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Consecutively outqualifying your teammate -stats and numbers


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#1 mnmracer

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 09:20

What happened to Felipe Massa late last year, only the Brazilian knows, but he seems to have regained his form, and since the United States Grand Prix in Austin, has been outqualifying Fernando Alonso. Although both drivers take it lightly, it is no doubt a boost of convidence for Felipe and topping the time sheets this morning, he seems to be on form to perhaps do what no other driver has yet done: outqualify Fernando Alonso as a team mate 5 consecutive times.

Let's have a look how today's champions and top drivers have faired in regards to being consecutively outqualified by their team mate.

Lewis Hamilton: outqualified 2 times in a row
Of the 'big three', Lewis has the best score in terms of (not) being consecutively outqualified by team mates. All his team mates up to this year -Fernando Alonso, Heikki Kovallainen and Jenson Button- have at some point outqualified Hamilton two races in a row, but never more.

Sebastian Vettel: outqualified 4 times in a row
The driver with the 3rd most amount of pole position in history, 4 races in a row, from the 2010 Spanish Grand Prix to the 2010 Canadian Grand Prix, qualifying specialist Mark Webber had his number in qualifying, but never more.

Fernando Alonso: outqualified 4 times in a row
Having had qualifying aces as Jarno Trulli and Lewis Hamilton as team mates, Fernando still has not been outqualified more than 4 races in a row. From the 2003 European Grand Prix to the 2003 German Grand Prix, Jarno Trulli had his number in qualifying, a feat equaled by Lewis Hamilton from the 2007 Canadian Grand Prix to the 2007 French Grand Prix, and now Felipe Massa, from the 2012 United States Grand Prix. Will this be different tomorrow?

Kimi Räikkönen: outqualified 6 & 5 times in a row
Having taken a 3 year sabbatical from Formula One, I decided to look at Kimi's score before and after his return.
In his first career, it was Felipe Massa who outqualified him 6 times in a row, from the 2008 German Grand Prix to the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix.
Returning to Formula One in 2012, team mate Romain Grosjean set a faster time on Saturday 5 times in a row: from the 2012 Bahrain Grand Prix to the 2012 European Grand Prix.

Mark Webber: outqualified 3 & 9 times in a row
Mark Webber's case in qualifying is a curious one. Known in the paddock as a qualifying ace, prior to 2009 he outqualified his team mates in 75% of all the races. In that time, no one has outqualified him more than 3 times in a row, which Christian Klien did from the 2004 Monaco Grand Prix to the 2004 Canadian Grand Prix.
When he teamed up with Sebastian Vettel, things quickly changed. In their 4 years as team mates, Sebastian Vettel has outqualified Mark Webber in 70% of the cases. Twice, from the 2010 Singapore Grand Prix to the 2011 Spanish Grand Prix, and from the 2011 Hungarian Grand Prix to the 2011 Brazilian Grand Prix, did Sebastian Vettel outqualify Mark Webber 9 times in a row. Even if you leave aside 2011, which some consider to be an off-year for Webber, Vettel was the front-starting Red Bull 8 times from the 2009 Australian Grand Prix to the 2009 British Grand Prix.

Jenson Button: outqualified 9 times in a row
Having had his qualifying duels evened out pretty well from 2003-2009, Lewis Hamilton took his number in qualifying in their times as team mates. From the 2012 Australian Grand Prix to th 2012 German Grand Prix, Lewis Hamilton was 9 times in a row the fastest McLaren on Saturday.

Felipe Massa: outqualified 12 & 21 times in a row
Many speculate the reasons of Felipe's severe two year performance dip, but he seems to be on his way back. In the context of this statistic, Felipe Massa is a curious case. On one hand, he was outqualified 21 times in a row by Fernando Alonso, from the 2011 Indian Grand Prix to the 2012 Abu Dhabu Grand Prix, and even before his dip, teaming up in 2006 with Michael Schumacher, he started behind his team-mate 12 consecutive times. Of all the drivers on the grid, no one has had more world championships in the next garage: 10 (7x Schumacher, 1x Räikkönen, 2x Alonso).
But on the flip-side, Felipe is responsible for having the number of both Räikkönen and (shared) Alonso most times consecutively. Will he take Alonso's number for his own this weekend?

Edited by mnmracer, 13 April 2013 - 16:46.


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#2 NotSoSilentBob

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 11:20

Thrilling

#3 Wander

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 11:55

Who doesn't like statistics?!



#4 Cool Beans

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 12:15

Would be interesting and perhaps more telling to see % of total qualis outperformed by team mate. Consecutive spankings is an interesting but perhaps not as important a statistic IMHO. I'm too lazy to do the math myself but I have a feeling pretty much the same drivers would be at the top of that list too.

