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McLaren Mp4-28 Part II


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#101 Seanspeed

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 19:51

EDIT: Were you being sarcastic? If so, 1000 apologies, man. :blush:

Edited by Seanspeed, 15 April 2013 - 19:52.


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#102 race addicted

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 19:54

Even if the MP4/28 was actually quicker in Malaysia, they are still doing a good job of improving step-by-step. Their conservative two-stopper masks some of the good job Button actually did, and perhaps any improvement was off-set by the China-track not really being the best for them.
Had they too three-stopped, they obviously would've been able to show quicker pace.

#103 Kimiraikkonen

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 20:09

Even if the MP4/28 was actually quicker in Malaysia, they are still doing a good job of improving step-by-step. Their conservative two-stopper masks some of the good job Button actually did, and perhaps any improvement was off-set by the China-track not really being the best for them.
Had they too three-stopped, they obviously would've been able to show quicker pace.


Yeah.Two stop strategy didn't allow a quicker pace than showed.

The best notice is tyre deg.Perhaps this car is able to do one stop less in any race.

Edited by Kimiraikkonen, 15 April 2013 - 20:13.


#104 Mc_Silver

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 20:16

Actually, Button could have gone a little bit faster in 2nd and 3rd stints but he had to drive very conservative race because tyres were unknown as he was 2 stopper and team may have looked silly if it wouldn't work out. It was wise race from Button and he could finish 25 sec behind the leader at best rather than 35sec but it does not matter. Vettel was very fast with soft tyres which was a bit strange considering his problems on Friday. Maybe with low fuel and more rubber on track his tyres worked much better than expected? All in all I'm sure more than 5th place was not possible in China. He could finish 4th in Malaysia at least as well which would be great result as well. So far so good for Button. Let's hope Bahrain will suit us better. I think Bahrain is rear-limited track. China was front-limited. Let's see how it will affect our car's nature.

Edited by Mc_Silver, 15 April 2013 - 20:31.


#105 Fox1

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 20:21

He may not be the best out there, but if you're trying to say a World Champion driver isn't even competent, you either aren't smart or you're trolling. Which one is it Force Ten?

I assumed Force Ten was kidding when he made that statement. You could look at it another way. You would find many people who are willing to accuse the design team of being incompetent for designing such a bad car. IMO, the only car that was flawed was the 24 and the gap between the 23 and 24 was much more significant than the gap between the 27 and 28. The car isn't perfect; very few are.

#106 Force Ten

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 20:58

You would find many people who are willing to accuse the design team of being incompetent for designing such a bad car.

Well, perhaps those "many people" have some sort of a point if the car posted it's best time with bits of it installed the wrong way up? Funnily enough the only people in the planet that think that the car is more or less fine (that means up there with Red Bull, Lotus and Ferrari) happen to be fans of a certain driver that drives for a certain well known German carmaker that is also known for making engines. And those people tend to visit these threads by droves, dropping an insulting post towards the drivers, say, that the car is just fine and split to argue to the relative merits of the drivers of a certain known German carmaker.

#107 Balths

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 21:11

Well, perhaps those "many people" have some sort of a point if the car posted it's best time with bits of it installed the wrong way up? Funnily enough the only people in the planet that think that the car is more or less fine (that means up there with Red Bull, Lotus and Ferrari) happen to be fans of a certain driver that drives for a certain well known German carmaker that is also known for making engines. And those people tend to visit these threads by droves, dropping an insulting post towards the drivers, say, that the car is just fine and split to argue to the relative merits of the drivers of a certain known German carmaker.


Embarrassing post.

#108 Fox1

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 21:49

Well, perhaps those "many people" have some sort of a point if the car posted it's best time with bits of it installed the wrong way up? Funnily enough the only people in the planet that think that the car is more or less fine (that means up there with Red Bull, Lotus and Ferrari) happen to be fans of a certain driver that drives for a certain well known German carmaker that is also known for making engines. And those people tend to visit these threads by droves, dropping an insulting post towards the drivers, say, that the car is just fine and split to argue to the relative merits of the drivers of a certain known German carmaker.

That wasn't a design problem; that was a part installed incorrectly by Engineers who are also going through a learning curve with a new car as are the drivers. Tests are just as important for the race team as they are for the drivers.

#109 oetzi

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 22:11

That wasn't a design problem; that was a part installed incorrectly by Engineers who are also going through a learning curve with a new car as are the drivers. Tests are just as important for the race team as they are for the drivers.

I don't think he said it was a design problem.

#110 PARAZAR

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 22:39

Embarrassing post.


Sounds more truthful to me than embarrassing.

