127 replies to this topic

[BackOnTop]

This has nothing to do with Team orders stupidity and stuff like that, just a reference to why everyone should back off and leave drivers to do the decision making on track, in a racing situation. The 5 World Champions on the grid are not dumb to crash and put themselves in harms way...or harm the teams results.

If RedBull Racing, Fans & media had it there way for 2013 sitting behind the pitwall & lazying around their couches instead of drivers doing it on track... the current WDC standings would be:-
1- Kimi Räikkönen- 49
2- Sebastian Vettel- 45
3- Fernando Alonso- 43
4- Lewis Hamilton- 40
5- Mark Webber- 33
6- Felipe Massa- 30

Instead, since a driver decided his destiny is rightly in his own hands, the standings read:-
1- Sebastian Vettel- 52
2- Kimi Räikkönen- 49
3- Fernando Alonso- 43
4- Lewis Hamilton- 40
5- Felipe Massa- 30
6- Mark Webber- 26

Edited by BackOnTop, 16 April 2013 - 08:37.

[Meanbeakin]

Any bets as to how quickly this thread gets closed?

My money is on 10 minutes.

[Baddoer]

Epic.

[Sennasational]

At this point I just feel embarrassed for you.

[klyster]

So we should what? The five world champions have all had daft moments, we should let the drivers disobey team orders because Vettel wouldn't be at the front?

He disobeyed team orders, whether or not team orders are good or not is not the issue, this particular driver thinks he's bigger than the team.

He comes across as a selfish little prick to me........(a very fast talented selfish prick mind you...)

Edited by klyster, 15 April 2013 - 07:09.

[Kingshark]

I have a feeling that this year will be Mark Webber's year. He will shockingly and convincingly beat Vettel, in the same way Felipe beat Kimi in 2008. Mark shall take the WDC fight all the way until the final round in Brazil, where he loses it by 6 points; leaving RBR to reflect on Malaysia earlier the year where Seb cost Mark 7 points, and respond accordingly.











sarcasm allert

[Sennasational]

So we should what? The five world champions have all had daft moments, we should let the drivers disobey team orders because Vettel wouldn't be at the front?

He disobeyed team orders, whether or not team orders are good or not is not the issue, this particular driver thinks he's bigger than the team.

He comes across as a selfish little prick to me........

If there's a case for anyone needing to follow team orders, it's Vettel after turkey 2010, ironically.

This thread is obviously going to be locked soon though, which is a relief. Funnily enough, it's the people defending Vettel that keep reminding everyone of what an arse he was. I don't see anyone else even bringing it up anymore, I think we just needed a race to be past caring.

[DS27]

Insightful.

[NotSoSilentBob]

Now, if Mark and Seb had taken each other out in Malaysia

Raikonnen 53
Hamilton 50
Alonso 43
Massa 35
Vettel 27
Rosberg 18
Button 14
Webber 8

Amazing how the non-World Champion Webber managed to behave himself....

[PayasYouRace]

This has nothing to do with Team orders stupidity and stuff like that

That's exactly what this is about.

[2ms]

So we should what? The five world champions have all had daft moments, we should let the drivers disobey team orders because Vettel wouldn't be at the front?

He disobeyed team orders, whether or not team orders are good or not is not the issue, this particular driver thinks he's bigger than the team.

He comes across as a selfish little prick to me........(a very fast talented selfish prick mind you...)

Do you think he's as much of a selfish little prick as Senna or Schumacher though?

[TheMidnight]

That's exactly what this is about.

Can someone please explain what this thread is about? Is this some in joke that's washing over my head?

All I'm seeing is two points totals based on ignoring or following team orders....meh???

[PayasYouRace]

Can someone please explain what this thread is about? Is this some in joke that's washing over my head?

All I'm seeing is two points totals based on ignoring or following team orders....meh???

Vettel fan makes case for team orders being bad by pointing out that Seb is leading the championship after 3/19 races by being a poor sportsman and team player and ignoring them for selfish reasons.

You know, same old stuff. Nothing to see at all.

