81 replies to this topic

[mattferg]

A lot has been said on this forum about the RBR and TR link, and how 'unfair' it is because TR apparently makes it easy for Red Bull and harder for others.

With Riccardo and Verne doing little to hold up Ferrari or anyone else today, and the Verne-Webber incident, do you think any differently? Please discuss.

[Ravenak]

Please discuss.

No.

Vergne didn't see Webber.

End of discussion.

[ApexMouse]

Er... How could Riccardo or vergne of held up the leaders? They were 1 second slower, plus a tyre disadvantage whenever Fernando or whoever rocked up. Daft Argument.

[prty]

This thread is the definition of clutching at straws

[redreni]

Most of what's been said about this was said by me and Mattferg on another thread. To summarise, I argued that while STR are usually not racing the likes of Ferrari, RBR etc, they do have a record of making things awkward for Ferrari (or anyone else who is directly competing with RBR) to get past them even if this costs them time against their direct competitors, and that they are so eager to let the RBR cars past that they don't care if they lose time in the process. As an example I referred to Monza 2012 where Ricciardo fought very hard for position with Massa, to the point where his driving was quite scruffy, but then when Vettel got caught out by the battle ahead of him and nearly ran into Ricciardo, presenting Alonso with a chance to nip past him, Ricciardo lifted on the straight to allow Vettel through and to block Alonso from challenging Vettel, then tried to chop Alonso's nose off when Alonso followed Vettel through. In essence, the theory was, they jump out of the way for Red Bull but fight harder than is good for them with others.

I was impressed by how Ricciardo drove today; he was quick and focussed on his race and he wasn't just there trying to get into or out of particular cars' way. That said, the DRS zones at China make overtaking a bit of a non-issue anyway, so he probably wasn't asked for help because none should have been needed, and he would have struggled enormously to hold anybody back who was quicker than him because of the nature of the track and the DRS.

Regarding Vergne, all I would say after today is I can't have been the only one who believed that the STRs would jump out of the way for a Red Bull. Webber obviously believed it too or he would have bided his time at the hairpin and then blasted past Vergne on the DRS down the straight. The accident was a pure misunderstanding because Webber expected the STR to drive right round the outside of a hairpin, on the marbles, rather than make Webber wait one corner and then get overtaken on the straight without any time loss at all (in fact he could have picked up the tow an gained time). Maybe there has been a change of policy where Webber is concerned? Maybe the instructions from Helmut Marko as to what to do when the a big sister car comes up behind now only apply if it's Vettel? Or maybe it was an error and Vergne genuinely didn't see him there. I mean, it's obvious that Vergne didn't realise Webber was committed, otherwise to turn in would have been suicidal. But maybe he just didn't clock him at all or realise that he wanted past before the hairpin?

Either way, if anybody believes Vergne would get away with doing that to Vettel, and then be allowed to go to the stewards and put the blame on Vettel like he did to Webber, I'm sorry but you're living in cloud cuckoo land. Vettel's made it clear over the last few weeks who runs that outfit, and if Webber no longer finds it easy to waft past the STRs, all that tells you is that his privileges have been curtailed, perhaps as a result of his sulking and making sarcastic comments since the Sepang incident.

[Seanspeed]

Its a bit early in the season for them to be just throwing themselves out of the way like they did at the end of last season.

I think Vergne would have given Webber an easy go of it had Webber had a little more patience and tried somewhere more obvious. Vergne no doubt didn't expect Webber to make an attempt there. I dont think anybody would.

Edited by Seanspeed, 14 April 2013 - 19:03.

[baddog]

Unless Vergne took remote control of Webber's car and made him screw up and spear the side of the Torro Rosso, I dont see that he had a lot to do with it.

[bourbon]

[...]Either way, if anybody believes Vergne would get away with doing that to Vettel, and then be allowed to go to the stewards and put the blame on Vettel like he did to Webber, I'm sorry but you're living in cloud cuckoo land. Vettel's made it clear over the last few weeks who runs that outfit, and if Webber no longer finds it easy to waft past the STRs, all that tells you is that his privileges have been curtailed, perhaps as a result of his sulking and making sarcastic comments since the Sepang incident.

Stay calm. Vettel is a fantastic triple world driver's champion.

Not sure why you are blaming Vergne, Webber admitted his mistake to the stewards:

Facing the Stewards as they investigated the Vergne incident, Webber admitted that he attempted to overtake the Frenchman because he believed he would give him sufficient room. Vergne however, maintained his normal line through the corner and Webber was unable to avoid the collision. The Australian admitted that it was his mistake.

