182 replies to this topic

[solochamp07]

From Autosport:

"Qualifying this year is less important. It has been losing importance year after year," Alonso said.

"There were years when it was vital to start from the first row or from pole position, but since Pirelli arrived qualifying has become less and less important.

"In the first two races of the season Kimi [Raikkonen] won pretty easily in Australia starting from seventh and anyone could have won in Malaysia. But there is a tendency for qualifying to become less important."

Interesting comments from Fernando. Is he right? And if so, is this helping or hurting the spectacle overall?

My opinion:

First, I think when Alonso says "qualifying" he is referring specifically to starting position rather than the qual session itself, wherein events and strategies can play key roles in race results which often contradict grid positions.

If the above is correct, then I would agree with him but surprised he didn't name KERS and DRS, along with the Pirellis, as symptoms. Also, I am not sure if Fernando is for or against the [implied] tendency but personally I'm all right with it - for now. I've really enjoyed the last few seasons and this one's shaping up to be rather epic. In my eyes, qualifying remains a 200mph pissing contest and should lose none of its excitement, even if this trend proves to be a reality.

So what do you lot figure?

[SamH123]

The balance with qualifying is just right at the moment IMO
It's important but not crucial

[motorhead]

Comments just reflects his arrogance against his team mate

"Fernando Alonso has laughed off suggestions that Ferrari team-mate Felipe Massa has the upper hand in qualifying now.

The Spanish driver has not qualified ahead of the Brazilian since last year's Abu Dhabi Grand Prix, and if Massa manages the feat again this weekend in China it would be the first time Alonso has been outqualified five times in a row in Formula 1.

Alonso conceded Massa was back at his best now, but made it clear he was far from worried about the situation.

"I haven't slept since Australia. I'm only eating white rice. I'm losing my hair. A huge drama," joked Alonso when asked about his qualifying defeats in a press conference with Spanish reporters.

"After 200 races, it's very surprising that two qualifying sessions matter so much. I'm pleased that it's so important, because it means that when I finish ahead of him it will mean I have done an stratospheric lap.

"We'll see if I can pull that magic here or later this year..."

[ivand911]

He is right about Q losing importance and what is the point to have Q then? I think it is not helping the spectacle at all. It is just fake. Cars and drivers doesn't matter. Pirelli prevail.

[DILLIGAF]

Interesting comments from Fernando. Is he right? And if so, is this helping or hurting the spectacle overall?

It appears simple to me. Raikkonen qualified 7th in Melbourne & won. Webber qualified 5th in Malaysia & should have won. It's all about tyre management & pit strategy so far this season not necessarily grid position.

Edited by DILLIGAF, 12 April 2013 - 09:07.

[JV97]

I think most drivers still go flat out to get pole, but maybe some are driving as hard as a car set mainly for the race will allow, so in essence it's another instance where we aren't seeing the cars on the ragged edge. But as above, it's as much about DRS as it is Pirelli.

1 point for pole should move things along though.

[SCUDmissile]

IMO he is right. It is nowhere near the spectacle it was a couple years ago. Not laying into RBR or Vettel, but their pace has made Q ridiculously predictable, and something of a lot lower importance these days. It is not their fault, the low fuel rule means the quickest car is going to take more often than not. I shudder to think what 2004 would have been like if everyone qualified on the same fuel. The different strategies back in the day added another dimension and made it more interesting.

Of course it is good validation for the quickest teams to have their hard work rewarded making the best car destroying everyone over and over again in Q but a little less exciting for us.

Along with the fact that guys are winning from 5th upwards, and the state of the tyre rules I would agree with Fernando on this level also.

[HPT]

He's right that it's losing its importance. With strategies and the tires it's possible to win from quite a few positions down the grid. Of course starting on pole will still be the most advantageous but it isn't as important as it was before.

[K-One]

Suddenly quali lost it's importance when he is constantly getting beaten by Massa?

It has importance, Lotus' qualied lowly last GP and were stuck behind slower cars during race.

[F.M.]

