressing alarm at the growing rate of so-called ‘pay drivers’ on the grid.

“It is not normal that half of the drivers need to pay,” he said. ”Formula 1 is the pinnacle of motor sport and so I think it’s not right that drivers need to raise so much money just so they can be there.”


*Below is the list of 2013 drivers and their status in Formula 1. Pay drivers are not a problem... but it will become a problem if 'future world champions & race winners' can't find a seat due to money.
The seasons of 2012 & 2013 isn't that bad as the title suggest, and generally have a good mix of champions, race winners, podium finishers, youth and rookies !!

01 Sebastian Vettel- World Champion
02 Kimi Räikkönen - World Champion
03 Mark Webber- Race Winner
04 Lewis Hamilton- World Champion
05 Felipe Massa- Race Winner

06 Fernando Alonso- World Champion
07 Nico Rosberg- Race Winner
08 Romain Grosjean- Multiple Podium
09 Adrian Sutil- Sponsor backup because of Talent
10 Paul di Resta- Status N/A

11 Nico Hulkenberg- Sponsor Backup because of Talent
12 Sergio Perez- Multiple Podium & Mclaren Salaried
13 Jenson Button- World Champion
14 Jean-Eric Vergne- Team/RedBull Sponsored
15 Valtteri Bottas- Team/Williams contracted

16 Esteban Gutierrez- Pay/Sponsored
17 Jules Bianchi- Team/Ferrari Sponsored
18 Charles Pic- Pay/Sponsored
19 Giedo van der Garde- Pay/Sponsored
20 Max Chilton- Pay/Sponsored
21 Daniel Ricciardo - Team/RedBull Sponsored
22 Pastor Maldonado- Race Winner/Sponsored

Note- No idea about Paul Di Resta. Overall, that's one hell of a talented grid... F1 golden era as far as driver talent is concerned, both in 2012 which had 6 Champions on the grid and 2013... which has Mark Webber as the oldest driver. Not bad.

[yoyogetfunky]

YallaF1- Not Normal that half of drivers need to Pay!!

Less than a month ago, the FIA’s headline shy president Jean Todt seemed to stay away from the issue of cost cutting in Formula 1, but has come out against the fcat that young drivers are having to pay their way into the pinnacle of the sport . Todt spoke of a 30 per cent overall cost reduction as being a reasonable target, expressing alarm at the growing rate of so-called ‘pay drivers’ on the grid.

“It is not normal that half of the drivers need to pay,” he said. ”Formula 1 is the pinnacle of motor sport and so I think it’s not right that drivers need to raise so much money just so they can be there.”


*Below is the list of 2013 drivers and their status in Formula 1. Pay drivers are not a problem... but it will become a problem if 'future world champions & race winners' can't find a seat due to money.
The seasons of 2012 & 2013 isn't that bad as the title suggest, and generally have a good mix of champions, race winners, podium finishers, youth and rookies !!

01 Sebastian Vettel- World Champion
02 Kimi Räikkönen - World Champion
03 Mark Webber- Race Winner
04 Lewis Hamilton- World Champion
05 Felipe Massa- Race Winner

06 Fernando Alonso- World Champion
07 Nico Rosberg- Race Winner
08 Romain Grosjean- Multiple Podium
09 Adrian Sutil- Sponsor backup because of Talent
10 Paul di Resta- Status N/A

11 Nico Hulkenberg- Sponsor Backup because of Talent
12 Sergio Perez- Multiple Podium & Mclaren Salaried
13 Jenson Button- World Champion
14 Jean-Eric Vergne- Team/RedBull Sponsored
15 Valtteri Bottas- Team/Williams contracted

16 Esteban Gutierrez- Pay/Sponsored
17 Jules Bianchi- Team/Ferrari Sponsored
18 Charles Pic- Pay/Sponsored
19 Giedo van der Garde- Pay/Sponsored
20 Max Chilton- Pay/Sponsored
21 Daniel Ricciardo - Team/RedBull Sponsored
22 Pastor Maldonado- Race Winner/Sponsored

Note- No idea about Paul Di Resta. Overall, that's one hell of a talented grid... F1 golden era as far as driver talent is concerned, both in 2012 which had 6 Champions on the grid and 2013... which has Mark Webber as the oldest driver. Not bad.