#111 carlb5253

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 23:54

How have Mclaren achieved the following;

From Raikkonen, Alonso and Hamilton > Button and Perez

That is massive failings somewhere.

This team needs whole new management, there are too many 'nice' guys.

#112 BillBald

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 00:11

That wasn't a design problem; that was a part installed incorrectly by Engineers who are also going through a learning curve with a new car as are the drivers. Tests are just as important for the race team as they are for the drivers.


He's not saying that fitting the parts incorrectly was a design problem, but that it seems to indicate a design problem, when the car is slower with the parts correctly installed.



#113 chumma

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 00:14

Piola

The new McLaren were not made in the wind tunnel!
Woking engineers admitted that some parts have been modified with gumption

McLaren relies on experience rather than science. At a time of serious crisis in which the MP4-28 revealed major problems due to aerodynamic rear over-dependency by varying the height (the British call pitch sensitivity) that makes the car unstable in behaviour and hard to ride, engineers have relied on pragmatism to try to recover.

REVOLUTION IN SPAIN waiting for it to arrive the new rear suspension with a completely redone for the Gp of Spain, you are trying to put an impromptu solutions the two drivers, Jenson Button and Sergio Perez, to defend themselves better than has happened in Australia and Malaysia.

Diffuser cut like you might see in this column has changed the side of MP4-28 which is now more rounded in the area of discharges, renouncing the slenderness that had been found in the area of Coca Cola. Effe 1 Tech image, you can see the change that was made to the speaker that was "cut" on the two sides to increase the airflow between the rear wheel and wing support.

CHANGES of COMMON SENSE these novelties are not the fruit of painstaking research work in the wind tunnel, but are the findings that emerged from the "common sense" of technicians led by Tim Goss and his experience: after Malaysia there would not be time to follow the entire process for the resolution of new pieces.

SKIPPED the WINDTUNNEL design of particular parts, the making of the scale model for the wind tunnel, testing in the wind tunnel, data analysis and then proceed to the construction of carbon fiber material that requires a specific processing with non-collapsible times (autoclave cooking): [i]these are the steps that require a few weeks to decide on new parts.

Save time and is for this reason that Woking technicians have taken the responsibility to skip some steps (for example the wind tunnel) to accelerate the creation of the package that arrived in Shanghai: f. ultra-modern 1, so if you can still find answers to problems without necessarily being limited by technology ...

#114 MightyMoose

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 00:16

How have Mclaren achieved the following;

From Raikkonen, Alonso and Hamilton > Button and Perez

That is massive failings somewhere.

This team needs whole new management, there are too many 'nice' guys.


I'm fairly sure I've encountered plenty of opinions that 1 of the drivers is an "assassin" and a member of the senior management has been described as "a twat" and another regularly abused on here as "incompetent".

So it would seem your view of the team doesn't tally with many over the overall "niceness" of the squad.

PS: IMO if you're successful at the highest echelons of business &/or sport you're not going to be an uber-nice guy. There will always be something about you that makes you a hard-nosed bastard, and plenty will take umbrage at your methods of achieving success.


#115 chumma

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 00:16

Basically, the 'updates' brought to China weren't tested in the wind tunnel because they didn't have time to do that. It was just a common sense approach that they put straight into the manufacturing stage. Therefore I am not surprised now that the updates didn't bring what they 'expected' if it wasn't tested in a wind tunnel first. Makes me feel pretty optimistic about the Barcelona updates.

#116 zack1994

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 00:16

Just JB being quick to shoot down any notion that the car might be capable of delivering more than HE thinks it's capable of. I'm not convinced. The car is a departure from the 27, but not radical as some would like everyone to believe. I feel sorry for the guys and gals in McLaren's design office.

Dave robson disagrees quote : ''P5 With what we've got is a cracking job''.

#117 Force Ten

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 07:10

He's not saying that fitting the parts incorrectly was a design problem, but that it seems to indicate a design problem, when the car is slower with the parts correctly installed.

Precisely.

#118 Dalton007

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 07:58

The engineer on team radio suggests that they could have got 4th. I think that's more the expectation from a top team rather than the reality of the situation.
I don't see how they could have got anything more from the car on that strategy. On a three stop - maybe.

#119 Lights

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 08:03

The engineer on team radio suggests that they could have got 4th. I think that's more the expectation from a top team rather than the reality of the situation.
I don't see how they could have got anything more from the car on that strategy. On a three stop - maybe.

And he's probably right. Jenson could've easily fit in that smoke somewhere.

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#120 oetzi

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 08:12

He's not saying that fitting the parts incorrectly was a design problem, but that it seems to indicate a design problem, when the car is slower with the parts correctly installed.