#5 fabr68

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 12:21

Great thread.

You should gather more statistical results on the other no-point awarding sessions like Practice 1, 2 and 3. This way we could have driver rankings on results that are disconnected from the championship point system.

Edited by fabr68, 12 April 2013 - 12:22.


#6 mnmracer

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 13:16

Would be interesting and perhaps more telling to see % of total qualis outperformed by team mate. Consecutive spankings is an interesting but perhaps not as important a statistic IMHO. I'm too lazy to do the math myself but I have a feeling pretty much the same drivers would be at the top of that list too.

You ask, we serve :)
Just took on this stat because it was a current event.

I'm not doing all the stats for all the drivers, but let's start with these for their overall career score and median* season score:

Nico Rosberg outqualified his team-mates in 72% of all races; median season score: 78%
Sebastian Vettel outqualified his team-mates in 72% of all races; median season score: 77%.
Fernando Alonso outqualified his team-mates in 74% of all races; median season score: 74%.
Lewis Hamilton outqualified his team-mates in 72% of all races; median season score: 72%.
Mark Webber outqualified his team-mates in 53% of all races; median season score: 74%.
Kimi Räikkonen outqualified his team-mates in 60% of all races; median season score: 67%.
Jenson Button outqualified his team-mates in 43% of all races; median season score: 43%.
Felipe Massa outqualified his team-mates in 38% of all races; median season score: 35%.

The scores for the 'big team mate battles' over the last years (excl. 2013):
Alonso beat Massa in 82% of all races; median score of 79%.
Hamilton beat Button in 75% of all races; median score of 74%.
Vettel beat Webber in 72% of all races; median score of 74%.


*median means in the middle. It takes out extremes, and is the result in the dead center.
For instance, the average of 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+50 is 16.
The median of 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+50 is 4.5.

BTW: kind of funny how Jenson 'balance' Button's average and median scores are in perfect balance ^_^ (in detail: 42.8% and 43.3%)

Edited by mnmracer, 12 April 2013 - 13:22.


#7 Cool Beans

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 13:45

You ask, we serve :)
Just took on this stat because it was a current event.

I'm not doing all the stats for all the drivers, but let's start with these for their overall career score and median* season score:

Nico Rosberg outqualified his team-mates in 72% of all races; median season score: 78%
Sebastian Vettel outqualified his team-mates in 72% of all races; median season score: 77%.
Fernando Alonso outqualified his team-mates in 74% of all races; median season score: 74%.
Lewis Hamilton outqualified his team-mates in 72% of all races; median season score: 72%.
Mark Webber outqualified his team-mates in 53% of all races; median season score: 74%.
Kimi Räikkonen outqualified his team-mates in 60% of all races; median season score: 67%.
Jenson Button outqualified his team-mates in 43% of all races; median season score: 43%.
Felipe Massa outqualified his team-mates in 38% of all races; median season score: 35%.

The scores for the 'big team mate battles' over the last years (excl. 2013):
Alonso beat Massa in 82% of all races; median score of 79%.
Hamilton beat Button in 75% of all races; median score of 74%.
Vettel beat Webber in 72% of all races; median score of 74%.


*median means in the middle. It takes out extremes, and is the result in the dead center.
For instance, the average of 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+50 is 16.
The median of 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+50 is 4.5.

BTW: kind of funny how Jenson 'balance' Button's average and median scores are in perfect balance ^_^ (in detail: 42.8% and 43.3%)

Pretty much what I was expecting, though a little surprised Webber is that high. The last years have seemed like a Vettel show at Red Bull so he must have done much better pre Red Bull than I remembered.

#8 Cool Beans

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 13:47

Great thread.

You should gather more statistical results on the other no-point awarding sessions like Practice 1, 2 and 3. This way we could have driver rankings on results that are disconnected from the championship point system.

Looking at just the championship standings over a long period has the problem that not all drivers are in the best car. Comparing against team mates is interesting and gives you more insight than simply looking at who got pole. Senna in a Marussia would still be a hell of a qualifier, you just wouldn't see it because he's not on pole.


Edit: Or perhaps you were not sarcastically mocking the thread and seriously want statistics from practice sessions.

Edited by Cool Beans, 12 April 2013 - 13:51.


#9 wingwalker

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 16:13

Good thread, thanks :up:

#10 Seanspeed

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 16:16

OP not surprisingly LOVING Alonso not beating Massa in quali right now. :lol:

What a joke.

#11 Boxerevo

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 16:20

21 times in a row is scary,even i can't do this against my ai team mates on legend mode. :smoking:

Massa has a WAY to go. :lol:

Edited by Boxerevo, 12 April 2013 - 16:21.