[MirNyet]

This is where we all as 'fans' fail - F1 isn't just about the drivers - its about the team which the driver is a very visible part of. Vettel sits in a Red Bull Racing car - there isn't a single part in that vehicle he makes, paints, polishes or prepares. Not one single part in tens of thousands of parts. Hundreds of people work very hard to make the best car possible so that he can race it - in terms of results he is no more important than pretty much any of them - he is simply a performance component. Red Bull had a safe 1-2, at a team level it doesn't matter which way that 1-2 fell, they still get the points and ultimately the prize money those points bring. Vettel's actions in putting himself ahead of the teams needs and work risked both those points, the prize money (which is needed to keep the company running) and the overall result. For this he is wrong in every way shape and form. The team gets 'nothing' from a WDC other than the result, nothing! Vettel choose to put personal glory ahead of the 600 or so people who work tirelessly to make those cars that earned him his 3 WDC - selfish, childish and reckless.

So, no - the driver shouldn't be allowed to take such decisions as without the car under his backside he would be nothing and he owes respect and obedience to the team that put it there. Also - we should all keep in mind that the driver is the easiest component to swap out for a different one - they are not glued into the car, they slot out quite easily of their own accord - and as good as glory boy is - he is not the only one would who gets good results out of that car.

Edited by MirNyet, 15 April 2013 - 08:36.

[klyster]

Do you think he's as much of a selfish little prick as Senna or Schumacher though?

Senna yes, Schumi, back in the day, no, though he has a few years to swing either way..

And +1 to MirNyet's post.

Edited by klyster, 15 April 2013 - 08:37.

[mnmracer]

It's a story at the end of the year, when we can really judge the importance of those 7 points. There's little point in distracting 7 points every race.

The real 7-points story of Vettel is that many people have the most hypocrite double standard possible when it comes to drivers they like/dislike. People don't care about a driver disobeying teamorders, they applaud it; they only care that this driver they already hate did it.

[Kelateboy]

Any bets as to how quickly this thread gets closed?

My money is on 10 minutes.

You lost your bet!!

[learningtobelost]

Wait. By finishing ahead of Webber, Vettel scored more points? Why weren't the media reporting this? *bombshell*

[Realyn]

Now, if Mark and Seb had taken each other out in Malaysia

Raikonnen 53
Hamilton 50
Alonso 43
Massa 35
Vettel 27
Rosberg 18
Button 14
Webber 8

Amazing how the non-World Champion Webber managed to behave himself....

How amazing not to crash into someone on purpose and risk not only his life but also the ones of spectators and marshalls. Good point right there.

Vettel choose to put personal glory ahead of the 600 or so people who work tirelessly to make those cars that earned him his 3 WDC - selfish, childish and reckless.

While I agree with the rest of your post - you are the saying the 600 people built the car and then even drove it for Vettel? All he had to do was show up and take the praise?

Edited by Realyn, 15 April 2013 - 10:28.

[MrFondue]

While I agree with the rest of your post - you are the saying the 600 people built the car and then even drove it for Vettel? All he had to do was show up and take the praise?

So that's not how it works?

[MirNyet]

While I agree with the rest of your post - you are the saying the 600 people built the car and then even drove it for Vettel? All he had to do was show up and take the praise?

No, perhaps 'helped earn him' would have been a better phrasing. However, the car is equally as important as the driver these days, so the team is just as important too by that equation as they after all design and make the cars. No driver is bigger than the team.

[Realyn]

No, perhaps 'helped earn him' would have been a better phrasing. However, the car is equally as important as the driver these days, so the team is just as important too by that equation as they after all design and make the cars. No driver is bigger than the team.

Or simply "supplied" him the car if you are talking about driver and car beeing equally important. There's quite the difference between that and "made him earn", "help him" and so on.

[Jan.W]

It's a story at the end of the year, when we can really judge the importance of those 7 points. There's little point in distracting 7 points every race.

The real 7-points story of Vettel is that many people have the most hypocrite double standard possible when it comes to drivers they like/dislike. People don't care about a driver disobeying teamorders, they applaud it; they only care that this driver they already hate did it.