Have they continued running it with the parts incorrectly fitted?

If so, that's stumbling on a good solution, not a design problem.

And, if it works better like that but they haven't, why not?

#121 Force Ten

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 08:17

Have they continued running it with the parts incorrectly fitted?

If so, that's stumbling on a good solution, not a design problem.

And, if it works better like that but they haven't, why not?

They didn't stumble on a GOOD solution. They stumbled on an illegal solution. Design problem is that there are ways to fit parts to the car than the way they were intended to fit and those ways make the car faster. This is a massive WTF were you thinking with your multimillion simulator software and wind tunnel budgets where apparently every millimetre counts.

#122 oetzi

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 08:24

They didn't stumble on a GOOD solution. They stumbled on an illegal solution. Design problem is that there are ways to fit parts to the car than the way they were intended to fit and those ways make the car faster. This is a massive WTF were you thinking with your multimillion simulator software and wind tunnel budgets where apparently every millimetre counts.

If the solution they stumbled on is illegal, that'll explain why they hadn't explored that possibility.

#123 Force Ten

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 09:04

If the solution they stumbled on is illegal, that'll explain why they hadn't explored that possibility.

It was also much much faster. That you can design a car that works better in a way that is not intended is a massive doh moment by itself.

#124 oetzi

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 09:12

It was also much much faster. That you can design a car that works better in a way that is not intended is a massive doh moment by itself.

So you reckon that if they stuck a 3.5l V8 in the back and the car suddenly went faster, that would mean their design process is flawed?

#125 ViMaMo

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 09:12

Mclaren has that porpoising problem on and off in the previous seasons too, maybe its their design philosophy like stiffer front suspension? Its hardly the pull rods.

#126 Force Ten

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 09:33

So you reckon that if they stuck a 3.5l V8 in the back and the car suddenly went faster, that would mean their design process is flawed?

No, but I reckon if they put the rear wing on backwards and go faster something is amiss in their design process. Thank you for a completely moronic example though.

#127 oetzi

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 10:12

No, but I reckon if they put the rear wing on backwards and go faster something is amiss in their design process. Thank you for a completely moronic example though.

You're postulating that an illegal solution being faster than a legal one means that there's a problem in the design process. It's something they wouldn't have looked at. Why shouldn't it be faster?

Perhaps they should evaluate every illegal design just to verify none of them are faster than their legal design, and if any illegal design is faster than their legal design, tear up the legal one and start again.

That would be productive. In terms of work, at least.

#128 Lazy

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 10:30

They didn't stumble on a GOOD solution. They stumbled on an illegal solution. Design problem is that there are ways to fit parts to the car than the way they were intended to fit and those ways make the car faster. This is a massive WTF were you thinking with your multimillion simulator software and wind tunnel budgets where apparently every millimetre counts.

As I understand it, the upside down suspension part made the car very low which made it fast but was impractical for a race situation, I don't think it was illegal.

#129 oetzi

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 10:39

Great news for Woking - they can now add all impractical set-ups as well as all illegal designs to the job list. Think of the employment possibilities!

#130 Balths

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 10:59

And he's probably right. Jenson could've easily fit in that smoke somewhere.

Posted Image


Cringeworthy post.

Mclaren fans need to strap in, I'm sure Mclaren will develop the car moderately as the season carries on, but lets be honest they aren't in the hunt for anything this season.

Poor car and poor driver line up (In my opinion, for those rabid JB fans frothing at the mouth as they read this :rotfl: ) is not a good mix for the WCC.

Glad the main WDC contenders all seem to be in reasonably competitive cars though, at least relatively... Would have been a travesty and a slight dis-service to viewers to have Hamilton piddling about in that silver 'fiat'.

Edited by Balths, 16 April 2013 - 11:01.


#131 Lights

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 11:02

Cringeworthy post.

Mclaren fans need to strap in, I'm sure Mclaren will develop the car moderately as the season carries on, but lets be honest they aren't in the hunt for anything this season.

Poor car and poor driver line up (In my opinion, for those rabid JB fans frothing at the mouth as they read this :rotfl: ) is not a good mix for the WCC.

Glad the main WDC contenders all seem to be in reasonably competitive cars though, at least relatively... Would have been a travesty and a slight dis-service to viewers to have Hamilton piddling about in that silver 'fiat'.

What the hell does any of that have to do with my joke.