The Stewards agreed and having decided the Red Bull driver had breached Article 16.1 of the FIA Formula One Sporting Regulations, handed him a three-place grid penalty for next weekend's race in Bahrain.

STORY HERE

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Webber said: "I was regrouping and coming through the field and got to Jean-Eric.

"I was coming from a reasonable distance back but he knew I was there.

"He was really, really wide and looking like he opened the corner and was giving me the line.

"But we got to the apex and he took it.

"It's disappointing. He was entitled to do that, but if he'd just gone around the outside we would've both survived.

"It probably looks quite clumsy but I couldn't get out of it."

He admitted that in the TV replays used by the race stewards to determine the penalty "one view looks like Jean-Eric is giving me the line and the other view looks more on me".

And This STORY HERE

Edited by bourbon, 14 April 2013 - 19:51.

[redreni]

Stay calm. Vettel is a fantastic triple world driver's champion.

Not sure why you are blaming Vergne, Webber admitted his mistake to the stewards:

Facing the Stewards as they investigated the Vergne incident, Webber admitted that he attempted to overtake the Frenchman because he believed he would give him sufficient room. Vergne however, maintained his normal line through the corner and Webber was unable to avoid the collision. The Australian admitted that it was his mistake.

I am calm and I never said Vettel wasn't all he's cracked up to be. I also never blamed Vergne for the crash - unless pointing out the obvious fact that had he realised the accident was going to happen he would have tried to avoid it constitutes blame. As I tried to make clear in my post, the accident was a pure misunderstanding based on the fact Webber thought Vergne was going to bend over backwards for him. Not bending over backwards is never going to be considered a crime in the eyes of the stewards so Webber was left with no argument. He couldn't say "he's supposed to move aside - team orders," even though that's the truth of the matter, because, whatever certain people on this forum might think, openly referring to team order-type arrangements between one team and another wouldn't go down at all well with the FIA. For that reason the two teams would only deny the existence of such arrangements even if Webber were to refer to them. The reality is the crash was Webber's fault although the confusion that led to Webber's error was of Red Bull's own making. It follows that if the same thing happened to Vettel it would be Vettel's fault, but if you believe for one moment that an STR driver would be allowed, or would dare, to go to the stewards and blame Vettel, you are crazy.

[mnmracer]

The whole 'Toro Rosso - Red Bull advantage' is a non-existent issue anyway. I'm working out the rest of the season, but for the first 8 races of 2012, the lap time loss in overtaking a Toro Rosso for the Red Bull drivers was the same as that for other (front running) teams.

[Seanspeed]

The whole 'Toro Rosso - Red Bull advantage' is a non-existent issue anyway. I'm working out the rest of the season, but for the first 8 races of 2012, the lap time loss in overtaking a Toro Rosso for the Red Bull drivers was the same as that for other (front running) teams.

Conveniently only the first half the season, huh?

And really, it seems like an extraordinary effort to go through each and every race and find each pass of a Toro Rosso by every single front runner and come up with a total calculation(guess) for how much it lost them just so you can come here and hopefully claim that Red Bull aren't exactly gaining an advantage in this area.

Unfortunately for you, most of us probably did watch those races last year where it was pretty clear that Red Bull do in fact get an advantage.

Edited by Seanspeed, 14 April 2013 - 20:28.

[mnmracer]

Conveniently only the first half the season, huh?

And really, it seems like an extraordinary effort to go through each and every race and find each pass of a Toro Rosso by every single front runner and come up with a total calculation(guess) for how much it lost them just so you can come here and hopefully claim that Red Bull aren't exactly gaining an advantage in this area.

Unfortunately for you, most of us probably did watch those races last year where it was pretty clear that Red Bull do in fact get an advantage.

It may come as a surprise to you, but not everyone has an agenda in every single post. Some people are actually interested in knowing more about Formula One.
But I know that regardless of what the numbers are going to say, there will be plenty of people saying "but I saw...", as eye-witness reports have always been so much more reliable than looking at hard data.

[Seanspeed]

It may come as a surprise to you, but not everyone has an agenda in every single post. Some people are actually interested in knowing more about Formula One.
But I know that regardless of what the numbers are going to say, there will be plenty of people saying "but I saw...", as eye-witness reports have always been so much more reliable than looking at hard data.

