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WHAT HAPPENED TO RACING?


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#1 jesee

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 19:48

I am very disappointed by what i have been hearing lately and this was confirmed by Button today and i quote "It's very tricky and I don't think you're going to see many quick laps in the race. I think we're all going to be given a time to go to and that's it." I am sure in Malaysia i heard also drivers being given lap time to follow. What kind of racing is this? How can it be so superficial? How can we even say that a certain driver is better than the other when if one happen to push gets punished for not sticking to a certain laptime by the tires? Terrible.

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#2 trogggy

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 19:52

I am very disappointed by what i have been hearing lately and this was confirmed by Button today and i quote "It's very tricky and I don't think you're going to see many quick laps in the race. I think we're all going to be given a time to go to and that's it." I am sure in Malaysia i heard also drivers being given lap time to follow. What kind of racing is this? How can it be so superficial? How can we even say that a certain driver is better than the other when if one happen to push gets punished for not sticking to a certain laptime by the tires? Terrible.

I heard some of them have better cars than others. :(

#3 Deluxx

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 19:56

Well I mean racing has always been about saving tires, fuel, components and other factors since they started putting limits on things... So just because they aren't putting in 900 mph laps doesn't mean it's not racing anymore.

#4 rhukkas

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 19:58

... because most people who watch F1 don't have a clue what the hell they are watching. For people who appreciate motorsport it's a joke, but 90% of f1 fans aren't really 'motorsport' fans. A DRS overtake is no lesser value than a proper overtake. And a driver at 100% is no different than one at 50%. Same car going in circles innit?

That's who F1 is for.... that's the fans that pay the bill.s

it's rubbish yes....but f1 isn't about pleasing the racing purists....

#5 Risil

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 20:05

WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN

#6 yoyogetfunky

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 20:08

I heard some of them have better cars than others. :(



WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN

:rotfl: :rotfl:

#7 jesee

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 20:09

I heard some of them have better cars than others. :(


I think you got me wrong. I know there is always cars which are faster than others. What i have never witnessed before is drivers even in the same team being given a laptime to stick on. Yes, there is always an "ideal hypothetical laptime" to aim for or in other words the fastest laptime the car was possible to do. But this time is different...it is the laptime that tires can take regardless of the quality of the driver. What is the point of the circus?

#8 Longtimefan

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 20:09

Racing is dead and buried.

Welcome to PTMS* 2013!




*Pirelli Tyre Management Series

#9 Seanspeed

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 20:14

For people who appreciate motorsport it's a joke

I love how people like to project their opinion as representative of everybody else's. :lol:

Anyways, there's already a thread for this. Just stop watching if its such a big deal. The rest of us will enjoy the show.

#10 alan

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 20:17

True racing is long dead and buried. Theses days it is called a "show". Only thing is Bernie forgot to call it the f1 x-factor. Give it a few more years.

Edited by alan, 12 April 2013 - 20:20.


#11 Seanspeed

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 20:18

You're not a true fan if you dont like Pirelli and DRS.

So easy to make stupid statements like that.



#12 ApexMouse

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 20:19

We already have like 3 'i h8 pirreli' circlejerks going.

#13 Deluxx

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 20:19

Do what i do... watch F1 for f1 and watch other series to fulfil your needs...

Edited by Deluxx, 12 April 2013 - 20:25.


#14 Risil

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 20:21

Do what i do... watch F1 for f1 and watch other series to fufil your needs...


Indeed... F1's going down a very strange road but I'm getting good catharsis out of the chaos.

#15 PorcupineTroy

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 20:22

I love how people like to project their opinion as representative of everybody else's. :lol:

Anyways, there's already a thread for this. Just stop watching if its such a big deal. The rest of us will enjoy the show.


Oh god, I cringe whenever I hear that word associated with Formule One. Not trying to say you can't use it or anything :wave:

#16 alan

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 20:31

I used to enjoy qualifying for the last few years more than race, now even that has turned stale. The only thing i love is technology these days. It is no longer racing as it used to be. Give a driver a lap time to keep regardless of talent, give him a button to push so as to overtake and ask him not to overtake or to let another driver through for teams sake etc etc. That is all done so as to improve the "show".

#17 SunnyENTP

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 20:38

You're not a true fan if you dont like Pirelli and DRS.

So easy to make stupid statements like that.



At least he is not Bernies sheep and has a mind of his own.

#18 kenkip

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 20:40

WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN

Lol!!!!!

#19 Seanspeed

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 20:41

At least he is not Bernies sheep and has a mind of his own.