#132 Owen

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 11:20

Preview for Bahrain:
http://www.f1reader....s-mclaren-71473

#133 Lights

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 11:27

Preview for Bahrain:
http://www.f1reader....s-mclaren-71473

After hitting two barriers in Shanghai, Sergio starts his preview with "The Bahrain Grand Prix circuit has plenty of run-off..". The kid has humor! :D

#134 Force Ten

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 11:45

Cringeworthy post.

Poor car and poor driver line up (In my opinion, for those rabid JB fans frothing at the mouth as they read this :rotfl: ) is not a good mix for the WCC.

You don't say. Thank you for your contribution.

#135 Balths

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 11:46

What the hell does any of that have to do with my joke.


Nothing, was just cringing at the joke :lol:

Maybe I should have segregated my post for easier understanding.

#136 BillBald

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 13:07

You don't say. Thank you for your contribution.


A very effective reply. I might try it myself. Thank YOU for showing us the way. :lol:



#137 Peter Perfect

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 13:23

A very effective reply. I might try it myself. Thank YOU for showing us the way. :lol:

:up:

Just been reading the f1technical.net forums mp4-28 thread again (always worth a visit for other ideas/viewpoints). There's a link there to an interesting Giorgio Piola article on Omnicorse...

http://www.omnicorse...leria-del-vento

(Google translation)

McLaren relies on the experience rather than science. In a time of crisis in which the MP4-28 has revealed major aerodynamic problems due to excessive dependence on the variation of the height of the rear axle (the British call it pitch sensitivity) that makes the car unstable behavior and difficult to drive, the engineers have relied on pragmatism to try to recover.

REVOLUTION IN SPAIN While waiting for the arrival of new rear suspension completely redone for the Grand Prix of Spain, they search for improvised solutions to put the two drivers, Jenson Button and Sergio Perez, to defend themselves better than they have been in Australia and Malaysia.

SPEAKER CUT As you can see in this column has been changed the side of the MP4-28 which is now more rounded in the exhaust, giving up the slenderness that was found in the area of Coca Cola. Image Effe 1 Tech, instead, it is possible to note the change that was made to the speaker that was "cut" to the two sides to increase the flow of air between the rear wheel and the support of the wing.

CHANGES TO COMMON SENSE These changes would not be the result of the careful research work in the wind tunnel, but the findings from the "common sense" of the technicians directed by Tim Goss fruit of experience: after Malaysia there would have been the time to follow the whole process for the approval of new parts.

BLOWN THE WIND TUNNEL Design of the particular realization of the scale model for wind tunnel, wind tunnel in resolution, data analysis and then proceed to the construction of carbon fiber material that requires a specific processing time with non-compressible (the cooking in the autoclave): These are the steps that require a few weeks to decide new parts.

SAVE TIME AND 'why engineers Woking have taken the resposnabilità to skip some stages (eg wind tunnel) to accelerate the creation of the package that arrived in Shanghai: the ultra-modern Formula 1, so if you want you can still find answers to problems without necessarily being a slave a slave to technology ...



#138 chumma

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 14:42

:up:

Just been reading the f1technical.net forums mp4-28 thread again (always worth a visit for other ideas/viewpoints). There's a link there to an interesting Giorgio Piola article on Omnicorse...

I posted this last page but people were again too busy whinging about the drivers to even bother to read it.

#139 Owen

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 14:56

I posted this last page but people were again too busy whinging about the drivers to even bother to read it.

A continual problem with this thread. Thanks for posting it. :up: Let's stick with articles on the car please.

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#140 Force Ten

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 15:45

I posted this last page but people were again too busy whinging about the drivers to even bother to read it.

I read it already on the last page! :up:

#141 onewingedangel

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 15:57

Didn't Jenson get a new gearbox for China? So a new rear suspension, which would usually require a new gearbox case/pickups would need to wait until Canada or take a grid drop.


#142 bonjon1979a

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 16:01

Didn't Jenson get a new gearbox for China? So a new rear suspension, which would usually require a new gearbox case/pickups would need to wait until Canada or take a grid drop.

I don't think so, a problem with a vibration due to tyre wear isn't a valid reason for allowing a change of gearbox. But I thought they got one free gearbox change so think they'd be alright

Edited by bonjon1979a, 16 April 2013 - 16:02.


#143 Fox1

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 19:47

A continual problem with this thread. Thanks for posting it. :up: Let's stick with articles on the car please.

Fair enough, but the drivers are a very important ingredient in the solution and that can't be ignored. Looking forward to see if McLaren can get everything sorted with the Barcelona package.

#144 Force Ten

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 23:43

:up:

Just been reading the f1technical.net forums mp4-28 thread again (always worth a visit for other ideas/viewpoints). ...