I think most drivers still go flat out to get pole, but maybe some are driving as hard as a car set mainly for the race will allow, so in essence it's another instance where we aren't seeing the cars on the ragged edge. But as above, it's as much about DRS as it is Pirelli.

1 point for pole should move things along though.

I find 1 point a bit low. Setting up the car for the race would still give you much larger (point) gain. Something like 4-2-1 points for Qualy seems right to me, or 3-1-0.5 points

[ivand911]

Suddenly quali lost it's importance when he is constantly getting beaten by Massa?

It has importance, Lotus' qualied lowly last GP and were stuck behind slower cars during race.

To get stuck behind slower car in Malaysia? Then something was wrong for Lotus or slower cars were not so slow? Two DRS zones?? Long straights? It is one of the best tracks for overtake.

I think most drivers still go flat out to get pole, but maybe some are driving as hard as a car set mainly for the race will allow, so in essence it's another instance where we aren't seeing the cars on the ragged edge. But as above, it's as much about DRS as it is Pirelli.

1 point for pole should move things along though.

Nobody is going flat out in Q now, it will take to much life from the pancakes they drive on. They drive sensible with damage limitations.
It is not bad idea to give some points for Q.

[Cesc]

But...isn´t he right?
He finished ahead of Massa in Australia with a much better race pace and in Sepang he already got te position in first turn and (only speculating, obviously) he would probably have finished in front of him.

So yes, Massa can beat him in quali (it has happened 4 times in a row, which is a lot, but Alonso had been beating him something like about 30-5 before that...but ok, people read data as they like) but I don't think that really matter a lot except by the fact that Massa can disturb him at the begginig of the race as happened in Melbourne.

And after all, Alonso has never been a super qualifier but a superb race driver, so he's relying on that. He had problems with Trulli because of that quali speed of the italian.

Edited by Cesc, 12 April 2013 - 10:16.

[bonjon1979a]

For all his apparent good humor about it all, Alonso does seem to be less comfortable with the current situation - ie Massa outqualifying him. I think he's a little rattled and was much happier when Massa was nowhere. I still think Alonso will eventually come out on top in Qualy, Race positions and points at the end of the season but FA for sure it seems that massa will prove more of a handful for him this season than the previous two.

[fabr68]

I read this as sacrifying race setup for one lap pace is not the best strategy given the current tires.

Edited by fabr68, 12 April 2013 - 10:24.

[Dunc]

IMHO teams should have qualifying tyres and be awarded points for pole position. Right now they are too focussed on tyre strategy and optimizing the number of sets they have available for the race. If each team had exactly the same number on race day they wouldn't have to worry about using up a set on Saturday so, hopefully, we'd have no more drivers sitting in the garage during Q3.

I don't believe for a minute Alonso is happy with Massa outqualifying him but until Felipe starts outracing him too I can't see too many fireworks at Ferrari.

[RockyRaccoon68]

The Alonso haters are really having a field day at the minute, unbelievable. They were strangely silent last season!

He's always said that points are given out on Sunday and right from winter testing we were saying on here that having a good car over a stint is more important than one over a lap. Yes, if you can get both right then you've really struck gold but he isn't saying anything new here!

[Cesc]

It is what I meant.

Back in 2010, the Bridgestones were very hard and predictable and there was no DRS, so in most of the cases, the grid positions were critical, because tires never lost grip dramatically and most drivers did a 1 stop strategy and overtaking was very difficult.

[yoyogetfunky]

Qualifying is losing its appeal too. 3 short sessions where the top guys have one or two runs to get a time, the first two usually way down on cars potential just to get through, or tyre management bullshit. The art of setting up a car for one quick lap over one hour, with room for significant set up changes is gone.

[Cesc]

Qualifying is losing its appeal too. 3 short sessions where the top guys have one or two runs to get a time, the first two usually way down on cars potential just to get through, or tyre management bullshit. The art of setting up a car for one quick lap over one hour, with room for significant set up changes is gone.

Well, back in early 90s, teams had a quali car, with a tunned up engine which offered something like about 100 hp more than the race one, but race fast laps were a lot of seconds slower than quali times......those were old times. Currently is everything more balanced. But I do think that maybe the quali could provide some points, something like 3,2 and 1 for the top three... so it would mean something for the standings.