[maverick69]

Watching the people get lairy
It's not very pretty I tell thee
Walking through town is quite scary
It's not very sensible either
A friend of a friend he got beaten
He looked the wrong way at a policeman
Would never of happened to Smeaton
An old leodensian
I predict a riot
I predict a riot
I predict a riot
I predict a riot

[DILLIGAF]

Do you think he's as much of a selfish little prick as Senna or Schumacher though?

Absolutely. Many drivers are selfish & egotistical. But some, like Vettel & Schumi, are more selfish than others.

[BackOnTop]

This is where we all as 'fans' fail - F1 isn't just about the drivers - its about the team which the driver is a very visible part of. Vettel sits in a Red Bull Racing car - there isn't a single part in that vehicle he makes, paints, polishes or prepares. Not one single part in tens of thousands of parts. Hundreds of people work very hard to make the best car possible so that he can race it - in terms of results he is no more important than pretty much any of them - he is simply a performance component. Red Bull had a safe 1-2, at a team level it doesn't matter which way that 1-2 fell, they still get the points and ultimately the prize money those points bring. Vettel's actions in putting himself ahead of the teams needs and work risked both those points, the prize money (which is needed to keep the company running) and the overall result. For this he is wrong in every way shape and form. The team gets 'nothing' from a WDC other than the result, nothing! Vettel choose to put personal glory ahead of the 600 or so people who work tirelessly to make those cars that earned him his 3 WDC - selfish, childish and reckless.

So, no - the driver shouldn't be allowed to take such decisions as without the car under his backside he would be nothing and he owes respect and obedience to the team that put it there. Also - we should all keep in mind that the driver is the easiest component to swap out for a different one - they are not glued into the car, they slot out quite easily of their own accord - and as good as glory boy is - he is not the only one would who gets good results out of that car.

Both RedBull & Mercedes (Lauda & Wolff if not Brawn) has already been out last week saying they have scraped team orders with immediate effect!!! So in a way, it is quite obvious that the teams must have arrived at a conclusion that WCC is important to them while WDC is important to their Drivers.

If Malaysia orders were so good that every driver must adhere to it... then why did the teams scrap it?? Leaving Vettel's rebellion aside, Mercedes drivers followed the orders, so why aren't Merceds sticking with it for the whole season??

Like has been suggested in OP, you can't go racing predicting doomsday scenario between your drivers every weekend. So many people are complaining about the tyres being artificial... but what RBR & Mercedes tried to do was even more artificial as I suggested with the points tally difference. RBR as a team still have the maximum WCC points they have scored... but tried to rob a World Championship contender 7 points to his name. That's not selfish, it's mediocre thinking. Nothing to do with team orders etc... just very bad thinking overall.

As for your last opinion...it can easily be reversed and said that without a Driver, the car is nothing but a show piece. The team has a duty as well to think for it's drivers wellness... not treat them like servants as you are suggesting.

Edited by BackOnTop, 15 April 2013 - 11:06.

[Realyn]

Both RedBull & Mercedes (Lauda & Wolff if not Brawn)

Wolff said pretty much the exact opposite in China.

[Watkins74]

Another one of those "Alternate Reality" thread's to put ones favorite driver at the top of the tree.

[BackOnTop]

Another one of those "Alternate Reality" thread's to put ones favorite driver at the top of the tree.

I would have loved it if Vettel actually had followed Multi-21 exactly for the reason you suggest and that standing was the current reality.

Unfortunately, he did the right thing... and I wouldn't expect any less from any other drivers as well. That's why Massa & Rosberg are pretty low at the moment if you notice... by following team orders (when not necessary), they become meek & weak over time.

And Rubens & David didn't actually proper into major WDC contenders either. All I am saying is that RBR tried to rob Vettel 7 Championship points for no apparent reason... except maybe for their own selfish reasons not related to WDC.

Edited by BackOnTop, 15 April 2013 - 11:23.

[Zava]

Another one of those "Alternate Reality" thread's to put ones favorite driver at the top of the tree.

how? he is saying that if Vettel followed the orders, he would've already lost the WDC lead (though I think race 3 is way too soon to be doing the maths), so good for him.

edit: damn I'm slow

Edited by Zava, 15 April 2013 - 11:18.