Heh. Same thing I was just trying to make fun of. As if everyone else IS a sheep or something.

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#20 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 20:50

You don't know what racing is so just go away.

#21 Deluxx

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 20:51

I used to enjoy qualifying for the last few years more than race, now even that has turned stale. The only thing i love is technology these days. It is no longer racing as it used to be. Give a driver a lap time to keep regardless of talent, give him a button to push so as to overtake and ask him not to overtake or to let another driver through for teams sake etc etc. That is all done so as to improve the "show".


I mean, I'm pretty sure DRS was also introduced for passing safely, but I digress

#22 Charles E Taylor

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 21:04

The Way it is

Not about racing, mainly about Football (Soccer) and Politics, but this from Dan Jones in the London Evening Standard yesterday, explains quite well the situation of the modern "Sporting" world.


Clubs have, over the years, morphed deliberately from organisations for and of the community into businesses driven by the profit motive.

And this is not just true of top-flight football — although it is most true there. Almost every sport you can think of, including those supposedly still governed by the amateur ethos, aspire to the goal of ‘professionalism’ — in other words, putting a price on something that was once supposed to be priceless.

Rugby, cricket, boxing, athletics, golf, tennis, whatever. Sport reflects the modern world, in which higher values matter but not as much as the cash value at the end of the contest.

The transformation of elite sport into a branch of the entertainment industry, governed by the rules of the market, has made modern sport exciting, distasteful, depressing, vibrant, amoral and entertaining. All at the same time.

In every sport I can think of, the price of a massive improvement in quality during the past 30 years has been an erosion of basic values.

Has it been worth it? Probably. Would most of us wish it another way? Probably.

And there is illustrated in microcosm everything you need to know about Thatcherism. It made things better but the cost was the sale of the soul.




I guess that that's the way it is.




Oh Dear!



Charlie

#23 gm914

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 21:06

Do what i do... watch F1 for f1 and watch other series to fulfil your needs...

Exactly this. There are plenty of other disciplines to enjoy.

#24 rhukkas

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 21:12

The Way it is

Not about racing, mainly about Football (Soccer) and Politics, but this from Dan Jones in the London Evening Standard yesterday, explains quite well the situation of the modern "Sporting" world.






I guess that that's the way it is.




Oh Dear!



Charlie


Sorry, the price of Thatcherish. That's just intellectual tosh. Even Chavez, socialist extraordinar, got in on the F1 game.

#25 mclarensmps

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 21:20

I'm amused at this thread due to the disagreements in the "F1 Myths thread". MYTH DEBUNKED

#26 Charles E Taylor

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 21:20

Sorry, the price of Thatcherish. That's just intellectual tosh. Even Chavez, socialist extraordinar, got in on the F1 game.



Don't miss the point and it's not about politics.

The whole article is here.



http://www.standard....ul-8568194.html





Charlie

#27 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 21:22

Well I mean racing has always been about saving tires, fuel, components and other factors since they started putting limits on things... So just because they aren't putting in 900 mph laps doesn't mean it's not racing anymore.

Not since they started putting limits on things. Since forever. You think drivers could go balls to the wall every lap when they had those skinny little tyres?

I saw some clips of the Tripoli Grand Prix, I think from the 30s, and there was sand on some corners. They had to maneuver around/through that.

Personally, I like the fact that the driver and the team who manage their equipment best wins.

Even the idea of "driving to a lap time" is dumb. There are several ways to go slower, some preserve the tyres better than other (do you take it easier in the high speed corners or the low speed corners? You certainly don't brake/lift early on the ends of the straights!

The smart teams will also know that drivers will be going slightly slower and fuel the cars lighter accordingly.

This combination of weighing the factors makes it interesting and evens the field more. I'm all for it.

It also makes the whole Q3 thing interesting. Everyone knows the top five or so will have to pit almost immediately because they will have used up their softs setting their fast lap in Q3. What about a driver who bolts on a set of mediums, toddles around the track and starts at P10 or 9, and sets some blistering laps at laps 3,5, range after the other drivers have pitted? He'll jump a lot of spots.

What about the drivers who qualify in P11, 12 and start on whatever compound they like? I don't think that will be much of an advantage because they'll still have to use the softs at some point. though with light fuel and a rubbered in track, they may be able to stint longer on those.

It's going to be very interesting and exciting to see how it all plays out. MUCH more interesting than the old days when the polesitter would romp away to an insurmountable lead and score a grand chelem.

Edited by OfficeLinebacker, 13 April 2013 - 13:17.