[Dunc]

Qualifying is losing its appeal too. 3 short sessions where the top guys have one or two runs to get a time, the first two usually way down on cars potential just to get through, or tyre management bullshit. The art of setting up a car for one quick lap over one hour, with room for significant set up changes is gone.

Totally agree. Back in 2009 qualifying could be as exciting as the race.

I prefer the racing now - cars can come from behind and take the chequered flag - which is the most important thing, but, ideally, you want Saturday to be good too.

[yoyogetfunky]

Well, back in early 90s, teams had a quali car, with a tunned up engine which offered something like about 100 hp more than the race one, but race fast laps were a lot of seconds slower than quali times......those were old times. Currently is everything more balanced. But I do think that maybe the quali could provide some points, something like 3,2 and 1 for the top three... so it would mean something for the standings.

Well yes they went very far in putting on special parts for qualifying, but the current rules are way too strict and the given time and allocated tyres (or lack of) makes it a one or two timed lap lottery sometimes. I prefer the old days system.

[gillesthegenius]

According to Fernando, the WDC lost its importance last year. This year its qualifying. What next? F1? I wouldn't, god willing, be surprised.

[F1ultimate]

Alonso is right and I have said it before - several times.

You can easily win a race by making it to Q3 but not contesting for pole and there by saving yourself a set of tires and starting on a fresh set. We have seen this a few times the past seasons when drivers have qualified well away from the 1st and 2nd row but made the podium thanks to not having to nurse tires but blitz past everyone curtsey of having saved plenty of fresh tires but forgoing Q3.

[F.M.]

On a side note, with the current tyres, Qualifying is simply flawed. Pirelli basically tries to bring a race tyre and a qualifying tyre. They openly say so that the soft in China is a qualifying tyre, and not suitable for the race. The fact that the top 10 has to start on the tyre they qualify on is a real flaw no, because they have to pit within 6-10 laps, while all the cars behind can go to something like lap 20. The huge performance drop of the soft also means that they can't open a gap and will thus be stuck in or even behind the midfield after their stop.

I can't get my head around why not all cars have to start on the tyre they set their fastest lap (of their last Q session) on?

[beute]

wasnt it supposed to be less important?

few years ago people were complaining that you cannot gain more than 2-3 positions in a race, no matter the potential pace you've got available.
now you can win from 7th under the right circumstances and people complain yet again.

[DKMoto]

The only reason he's saying that is because he's a horrible Qualifier, He's lucky to have a car thats been the best at starts so he can always jump 3-4 spots at the start.

Alonso can do no wrong, always someone elses fault, never his own, always because other people cheat/lie/steal/get "lucky" and Alonso never put a foot wrong its just that sometimes he gets "unlucky". Oh great Samurai Warrior who is a borderline narcissist, what will be your excuse this year.

[fabr68]

The only reason he's saying that is because he's a horrible Qualifier, He's lucky to have a car thats been the best at starts so he can always jump 3-4 spots at the start.

Alonso can do no wrong, always someone elses fault, never his own, always because other people cheat/lie/steal/get "lucky" and Alonso never put a foot wrong its just that sometimes he gets "unlucky". Oh great Samurai Warrior who is a borderline narcissist, what will be your excuse this year.

Horrible qualifier?



If you take your **** glasses for a second and look at the results you willsee Alonsos comments are supported by race results.

In Australia Vettel qualified on pole and Alonso on 5th and Raikkonen on 7th. Vettel finished third, Alonso second and Kimi won.

Edited by fabr68, 12 April 2013 - 11:56.

[Clatter]

I think he is correct, Q is losing it's importance, and that has to be a good thing. There is still an advantage starting further up the grid, but being on pole shouldn't be an almost guaranteed race win.

I think we are seeing an approach to the race which is closer to the way it was 20+ years ago. Some drivers would concentrate their efforts on getting a good Q, and others would concentrate on getting a good race setup, even if that meant sacrificing a bit in Q.

