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McLaren Mp4-28 Part II


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#501 bonjon1979a

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 19:28

The situation McLaren find themselves in has a direct parallel in Ferraris 2012 season. A car that is not the best is not necessarily a deal breaker if you have a WDC driver. Alonso racked up the points even when the car was qualifying out of position and was unpredictable. He also showed a faith and confidence that seemed misplaced but galvanised the team.

The cars race pace is not really that bad and is improving. The better driver of the two should really be beating the number 2s of the top teams regularly and snatching podiums regularly

The team just cannot have fallen from winning the last races of 2012 to scrapping for points just like that when they have those resources and a WDC driver


Ferrari wasn't bad in the race, especially in the wet where it was one of the quickest. Fa capitalised on opportunities. I don't think that mac are that bad in the race but there have to be questions about button if for the simple reason that he's shown in the past an inability to extract everything from the car. He described the 2012 car as the worst mclaren he's driven when lh would've been challenging for the wdc had it not been for team/ car screw ups. This season no one can say for certain if jb is extracting the most from the car, it's impossible to say. There are clearly problems with it tho and is the fifth best car at the moment so people should probably give jb the benefit of the doubt, at least until his team mate starts beating him regularly. The car looks like it has a lot of problems and I doubt there is going to be a silver bullet in all senses come Barcelona. This'll be another season where mac aren't challenging for the championships, but may pick up a race win or two...

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#502 CookinFlatSix

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 00:53

“I’ve had a lot of experience dealing with midfield teams,” he says, flatly. “I know what it feels like.”


uh oh, Buttons trump card is that he has experience of mid grid

This cannot be good news before the European leg

Edited by CookinFlatSix, 06 May 2013 - 00:53.


#503 Rybo

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 01:41

uh oh, Buttons trump card is that he has experience of mid grid

This cannot be good news before the European leg


McLaren will break themselves out of this slump. The question isn't if, but when.

#504 Rocket73

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 05:29

Don't worry guys they are going to UNLOCK THE POTENTIAL this weekend!

#505 Rocket73

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 05:30

I think that's a new one for the dictionary...

:lol:


Haha...it's not the only thing he can't spell...

#506 Owen

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 08:18

Don't worry guys they are going to UNLOCK THE POTENTIAL this weekend!

Of course I want the guys to win, but a more realistic expectation is that both cars finishing inside top 6 would look like progress. :well:

#507 CookinFlatSix

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 08:39

Of course I want the guys to win, but a more realistic expectation is that both cars finishing inside top 6 would look like progress. :well:

Only if it was on merit and not because of dnfs or problems for cars in the top 5 positions

and Barcelona must be an acid test considering it was the last track any significant testing happened at and the team have had 3 weeks to fix things.

If there is no big fix and the team are just evolving like everyone else .........

#508 ViMaMo

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 08:50

Jenson will be sweating his reputation out if they can't unlock the potential soon. Frankly it takes a lot of fine tuning for Jenson to come to grips with the handling of the car, so fingers crossed.

#509 Cavani

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 09:27

Jenson will be sweating his reputation out if they can't unlock the potential soon. Frankly it takes a lot of fine tuning for Jenson to come to grips with the handling of the car, so fingers crossed.


didn't look like that in the first 4 races , he was right on it

#510 JaredS

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 14:07

Now that Pirelli has revealed that they new revised hard compound is going to be similar to the 2012 compound, do you think the risk of Jenson getting completely lost in the setup window like he did in 2012 has increased?

#511 CookinFlatSix

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 14:16

He seems to have such a period every season, hopefully Sergio can still get some results if this happens again

On the other hand the 28s front suspension could help him heat the 2012 spec hards quicker than last year so maybe there is an advantage

#512 Rybo

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 14:38

Now that Pirelli has revealed that they new revised hard compound is going to be similar to the 2012 compound, do you think the risk of Jenson getting completely lost in the setup window like he did in 2012 has increased?


Doubt it. This is the hard from the end of the year when JB was through his time in the wilderness. If anything it might help them make strides as they were very competitive on this tire last year.

#513 JaredS

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 15:48

Doubt it. This is the hard from the end of the year when JB was through his time in the wilderness. If anything it might help them make strides as they were very competitive on this tire last year.


But the "hard from the end of the year" didn't change from the hard tyres during his time lost in the wilderness. What changed is that the tracks/surface/temperatures and very importantly, the MP4-27 changed in a way that finally matched the way Jenson uses the tyres.