#28 SpartanChas

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 21:55

One day people will look back on the Pirelli era with rose tinted spectacles and wish for it back. Guarantee it.

#29 PurpleHam

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 22:07

It's just too much, too extreme, we can have close racing without tyres like this that would be much more honest, the F.I.A/Bernie ordering tyres like this to spice up F1 is just plain lazy...

#30 paipa

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 22:33

Just stop watching if its such a big deal. The rest of us will enjoy the show.

The problem is that people actually DO stop watching. Viewing figures are dropping everywhere. Apparently people don't enjoy the show all that much. Not that anybody cares but tomorrow will be the first time in a long long time that I don't set my alarm for qualifying. Qualifying is so worthless I just can't be bothered. My wife will probably love those Pirellis with all the upcoming free Saturdays.

#31 jondon

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 22:46

Racing is dead and buried.

Welcome to PTMS* 2013!




*Pirelli Tyre Management Series



Pirelli gomma gestione serie sounds more exotic!

#32 Seanspeed

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 22:49

The problem is that people actually DO stop watching. Viewing figures are dropping everywhere. Apparently people don't enjoy the show all that much. Not that anybody cares but tomorrow will be the first time in a long long time that I don't set my alarm for qualifying. Qualifying is so worthless I just can't be bothered. My wife will probably love those Pirellis with all the upcoming free Saturdays.

Dont confuse a minority of whiny 'purists' on this board with the opinion of the majority.

#33 mattferg

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Posted 12 April 2013 - 23:01

I don't mind the extra pitstops and fast degrading tyres, but what irritates me is tyres that can't last 10 laps and when the top ten are punished as a result for getting to Q3. Malaysia was fine as both compounds were good and lasted somewhat well, but why the heck did they bring the wrong compound to Australia with the SSs? Stupidest move ever, please stop doing that to 'mix up racing' Pirelli. Stupid fricking gimmicks.

#34 akshay380

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 00:15

Dont confuse a minority of whiny 'purists' on this board with the opinion of the majority.

Just start a poll here and I challenge you to prove that majority enjoy this tire show.

#35 Seanspeed

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 00:16

Just start a poll here and I challenge you to prove that majority enjoy this tire show.

So you think every F1 fan in the world is a member?

#36 paipa

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 00:27

Dont confuse a minority of whiny 'purists' on this board with the opinion of the majority.

I don't know why you keep going on about this "purist" thing. I'm talking about declining global TV viewing stats. That's as casual majority for you as it gets.

Edited by paipa, 13 April 2013 - 00:27.


#37 akshay380

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 00:28

So you think every F1 fan in the world is a member?

Nope. So now please prove that F1 fans around the world over are enjoying what is happening now. I dont see that because I dont see a single headline(bar from pirelli) which says tires have done a great job to promote racing.

I don't know why you keep going on about this "purist" thing. I'm talking about declining global TV viewing stats. That's as casual majority for you as it gets.

Where did you find the info re TV ratings. If true I am super happy as this tire nonsense will get over soon.

Edited by akshay380, 13 April 2013 - 00:29.


#38 Seanspeed

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 00:36

Nope. So now please prove that F1 fans around the world over are enjoying what is happening now. I dont see that because I dont see a single headline(bar from pirelli) which says tires have done a great job to promote racing.

Positive news doesn't make for great headlines I'm sure you'll agree.

If you check out most of the 'Rate this GP' threads here, people seem to be pretty happy with the races, usually getting ratings of 7 and above. And thats among the more hardcore fans.

Where did you find the info re TV ratings. If true I am super happy as this tire nonsense will get over soon.

Unless it can be shown that the decline in viewership is due to Pirelli, I dont see why anything should change in this area.

@paipa - it *is* pretty much only the purists complaining. "Oh its not true racing, blah blah blah." Thats a purist attitude. Can you show me some evidence that even the casual fans are unhappy with the tires? Funny too, cuz most people that complain here take the opposite stance - "Oh its only the casual fans who enjoy this sort of thing." Again, the 'purists' speaking.

#39 Sausage

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 02:11

Don't miss the point and it's not about politics.

The whole article is here.



http://www.standard....ul-8568194.html





Charlie


When things get popular people start selling out cause money gets involved, or to remain popular. It's not hard to grasp, and really has nothing to do with any politician worldwide cause it happens with every single thing ever.

For racing purists DRS and artificial tires are that sellout. But for many other racing fans it isn't per se, they still enjoy it, same with football.

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#40 fabr68

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 02:24

If you are surprised to see Formula 1 change every year, you have not seen Formula 1 for long.