[PaulTodd]

I think this "if people don't get silly" will be an interesting subject. Ok So Vettel would of been "2nd but it's only 3 races in to the championship and 1 race since the multi-21 fiasco. So far it looks as if Vettel was right to do what he did because he is leading with more points because of his actions.

But like I said it's only race 3 and he has yet to be in a racing situation with Webber just yet, Maybe he might lose more than 7pts if they fight for a position near the end of the season.

[tifosi]

Vettel fan makes case for team orders being bad by pointing out that Seb is leading the championship after 3/19 races by being a poor sportsman and team player and ignoring them for selfish reasons.

You know, same old stuff. Nothing to see at all.

Thanks, saved me from typing it.

[mnmracer]

I've thought about it for a bit, and you're seeing this from the wrong angle.
If we believe what our 'hail teamorders' fellow forummers are telling us, if Vettel had not taken the win in Malaysia, Red Bull would not have had to screw Webber over in qualifying. As Webber is always better when the car is not perfect, if he had been given a fair chance, he would have obviously won from pole, taking 7 valuable points from Alonso, while only taking 2 more from Vettel. Thus, the standings would then have been:

1- Mark Webber- 58
2- Kimi Räikkönen- 46
3- Sebastian Vettel- 43
4- Fernando Alonso- 36
5- Lewis Hamilton- 38
6- Felipe Massa- 28

[tifosi]

All I am saying is that RBR tried to rob Vettel 7 Championship points for no apparent reason... except maybe for their own selfish reasons not related to WDC.

You don;t know that at all. If Weber hadn't been put at a disadvantage, then Vettel may not have done anything.

[pdac]

This has nothing to do with Team orders stupidity and stuff like that, just a reference to why everyone should back off and leave drivers to do the decision making on track, in a racing situation. The 5 World Champions on the grid are not dumb to crash and put themselves in harms way...or harm the teams results.

If RedBull Racing, Fans & media had it there way for 2013 sitting behind the pitwall & lazying around their couches instead of drivers doing it on track... the current WDC standings would be:-
1- Kimi Räikkönen- 49
2- Sebastian Vettel- 45
3- Fernando Alonso- 43
4- Lewis Hamilton- 40
5- Mark Webber- 33
6- Felipe Massa- 30

Instead, since a driver decided his destiny is rightly in his own hands, the standings read:-
1- Sebastian Vettel- 52
2- Kimi Räikkönen- 49
3- Fernando Alonso- 43
4- Lewis Hamilton- 40
5- Felipe Massa- 30
6- Mark Webber- 26

So the logic here is that the team should put all of their eggs in one basket. The last GP Webber failed to score a point because of an issue in the pits. That issue could quite have easily happened to Vettel (unless you believe in conspiracy theories). Surely, at this stage in the championship it's best for a team to have both of their drivers in the running for the WDC championship?

[Sennasational]

You don;t know that at all. If Weber hadn't been put at a disadvantage, then Vettel may not have been able to do anything.

Fixed

Webber kept Vettel at bay all race, until he was at a disadvantage. Vettel wasn't following team orders that day, so when he complained about Mark going too slow, it becomes pretty obvious that if he was able to, he would have just overtaken him then and there. Makes his 'get him out of the way' comment look even more ridiculous.

Like I said in my comment which got deleted though, it's strange that the Vettel fans keep opening this issue, you'd think they'd keep quiet and hope most people just forget and move on...which is exactly what everyone had done after finally getting another GP to talk about. Yet here we are again.

[sharo]

Fixed

Webber kept Vettel at bay all race, until he was at a disadvantage. Vettel wasn't following team orders that day, so when he complained about Mark going too slow, it becomes pretty obvious that if he was able to, he would have just overtaken him then and there. Makes his 'get him out of the way' comment look even more ridiculous.

Like I said in my comment which got deleted though, it's strange that the Vettel fans keep opening this issue, you'd think they'd keep quiet and hope most people just forget and move on...which is exactly what everyone had done after finally getting another GP to talk about. Yet here we are again.

Driving in the traffic after a car going at ox cart's speed on green light, I sometimes say the same words. Although I do not have radio link, nor pit wall to hear me

And on more serious note, did you miss by chance the instruction from the pit wall to Vettel to sit behind and wait?