The problem with the MP4-28 is it's a completely new car and worse still, they've got no idea what's going on with the car. So IF they do have problems in getting the tyres working in their range with the revised hards planned for Barcelona onwards, then not only does McLaren and Jenson have to try and figure out setup to get the tyres to work, they also have the additional variable of solving their aero issues. It's potentially a nightmare can of worms. McLaren has got to hope that the car at least allows Jenson to get the tyres in its working range, so they can focus on solving their aero issues. If he and/or car can't, then they could have trouble determining what is setup and what is fundamental aero issue.

#514 charly0418

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 15:55

If the car doesnt improve it'll be another Sauber like season for Sergio, setting up the car for the race and hoping to not lose many places in quallifying. Sigh

#515 CookinFlatSix

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 16:38

question needs to be asked if Mclaren or Ferrari have ever had a senior driver with such a strict set of conditions for the cars performance to be extracted

If a driver has a narrow operating window, but makes up for it by being head and shouldiers above all others when in that window, who had the bright idea to combine this driver with an experimental car in a time of next to no on track testing?

Why not take that as a reason to concentrate on what you have that works for said driver (the 27) and then concentrate on making things better and better within that known window

I cannot believe we r now been told that there is no magic fix, there is no solution to instantly bring a massive gain, instead its just the normal developing a car where the others have a head start and hoping to do it better than them enough to catch up at some stage before the focus shifts to 2014

insanity

#516 WitnessX

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 16:47

But the "hard from the end of the year" didn't change from the hard tyres during his time lost in the wilderness. What changed is that the tracks/surface/temperatures and very importantly, the MP4-27 changed in a way that finally matched the way Jenson uses the tyres.

The problem with the MP4-28 is it's a completely new car and worse still, they've got no idea what's going on with the car. So IF they do have problems in getting the tyres working in their range with the revised hards planned for Barcelona onwards, then not only does McLaren and Jenson have to try and figure out setup to get the tyres to work, they also have the additional variable of solving their aero issues. It's potentially a nightmare can of worms. McLaren has got to hope that the car at least allows Jenson to get the tyres in its working range, so they can focus on solving their aero issues. If he and/or car can't, then they could have trouble determining what is setup and what is fundamental aero issue.


The problem they had last year was that Jenson changed to a higher temperature brake material at Barcelona and and it took them three races to find out that the cause of the problem was that brake cooling was incorrect,causing to much heat to be transfered to the tyre and ending up with overheating. It turned out not to be a "set-up" problem (in the driver sense). Once they corrected this he was back fighting at the front.

Part of the problem of the 2012 tyres is that they had a narrow operating window, which meant that you had to come to a compromise between the prime and option tyres (because their operating ranges did not overlap very well), or just take a chance say on the option getting a good qualifying position and hoping for the best on the prime.

My understanding is that they are only "tweaking" the hard tyre, not reverting back to the 2012 structure. They are lowering its operating temperature and making it more durable. They are still retaining the "wide" operating window of the 2013 tyres as opposed to the narrow window of the 2012's. (Which IIRC is to do with the softer tyre walls, harder shoulder and the heat transfer across the contact surface).

From what I have read it appears that they do know what is going on. They know why they are losing time on the slow/mid corners and because of the loss of downforce when the car raises, which means they have been forced to lock down the car to a ride-height which has lead to secondary effects. Once they desensitize the ride-height they will then be able work an develop the rest of the car. The problem is that after promoting the "theoretical" car and the having fingers burned in the sense that in real life it had issues they did not foresee, they will be very cautious about expectations on future upgrades.

Edited by WitnessX, 06 May 2013 - 17:14.


#517 femi

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 17:04

Don't worry guys they are going to UNLOCK THE POTENTIAL this weekend!


Absolutely, with some HINDSIGHT too!

#518 pup

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 17:37

Any news from the aero test today?

#519 Mc_Silver

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 19:07

We need updates which make the car one second quicker ıf we want to keep our championship hopes alive but it is not realistic to expect such drastic improvement in Spain. They will try to close the gap step by step but it is not enough and it will be too late by then.

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#520 Owen

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 19:10

We need updates which make the car one second quicker ıf we want to keep our championship hopes alive but it is not realistic to expect such drastic improvement in Spain. They will try to close the gap step by step but it is not enough and it will be too late by then.

They know it and we know it. But hey, you gotta keep trying for glory.

#521 Mc_Silver

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 19:11

They know it and we know it. But hey, you gotta keep trying for glory.


Sad but true, anyway.

Edited by Mc_Silver, 06 May 2013 - 19:11.


#522 Kimiraikkonen

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 20:51

Car will be faster in Barca. Perhaps don´t enough to win,it´s obvious, but will be a big step ahead. Worst than this first four races are impossible.