An overtake with DRS is not less artificial than the faster car of the grid being stuck behind the slowest car of the grid for 30 laps because the track is too narrow and the aerodinamics of the front car cancels out the aerodynamics of the car behind.



#41 George Costanza

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 03:01

One day people will look back on the Pirelli era with rose tinted spectacles and wish for it back. Guarantee it.



Just like the days of Goodyear vs Bridgestone or Bridgestone vs Michlien.

or the real good old days of Goodyear, oh the best.

Edited by George Costanza, 13 April 2013 - 03:01.


#42 Deluxx

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 03:37

Not since they started putting limits on things. Since forever. You think drivers could go balls to the wall every lap when they had those skinny little tyres?


My point rofl.

Guys, just enjoy it; trust me. Micro-analyzing every little detail often dilutes the bigger picture, and your overall enjoyment of said subject analyzed.

#43 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 03:53

Just start a poll here and I challenge you to prove that majority enjoy this tire show.


RTL Germany web poll, announced in TV during Malaysia quali (early in the morning, so probably not a big draw to super-casual viewers): 84:16 pro Pirelli tyres.

Edit: I got interested in the TV ratings, googled, and found this: http://www.motorspor...d_13021602.html

Data compares 2012 with 2011, short summary:
Germany: 34.3 million viewers over all races in 2012, -2.5 million compared to 2011. Attributed to German drivers lacking success in first part of season (while Vettel won the first race in 2011), and Schumacher excitement waning. When Vettel's form returned, viewers did too: 7.5 million for Austin, 11.5 million for Brazil.
GB: 28.6 2012, -3.8 million. Attributed to Sky.
Brazil: 85.6 million 2012, +8.9%.
Italy: +15%. Attributed to Ferrari/Alonso.
Spain: +11.5%. Attributed to Ferrari/Alonso.

Worldwide: 500 million in 2012, -15 million vs. 2011. Attributed to fewer viewers in "new core markets":
US: 9.7 million in 2012, -3% from 2011.
China: 48.9 million 2012, 78.5 2011. Attributed to collision with important local sports events.
Russia: -12.8%. Attributed to poor Petrov.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 13 April 2013 - 06:26.


#44 akshay380

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 09:03

RTL Germany web poll, announced in TV during Malaysia quali (early in the morning, so probably not a big draw to super-casual viewers): 84:16 pro Pirelli tyres.

Edit: I got interested in the TV ratings, googled, and found this: http://www.motorspor...d_13021602.html

Data compares 2012 with 2011, short summary:
Germany: 34.3 million viewers over all races in 2012, -2.5 million compared to 2011. Attributed to German drivers lacking success in first part of season (while Vettel won the first race in 2011), and Schumacher excitement waning. When Vettel's form returned, viewers did too: 7.5 million for Austin, 11.5 million for Brazil.
GB: 28.6 2012, -3.8 million. Attributed to Sky.
Brazil: 85.6 million 2012, +8.9%.
Italy: +15%. Attributed to Ferrari/Alonso.
Spain: +11.5%. Attributed to Ferrari/Alonso.

Worldwide: 500 million in 2012, -15 million vs. 2011. Attributed to fewer viewers in "new core markets":
US: 9.7 million in 2012, -3% from 2011.
China: 48.9 million 2012, 78.5 2011. Attributed to collision with important local sports events.
Russia: -12.8%. Attributed to poor Petrov.

Thanks. By any chance you know what was the question asked? Much of this new found 'exciting show' is attributed to pirelli while I believe it is DRS that has made maximum differenc


#45 JRodrigues

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 09:11

So maybe the best would be a 5 lap race where every driver could push. that would be perfect. No tire excuse and 100% on the limit. Why didn't they think of that? 2hours of racing is too long, and 10 minutes should be enough of 100% full throttle.

#46 kismet

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 10:13

Most sports involve or, rather, require heavy doses of pacing, tactics and other pesky considerations like that. It's actually fairly rare that, in order to be successful, all you need to do is employ a brute force approach and go at 100% capacity from start to finish.

#47 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 10:27

Thanks. By any chance you know what was the question asked? Much of this new found 'exciting show' is attributed to pirelli while I believe it is DRS that has made maximum differenc


Obviously take the results with a grain of salt. Not just because of general caution with web polls, but because RTL seems to keep these polls open forever, and for the first poll it's impossible to know what the result was when the poll was new, and whether it changed over time. For the second poll I know that the result was 84:16 at the end of Malaysia quali, because they announced it on TV, so it has only changed by 1% since. It's important to note that the number of votes is not given. Even the opening date of the poll is not clearly stated; one can only infer from the readers' comments, or some other source. And last not least they do not even bother to set a cookie, one can vote repeatedly. But here it goes: I found two, for comparison.