Edited by Clatter, 12 April 2013 - 11:59.

[noikeee]

The tyre allocation from qualifying to races should be separate - they should be going flat out on Saturday, not saving things for Sunday. This would make qualifying more fun.

However it's perfectly fine that qualifying is a lot less important these days. 5 years ago the pecking order was all but decided after the first lap, and your race pace mattered very little if you were in traffic, that wasn't right. The dynamic is a lot better and a lot more natural now.

[Astro]

I think he is correct, Q is losing it's importance, and that has to be a good thing. There is still an advantage starting further up the grid, but being on pole shouldn't be an almost guaranteed race win.

I think we are seeing an approach to the race which is closer to the way it was 20+ years ago. Some drivers would concentrate their efforts on getting a good Q, and others would concentrate on getting a good race setup, even if that meant sacrificing a bit in Q.

+1

[BenettonB192]

I think it's not as important as it used to but still important. He lost two wdc's by a thin margin. Slightly better qualifying results could have made the difference. Last race he lost front wing which is what can happen when you don't start from the front. These lost points could make the difference again.

[Briz]

I think Alonso really believes qualifying is not so important anymore and he is probably right. Last year he was definitely much faster in the race than in qualifying in relation to other drivers, probably he was already concentrating on race setup more than qualifying and the results were pretty good in my opinion.

However it's hilarious how he likes claiming that ferrari is third or fourth fastest and basing it on qualifying performance, now he let's us know that qualifying doesn't matter and it's all about race pace... hypocrisy much

[Clatter]

I think it's not as important as it used to but still important. He lost two wdc's by a thin margin. Slightly better qualifying results could have made the difference. Last race he lost front wing which is what can happen when you don't start from the front. These lost points could make the difference again.

That sort of thing can happen even if your on pole. There is no guarantee of making a good get away, or of not being hit from behind.

[Fontainebleau]

Well, the FIA has been introducing different rules and items over the last few years to make sure that overtaking was easier and hence that qualifying lost importance. So I cannot understand the logic of those who find Alonso's statement controversial. I supposse, though, that I should not be surprised that some usual suspects are using any opportunity to start yet another bash fest. Seriously, guys, have you thought about what you are going to do when Alonso retires?

[surbjits]

He's right, it's a pile if **** now.

There is no 'showdown' in Q3, anymore.

[fabr68]

I think Alonso really believes qualifying is not so important anymore and he is probably right. Last year he was definitely much faster in the race than in qualifying in relation to other drivers, probably he was already concentrating on race setup more than qualifying and the results were pretty good in my opinion.

However it's hilarious how he likes claiming that ferrari is third or fourth fastest and basing it on qualifying performance, now he let's us know that qualifying doesn't matter and it's all about race pace... hypocrisy much

I read his comments again and he said "this year". He also praised this years car as one of the best.

Looking at his comments without paranoia, I dont think he is far off given the durability of this year tires

[BenettonB192]

That sort of thing can happen even if your on pole. There is no guarantee of making a good get away, or of not being hit from behind.

Sure but common sense tells on average it's a bit safer and easier from the front then in the middle of the pack.

[Atreiu]

Yes, it's not as important. Outright speed is not as important for anyone as long as Pirelli are around.
But I'm sure he would have rather been on pole and not got involved in incidents at Spa, or Suzuka last year. Or even Sepang this year.

[Diderlo]

Yes, qualifying has lost some of its importance, but I don't see anything wrong with that. It still has great impact on Sunday, but driver/car has also good chances to be up there where he/it really belongs after gearbox change or something like that.

And you should also consider the fact that your car also affects whether qualifying has any impact in the race. If you drive Caterham it pretty much doesn't mean anything but if you drive in midpack it can change your whole race. It is all about how big are the differences between drivers. You can do relatively amazing laptimes in a bad car and totally outqualify your teammate, but still not reach the next (much better) car or you can gain 5 places by being just 0.2 seconds faster.

I think that current system is quite good. I would like every car to drive in Q3 though.