Well, what a massive waste of time to visit and read that forum was. NONE of this guys were wisened to the simple and easily understood fact that the car is just fine. It is just made to look bad the current batch of incompetent drivers the team is employing.

Yet the posters on the forum were on and on about somesort of peak downforce and usable downforce - now, what the hell is that? downforce is downforce and a good driver sets his car up so that it has always ONLY peak downforce and no less and drives accordingly - and rear suspension (I mean what?!? It is KNOWN that the problem - assuming there is any sort of a problem, which I am not sure of - is in the front suspension and more specifically in pullrod. Pull - rod.) and car bouncing?

Car bouncing??? I mean car bouncing is easy. You can see it even on an old Cadillac car in an old gangster movie for instance. You accelerate it and the front goes up. You brake and the front goes down! What's the question here, it is plainly obvious here to even the dimmest observer, that the incompetent drivers were rapidly accelerating and braking in the straights, probably the sole reason for their slowness. Even my grandma knows that you don't brake and accelerate randomly on a straight and she's been dead for over 10 years!

Here's a video of an incompetent McLaren driver wobbling his car up and down.



That post here is written in style usually described as sarcasm. Peter Perfect, thanks for an interesting read.


#145 Fox1

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 02:46

Here's a video of an incompetent McLaren driver wobbling his car up and down.

It is well noted that McLarens have had poor ride quality [especially at the front-end] for years. Bus stop @ Spa; Turn one @ Korea; Chicane @ Suzuka; Brabham,Turn6, & Clark @ Albert Park, are notorious for inducing "porpoising" in stiffly sprung McLarens, yet they've had cars with those ride qualities that were still capable of running at or near the front. If the solution is to provide the perfect car to its drivers, McLaren are in for a long and painful season. The design team are working on the 28's issues, but it's up to the drivers to deliver with the package they are given.

Sarcasm or not, you're coming across as very defensive.

Edited by Fox1, 17 April 2013 - 02:52.


#146 Force Ten

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 06:41

It is well noted that McLarens have had poor ride quality [especially at the front-end] for years. Bus stop @ Spa; Turn one @ Korea; Chicane @ Suzuka; Brabham,Turn6, & Clark @ Albert Park, are notorious for inducing "porpoising" in stiffly sprung McLarens, yet they've had cars with those ride qualities that were still capable of running at or near the front. If the solution is to provide the perfect car to its drivers, McLaren are in for a long and painful season. The design team are working on the 28's issues, but it's up to the drivers to deliver with the package they are given.

Sarcasm or not, you're coming across as very defensive.

Thank you for your contribution.

#147 carlb5253

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 07:58

I'm fairly sure I've encountered plenty of opinions that 1 of the drivers is an "assassin" and a member of the senior management has been described as "a ****" and another regularly abused on here as "incompetent".

So it would seem your view of the team doesn't tally with many over the overall "niceness" of the squad.

PS: IMO if you're successful at the highest echelons of business &/or sport you're not going to be an uber-nice guy. There will always be something about you that makes you a hard-nosed bastard, and plenty will take umbrage at your methods of achieving success.


Yes but they have had no success under Whitmarsh. Last success was under Ron.

#148 bonjon1979a

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 08:27

It is well noted that McLarens have had poor ride quality [especially at the front-end] for years. Bus stop @ Spa; Turn one @ Korea; Chicane @ Suzuka; Brabham,Turn6, & Clark @ Albert Park, are notorious for inducing "porpoising" in stiffly sprung McLarens, yet they've had cars with those ride qualities that were still capable of running at or near the front. If the solution is to provide the perfect car to its drivers, McLaren are in for a long and painful season. The design team are working on the 28's issues, but it's up to the drivers to deliver with the package they are given.

Sarcasm or not, you're coming across as very defensive.


Never seen that before on a mclaren. What I have seen in the past is incredibly stiff mclarens locking up as there's no give in the suspension. What this looks like to me is that the sidewalls of the tyres have so much give in them that they're almost acting like springs. It's almost as if the tyres are nullifying Mclaren's attempts to make the ride stiff, flexing at every bump, causing the car to porpoise.

Edited by bonjon1979a, 17 April 2013 - 08:28.


#149 Markn93

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 08:38

Wow, can someone post Tobias Gruner's latest tweet, impressive sounding package coming for Barca if true.

#150 Force Ten

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 08:45

Wow, can someone post Tobias Gruner's latest tweet, impressive sounding package coming for Barca if true.

Here you go:
"Tobias Grüner F1 ‏@tgruener 16m

#F1 McLaren updates for Spain: FW, RW, sidepods, deflectors, exhaust, floor, engine cover. Nose stays high & they keep pullrod-front."