Anyone who calls todays hugely technically restricted and race scripted, banned to race for the flag if the sc car is in the last lap - the pinnacle of motorsport, shouldnt be trusted, period.

[Alexis*27]

I think there's a big difference between a driver paying the team to drive and a sponsor paying the team, along with paying the driver's salary.

I don't see any issues with a driver earning £100,000 a year, but the cheque has Acme on it instead of Williams.

[Prost1997T]

The team still isn't paying the driver though, they're just bringing their personal sponsor along for the ride (like Sutil does in F1, or Simona de Silvestro in Indycar).

Why shouldn't the teams take care of sponsorship themselves? Doesn't F1 have enough viewers? Are the owners not wealthy enough yet?

Edited by Prost1997T, 10 April 2013 - 11:14.

[One]

YallaF1- Not Normal that half of drivers need to Pay!!

Less than a month ago, the FIA’s headline shy president Jean Todt seemed to stay away from the issue of cost cutting in Formula 1, but has come out against the fcat that young drivers are having to pay their way into the pinnacle of the sport . Todt spoke of a 30 per cent overall cost reduction as being a reasonable target, expressing alarm at the growing rate of so-called ‘pay drivers’ on the grid.

“It is not normal that half of the drivers need to pay,” he said. ”Formula 1 is the pinnacle of motor sport and so I think it’s not right that drivers need to raise so much money just so they can be there.”


*Below is the list of 2013 drivers and their status in Formula 1. Pay drivers are not a problem... but it will become a problem if 'future world champions & race winners' can't find a seat due to money

01 Sebastian Vettel
02 Kimi Räikkönen
03 Mark Webber
04 Lewis Hamilton
05 Felipe Massa

06 Fernando Alonso
07 Nico Rosberg
08 Romain Grosjean
09 Adrian Sutil- PAY
10 Paul di Resta- Status N/A

11 Nico Hulkenberg- PAY
12 Sergio Perez
13 Jenson Button
14 Jean-Eric Vergne- PAY
15 Valtteri Bottas- Team/Williams contracted

16 Esteban Gutierrez- PAY
17 Jules Bianchi- PAY
18 Charles Pic- PAY
19 Giedo van der Garde- PAY
20 Max Chilton- PAY
21 Daniel Ricciardo PAY
22 Pastor Maldonado- PAY

FIA is right to make this statement.

[Ross Stonefeld]

How is Hulkenberg a pay driver?

[Nemo1965]

Well, monsieur Todt is in the right position to change the problem he adresses himself. He is the boss of the FIA, no?

I don't think that there ever will be a F1 with drivers that don't need to bring sponsorship. But the current F1 rules - and the constant changing of the lot - means that every year millions of dollars are essentially destructed. Meaning: half a year old F1 cars, in perfect working order, are shelfed because a. the rules are constantly changed, therefore the car is nog eligble for F1 any more. b. you can't buy and run the car, because the rules prohibit it (you have to construct your own car) and c. teams are not allowed to have a third car running for some races.

However dangerous and sometimes amateurish the '70's were: in those days drivers with a lot of talent but little money could make a debut in F1 with an older model of a top-car. Gilles Villeneuve? Debuted at Silverstone in a year old McLaren, which landed him a contract with Ferrari. Patrick Tambay? Dito. John Miles? Led the South African Grand Prix in a rent-a-lotus. Stirling Moss? Won one of his most famous wins in Monaco in a bought Lotus, run by private team-owner Rob Walker.