[SpaMaster]

This is exactly how it should be. What it means is those who qualified lower are tending to move up in the race and those who qualified have a tendency to move lower in the race. This is the essence of perfect racing. Qualifying pace and race pace should be dead opposites.

[SpaMaster]

I think he is correct, Q is losing it's importance, and that has to be a good thing. There is still an advantage starting further up the grid, but being on pole shouldn't be an almost guaranteed race win.

I think we are seeing an approach to the race which is closer to the way it was 20+ years ago. Some drivers would concentrate their efforts on getting a good Q, and others would concentrate on getting a good race setup, even if that meant sacrificing a bit in Q.

Exactly.

[bourbon]

Yes, it probably is losing importance to Alonso, who tends to take that view of achievements when they are not happening to him. Last season the WDC was not important - driving consistent on the year was the mark of a true champion according to him. He is entitled to his opinion, but in my opnion, that was nonsense.

Now Qualifying is losing importance, he says, but he still pushes like a man with a mission on Saturdays - why is that? Because, in my opinion, he knows the statistics do not back up his statement. His example of Kimi winning from 7th is not the norm - it happens from time to time, but most winners start on pole/front row, not from the mid grid. Initially it was believed that a side effect of the Pirelli's would be a dramatic reduction in the importance of qualifying, but that hasn't evolved.

Edited by bourbon, 12 April 2013 - 14:32.

[Disgrace]

Alonso is right, regardless of convenience of timing.

[Skinnyguy]

He´s right. And I´m glad it´s happening. Pre 2009 quali was 85% of a weekend. Now it´s 35-40%.

[bourbon]

It is about time someone provide a little chart showing wins and start position for the last 3 years. It would already be posted if Alonso was right, but he isn't. If it was so unimportant, teams wouldn't be bothered - they'd just set up for race day. Without even looking I would guess the first 2 rows produced 90% of the winners - proving the ongoing importance of qually. So let's see this list of the overwhelming number of mid grid winners from the last 3 years - could Alonso be right?

[garoidb]

It is about time someone provide a little chart showing wins and start position for the last 3 years. It would already be posted if Alonso was right, but he isn't. If it was so unimportant, teams wouldn't be bothered - they'd just set up for race day. Without even looking I would guess the first 2 rows produced 90% of the winners - proving the ongoing importance of qually. So let's see this list of the overwhelming number of mid grid winners from the last 3 years - could Alonso be right?

Why don't you do it?

[fabr68]

It is about time someone provide a little chart showing wins and start position for the last 3 years. It would already be posted if Alonso was right, but he isn't. If it was so unimportant, teams wouldn't be bothered - they'd just set up for race day. Without even looking I would guess the first 2 rows produced 90% of the winners - proving the ongoing importance of qually. So let's see this list of the overwhelming number of mid grid winners from the last 3 years - could Alonso be right?

"Qualifying this year is less important. It has been losing importance year after year," Alonso said.

Man, those brown glasses are sure blurry.

[Seanspeed]

Alonso doesn't say that qualifying isn't important at all, just that its increasingly becoming less important, which is perfectly true. Each of the past couple years, the discrepancy between qualifying pace and race pace seems to be stretching out more and more.

Whether you like him or not, what he says is right. Sorry bashers.

[garoidb]

He is right about Q losing importance and what is the point to have Q then?

To decide who starts where on the starting grid, of course. There are otherways you could do it, of course. It should never have conveyed such an artificially high advantage as was the case up to recently. This was a byproduct of aerodynamics, and was never the sporting intention. In an ideal world, each car starting the race should have the same opportunity, but this cannot physically be done.

Alonso is correct up to a point. One or two grid places makes much less difference than before, so being marginally outqualified by your team-mate (or anyone else) is not as important as it used to be. More than that would be a concern though.

[Sausage]

Yeah it's still quite important not in the least to avoid incidents, but in the past it was on ridiculous levels at times cause overtaking on track was almost impossible. Now it's a nice balance, except in Monaco where it is still #1 priority. DRS is really the main factor for this trend imho. But really if you want to win on a consistent level you better be up there near the top.