@ hard data.

But yea, I'm sure you've launched this deep and exhaustive research about how much time front-runners lose passing specifically the Toro Rosso cars for a completely objective reason. And that you're basically the head of the RB/Vettel defense force on this board is completely coincidental.

You must really think I'm an idiot.

Edited by Seanspeed, 14 April 2013 - 21:21.

[pingu666]

well seeing as they have ferrari engines, probably dont want to be tooo annoying to the reds either.

[mnmracer]

@ hard data.

But yea, I'm sure you've launched this deep and exhaustive research about how much time front-runners lose passing specifically the Toro Rosso cars for a completely objective reason. And that you're basically the head of the RB/Vettel defense force on this board is completely coincidental.

Crowdsourcing helps ;-)
But like I said, I don't expect you to understand having an extended interest in talking points that don't fit your agenda.

You must really think I'm an idiot.

I'll be kind enough not to answer that.

[V8 Fireworks]

Vettel is a fantastic triple world driver's champion.

Well he is very fast.

"We will show them."
"Mark is too slow get him out of the way."
"I have seen it all in Formula 1 with these stupid overtakes..." (When someone else does it, it is a stupid overtake)
""There are a few things that make me angry. Mostly things not going my way."

Fantastic? Really? Fast? Yes. A classic humble gentleman champion and always fair racer I am not sure.

[goldenboy]

I'm a fan of both drivers and didn't see the incident but don't particularly like the way webber talked about how he thought vergne would of just gotten out of the way etc. The STR thing puts me a bit off, and I'm a Red Bull fan!

[SpartanChas]

Wouldn't be surprised at all if marko has told the Toro boys to jump out of Vettels way and treat Mark like any other driver.

[MaccaMerc]

Wouldn't be surprised at all if marko has told the Toro boys to jump out of Vettels way and treat Mark like any other driver.

Nor me. Usually the TR drivers jump out of the way (as you say) straight away. Everything that has happened this weekend does make it look like the team are punishing him for daring to question Seb's selfish actions, instead of the usual ass-kissing that the team gives Vettel.

[teejay]

I just assumed Webber thought it was Vettel and wanted to multi 21 him.

[mattferg]

Wow, I leave this thread for a few hours and the usual subjects appear. Instead of questioning whether TR do indeed block others and give RBR an advantage.... as has not been seen in the past*, they invent a conspiracy theory where Marko has told two professional drivers (one of which is very close with Webber) to block him and let Vettel through. Wow.

(*most of the races people complain about, Abu Dhabi, they let Mercs and others through too)

[Lee Nicolle]

From the bit I have seen it was just another example of a fast car trying to pass a slower one. And the slower one ignoring blue flags. The whole 'lack' of racing these days will cause more of these situations as nobody is quite sure what speed the other is doing in that part of the race. eg are they saving tyres and fuel or are they actually racing. Slower cars blocking faster ones will always cause problems and Verne should know that blocking Webber rightly or wrongly may be a drama. Or Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel and several others too!

[karne]

I think the issue for me is primarily that last year, at Abu Dhabi, in a more or less identical situation, Vergne literally threw himself off the road to get out of Vettel's way. And I am sure many people saw the way he was taking that corner and thought "he's doing hte same for Mark." But no. As bloody usual, one of the RBR drivers seems to have access to an advantage denied to the other.

[BillBald]

Wouldn't be surprised at all if marko has told the Toro boys to jump out of Vettels way and treat Mark like any other driver.

Would they need to be told?

[mattferg]

I think the issue for me is primarily that last year, at Abu Dhabi, in a more or less identical situation, Vergne literally threw himself off the road to get out of Vettel's way. And I am sure many people saw the way he was taking that corner and thought "he's doing hte same for Mark." But no. As bloody usual, one of the RBR drivers seems to have access to an advantage denied to the other.

I don't remember him not doing the same for Mark in that race, but as I've said before in this thread he did do the same for Mercedes.

Would they need to be told?

You know Mark is close with Riccardo, right?

Edited by mattferg, 15 April 2013 - 01:21.

[EthanM]

From the bit I have seen it was just another example of a fast car trying to pass a slower one. And the slower one ignoring blue flags.

I wonder what on earth are you smoking? Vergne/Webber were on the same lap racing for position, there were no blue flags nor should there have been any

[HP]

I wonder what on earth are you smoking? Vergne/Webber were on the same lap racing for position, there were no blue flags nor should there have been any

Thanks for pointing out the obvious. Someone should ask Webber, if he thought at that time, the STR were a lap down. So far we know that Webber thought Vergne would let him through. But on what Webber based that judgment would be interesting to know.