Just imagine: Villeneuve's debut or Moss win in Monaco would have been impossible nowadays... that is destruction of talent and capital. I am sure that in the seventies people like Valentinon Rossi or Sebastian Loeb would already have debuted in a F1 race...

And yes, yes, I know there all kinds of problems with customercars and third cars... But where there's a will, there is a way...

[BackOnTop]

01 Sebastian Vettel
02 Kimi Räikkönen
03 Mark Webber
04 Lewis Hamilton
05 Felipe Massa

06 Fernando Alonso
07 Nico Rosberg
08 Romain Grosjean
09 Adrian Sutil- PAY
10 Paul di Resta- Status N/A

11 Nico Hulkenberg- PAY
12 Sergio Perez
13 Jenson Button
14 Jean-Eric Vergne- PAY
15 Valtteri Bottas- Team/Williams contracted

16 Esteban Gutierrez- PAY
17 Jules Bianchi- PAY
18 Charles Pic- PAY
19 Giedo van der Garde- PAY
20 Max Chilton- PAY
21 Daniel Ricciardo PAY
22 Pastor Maldonado- PAY

FIA is right to make this statement.

09 Adrian Sutil- PAY : Not PAY.... Got Force India seat on Merit due to his performance in testing 'shoot out'. Went on to prove himself further in Melbourne 2013. Status of PAY has changed to SPONSORED because of Talent.

11 Nico Hulkenberg- PAY: Not PAY.... and is under salary with Sauber, who grabbed him from Force India due to his Performances in 2012 to become their LEAD DRIVER. Status of PAY has changed to Salaried/Lead Driver.

17 Jules Bianchi- PAY: Not PAY... is only present on the grid because Ferrari think he is talented enough to be one of their drivers in the future. He got money to Force India, but they didn't chose him. Ferrari didn't want their talent to be in the wilderness for 2013... so have him installed at Marussia with benefit promises. Status of PAY has changed to FERRARI-Backed DRIVER.

Edited by BackOnTop, 10 April 2013 - 11:30.

[BackOnTop]

Ferrari backed Jules Bianchi (people mistaking that as PAY):

2013- After narrowly missing out on race seat with Force India, lands a last-minute, pre-season deal to make his competitive F1 debut with Marussia.
2012- Reserve driver for Force India F1 team. Second overall in Formula Renault 3.5 series, with three wins, eight podiums, five poles and seven fastest laps.
2011- Finishes third for the second year in succession in GP2 with ART, with one pole and six podiums. Becomes a member of the Ferrari Driver Academy and appears for the team in F1 young driver test in Abu Dhabi.
2010- Moves up to GP2 with ART and finishes third overall after three poles, four podiums and one fastest lap. Gets first F1 test outing with Ferrari.
2009- Wins the F3 Euroseries with ART team, with six poles, nine victories, 12 podiums and seven fastest laps.
2008- Third in the F3 Euroseries with ART team, taking two poles, two wins, seven podiums and one fastest laps. Also wins prestigious F3 Masters event in Zolder.
2007- Moves into single seaters as reigning French karting champion and wins Formula Renault 2.0 series at first attempt, with five poles, five victories, 11 podiums and 10 fastest laps from 13 races.

Edited by BackOnTop, 10 April 2013 - 11:39.

[seahawk]

But:

Vettel - Pay
Alonso - Pay

[SophieB]

Even setting aside the usual problem of defining what exactly makes or doesn't make someone a 'pay driver', you can't just take a look at the current grid, point to a bunch of drivers who still get paid a salary by the team and conclude there isn't a problem. You cited Alonso and Hamilton as evidence that the system sort of works but both grew up in families without a lot of money. I am not convinced either driver would be able to raise the cash to progress to F1 if they were just starting out now.

[Ross Stonefeld]

But:

Vettel - Pay
Alonso - Pay

Wtf?

[One]

Wtf?

I did not like this category 'Sponsored'.

[trogggy]

14 Jean-Eric Vergne- PAY
21 Daniel Ricciardo PAY

I don't get it.

