182 replies to this topic

[encircled]

Stronger Qualifying a Priority.

Ferrari's deputy chief designer Simone Resta thinks that it needs to do much better on Saturdays, especially because it is becoming increasingly clear that starting near the front gives drivers a better opportunity to run in clear air and look after their tyres.

"This year I think we have shown a reasonable race pace, and we closed the gap in qualifying [compared to 2012], but we still need to work on that - and it is a priority for us," said Resta, when asked by AUTOSPORT if qualifying form still matters with the new higher degrading tyres.

"I think learning the tyres and also how to treat them is an important factor in that – and concentrating your set-up more to qualifying or more to the race is another factor.

"But I think for us, it is a priority to try and recover performance in qualifying."

[Suntrek]

Any driver other than Raikkonen who speaks his mind in interviews is generally bashed on here, and Alonso is a favorite, so I'm not surprised the least on what direction this thread is heading.

There are plenty of drivers who speak thieir minds. Kimi is one of them.

However, if you are seriously interested in drivers who speak their minds I suggest you google "Webber" and "Hamilton"

Edited by Suntrek, 26 April 2013 - 14:48.

[bourbon]

Stronger Qualifying a Priority.

Ferrari's deputy chief designer Simone Resta thinks that it needs to do much better on Saturdays, especially because it is becoming increasingly clear that starting near the front gives drivers a better opportunity to run in clear air and look after their tyres.

"This year I think we have shown a reasonable race pace, and we closed the gap in qualifying [compared to 2012], but we still need to work on that - and it is a priority for us," said Resta, when asked by AUTOSPORT if qualifying form still matters with the new higher degrading tyres.

"I think learning the tyres and also how to treat them is an important factor in that – and concentrating your set-up more to qualifying or more to the race is another factor.

"But I think for us, it is a priority to try and recover performance in qualifying."

Well that puts that issue to rest. Independent of the importance Qualifying has to Alonso over time - Ferrari, looking to the results, knows better. Top front rows still have the best chance at winning races and that is where they wish to be. They have been doing better so I improving means going for pole. Pretty much supports my earlier contention that Alonso tends to discredit those aspects of racing that he cannot call one of his Aces at any given time.

Oh, is he? Glad we've cleared all that up, then. And there I was worrying that the sport had managed to turn terrifically exciting qualifying sessions into a big old pile of crap where the race winners don't even really bother trying to set the fastest time and the polesitters can get eaten in the race like an elderly, arthritic gazelle brought down by lions. Lucky he's just a nut I suppose, SORRY I mean lucky he just holds an individual perspective that is unique and hard to understand and stuff!

In the midst of your comment, you modified Alonso's statement, just as the poster I was responding to did. He didn't say that POLE was less important, he said "Qualifying" is growing less important year by year. He is still wrong about that, imo. As to pole sitters, they are often eaten by the guy in 2nd or 3rd; occassionally 4th or 5th, but it is rare for cars to sneak up from further behind to "eat up" the pole sitter. Pole sitter's win percentages are still very high, so the idea of pole not being important is equally weak, imo.

For me, Alonso tends to make these types of statements when he is suffering from an intense case of sour grapes and wishes to minimize the importance of some F1 skill that isn't an Ace in his deck at the given time.

Moving on...

Edited by bourbon, 26 April 2013 - 19:54.

[SophieB]

Well that puts that issue to rest. Independent of the importance Qualifying has to Alonso over time - Ferrari, looking to the results, knows better. Top front rows still have the best chance at winning races and that is where they wish to be. They have been doing better so I improving means going for pole. Pretty much supports my earlier contention that Alonso tends to discredit those aspects of racing that he cannot call one of his Aces at any given time.

The two positions, Alonso's opinion about qualifying assuming lesser importance, and the team's statement that they need to get better at it are hardly mutually exclusive. Of course they are going to try and qualify well! They and every team will always go for every possible edge. He said 'less important', not 'worthless'.

In the midst of your comment, you modified Alonso's statement, just as the poster I was responding to did. He didn't say that POLE was less important, he said "Qualifying" is growing less important year by year. He is still wrong about that, imo.

Let's look at his words, shall we?