[LoudHoward]

Thanks for pointing out the obvious. Someone should ask Webber, if he thought at that time, the STR were a lap down. So far we know that Webber thought Vergne would let him through. But on what Webber based that judgment would be interesting to know.

Considering Webber had been last twice in the last 15 laps, I doubt he thought he was lapping someone he was closing up on for a few laps.

It was 100% Webber's fault, no doubt, but I think he thought he was being let through, less because it was an STR, and more because people just don't want to fight that kind of fight with these tyres at that stage of the race.

[Lee Nicolle]

I wonder what on earth are you smoking? Vergne/Webber were on the same lap racing for position, there were no blue flags nor should there have been any

I know they were 'racing' for position but still one is a slower car and one is a faster car, at that time actually driving fast. As for no blue flags, they are always out when you are racing in close proximity, ESPECIALLY as a faster car is trying to pass you. That does not preclude the ability to race but warns the leading driver of another car. And remember this is in the day of we race for 3 laps, then Sunday drive for 10 as the tyres as stuffed and we have to get enough fuel mileage. This from all teams, it seems Mark was on some of those few fast laps that happen !!

[icecream]

Considering Webber had been last twice in the last 15 laps, I doubt he thought he was lapping someone he was closing up on for a few laps.

It was 100% Webber's fault, no doubt, but I think he thought he was being let through, less because it was an STR, and more because people just don't want to fight that kind of fight with these tyres at that stage of the race.

[Kingshark]

Vergne doesn't need to expect Vettel to make a proper overtake. He'll just drive off the road as soon as he sees Seb in his mirrors!



And to think that Vergne shut the door on Webber today because he didn't see him.

[Reinmuster]

[Cesc]

Considering Webber had been last twice in the last 15 laps, I doubt he thought he was lapping someone he was closing up on for a few laps.

It was 100% Webber's fault, no doubt, but I think he thought he was being let through, less because it was an STR, and more because people just don't want to fight that kind of fight with these tyres at that stage of the race.

I agree, but I think that wouldn´t have happened if it was Vettel the one coming...

[seahawk]

Mark would have required lots and lots of goodwill from Vergne to make that move work. I personally believe Vergne simply did not expect Webber to dive to the inside in that corner, more expecting him to pass after the corner.

Edited by seahawk, 15 April 2013 - 05:55.

[nomi]

Both STR drivers submit and submissive to Helmut Marko, especially Daniel Ricciardo, didn't you see the grid walk where Daniel is so suck ass to Helmut.

[krapmeister]

Just because we haven't seen it doesn't mean JEV isn't suck ass to Marko either. Let's face it though, if you are an STR driver you HAVE to suck ass to Marko - even Vettel before he got into RBR...

Edited by krapmeister, 15 April 2013 - 06:11.

[Claudius]

I know they were 'racing' for position but still one is a slower car and one is a faster car, at that time actually driving fast. As for no blue flags, they are always out when you are racing in close proximity, ESPECIALLY as a faster car is trying to pass you. That does not preclude the ability to race but warns the leading driver of another car. And remember this is in the day of we race for 3 laps, then Sunday drive for 10 as the tyres as stuffed and we have to get enough fuel mileage. This from all teams, it seems Mark was on some of those few fast laps that happen !!

You really are smoking something...
There are no blue flags waved when two cars are fighting for position.

[LuckyStrike1]

So Vettel runs Toro Rosso too and uses both teams solely to screw up for Webber?

I'm having whatever you guys are having!

[Lee Nicolle]

You really are smoking something...
There are no blue flags waved when two cars are fighting for position.

Only since the start of motorsport. Yes it is up to the flaggies to a degree. BUT Mark came up quickly= blue flag

[Headspin]

@ hard data.

But yea, I'm sure you've launched this deep and exhaustive research about how much time front-runners lose passing specifically the Toro Rosso cars for a completely objective reason. And that you're basically the head of the RB/Vettel defense force on this board is completely coincidental.

You must really think I'm an idiot.

Some of us might find this kind of excercises interesting. We can determine ourselves wether the information is valuable or not. Who are you to to ridicule other forumer trying to provide all of us information? Alonso fan with an agenda, obviously. His "objective reason" could be having some real arguments with the likes of you. Not that it helps, pigeons and chess, you know.