Edited by trogggy, 10 April 2013 - 12:16.

[One]

14 Jean-Eric Vergne- Team/RedBull Sponsored
21 Daniel Ricciardo - Team/RedBull Sponsored

As I noted above, I changed sponsored into pay because I did not like this third category sponsored when we are discussing pay- or not pay driver.
If it is confusion, then this definition of pay driver has a short coming. I should like to listen to you.

[Sakae]

Well, monsieur Todt is in the right position to change the problem he adresses himself. He is the boss of the FIA, no?

I don't think that there ever will be a F1 with drivers that don't need to bring sponsorship. But the current F1 rules - and the constant changing of the lot - means that every year millions of dollars are essentially destructed. Meaning: half a year old F1 cars, in perfect working order, are shelfed because a. the rules are constantly changed, therefore the car is nog eligble for F1 any more. b. you can't buy and run the car, because the rules prohibit it (you have to construct your own car) and c. teams are not allowed to have a third car running for some races.

However dangerous and sometimes amateurish the '70's were: in those days drivers with a lot of talent but little money could make a debut in F1 with an older model of a top-car. Gilles Villeneuve? Debuted at Silverstone in a year old McLaren, which landed him a contract with Ferrari. Patrick Tambay? Dito. John Miles? Led the South African Grand Prix in a rent-a-lotus. Stirling Moss? Won one of his most famous wins in Monaco in a bought Lotus, run by private team-owner Rob Walker.

Just imagine: Villeneuve's debut or Moss win in Monaco would have been impossible nowadays... that is destruction of talent and capital. I am sure that in the seventies people like Valentinon Rossi or Sebastian Loeb would already have debuted in a F1 race...

And yes, yes, I know there all kinds of problems with customercars and third cars... But where there's a will, there is a way...

I usually like JT, but I do not agree with him this time around. Reducing spending by 30% (number came up in an interview with him) is not going to solve what I perceive series of not well defined problems. Pay drivers is symptom of direction CVC has taken this circus for some time, and to preserve F1 identity will take little more than just cutting on technology and resources, while introducing new gimmicks. (Just a thought).

Edited by Sakae, 10 April 2013 - 12:39.

[ForeverF1]

I think the difference between pay and sponsored driver has become a conundrum. I see it as a 'pay' driver has no backing (sponsorship) and personally pays for his/her seat due to the size of his/her wallet, whereas, a 'sponsored' driver is given funds due to his/her proficiency.

[Sakae]

Wiki

Pay driver
A pay driver is a driver for a professional auto racing team who, instead of being paid by their car owner, drives for free and brings with him either personal sponsorship or personal or family funding to finance the team's operations. This may be done to gain on-track experience or to live the lifestyle of a driver in a particular series when one's talent or credentials do not merit a paying ride. It is sometimes called a ride buyer or in sports car series a gentleman driver.

[ForeverF1]

Wiki

Pay driver
A pay driver is a driver for a professional auto racing team who, instead of being paid by their car owner, drives for free and brings with him either personal sponsorship or personal or family funding to finance the team's operations. This may be done to gain on-track experience or to live the lifestyle of a driver in a particular series when one's talent or credentials do not merit a paying ride. It is sometimes called a ride buyer or in sports car series a gentleman driver.

Therein lies the conundrum.

[jjcale]

I think the difference between pay and sponsored driver has become a conundrum. I see it as a 'pay' driver has no backing (sponsorship) and personally pays for his/her seat due to the size of his/her wallet, whereas, a 'sponsored' driver is given funds due to his/her proficiency.

But no driver has their own wallet, these days... and probably MC's dad think's he's proficient... that is no different from, say, NH at Sauber - or to pick an absurd example FA at Ferrari

What is different is we dont rate MC's talent and his dad is a relative... but what about long term sponsors...what about the Merc drivers? on some levels it is no different from the well regarded "sponsored" drivers.... in a way they are all there because of talent.