"Qualifying this year is less important. It has been losing importance year after year. There were years when it was vital to start from the first row or from pole position, but since Pirelli arrived qualifying has become less and less important. In the first two races of the season Kimi [Raikkonen] won pretty easily in Australia starting from seventh and anyone could have won in Malaysia. But there is a tendency for qualifying to become less important."

[Mauseri]

Qualifying is important but you also need race pace to win. That's the way it is and always should be.

The improtance of race pace has increased, because overtaking is easier, and tyres allow different pit stop strategies. You cannot defend anymore without competitive race pace.

Which is good.

The the fastest race drivers start from P1 and P8, P1 driver will most likely win.

I don't see what is the problem, except maybe wrong drivers being up in qualifying who don't have race pace. But that is ok.

[TheThirdTenor1]

I believe Horner also said the same thing in Bahrain. Qualifying is not as important as it used to be.

[LuckyStrike1]

It's less important than it was before but that is a good thing since it was the only thing being important before. Qualifying decided the races.

Now it's less important but not unimportant. Before qualifying was dominant.

[V3TT3L]

http://www.motorspor...ing-mateschitz/

"Today, it's not the fastest driver in the fastest car winning, but the one with the optimum tyre management." Dieter Mateschitz

However, if the optimun tyre management demands starting on pole, pole is important.

[charly0418]

http://www.motorspor...ing-mateschitz/

"Today, it's not the fastest driver in the fastest car winning, but the one with the optimum tyre management." Dieter Mateschitz

However, if the optimun tyre management demands starting on pole, pole is important.

Its all about clean air

[Kingshark]

However, if the optimun tyre management demands starting on pole, pole is important.

3 times out of 4 the pole sitter did not win the race this year.

[encircled]

Webber thinks qualifying much less important now

Webber, 36, has been one of the leading critics of the 'new' formula one, in which Pirelli's heavily degrading control tyres are dominating.

Now, starting position is arguably completely outweighed by race strategy and tyre management.

"There's still a little bit of chess on a Saturday to make sure you're in a good position," Webber continued, "but it's no longer as important as it once was."

Lotus' Kimi Raikkonen has a slightly different view, even though so far in 2013 the Finn has won from seventh on the grid in Australia, and qualified eighth yet finished second in Bahrain.

"The further forward (on the grid) you are," he said, "it helps you to save the tyres, and keeps you away from any (first lap) accidents."

[djparky]

good- not that long ago- qualifying was everything- and the race a generally pointless exercise in 20 odd cars running around till fuel stops because they couldn't pass on the track- now the emphasis is on the race- as it should be

[solochamp07]

Think this deserves a bump today.

Alonso wins the Spanish GP from the third row (unprecedented!), Massa third from P9 and the two cars from the front row fade to near oblivion with Lewis lapped. Do any arguments remain against Alonso's April remarks? There were lots back then.

[Kingshark]

Qualifying is pretty much irrelevant if your name is Fernando Alonso. Last year, the guy was the only one to win a race from 9th and 11th starting position, when no one else won from a starting position lower than the two front rows.

Now today, he from 5th in Barcelona, a circuit where no one else in 16 years has won the race from anywhere other than the front row. Alonso's race-craft and wheel-to-wheel driving ability is second to none. Just look at how he read and owned Hamilton and Raikkonen at the start, brilliant.

I had to take my inner fanboy self out somewhere.

[bourbon]

Think this deserves a bump today.

Alonso wins the Spanish GP from the third row (unprecedented!), Massa third from P9 and the two cars from the front row fade to near oblivion with Lewis lapped. Do any arguments remain against Alonso's April remarks? There were lots back then.

Well if we are going to use 1 circuit to reach conclusions, let's wait till Monaco.

What Alonso said is that Qualifying has been and continues to lose importance. That is simply not true. You gave 3 examples of that. I will give you 20 in the same period of time where that was not the case. Alonso was wrong. Since that time he has remarked on the importance of qualifying, so I reckon he has seen the light. There is no point in defending his statement in April since he has retracted it in May in discussing the importance Ferrari is placing on qualifying pace.