[krapmeister]

Um... mate - in F1 blue flags are ONLY waved when the faster cars are lapping backmarkers, not when they are fighting for position...

[Baddoer]

Oh, surely somewhere someone have a plot for something. How funny to read all this conspiration crap.

[One]

There isn't a conspiracy in this thing, I mean what for? Mark was unlucky Verne did not see Mark.

This gives some thoughts:
1. Verne is not capable of racing, nor bringing the race car back home during this Grand Prix. Verne waists his chance by not paying enough attentions.
2. Mark thought that Verne has seen him, which was misjudged the situation, he should have bot taken his bold move.

SO this is a racing incident.

and yet again this bring me another thought, just a thought...
1. In a Formula One racing a bold over taking moves can be punished.
2. On race track a driver who failed to see an obvious competitor on track is not seen as failed to conduct race at the appropriate level.

From here, I conclude that Formula One is still a conservative sport.

We saw this yesterday:
1. Kimi being given bodily bang by a young aggressive Perez.

A slower car driven by a driver who concerns less about fair racing caused accident. It is like a professional wrestling.
Somehow, It brings me this thoughts that we are truly in a show business, more accident will please world wide TV.

Back to the topic, RBR-STR link.

Red Bull is the top team that causes most amount of news in controversy of agony, politics and collision. "Race by Hate" seems to me the clue in the camp. Sadly Vettel is not anymore a easy going young star but a vicious, mean dark star. But this brings us a single precedence concerning conduct of former Renault team leader Flav at Singapore.
Therefore, if the paddock were discussing this with true concern, I would assume to handle this with more attention than other incidents.

[gillesthegenius]

Good one.

[Realyn]

This gives some thoughts:
1. Verne is not capable of racing, nor bringing the race car back home during this Grand Prix. Verne waists his chance by not paying enough attentions.

Ok, some more for saying Verne should have looked into the mirrors.

Besides that, If Ver[g]ne is not capable of racing, then neither are Alonso and Gutiérrez, right ?

[One]

Ok, some more for saying Verne should have looked into the mirrors.

Besides that, If Ver[g]ne is not capable of racing, then neither are Alonso and Gutiérrez, right ?

OK there was elements of irony in my first statement, it comes from the title as well. The title says VERNE wit no 'G', so I put my GEEEZ in the statement!

Jokes aside, Vergne raced well over his competitor at the first two races this season. In contrast to Ricciardo who made a lot statement Vergne kept his mouth shut and raced on. I liked the result so far. In a way it is UNFORTUNATE that this incident came just now, rather than any other time, which might have been poison less so to say. Besides, this is right on the spot as Red Bull all together tangles agony stories this season. Bad timing perhaps.

I should have like to note the statement in other tone, perhaps, if you like, in a sense that, in one way or the other it was for Vergne a lot better if he stayed out of the problem and just focused in finishing in front of Ricciardo. It might have helped him more than showing off how hard he raced Webber at this particular race at this particular corer.

[redreni]

I think he thought he was being let through, less because it was an STR, and more because people just don't want to fight that kind of fight with these tyres at that stage of the race.

Slow cars don't want to lose time defending, but that doesn't mean you drive totally off line to let people through when you're only 1 corner away from a DRS zone. If you hold your line and let the faster guy DRS you, then jump into his slipstream, you will actually gain time rather than lose. The only way you'd go offline at the hairpin is if you cared more about the other car's time loss than you did about your own (or if you saw that he was committed to a move up the inside and you wanted to avoid a collision). Fair play to Vergne for making Webber wait for the DRS rather than jumping out of the way.

To the guy who compiles data on this, I'd be interested to see the numbers, but all I'd say is the numbers only prove something if they are relevant to the question at hand. As far as I'm aware there's no allegation that STR do any significant blocking of Ferrari, Merc, McLaren etc when being lapped. The blue flag rules for lapped traffic are so strict in F1 that any blocking would result in a penalty. So the only data that's relevant is losses for top teams passing STR for position. Also, time loss is one relevant factor but there are others.

For example, in Monza 2012 Vettel suffered time loss in passing Ricciardo because he was blocked and had to brake at the exit of the second chicane. Anyone who has a passing familiarity with motorport and watches the clip would tell you the block was accidental, but it still happened. Yet the crucial factor in that exchange is the way Ricciardo (a) lifted on the straight to give the position to Vettel (b) positioned his car to prevent Alonso from overtaking Vettel and © tried to further protect Vettel by turning in accross Alonso's nose. Your laptime data for that race will probably tell you Massa lost maybe a second passing Ricciardo, Vettel perhaps 3 seconds and Alonso the same, making Ferrari's average loss less than RBRs. But that would be entirely to miss the point, which is that Ricciardo knobled himself to make sure Vettel would not lose a position. Once you take out data from cars lapping STR, the data set is likely to be small, so you have to take account of particular occasions where the figures may mislead, and the advantage RBR allegedly gained was positional or tactical rather than a pure time gain.

Edited by redreni, 15 April 2013 - 13:52.

[mnmracer]

To the guy who compiles data on this, I'd be interested to see the numbers, but all I'd say is the numbers only prove something if they are relevant to the question at hand. As far as I'm aware there's no allegation that STR do any significant blocking of Ferrari, Merc, McLaren etc when being lapped. The blue flag rules for lapped traffic are so strict in F1 that any blocking would result in a penalty. So the only data that's relevant is losses for top teams passing STR for position. Also, time loss is one relevant factor but there are others.

For example, in Monza 2012 Vettel suffered time loss in passing Ricciardo because he was blocked and had to brake at the exit of the second chicane. Anyone who has a passing familiarity with motorport and watches the clip would tell you the block was accidental, but it still happened. Yet the crucial factor in that exchange is the way Ricciardo (a) lifted on the straight to give the position to Vettel (b) positioned his car to prevent Alonso from overtaking Vettel and © tried to further protect Vettel by turning in accross Alonso's nose. Your laptime data for that race will probably tell you Massa lost maybe a second passing Ricciardo, Vettel perhaps 3 seconds and Alonso the same, making Ferrari's average loss less than RBRs. But that would be entirely to miss the point, which is that Ricciardo knobled himself to make sure Vettel would not lose a position. Once you take out data from cars lapping STR, the data set is likely to be small, so you have to take account of particular occasions where the figures may mislead, and the advantage RBR allegedly gained was positional or tactical rather than a pure time gain.

The numbers will be open source, and we'll see what they tell.
Though in your case of Monza, I hope you would take a look at the footage a little better. Ricciardo never turned in to Alonso or anything. He turned into the corner at the same time, as one tends to do when the track ends, but Alonso was already clearly side-by-side. No part of the TR was in any way even close to blocking the Ferrari.

[Astro]

Regarding Vergne, all I would say after today is I can't have been the only one who believed that the STRs would jump out of the way for a Red Bull. Webber obviously believed it too or he would have bided his time at the hairpin and then blasted past Vergne on the DRS down the straight. The accident was a pure misunderstanding because Webber expected the STR to drive right round the outside of a hairpin, on the marbles, rather than make Webber wait one corner and then get overtaken on the straight without any time loss at all (in fact he could have picked up the tow an gained time). Maybe there has been a change of policy where Webber is concerned? Maybe the instructions from Helmut Marko as to what to do when the a big sister car comes up behind now only apply if it's Vettel? Or maybe it was an error and Vergne genuinely didn't see him there. I mean, it's obvious that Vergne didn't realise Webber was committed, otherwise to turn in would have been suicidal. But maybe he just didn't clock him at all or realise that he wanted past before the hairpin?

I don't imagine many drivers would risk their race with such a silly move coming so late to the hairpin unless they were very confident Vergne was trying to get out of the way. It was the sort of misunderstanding that sometimes can be expected with cars being lapped. That's how Webber seems to have interpreted it: A driver trying to get out of his way (but without blue flags )

Still, assuming that it was only due to Webber's inexperience in F1, see below:

Vergne doesn't need to expect Vettel to make a proper overtake. He'll just drive off the road as soon as he sees Seb in his mirrors!



And to think that Vergne shut the door on Webber today because he didn't see him.

Only with a team mate one would achieve such a level of cooperation.

[rasul]

I think it's pretty obvious. No one necessarily needs to tell Vergne and Dan to get out of the RBR drivers' way. They simply aren't stupid. They know Webber will retire soon and, with all due respect to Mark, he isn't RBR's triple world champion, so it's understandable and quite smart if they try to help/please Vettel more.
That being said, I believe Vergne simply didn't expect that move from Webber, so Mark has no one to blame but himself. The conspiracy theories are ridiculous.

Edited by rasul, 15 April 2013 - 16:25.