#12 fisssssi

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 16:21

Felipe Massa:
...
Of all the drivers on the grid, no one has had more world championships in the next garage: 10 (7x Schumacher, 1x Räikkönen, 2x Alonso).


Wow, that's a neat statistic! Can any driver in history beat this?

P.S. Great thread :up:

#13 fabr68

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 16:43

Looking at just the championship standings over a long period has the problem that not all drivers are in the best car. Comparing against team mates is interesting and gives you more insight than simply looking at who got pole. Senna in a Marussia would still be a hell of a qualifier, you just wouldn't see it because he's not on pole.


Edit: Or perhaps you were not sarcastically mocking the thread and seriously want statistics from practice sessions.


perhaps... ;)


#14 Snic

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 17:03

:up: :up: :up:

#15 encircled

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 17:04

I think you forgot JV as another WDC teammate of Massa, which brings the combined titles of his teammates to 11.

#16 reggie

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 22:00

You ask, we serve :)
Just took on this stat because it was a current event.

I'm not doing all the stats for all the drivers, but let's start with these for their overall career score and median* season score:

Nico Rosberg outqualified his team-mates in 72% of all races; median season score: 78%
Sebastian Vettel outqualified his team-mates in 72% of all races; median season score: 77%.
Fernando Alonso outqualified his team-mates in 74% of all races; median season score: 74%.
Lewis Hamilton outqualified his team-mates in 72% of all races; median season score: 72%.
Mark Webber outqualified his team-mates in 53% of all races; median season score: 74%.
Kimi Räikkonen outqualified his team-mates in 60% of all races; median season score: 67%.
Jenson Button outqualified his team-mates in 43% of all races; median season score: 43%.
Felipe Massa outqualified his team-mates in 38% of all races; median season score: 35%.

The scores for the 'big team mate battles' over the last years (excl. 2013):
Alonso beat Massa in 82% of all races; median score of 79%.
Hamilton beat Button in 75% of all races; median score of 74%.
Vettel beat Webber in 72% of all races; median score of 74%.


*median means in the middle. It takes out extremes, and is the result in the dead center.
For instance, the average of 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+50 is 16.
The median of 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+50 is 4.5.

BTW: kind of funny how Jenson 'balance' Button's average and median scores are in perfect balance ^_^ (in detail: 42.8% and 43.3%)



Alonso's numbers strongest of all yet the myth, that he is not that good in qualifying persists.

#17 Atreiu

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 22:10

When was he ever accused of that?

#18 reggie

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 22:14

When was he ever accused of that?


always for years by lots of people and pundits.

#19 Zava

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 22:19

Wow, that's a neat statistic! Can any driver in history beat this?

P.S. Great thread :up:

well, Patrese's teammates had a total of 12 WDCs between them (Jones - 1, Piquet - 3, Mansell - 1, Schumacher - 7) but I guess that doesn't count, as they didn't possess (all) the WDCs when they were teammates.

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#20 prty

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 22:37

Alonso's numbers strongest of all yet the myth, that he is not that good in qualifying persists.


This is the reason of why when he gets outqualified a few times in a row some people start threads and polls in an attempt to stir the situation, without realizing that actually they do it because he is, as the numbers say, the most successful driver in qualifying against his team mate :D

#21 bernardv

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 22:39

Who doesn't like statistics?!


lol

#22 mattferg

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 23:11

This is the reason of why when he gets outqualified a few times in a row some people start threads and polls in an attempt to stir the situation, without realizing that actually they do it because he is, as the numbers say, the most successful driver in qualifying against his team mate :D


Yes, and as such they're not stirring, because when a guy who he's outqualified 21 times in a row suddenly becomes the guy who's out qualified him the most, something's up. It's not stirring, just statistics. Please go back to the Ferrari thread now :)

#23 reggie

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 23:13

21 times is pretty amazing let alone against a driver of Massa's calibre. Probably a record. It highlights his amazing consistency to always be fast regardless of track and conditions.

#24 prty

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 23:38

Yes, and as such they're not stirring, because when a guy who he's outqualified 21 times in a row suddenly becomes the guy who's out qualified him the most, something's up. It's not stirring, just statistics. Please go back to the Ferrari thread now :)


Indeed it's not stirring, just an attempt at it as I said :D
I go wherever the hell I want, by the way  ;)


#25 ryan86

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 00:09

Schumacher outqualified his teammates (Brundle, Patrese, Lehto, Verstappen, Herbert) from 1992 South Africa to 1995 Hungary, a stint of over 50 races.

#26 reggie

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 00:29

Schumacher outqualified his teammates (Brundle, Patrese, Lehto, Verstappen, Herbert) from 1992 South Africa to 1995 Hungary, a stint of over 50 races.