Keep The Faith

#523 Lemans

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 00:55

We do need a lot of luck on our side this season but I'm still not giving up on this team. No ****ing way!



#524 ViMaMo

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 01:13

didn't look like that in the first 4 races , he was right on it


Clock's ticking. And Button will be pushing the development, inadvertently suiting his style. So lets hope he delivers soon.


#525 sopa

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 06:08

Looking at the comments I got a strange comparison into my head - Renault in 2007. Lead driver had just left and the #2 driver became a lead driver, who people didn't have much faith in and were making jokes of him - "he is not performing, car is much better than that". Second driver is an inexperienced driver still learning his ropes. In addition car has really dropped backwards and is finding it difficult to race the top teams any more.

McLaren had one of the fastest cars in 2012, just as Renault did in 2006. But a year later in midfield. We know that Renault got stuck in midfield for long before coming back now. What about McLaren?

#526 Rocket73

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 06:19

Of course I want the guys to win, but a more realistic expectation is that both cars finishing inside top 6 would look like progress. :well:


It has to be as least as good as this considering Barcelona is indicative of the rest of the season. I have had it with macca and their cock ups, over thinking, crap strategies blah blah blah.. All through the winter they kept saying how they had to cut out the mistakes and they go and make a radical decision, especially with new regs for '14, and make a mess of it.

They need to get the car sorted so jb can race ffs. Personally I am still hoping he's talking with Lotus.

#527 Slackbladder

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 09:14

Car will be faster in Barca. Perhaps don´t enough to win,it´s obvious, but will be a big step ahead. Worst than this first four races are impossible.

Keep The Faith


Only problem is all the other teams will be doing the same...

#528 Owen

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 09:38

Only problem is all the other teams will be doing the same...

I guess my only hope would be that the others have less potential speed left to find. But that's clutching at straws somewhat! Let's see, as I say I'm expecting incremental improvement (relative to others), not transformation.

#529 SophieB

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 10:04

Well, the other positive way of looking at things is I reckon even if they secretly thought that car is going to break the sound barrier at the weekend, they'd STILL be ultra cautious and measured when talking about expectations, just like they have been. Why risk saying much more? If the car is actually suddenly a lot faster, no-one will mind - it's a nice surprise. But if not, they haven't got egg all over their faces.

Chin up, Macca fans.

#530 Lazy

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 11:31

I'm not sure we need a second tbh, 0.5 sec would get us 5th ish in Q, and 2 or 3 tenths would get us on the podium in the race. That would be enough to keep us in the hunt as long as fingerboy doesn't keep winning.

#531 bogi

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 13:09

It has to be as least as good as this considering Barcelona is indicative of the rest of the season. I have had it with macca and their cock ups, over thinking, crap strategies blah blah blah.. All through the winter they kept saying how they had to cut out the mistakes and they go and make a radical decision, especially with new regs for '14, and make a mess of it.

They need to get the car sorted so jb can race ffs. Personally I am still hoping he's talking with Lotus.



Now this is a Hamilton fan talking trough you :lol:

#532 Owen

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 13:23

"Pirelli to bring extra FP1 tyres but not limited to rookies"
http://www.espn.co.u...ory/107170.html

I know this applies to all teams but this has to be good news for McLaren (and Sauber & Williams). Hopefully it will ensure plenty of track time for testing.



#533 ZooL

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 15:09

I'm not sure we need a second tbh, 0.5 sec would get us 5th ish in Q, and 2 or 3 tenths would get us on the podium in the race. That would be enough to keep us in the hunt as long as fingerboy doesn't keep winning.

I don't think that's enough development gain. It maybe OK in Perez's case IF, and that's a big if, that Perez can consistently show that performance from now till the end of the season. He's still a new guy though so deserves a break, probably all season, less if he has something special.

#534 charly0418

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 15:19

Half a second on race pace would make them as fast as the Ferrari, Lotus and RB

#535 Clatter

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 15:46

"Pirelli to bring extra FP1 tyres but not limited to rookies"
http://www.espn.co.u...ory/107170.html

I know this applies to all teams but this has to be good news for McLaren (and Sauber & Williams). Hopefully it will ensure plenty of track time for testing.


I hope this is not just for the Spanish GP. The paying fans at all races deserve to see some extra running.

#536 TheThirdTenor1

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 15:58

Half a second on race pace would make them as fast as the Ferrari, Lotus and RB


Ferrari, Lotus and RB will not be standing still. They will all be bringing updates.

#537 Lazy

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 16:18

Ferrari, Lotus and RB will not be standing still. They will all be bringing updates.

:eek:
Clichetastic!