Do the tyres play too big of a role?
No subtitle.
From the one comment it looks like this poll opened in April 2012, after Schumacher complained.
Answer choices and result:
Yes, the driver should be the deciding factor: 88%
No, the races have much more suspense: 12%

Are the new tyres bad for F1?
Subtitle: Is Niki Lauda correct in criticizing that the tyres have too much influence on the Formula 1 races?
AFAICT this is the poll from Malaysia 2013. Comments from March 23/24.
Answer choices and result:
Yes, one loses track of things: 17%
No, they give the races more suspense: 83%

Obviously the two results are quite opposite. It seems impossible to tell whether this is caused by a genuine change of opinion from April 2012 to March 2013, by the different wording of the questions/answers, or whether it's simply dependent on who complained, and the voters followed Schumi like sheep, but want to contradict Lauda. Or whatever.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 13 April 2013 - 10:39.


#48 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 13:21

My point rofl.

Cheers, mate.

BTW, I stand by what I said:

It also makes the whole Q3 thing interesting. Everyone knows the top five or so will have to pit almost immediately in the race because they will have used up their softs setting their fast lap in Q3. What about a driver who bolts on a set of mediums, toddles around the track and starts at P10 or 9, and sets some blistering laps at laps 3,5, range after the other drivers have pitted? He'll jump a lot of spots.

What about the drivers who qualify in P11, 12 and start on whatever compound they like? I don't think that will be much of an advantage because they'll still have to use both tyres at some point. though with light fuel and a rubbered in track, they may be able to stint longer on the softer ones.

It's going to be very interesting and exciting to see how it all plays out. MUCH more interesting than the old days when the polesitter would romp away to an insurmountable lead and score a grand chelem.


Honestly, it's going to be super interesting. Will the highest running guy who starts on fresh mediums (is it Jenson?) end up leading the race at some point, or will the leader have pulled a big enough gap before his tyres are completely shot that he can rejoin ahead of Jenson/Vettel?

Will the cars who use the softs later in the race be able to make them last longer because of a more rubbered in track, a lighter fuel load, and perhaps different atmospheric conditions?

This stuff excites me and makes me want to watch the race.

Last year, when Vettel was the fastest and he would be on pole and romp away to the lead and a convincing win, that did not excite me and make me want to stay up/wake up at O'butt dark in the morning to watch some silly race from across the world.

Now THIS is pod racing.

Edited by OfficeLinebacker, 13 April 2013 - 13:22.


#49 RealRacing

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Posted 13 April 2013 - 15:12

The Way it is

Not about racing, mainly about Football (Soccer) and Politics, but this from Dan Jones in the London Evening Standard yesterday, explains quite well the situation of the modern "Sporting" world.






I guess that that's the way it is.




Oh Dear!



Charlie



Well, I don't want to digress too far from the topic, but isn't there a case for the argument that the profit motive has been gaining positions, basically everywhere, to ultimately become one of the most if not the most important consideration for any activity? Think of oil companies boycotting alternative fuel research, pharmaceutical companies blocking the development of alternative medicine, agribusiness giants looking to push transgenics all over the world, banks creating crises, etc. Sports, F1 included, are a part of this too so as long as the $$$ are there everything is fine for the owners, organizers and, apparently, a large enough fan base to make the business profitable. Increasingly though, I believe commercial success does not necessarily equal quality. The sad part is that if, in this instance for example, a sporting series isn't successful enough, it doesn't even get a chance to be broadcasted or it fails after a short while (as was the discussion about the series with standard Williams chassis), the alternatives start to wane. At the end of the day, things come down to the question, "Are the masses, or is the majority, necessarily correct?" I just hope at some point there will be a big enough market for a niche racing series...


#50 McLarenNo1

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  • Joined: May 11

Posted 13 April 2013 - 15:22

So maybe the best would be a 5 lap race where every driver could push. that would be perfect. No tire excuse and 100% on the limit. Why didn't they think of that? 2hours of racing is too long, and 10 minutes should be enough of 100% full throttle.

You can't push 5 laps with these tyres, one lap of pushing and you already losing a lot of time. It would be good to get tyres again that allow drivers to try and race without current fear of thermal degradation and tyre wear. Racing is cruising in this Pirelli era, that is a problem that needs to be solved hopefully for next season.