Ye I remember during that period Schumacher was like god. Although his team mates were chumps it was still impressive.

#27 fabr68

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 02:32

Yes, and as such they're not stirring, because when a guy who he's outqualified 21 times in a row suddenly becomes the guy who's out qualified him the most, something's up. It's not stirring, just statistics. Please go back to the Ferrari thread now :)


But if his race pace is much better than such guy, then something is definitely up.

#28 fabr68

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 09:48

Does this thread lose its purpose now?

Edited by fabr68, 13 April 2013 - 09:48.


#29 prty

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 11:35

Does this thread lose its purpose now?


At least his motivation to continue an in-apparent-depth analysis on the matter :D

#30 fatd

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 11:41

Nice numbers, interesting that Hamilton has never been outqualified more than twice in a row, not even against Alonso back in 2007. Shows how great qualifier he is.
Also for Massa, that was such a long stint of being dominated by Alonso, 21 races in a row?? :eek: :eek:

#31 03011969

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 12:08

Excellent Op/thread.

Schumi outqualifying his teammates over 50 races in a row (apparently - not looked up the details) is mind-blowing if true.

#32 george1981

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 12:36

Excellent Op/thread.

Schumi outqualifying his teammates over 50 races in a row (apparently - not looked up the details) is mind-blowing if true.


That is pretty good as at times his qualifying didn't seem to be as good as his racing.

I think Bianchi will outqualify Chilton at every race this season unless he suffers from unreliability. I'm sure many people will agree.

#33 Raziel

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 12:52

Nice numbers, interesting that Hamilton has never been outqualified more than twice in a row, not even against Alonso back in 2007. Shows how great qualifier he is.
Also for Massa, that was such a long stint of being dominated by Alonso, 21 races in a row?? :eek: :eek:


a scary fact isn't it?  ;)

#34 03011969

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 12:56

I think Bianchi will outqualify Chilton at every race this season unless he suffers from unreliability. I'm sure many people will agree.

Looks like it's heading that way!

#35 fatd

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 13:40

a scary fact isn't it? ;)


Yes! Thankfully I didn't dislike Hamilton as much as I did 2007, otherwise it would be such a painful fact ;)

#36 Silli

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 13:52

Kimi Räikkönen: outqualified 4 & 5 times in a row
Having taken a 3 year sabbatical from Formula One, I decided to look at Kimi's score before and after his return.
In his first career, it was Felipe Massa who outqualified him 4 times in a row, from the 2008 Malaysian Grand Prix to the 2008 Monaco Grand Prix.


Theres a mistake, Kimi started on pole in Spanish gp that year.

#37 Seanspeed

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 13:55

Sorry m&m. :lol:

#38 mnmracer

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 16:46

Theres a mistake, Kimi started on pole in Spanish gp that year.

Thanks.
I'm not sure what happened there.
Felipe Massa actually outqualifed Kimi Räikkönen 6 consecutive times, from the 2008 German Grand Prix to the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix.

#39 Kerch

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 16:51

So in his first three races for Merc, Lewis has out-qualified Nico more times consecutively than he has ever been out-qualified himself  ;)

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#40 Atreiu

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 17:35

What about adding some retired drivers to these stats? I love these statistics.

#41 Jacobss

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 18:23

When will people start to learn that from 2003-2009 you cannot say about "outqualifying", as drivers had different fuel loads onboard? :wave:

Short and selective memory.... as always. :rolleyes:

In 2010, for the first time since 2002, we had qualis with the same amout of fuel.

#42 ArkZ

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 18:48

Fernando Alonso "a feat equaled by Lewis Hamilton from the 2007 Canadian Grand Prix to the 2007 French Grand Prix"

There were 3 races from Canada to France, it should be to the British Grand Prix, anyway it's still wrong because in France, Alonso wasn't out-qualified by Hamilton. The gearbox was broken in Alonso's car before Q3 even started. So technically it was 3 times in a row Canada-USA-(France not settled)-GB.

Edited by ArkZ, 13 April 2013 - 18:52.


#43 mnmracer

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 18:59

It's a couple of fun facts, nothing to read into too much.

#44 Wander

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 20:55

When will people start to learn that from 2003-2009 you cannot say about "outqualifying", as drivers had different fuel loads onboard? :wave:

Short and selective memory.... as always. :rolleyes:

In 2010, for the first time since 2002, we had qualis with the same amout of fuel.


Good point. Actually, in retrospect, I can't believe they kept up with such an idiotic qualifying rule for such a long time.

#45 prty

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 09:39

Will we see from you a "Distance between team mates after the race - stats and numbers" thread now?

#46 mnmracer

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 10:18

Will we see from you a "Distance between team mates after the race - stats and numbers" thread now?

If it becomes a talking point, sure :)