Who are we say that if it were only down to talent any of them would be on the grid.... there are probably 24 more talented lads in India who with the right opportunities could have been F1 drivers...

Id rather we call a spade a spade... lets say MC is not talented enough to be there ... lets say the teams are now too broke to employ the drivers they would prefer.... rather than argue over so called "pay drivers".

[Ross Stonefeld]

How is that a conundrum? About the only guy who straddles the line is Maldonado because he has results and a sponsor not due to market forces.

Any team that could, would hire Fernando Alonso. The Santander money is just a bonus.

[ForeverF1]

How is that a conundrum?
Any team that could, would hire Fernando Alonso. The Santander money is just a bonus.

Definition of CONUNDRUM
1: a riddle whose answer is or involves a pun
2a : a question or problem having only a conjectural answer
b : an intricate and difficult problem

[One]

How is that a conundrum? About the only guy who straddles the line is Maldonado because he has results and a sponsor not due to market forces.

Any team that could, would hire Fernando Alonso. The Santander money is just a bonus.

Thanx for this excellent demonstration of Conundrum!

[Ross Stonefeld]

Definition of CONUNDRUM
1: a riddle whose answer is or involves a pun
2a : a question or problem having only a conjectural answer
b : an intricate and difficult problem

Straightforward strikes me as the opposite of intricate or difficult

[ForeverF1]

Straightforward strikes me as the opposite of intricate or difficult

Like, when is a pay driver not a pay driver?
1. The humorous use of a word or phrase so as to emphasize or suggest its different meanings or applications, or the use of words that are alike or nearly alike in sound but different in meaning; a play on words.

[bub]

I'm not sure if it's normal or not but I don't like it. The fact of the matter is a lot of the drivers need to bring money/sponsorship. It's not great for something known as the pinnacle of Motorsport if it's not necessarily the most talented drivers who end up competing there, but the ones who can attain sponsorship etc. There will be some excellent drivers who can't get the funding and never make it to F1 and there will be some less able drivers who get a seat because they can bring money, which is a shame.

[Sakae]

Therein lies the conundrum.

I am not expert on English language, but perhaps difference between a Pay-driver and Not Pay-driver (?hmm), could be detected whether a team has him actually on payroll, and pays him after each race (bonus, regular base wage, etc.) next to driver's other incomes from his sponsors. Moreover, in some case, a non pay-driver might not receive any remuneration from the team, but at the same time doesn't has to support team, whereas inversely, a Pay-driver has to.

That's my current understanding - hoping for not being wrong.

[trogggy]

As I noted above, I changed sponsored into pay because I did not like this third category sponsored when we are discussing pay- or not pay driver.
If it is confusion, then this definition of pay driver has a short coming. I should like to listen to you.

Simple question then:
Are Veregne and Ricciardo there because they have money or because they have talent?

If it's the latter then they're not a pay driver by any but the most obtuse definition.
You can apply that to any driver - sometimes the answer will be clear cut (eg FA, NH and imo the 2 above), sometimes it will be 'a bit of both.'

Edited by trogggy, 10 April 2013 - 13:58.

[pingu666]

veregne and ricciardo are there because they are red bull drivers, so abit of a mix of talent, and limited selection/production line.

grosjean also brings money with total?
and im expecting perez to bring in sponsors too...

real question is why sponsors arent coming to teams indepently, (guess they dont see return on investment or costs too much? )

and why a fair % of those that do come to f1, have a link up with a driver

[Misk]

If Verge and Ricciardo are pay rivers, then by that logic so is Vettel, and arguably so was Hamilton when he was at McLaren.

Edited by Misk, 10 April 2013 - 15:33.

[charly0418]

Every driver in the grid has enough credentials to justify their seat in F1. Obviosuly, some have less than some inactives like Kobayashi and Kovalainen, but as long as there's decent success in the drivers career to justify the F1 seat we really can't complain.