It is an odd year with the tyres - the wild degredation and wear makes racing a bit of a grab bag in any case - which of course led to Alonso's win, and Massa and Raikkonen's podiums - they had good luck with tyre wear. Merc, for example, had an atrocious time with tyres. Should we conclude from that, pole position- indeed, being on the front row- is now absolutely useless?

Edited by bourbon, 13 May 2013 - 05:46.

[ardbeg]

Alonso was wrong

I don't think he ever said that qualifying is not important. "Losing it's importance" simply means it has become less important and that the trend is possibly ongoing. Possibly ongoing means that at the moment of the statement, it was moving in the direction less important. Of course he was right, there has not been so many wins from the pole this year.

[SophieB]

Well if we are going to use 1 circuit to reach conclusions, let's wait till Monaco.

What Alonso said is that Qualifying has been and continues to lose importance. That is simply not true. You gave 3 examples of that. I will give you 20 in the same period of time where that was not the case. Alonso was wrong. Since that time he has remarked on the importance of qualifying, so I reckon he has seen the light. There is no point in defending his statement in April since he has retracted it in May in discussing the importance Ferrari is placing on qualifying pace.

It is an odd year with the tyres - the wild degredation and wear makes racing a bit of a grab bag in any case - which of course led to Alonso's win, and Massa and Raikkonen's podiums - they had good luck with tyre wear. Merc, for example, had an atrocious time with tyres. Should we conclude from that, pole position- indeed, being on the front row- is now absolutely useless?

Sigh. Again, for somebody that keeps accusing others of altering what Fernando Alonso actually said, let's look at his actual words:

"Qualifying this year is less important. It has been losing importance year after year. There were years when it was vital to start from the first row or from pole position, but since Pirelli arrived qualifying has become less and less important. In the first two races of the season Kimi [Raikkonen] won pretty easily in Australia starting from seventh and anyone could have won in Malaysia. But there is a tendency for qualifying to become less important."

See? Not 'qualifying is worthless' or anything similar. He is plainly talking about the diminished importance of a front row start since Pirelli entered the sport. Since that's what he says and all. He never retracted his statement and doesn't need to since he is plainly correct. His team said they wanted to improve their qualifying form. That is not a contradiction. Of course a good qualifying position is still going to most of the time more advantageous than a bad one. If nothing else, the further back you start the more likely you are to make contact at the start.

But you don't need to be on the front row to win a race any more and yes, as yesterday showed, getting that front row lockout is no promise of success.

[Cesc]

Well if we are going to use 1 circuit to reach conclusions, let's wait till Monaco.

What Alonso said is that Qualifying has been and continues to lose importance. That is simply not true. You gave 3 examples of that. I will give you 20 in the same period of time where that was not the case. Alonso was wrong. Since that time he has remarked on the importance of qualifying, so I reckon he has seen the light. There is no point in defending his statement in April since he has retracted it in May in discussing the importance Ferrari is placing on qualifying pace.

It is an odd year with the tyres - the wild degredation and wear makes racing a bit of a grab bag in any case - which of course led to Alonso's win, and Massa and Raikkonen's podiums - they had good luck with tyre wear. Merc, for example, had an atrocious time with tyres. Should we conclude from that, pole position- indeed, being on the front row- is now absolutely useless?

You mention 20 examples, but posted none.

If we could have an average starting position of the race winner for the last 4 or 5 years we would get a clearer poicture about if it is correct or not.

[Shiroo]

it's still important. Imagine Ferrari or Lotus getting PP and having Mercedes behind as a buffer. Within 5 laps he would have 10sec lead over 2nd that would be still Mercedes, and when someone would already overtake the mobile chicane, he would have 15sec advantgae, fresher, in good shape tyres and would still lap faster. So it is important, unless PP and front row is for Mercedes. Then it doesn't matter at all, cause they will be overtaken in few laps (loook how fast hamilton was losing his position).

So it all matters, having Lotus, Ferrari with their superior tyre management (RBR maybe too, but they are eating tyres a bit more than these 2) on front line, and behind them merc would be a disaster for people that were behind the Merc

[bourbon]

You mention 20 examples, but posted none.

The poster claimed that 3 races were won from behind the first 2 rows including this year and last year - which is not accurate, but close enough. Of the 25 races, that leaves 22 - I figure 20 is a safe bet from those won from the front two rows. What do you think?

If we could have an average starting position of the race winner for the last 4 or 5 years we would get a clearer poicture about if it is correct or not.

Alonso already changed his statement. He now says qualifying is important and that is why Ferrari is focusing on it. So there is little point in anyone trying to backup his earlier claim. However, if you would like to do so, by all means, bring on the data. I think it is evident to all that the overwhelming number of races have been won from the front two rows - that is why nobody has provided data to date in this thread. Bottom line is, Qualifying has not lost its importance over the last few years.

If data to the contrary is provided, I'll discuss this further. But now that Alonso has admitted he was wrong, there is no point in rehashing the issue further.

[Goron3]

You mention 20 examples, but posted none.

If we could have an average starting position of the race winner for the last 4 or 5 years we would get a clearer poicture about if it is correct or not.

Not even race winner; the podiums nowadays prove just how much more important race pace and tyre usage are than 1 lap pace.

[SophieB]

Alonso already changed his statement. He now says qualifying is important and that is why Ferrari is focusing on it. So there is little point in anyone trying to backup his earlier claim. However, if you would like to do so, by all means, bring on the data. I think it is evident to all that the overwhelming number of races have been won from the front two rows - that is why nobody has provided data to date in this thread. Bottom line is, Qualifying has not lost its importance over the last few years.

If data to the contrary is provided, I'll discuss this further. But now that Alonso has admitted he was wrong, there is no point in rehashing the issue further.

He hasn't admitted any such thing and he was not, in fact, wrong.

I won't bother rehashing why as you seem determined to look the other way on all that and instead content to go back to doing the debating equivalent of dealing off the bottom of the pack by mispresenting people's words at the same time as accusing other people of doing the same. What is the point of such discussions.

Edited by SophieB, 13 May 2013 - 08:05.

[Fontainebleau]

I would have thought that Alonso had proved his point by winning the Spanish GP starting 5th on the grid; until now, only drivers starting on the first row (and Schumacher once starting from third) had won this particular race.

But maybe that is not enough for some agendas...

[TheThirdTenor1]

Bourbon's comprehension skills are seriously lacking.

[makroncommander]

I think most drivers still go flat out to get pole, but maybe some are driving as hard as a car set mainly for the race will allow, so in essence it's another instance where we aren't seeing the cars on the ragged edge. But as above, it's as much about DRS as it is Pirelli.

1 point for pole should move things along though.

Points for Pole and Fastest lap in the race are good ideas!

[F1 Tor.]

You build the most sophisticated and complex machinery in motor racing and plop it all on tires that last a handful of laps. Makes total sense. I don't even bother with qualifying anymore.

Edited by F1 Tor., 13 May 2013 - 09:58.

[swerved]

Points for Pole and Fastest lap in the race are good ideas!

Teams unanimously rejected the proposal for awarding points for poles last week according to Brundle.

[JRizzle86]

Alonso seems to be proved right but to be fair Mercedes are perhaps an exception when it comes to showing how little quali means performance wise.

[TheThirdTenor1]

We still havn't heard back from Bourbon.

[Skinnyguy]

Points for Pole and Fastest lap in the race are good ideas!

NO. It´s called GP for a reason. You really need someone winning a WDC by pitting the last and posting a lap on new tyres and low fuel to realize it´s a terrible idea? Or everyone from 11th back pointlessly pitting with two laps to go to compete for the FL point?

[r4mses]

Alonso: "Qualifying losing its importance."

if only someone told that to mgp in summer 2012 when they worked on their car

[MikeTekRacing]

if only someone told that to mgp in summer 2012 when they worked on their car

yes, as you can imagine their number one goal on the whiteboards was to build the best qualy car and see how they manage to race it

seriously, even trying to imply the teams don't think they've chosen the best path to building the fastest race day car is strange...

Edited by MikeTekRacing, 13 May 2013 - 22:16.

[scheivlak]

Points for Pole and Fastest lap in the race are good ideas!

"Life is racing, the rest is just waiting"

Getting pole position is quasi-racing. Doing a FL as well. F1 is not a drag race with corners.
Racing is a competition foremost. On track, versus opponents who just like to block you. To me, racing is being fast - and being smart.