#538 FastnLoud

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 19:04

I'm not sure we need a second tbh, 0.5 sec would get us 5th ish in Q, and 2 or 3 tenths would get us on the podium in the race. That would be enough to keep us in the hunt as long as fingerboy doesn't keep winning.


You can't say that because you are comparing Mclaren's improvement with the current speed of the top 4 teams.

Hearing good things about the updates, i expect and hope it will be more than half a second because the update is huge, we are talking 2009 Germany Update.



#539 chumma

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 19:06

You can't say that because you are comparing Mclaren's improvement with the current speed of the top 4 teams.

Hearing good things about the updates, i expect and hope it will be more than half a second because the update is huge, we are talking 2009 Germany Update.

But not quite Magny-Cours 2004 ;)

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#540 FastnLoud

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 19:14

But not quite Magny-Cours 2004 ;)


haha, the MP4-19B - brought some podiums and a win :)

#541 chumma

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 19:18

haha, the MP4-19B - brought some podiums and a win :)

Twas the little brother of the bigger angrier 20.

#542 Kimiraikkonen

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 19:26

Only problem is all the other teams will be doing the same...



No matters, the 28 has more room of improvement than all others. Same as Ferrari last year.

Is really good that our car has good tyre deg, this year this will be the key. Mercedes has a big issue with tyres.... :wave:

Edited by Kimiraikkonen, 07 May 2013 - 19:53.


#543 CookinFlatSix

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 19:42

This is why Barcelona is such an acid test for the rest of the season. Will the Mercs be as good as they were at the test, if so it could be that their tyre deg issues peaked at Bharain and is manageable for the rest of the year.

Thats why I cannot understand why the team are so downbeat about Barca, they should be saying we have enough data, have done enough work and at barcelona we will see how much we have caught up.

not, 'incremental increases and Barcelona is not significant in itself'

if there is no big step forward at Barcelona how they gonna catch and overtake the other teams with a quarter of season gone?

Also even if they catch up incrementally, Red Bull Merc, Ferrari and lotus have drivers that bring extra time to the car and the more sorted their cars become the harder to beat those boys will get.

They need to have massive development spurts every couple of races, maxing the supposed superior potential of this car, not having Button experimenting on Fridays to see what works better

#544 Rocket73

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 21:52

I hope this is not just for the Spanish GP. The paying fans at all races deserve to see some extra running.


No it's a permanent change.

#545 Rocket73

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 22:04

If I were a bookie I would give these odds on the barca updates: (racepace over rb, fezza, lotus)

2:1 - 2 tenths - minimal gains - most updates dont work - whitmarsh dreading interviews
7:1 - 5 tenths - good gains - most updates do work - whitmarsh loving interviews
20:1 - 1 sec - aero is turned on big time, car starts working as it should - whitmarsh crying.


#546 f1rules

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 07:13

PLEASE! Allison come to Mclaren

Edited by f1rules, 08 May 2013 - 07:13.


#547 bonjon1979a

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 10:04

I think the team probably needs to find .75 of a second in race pace to be able to challenge for wins this year which I think is a tall order. Especially because their development programme will have suffered due to the fact that they were fighting fires a bit early on which will have had a knock on effect down the line. They might suddenly 'switch on' the car but I this is probably wishful thinking.

#548 Lazy

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 10:19

I think the team probably needs to find .75 of a second in race pace to be able to challenge for wins this year which I think is a tall order. Especially because their development programme will have suffered due to the fact that they were fighting fires a bit early on which will have had a knock on effect down the line. They might suddenly 'switch on' the car but I this is probably wishful thinking.

That would have meant that Perez would have beaten Vettel by 10 - 15 secs and JB right behind him even with their far from optimal races. With that sort of pace they would have been in clear and miles down the road by the end of the race.

#549 bonjon1979a

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 10:35

That would have meant that Perez would have beaten Vettel by 10 - 15 secs and JB right behind him even with their far from optimal races. With that sort of pace they would have been in clear and miles down the road by the end of the race.


Well, that's not strictly true. Vettel wasn't going any where near flat out at the end and you have to take in to account that other teams will be bringing their own updates to barcelona. Mclaren would probably only gain around 4 - 5 tenths on teams with a .75 gain as all the other teams will probably move forwards between 2-4 tenths depending on their own upgrades. I'm talking about Mclaren taking wins on merit here and so I would say they need at least .75 gain which would equate to making up around 4 tenths on the front runners who we also know will be bringing their own upgrades. Just being realistic.

#550 Owen

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 13:56

http://www.espn.co.u...ory/107262.html

Rather depressing reading. Sound all at sea. Hoping I'm wrong. :well: