I'm a little worried about the newest F1 generation
#1
Posted 14 April 2013 - 20:23
Guys like Alonso, Raikkonen, Button, Webber and Massa are getting older, and we need fresh new blood in the sport. However the newest generation is really worrying. Hamilton and Vettel are the best prospects for the future, but they are 2007 finds, that was 6 years ago. They are experienced drivers now and reached their prime. We haven't found any real deal since then. Maybe Hulkenberg, but he doesn't look like as awesome as the current topdrivers as well.
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#2
Posted 14 April 2013 - 20:29
EDIT: And this might mean that it isn't necessarily the ultimate best talents on the ladder that make the step up to F1 in the end.
#3
Posted 14 April 2013 - 20:31
Edited by toroRosso, 14 April 2013 - 20:33.
#4
Posted 14 April 2013 - 20:34
#5
Posted 14 April 2013 - 20:34
#6
Posted 14 April 2013 - 20:39
Case in point: Jules Bianchi is absolutley schooling Chilton. Bianchi has had much more testing experience. Guys like Maldonado don't have much to go on at all before they make their debuts.
However, Grosjean doesn't have this excuse, so....
But IMO more testing, (a couple days a year are nowhere near enough) should help the talent.
#7
Posted 14 April 2013 - 20:39
I still can`t figure out Ricciardo.
Regarding Perez... not really sure why Whitmarch had to give him a seat and why he`s in F1 and Kobayashi is out. I never believed Perez was any better than Kobayashi.
#8
Posted 14 April 2013 - 20:41
I like what iam seeing with Jules Bianchi. Hopefully he can keep it up.
I hope so too but I am cautious. Remember the Perez bandwagon a year or so ago. He was put on the pedestal as Massa's replacement to rattle Alonso's cage. So far he's only rattled fellow drivers by weaving. So much can change with regards to Bianchi. Someone better step up because there is a Red Bull seat up for grabs and who knows how much longer Button or Massa will keep at it. So far no youngster is standing out.
#9
Posted 14 April 2013 - 20:41
The tough thing for new drivers right now is that it's the 4th year Ferrari/Red Bull/Mercedes/Lotus/McLaren practically dominate the sport with largely the same line up. They employ the world champions and they aim for consistency in drivers, even if means keeping 2nd rate drivers employed to suit their 1st driver. It's stagnating the market a bit. Grosjean has shown flashes of good performance but is often put on the back foot by the team. Perez got half a shot this season because Schumacher retired, this years' McLaren obviously isn't the dream start at a top team that any driver imagines. I think it's still largely about drivers getting proper chances, it's how all the current top drivers also started, although that's hard to remember.
#10
Posted 14 April 2013 - 20:42
#11
Posted 14 April 2013 - 20:45
The tires kind of mess up accurate judgements that you could make... If the team makes a wrong call on strategy you could be habitually pushed further down.
#12
Posted 14 April 2013 - 20:51
Edited by bub, 14 April 2013 - 21:01.
#13
Posted 14 April 2013 - 20:51
You'd think Vettel, Hamilton and Rosberg will be about there. Other possibilities? Hulkenberg, some current RB junior (Ricciardo, Costa?) and maybe some other can progress (Bianchi, Bottas?). Or some wildcard like Frijns. So this would be your top line-up in 5 years time. How does it sound?
Actually all goes in cycles. People say that during Schumacher's reign the competiton was weak. When Hakkinen was on his way out, for a brief moment we had a time, when Coulthard, Barrichello and Ralf Schumacher were older Schumacher's greatest rivals. Then the new great generation emerged of Raikkonen and Alonso. So maybe now we have to wait a little bit too before the next great generation and get a few lean years inbetween.
#14
Posted 14 April 2013 - 20:59
So who will be top drivers in 5 years time? Which drivers occupy top seats and finish in the top6 in the drivers championship?
You'd think Vettel, Hamilton and Rosberg will be about there. Other possibilities? Hulkenberg, some current RB junior (Ricciardo, Costa?) and maybe some other can progress (Bianchi, Bottas?). Or some wildcard like Frijns. So this would be your top line-up in 5 years time. How does it sound?
Actually all goes in cycles. People say that during Schumacher's reign the competiton was weak. When Hakkinen was on his way out, for a brief moment we had a time, when Coulthard, Barrichello and Ralf Schumacher were older Schumacher's greatest rivals. Then the new great generation emerged of Raikkonen and Alonso. So maybe now we have to wait a little bit too before the next great generation and get a few lean years inbetween.
Yeah I think it's just that stage in the cycle. It's true they need more time these days with so little testing but all the real talents we have now had all shown themselves by 20/21/22.
Teams would kill to discover a 5th top driver because as we saw today they can't achieve anything without one, the driver is more important than the car atm - 5 different cars made up the top 5, the highest teammate was 6th.
#15
Posted 14 April 2013 - 21:03
I hope so too but I am cautious. Remember the Perez bandwagon a year or so ago. He was put on the pedestal as Massa's replacement to rattle Alonso's cage. So far he's only rattled fellow drivers by weaving. So much can change with regards to Bianchi. Someone better step up because there is a Red Bull seat up for grabs and who knows how much longer Button or Massa will keep at it. So far no youngster is standing out.
Yes, Bianchi is unproven, he could end up someone like Perez or di Resta, who knows. I hope he will perform, because Massa's, Webber's and Button's years in F1 are numbered, while Alonso and Raikkonen become veterans as well with 200+ GPs behind them. That left Hamilton, Vettel and Rosberg for the future... we need capable drivers to fight for the podium!
#16
Posted 14 April 2013 - 23:30
#17
Posted 14 April 2013 - 23:50
In 10 years we would have a 41 year old Fernando and Felipe fighting 43 year old Jenson and Kimi. Need I even go on? Even Sebastian would be 35 years old which is older than any of the guys today not including Mark who is considering retirement. Heck, his retirement after this year even looks certain!Need new blood? Lol!!! The top drivers have another 10 years left in them. In fact, F1 had too many youngsters in the last decade. Before that it was always a man's sport, not one for boys.
So we most definitely need new blood. I wouldn't be too worried about it though. I'm confident that great talent will emerge from the likes of Bottas, Bianchi and Frijns etc.
#18
Posted 14 April 2013 - 23:57
The way that the new cost-conscious F1 has constructed itself means that talent tends to be obscured.
Hopes for the future?
Felix de Costa is the obvious choice with Bianchi as the talent at the rear of the grid.
Thought Bottas was going to hand Pastor his butt on a plate, but so far
#19
Posted 15 April 2013 - 00:35
The reason why all those new guys aren't convincing is because they haven't been in consistent front running cars. Only Grosjean is in a car capable of winning, even Perez isn't now that McLaren has faltered.
Doesn't help that Ferrari, Mercedes and RBR are gradually becoming one car teams by choice of the owners.
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#20
Posted 15 April 2013 - 00:45
It has to be hard for the current crop of young drivers because of the tyre situation. Let's face it even the more experienced drivers in teams with far larger budgets/resources are finding it difficult. What chance does the rookie have in shining straight away?
Some of my favorites currently in F1:
Hulkenberg
Grosjean (although somehow I feel he will end up with a career like Fisichella)
Ricciardo (subject to the whim of Marko)
Vergne (subject to the whim of Marko)
Bianchi
#21
Posted 15 April 2013 - 00:55
#22
Posted 15 April 2013 - 01:03
Every since Formula 1 got rid of testing, it is a lot harder to pinpoint talent. In the "old" days there was plenty of seat time available so if there was any doubt about a prospect, you would bring him for a day and the experts would know if it was a diammond on the rough or not.
The new generation seems to be more about those who have the money to compete. So talent is going to be hard to find.
#23
Posted 15 April 2013 - 01:37
#24
Posted 15 April 2013 - 02:18
Imo Vettel and Hamilton are yet to reach their prime, got a year or so until Hamilton does and about three until Vettel does. Just my opinion of course.Perez, Grosjean, Maldonado, di Resta, Guttierez, Ricciardo etc. These guys didn't really convince me about their championship calibre talent yet. They are either slow or error prones. Perez and Grosjean got top seats, but they look mediocre.
Guys like Alonso, Raikkonen, Button, Webber and Massa are getting older, and we need fresh new blood in the sport. However the newest generation is really worrying. Hamilton and Vettel are the best prospects for the future, but they are 2007 finds, that was 6 years ago. They are experienced drivers now and reached their prime. We haven't found any real deal since then. Maybe Hulkenberg, but he doesn't look like as awesome as the current topdrivers as well.
I think Bianchi looks promising for the future, a cluster of TR drivers look handy as well. Don't be so pessimistic
#25
Posted 15 April 2013 - 02:22
a) stupidly talented
b) entertaining - *atleast* as good as hamilton was at his peak. either doing something amazing, or having something happen
c) races as much as he can, ive heard he did between 120 and 200 races last season
d) races pretty much anything
#26
Posted 15 April 2013 - 02:53
They can't become top drivers if they believe they can do whatever they want, including crashing, hitting other cars just because they are in the racing line. What a stupid mentality, because the overtaking driver will logically be off line to his side.
If they don't know this basic awareness of racing... there is no chance for them to succeed. Also, theses new guys just cannot string together consistant race laps... And also suck at one lap pace!
Overall, they are lacking a LOT of Everything compared to the 5 Champions on the grid.
#27
Posted 15 April 2013 - 03:03
kyle larson.
a) stupidly talented
b) entertaining - *atleast* as good as hamilton was at his peak. either doing something amazing, or having something happen
c) races as much as he can, ive heard he did between 120 and 200 races last season
d) races pretty much anything
in b4 who
#28
Posted 15 April 2013 - 03:14
#29
Posted 15 April 2013 - 03:16
IMO this grid is really strong, up there with the 80's and all the stars ones will be there for 5 more years if they want. Plenty of time for new talents to show up before we run out of talents.
#30
Posted 15 April 2013 - 03:38
Antonio Felix Da Costa is on his way to F1, he is extremely talented; so is Jules Bianchi
I agree. Those two are the ONLY ones for me that have future WDC material.
#31
Posted 15 April 2013 - 04:02
Not much love for Hulkenburg, who's had some stunning drives in mediocre machinery?
Nor Perez, who's yet to really get into his stride with a poor McLaren car?
Nor Maldonado? Who's shown some huge speed at times.... he's inconsistent but has shown the raw talent is there.
And Grosjean, who many people seem to have written off, but there was a time when Hakkinen got involved in a great many tangles......
Its also worth remembering that Massa seemed appalling when he first entered the sport, I heard reports that he couldn't even keep the car going straight.......
#32
Posted 15 April 2013 - 04:16
I agree. Those two are the ONLY ones for me that have future WDC material.
I see the fickle internet fanboys have already ditched Hulkenberg after proclaiming him one of the top 5 or 10 drivers in the sport last year...
#33
Posted 15 April 2013 - 04:43
Lack of testing.
Perhaps, that said the current guise of GP2 is quite close to F1 and that experience should count for quite a bit, especially as it, well at least from time to time, seems that it is not speed the new comers are missing, its more about proximity racing.
When guys like Schumacher, Häkkinen, Räikkönen and Alonso (though I think he drove F3000) made their way the step was way bigger as none had really driven high powered open wheelers before sitting into F1.
Edited by Oho, 15 April 2013 - 04:46.
#34
Posted 15 April 2013 - 05:13
Valtteri Bottas
Jules Bianchi
Antonio Felix da Costa
Robin Frijns
Not such a bad list of talents as far as I'm concerned.
#35
Posted 15 April 2013 - 05:28
My response might not what you have been looking for, but really all what you need is probably top five in any given season, because under current system only about five cars is fighting the championship out on systematic basis whole year around, tire lottery notwithstanding; but that will go away. Five teams should have someone notable driver in their seat, the others will get lost in mediocrity, and if some from lower tier should be moved up, than he has to do what Vettel has done in his TR, or Hulk with his Sauber yesterday. TPs aren't stupid, and they do take notes. Not everyone is lucky as Hamilton was to get McLaren to his disposal on his first day, but you can work your work up, if you are truly a complete, blue blood package.Perez, Grosjean, Maldonado, di Resta, Guttierez, Ricciardo etc. These guys didn't really convince me about their championship calibre talent yet. They are either slow or error prones. Perez and Grosjean got top seats, but they look mediocre.
Guys like Alonso, Raikkonen, Button, Webber and Massa are getting older, and we need fresh new blood in the sport. However the newest generation is really worrying. Hamilton and Vettel are the best prospects for the future, but they are 2007 finds, that was 6 years ago. They are experienced drivers now and reached their prime. We haven't found any real deal since then. Maybe Hulkenberg, but he doesn't look like as awesome as the current topdrivers as well.
In terms of near future next to Vettel and Hulk, the other three - I am not entirely sure. I am thinking of but have not much trust in Rosberg, yet I could be wrong with him; too soon to tell this year. Gro is probably better than people give him credit, and like with Rosberg, he has to prove himself (he is too nervous at the moment). This year seems make or brake for him. Perez too is on probation, and like Vettel, he could be better than it shows at the moment. I do remember times when I was a Vettel's fan (with the other two or three guys, and his closest family. That has changed massively, despite some ups and downs). What worries me more are cases that occurred last year [Sauber, McLaren], when a sponsor has a leverage over the team, but that is another topic and another thread - pay drivers on whose sponsorship income the team is partially dependable for its existence in F1.
Edited by Sakae, 15 April 2013 - 05:33.
#36
Posted 15 April 2013 - 05:37
harsh i know...
#37
Posted 15 April 2013 - 07:40
I like what iam seeing with Jules Bianchi. Hopefully he can keep it up. I also think these tires don't help an upcoming driver to show their true pace. Can you imagine Hamilton the rookie driving these tires the way he drove the bridgestones in 2007?
This.
As pointed, current 'second' generation seem to collide to often on the track, therefore losing their own chances.
#38
Posted 15 April 2013 - 07:47
Which he probably wont, of course.
China was the first weekend Danny Ric's had a clean run without car issues, and voilà!
#39
Posted 15 April 2013 - 08:02
You just have to wait for another year for Félix da Costa to arrive.
He's just in the same position as Ricciardo in 2010 and Vergne in 2011, ie. Red Bull's next big thing.
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#40
Posted 15 April 2013 - 08:07
#41
Posted 15 April 2013 - 08:17
#42
Posted 15 April 2013 - 08:32
Championship winning drivers don't come every year...Schumi,Hill,Mika came during 1991-92....then Jack Villenueve in 1996....that's all for that decade...Button made debut in 2000..then 2001 was modern F1's golden year...3 drivers with such ability arrived...Alonso,Kimi and Montoya...two of them later became WDC and other one is perhaps one of the best not to win WDC...after that in 2006 came Kubica and next year Vettel and Lewis....and in all these years only Massa and Webber managed to come very close to win the title....Fisci,Trulli,Ralf and Ruben were all good at best,but not enough talented...Perez, Grosjean, Maldonado, di Resta, Guttierez, Ricciardo etc. These guys didn't really convince me about their championship calibre talent yet. They are either slow or error prones. Perez and Grosjean got top seats, but they look mediocre.
Guys like Alonso, Raikkonen, Button, Webber and Massa are getting older, and we need fresh new blood in the sport. However the newest generation is really worrying. Hamilton and Vettel are the best prospects for the future, but they are 2007 finds, that was 6 years ago. They are experienced drivers now and reached their prime. We haven't found any real deal since then. Maybe Hulkenberg, but he doesn't look like as awesome as the current topdrivers as well.
so arrival of long lasting talents have always been sporadic in F1 scene.....current crops of young drivers are not that bad...and at least Hulk definitely has ability to become a champion....F1 have just became little difficult...you have to really learn the art of driving..raw pace doesn't help much as it did during those years of refueling and tyre abundance....
Edited by aray, 15 April 2013 - 08:34.
#43
Posted 15 April 2013 - 08:46
I'm not worried at all.
IMO this grid is really strong, up there with the 80's and all the stars ones will be there for 5 more years if they want. Plenty of time for new talents to show up before we run out of talents.
This. Jack Brabham was still winning races in his early 40s, Graham Hill was still a respected driver in the early 70s, Alain Prost and Nigel Mansell were both knocking on 40 when they took their last (or only) WDC, Schumi was still a competitor when he was 38. I could see Fred Kimi & Jenson carrying on until the end of this decade and still being competitive. That's plenty of time for upcoming drivers to challenge them.
#44
Posted 15 April 2013 - 09:28
Webber was never really championship material until he hit the RBR drive, before that he struggled against a Heidfeld who left the sport with zero wins. Massa had exactly 1 and a half great years, and was never really a match to the 5 world champion drivers mentioned, before or since. At least until very recently.
As for the WDC drivers:
Vettel was fast in a great Toro Rosso and still managed to crash out of his first 4 races in the early laps. After rear ending Webber at Fuji in 2007. And he crashed his way through 2010, look at Spa that year where he took out Button and another driver at the Bus stop.
Alonso had a handful of accidents at Minardi in 2001, but was so far back due to the car, no one noticed. In fact, Bianchi seems to be building up to a better season in a backmarker than Alonso's 2001, touch wood. I still recall him crashing out of the 2004 Monaco GP due to a hot head move near, was it Montoya?
Button had some silly accidents in 2000 (Monza anyone?) and then got thoroughly beaten by Fisi in 2001.
Kimi... is harder to remember any crashes that were his fault from early on. His cars just fell apart . He drove over a Toro Rosso at Hungary 2006, and had some brain fades in 2008, though.
Hamilton had a great deal of crashes in 2010 and 2011 that were his fault.
I'd like to see anyone explain how Hulkenberg with 2 seasons experience is any worse than them after 2 years (except maybe Hamilton, who had a rather fast car to start with).
Edited by Jimisgod, 15 April 2013 - 09:28.
#45
Posted 15 April 2013 - 09:37
#46
Posted 15 April 2013 - 09:46
But I'm with the majority that thinks this is just a poor generation, nothing unseen previously in F1. It's just like the 1985-1990 bunch that brought us Alesi and Herbert as its peak talents, or the 1993-1995 with the "great" Barrichello, Coulthard, Frentzen and Panis. For a whole decade from '85 to '95 only 3 champions arrived in the shape of Schumacher, Hakkinen and Hill, all in a tiny pocket of time within 1991 and 1992. Doesn't mean champions have to come in clusters but it does mean champions are rare.
I am pretty underwhelmed with the current lot. I've given up on Grosjean, I think his mind's not right and he's throwing away his final chance this season. Pérez threatened to become a star with a few great performances last year, but he's looked pretty poor in a McLaren so far - can still turn it around of course, but to the extent of becoming a top driver? di Resta is good but not great, solid #2 in a top team at best. Likewise for his older team-mate Sutil. Vergne and Ricciardo, I remain convinced they're better than the previous infamous STR pairings of Liuzzi/Speed and Alguersuari/Buemi, and could have decent careers, but they are not THERE because neither are fully 100% consistent - there's always one of them who's 3 or 4 tenths down on qualy or is overshadowed by the other in the race and it's never the same guy. Bottas hasn't had a fair shot yet but he's not exactly shown world champion skills yet.
Are there any Schumachers or Sennas here? No, this is an Alesi-at-best lot. Pérez does sort of remind me of Alesi, weirdly.
There are however 2 guys in the current field I would be reticent in completely ruling out, because they're schooling their team-mates by rather massive differences, albeit again, those team-mates are total rookies with dubious talent and zero experience. This is Hulkenberg and Bianchi of course. I would be more confident on Hulk given his superb pre-F1 record and the fact this is the 2nd team in which he shines this high, however is he an Hamilton/Vettel/Schumacher type of driver or just a Nico Rosberg/Mark Webber/Gerhard Berger type of very-strong-#2? Or even a Fisichella kind, god of midfield but mentally unable at the front? I cannot tell for sure although I think he'll fit somewhere within the 2 previous categories and not the later.
Even if Hulk and Bianchi fail, we are probably due a star or two soon. And I am seeing an abnormally strong lot outside of F1 at the moment. I would be biased towards Felix da Costa, I can see why people think he's just like Ricciardo and Vergne, but those guys whilst immensely impressive in WSR did so in flashes, whilst Felix da Costa has been doing it pretty much every race for the past year. Robin Frijns I sense isn't 100% ready, and will suffer from sitting out this season, but what he's achieved so far is absolutely sensational and a rarity. Stoffel Vandoorne is looking like a Belgian clone of Frijns too, and perhaps without that hint of questionable attitude the Dutchman has. In GP2, Mitch Evans is doing some impressive stuff for a 18 year old. I would be keep a very close eye on these 4, whilst not completely ruling out other fairly impressive kids like James Calado, Felipe Nasr and Kevin Magnussen albeit I feel those are the journeyman of this generation.
I think we're due a new world champion soon, but maybe you just have to wait a little longer. It also doesn't help that we have a whole 5 champions in the grid and even the oldest of them like Raikkonen and Button could still easily race for another 5 years. But I firmly believe within the next 3 seasons yet another top star will emerge - fingers crossed it's Felix da Costa. Just wait and see.
#47
Posted 15 April 2013 - 09:49
More faux-nostalgia bullshit.
Webber was never really championship material until he hit the RBR drive, before that he struggled against a Heidfeld who left the sport with zero wins. Massa had exactly 1 and a half great years, and was never really a match to the 5 world champion drivers mentioned, before or since. At least until very recently.
As for the WDC drivers:
Vettel was fast in a great Toro Rosso and still managed to crash out of his first 4 races in the early laps. After rear ending Webber at Fuji in 2007. And he crashed his way through 2010, look at Spa that year where he took out Button and another driver at the Bus stop.
Alonso had a handful of accidents at Minardi in 2001, but was so far back due to the car, no one noticed. In fact, Bianchi seems to be building up to a better season in a backmarker than Alonso's 2001, touch wood. I still recall him crashing out of the 2004 Monaco GP due to a hot head move near, was it Montoya?
Button had some silly accidents in 2000 (Monza anyone?) and then got thoroughly beaten by Fisi in 2001.
Kimi... is harder to remember any crashes that were his fault from early on. His cars just fell apart . He drove over a Toro Rosso at Hungary 2006, and had some brain fades in 2008, though.
Hamilton had a great deal of crashes in 2010 and 2011 that were his fault.
I'd like to see anyone explain how Hulkenberg with 2 seasons experience is any worse than them after 2 years (except maybe Hamilton, who had a rather fast car to start with).
I agree about Hulkenberg. He's been very impressive in all 3 teams he's been in so far and I'm sure if he's given a top car he'd be right up there. Also agree on Bianchi. Very impressive performances at the back.
On Alonso, it was when he tried to lap Ralf on the outside of the tunnel at Monaco. Very silly move.
Edited by PayasYouRace, 15 April 2013 - 09:50.
#48
Posted 15 April 2013 - 10:13
On Alonso, it was when he tried to lap Ralf on the outside of the tunnel at Monaco. Very silly move.
Old times...but he had little options there, RSchumacher let him pass inside the tunnel taking the insde...
Anyway, I think the current generation will last for some time now.
We have again something like the big 4 we had in the 80s with Senna, Prost, Mansell, Piquet and M.Schumacher joining them (replacing Piquet) after some years. We have now Vettel, Hamilton, Kimi and Alonso, plus a bounch of very good drivers like Button, Webber, etc... The current and next 5 or 6 years are quite safe. The next generation? we'll see. Perez seems to me a failure, he had some remarcable races in 2012 more thanks to the Sauber strenghts with tires than himself, (I think) but we´ll see. Bianchi seems to be a good one, but has only 3 races and in a Marussia, WAY too early to get any conclusion. In the current grid I don't see any future star or multi WDC, nor in Hulkenberg nor Di Resta...
Edited by Cesc, 15 April 2013 - 10:13.
#49
Posted 15 April 2013 - 10:19
#50
Posted 15 April 2013 - 10:36
If we had this thread in early '91, we'd probably all have been concerned about a lack of a new generation that looked like being able to displace the Senna-Prost-Mansell-Piquet quartet.
Ha, quite true. And was that a few months earlier, we'd all be further wrong as we'd back Jean Alesi to become the next world champion, whilst a few months later we'd all be a lot more correct by backing Michael Schumacher.
And of course, we wouldn't be ruling out completely Mika Hakkinen at that point as he'd be on the "mildly promising" list - but only on equal footing with the likes of Johnny Herbert, Stefano Modena, Ivan Capelli, JJ Lehto and Karl Wendlinger...