[One]

Simple question then:
Are Veregne and Ricciardo there because they have money or because they have talent?

If it's the latter then they're not a pay driver by any but the most obtuse definition.
You can apply that to any driver - sometimes the answer will be clear cut (eg FA, NH and imo the 2 above), sometimes it will be 'a bit of both.'

Been a bit answered in the post in between, but if I may add my words...

I avoid to bold Alonso even if he has huge banker's backing, as he is already multi WDC and he does not earn such confusion. The same goes to Vettel, or Lewis, in some degree been helped by the team owners to raise their game truly big time.

So it is hugely strange. They bring money into team, and they got paid by the team. But true 'talent' should be that no sponsor backing and fully paid millions by and from team's own managements.
Well now who are those? Actually for now, I have no idea. Kimi? he has got sponsors as well. Lewis? also.

[trogggy]

Been a bit answered in the post in between, but if I may add my words...

I avoid to bold Alonso even if he has huge banker's backing, as he is already multi WDC and he does not earn such confusion. The same goes to Vettel, or Lewis, in some degree been helped by the team owners to raise their game truly big time.

So it is hugely strange. They bring money into team, and they got paid by the team. But true 'talent' should be that no sponsor backing and fully paid millions by and from team's own managements.
Well now who are those? Actually for now, I have no idea. Kimi? he has got sponsors as well. Lewis? also.

There's your problem.
There's no reason that should be true.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Uhm, just about every other sport manages it.

[krea]

Never really understood the problem. I mean no driver will get the big sponsors for nothing, they are not wasting money but a driver is an investment for the future for those companies.

[trogggy]

Uhm, just about every other sport manages it.

Manages it?
What do you mean? Is it a bad thing that companies want to be associated with Fernando Alonso or Lewis Hamilton?
Is it unnatural somehow that they should want to put their name on a driver's car?
I'm genuinely struggling to understand what your point is - the association is a natural one.

[Ross Stonefeld]

His point that drivers shouldnt have to bring money.

[muramasa]

maybe nowadays there's less chance that drivers like Fisi, Trulli, Rubens, Heidfeld etc emerge and jump shipping team to team and get chances to prove how good (or not super) they are.

in that sense it's certainly a negative point.

among current drivers, Kobayashi and Heikki fall into that category, except Kobayashi imo hasnt yet got enough chance he deserves. Maybe Webber and Massa can be put into Rubens/Fisi category too tho...but they are quite good drivers if not as good as Seb/Alonso etc.

[trogggy]

His point that drivers shouldnt have to bring money.

My point is that them bringing money - in the sense that they bring sponsors with them - doesn't mean that they have to bring money.
Anyone who thinks Ferrari wouldn't want Alonso without Santander, for example, is certifiable, but we still hear the 'pay driver' comments with depressing regularity.

That's why the lists of who brings money are meaningless unless you're putting together a list of who definitely isn't a 'pay-driver' - they don't tell you who is.
And it's why your 'other sports seem to manage' in response to me doesn't make sense.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Well you should read my previous posts where I say Fernando isn't a pay driver. But there shouldn't be any pay drivers in the top line of racing. It should be able to raise its own money independently.

[SophieB]

It is all a considerable problem if, as it seems is the case, there is a trend of rising costs at the same time as the amount of overall corporate sponsorship falls, leaving teams increasingly reliant on well-funded drivers to help balance their books directly. As opposed to the older model of hiring the best available drivers and having faith that their talent and ability would generate success and excitement and so in turn attract sponsors.

Now if the cost of racing at the junior level was such that a large pool of talented youngsters could take part, this wouldn't be so much of a problem because the norm would be for the most promising drivers to attract corporate backing in the first place. But it doesn't work like that, does it? There's less money knocking around companies to be supporting drivers too, making it increasingly look like the talent pool feeding F1 will continue to shrink until it is dominated by young drivers who only get their start in the first place because their parents are very wealthy.

My worry is in a few years we'll be looking at a grid full of trust fund kids who are all okay drivers but not brilliant, which will further damage the sport as the truly great drivers get ever fewer and further between, leading sponsorship to dry up further and we get into a bit of a vicious circle.

Edited by SophieB, 10 April 2013 - 17:21.

[ForeverF1]

Well you should read my previous posts where I say Fernando isn't a pay driver. But there shouldn't be any pay drivers in the top line of racing. It should be able to raise its own money independently.

Which, comes right back to my definition of a 'pay driver' pre '60s it might be.

[Hayden1]

01 Sebastian Vettel
02 Kimi Räikkönen
03 Mark Webber
04 Lewis Hamilton
05 Felipe Massa

06 Fernando Alonso
07 Nico Rosberg
08 Romain Grosjean/sponsored by TOTAL
09 Adrian Sutil- PAY
10 Paul di Resta- Status N/A

11 Nico Hulkenberg- N/A
12 Sergio Perez/ thanks to future telemex sponsorship - read ''sponsored''
13 Jenson Button
14 Jean-Eric Vergne- sponsored
15 Valtteri Bottas- sponsored

16 Esteban Gutierrez- PAY
17 Jules Bianchi- PAY
18 Charles Pic- PAY
19 Giedo van der Garde- PAY
20 Max Chilton- PAY
21 Daniel Ricciardo sponsored
22 Pastor Maldonado- PAY

So we got 8 out of 22 who are realy paid

Edited by Hayden1, 10 April 2013 - 18:04.

[trogggy]

Well you should read my previous posts where I say Fernando isn't a pay driver. But there shouldn't be any pay drivers in the top line of racing. It should be able to raise its own money independently.

You should read what I wrote and then realise that your reply to it doesn't make sense. But what should happen doesn't always happen.

[yoyogetfunky]

I still find it a weird statement coming from a guy who built his succeses with Ferrari on getting highly talented drivers, and pay them so much money they stopped being a racing driver and contended with being a number 2 driver.

[Currahee]

Why is paul di Resta N/A on peoples lists?

[Ross Stonefeld]

And why are we still calling Hulkenberg a pay driver?

[Collective]

09 Adrian Sutil- PAY : Not PAY.... Got Force India seat on Merit due to his performance in testing 'shoot out'. Went on to prove himself further in Melbourne 2013. Status of PAY has changed to SPONSORED because of Talent.

That "sponsored because of talent" is a BS status. I mean, Maldonado can argue he earned his sponsorship money, Esteban Gutiérrez won BMW US and Intl in back to back years before he got Telmex on board. If they are paying they are paying, that's it. Would Sutil be there without Medion? If the answer is no then change to PAY.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Gutierrez, Maldonado, Sutil, and even Bottas go into Pay* because they deserve their drives but the money set them apart from other candidates.

[sennafan]

01 Sebastian Vettel
02 Kimi Räikkönen
03 Mark Webber
04 Lewis Hamilton
05 Felipe Massa

06 Fernando Alonso
07 Nico Rosberg
08 Romain Grosjean/sponsored by TOTAL
09 Adrian Sutil- PAY
10 Paul di Resta- Status N/A

11 Nico Hulkenberg- PAY
12 Sergio Perez/ thanks to future telemex sponsorship - read ''sponsored''
13 Jenson Button
14 Jean-Eric Vergne- PAY
15 Valtteri Bottas- PAY

16 Esteban Gutierrez- PAY
17 Jules Bianchi- PAY
18 Charles Pic- PAY
19 Giedo van der Garde- PAY
20 Max Chilton- PAY
21 Daniel Ricciardo PAY
22 Pastor Maldonado- PAY

So we got 8 out of 22 who are realy paid

Bottas is not a pay driver he doesn't bring monney with him. Vergne and Ricciardo are sponsored by red bull so are not pay drivers. Hulkenberg is also not a pay driver