[MirNyet]

Both RedBull & Mercedes (Lauda & Wolff if not Brawn) has already been out last week saying they have scraped team orders with immediate effect!!! So in a way, it is quite obvious that the teams must have arrived at a conclusion that WCC is important to them while WDC is important to their Drivers.

If Malaysia orders were so good that every driver must adhere to it... then why did the teams scrap it?? Leaving Vettel's rebellion aside, Mercedes drivers followed the orders, so why aren't Merceds sticking with it for the whole season??

Like has been suggested in OP, you can't go racing predicting doomsday scenario between your drivers every weekend. So many people are complaining about the tyres being artificial... but what RBR & Mercedes tried to do was even more artificial as I suggested with the points tally difference. RBR as a team still have the maximum WCC points they have scored... but tried to rob a World Championship contender 7 points to his name. That's not selfish, it's mediocre thinking. Nothing to do with team orders etc... just very bad thinking overall.

As for your last opinion...it can easily be reversed and said that without a Driver, the car is nothing but a show piece. The team has a duty as well to think for it's drivers wellness... not treat them like servants as you are suggesting.

Mercedes have done no such things, and both teams have clearly stated that if there is a car issue - then the drivers will still be told to hold station (which is what happened in that race - something people are quickly ignoring). At the end of the day, fanatical behaviour aside - the reality is these drivers are employee's and race for the team first, and themselves second.

[flaviob]

Webber couldn't do anything with the great car the team gave him:

2009: 4th place
2010: 3rd place
2011: 3rd place
2012: 6th place

So it was indeed a good move for the team that their three-time WDC prevented them from wasting points to Webber, because at the end of the season they might need them to win the WDC again with Vettel, while Webber will most probably be lurking again somewhere at 3rd to 6th place.

So yes, Vettel is a great team player, he saved them from throwing away valuable points.

Webber not so, as he shown most obviously in Brazil 2012, when he nearly wrecked their chances of winning the WDC out of pure selfishness.

[Seanspeed]

The 5 World Champions on the grid are not dumb to crash and put themselves in harms way...or harm the teams results.

[Roscoe]

Here's what the championship would look like if aliens abducted all but the last 3 running drivers on the penultimate lap of every race:

Pic - 75
Chilton - 51
VDG - 48
Everyone Else - 0

From this I can confirm that team orders are both ruining F1 whilst simultaneously also being the best thing that ever existed.

[maverick69]

Here's what the championship would look like if aliens abducted all but the last 3 running drivers on the penultimate lap of every race:

Pic - 75
Chilton - 51
VDG - 48
Everyone Else - 0

From this I can confirm that team orders are both ruining F1 whilst simultaneously also being the best thing that ever existed.

Lol. So true.

So are you making your F1 debut in Bahrain as Lewis said - or are you going to rock up in Spain?

[mnmracer]

This didn't stop McLaren from pussying around.

[Seanspeed]

This didn't stop McLaren from pussying around.

Dun dun DUN DUUN DUUUUN. Vettel DEFENSE FORCE. Ready for action.

Spoiler

Your post is irrelevant to my point, sorry

Edited by Seanspeed, 15 April 2013 - 13:10.

[BackOnTop]

The 5 World Champions on the grid are not dumb to crash and put themselves in harms way...or harm the teams results.

@ Turkey 2010, Sebastian Vettel was not one of the World Champions on the grid.

Subsequently, he won the World Championship at the end of 2010. If taken that photo into context, that's the same season Redbull won their first Championship.

So if you posted that photo to prove how drivers 'lost' something for the team... it certainly wasn't the WDC & WCC for Vettel & RedBull. More reason for RBR to trust their triple World Champion since Turkey 2010 happened, to score that 7 extra points... which he eventually did.

Hence, right now,, all his rivals (must add their fans as well) are staring at Sebastian Vettel's name on top of the WDC Table with a 3 point lead instead of a 4 point deficit.

Edited by BackOnTop, 15 April 2013 - 14:17.

[krea]

Absolutely. Many drivers are selfish & egotistical. But some, like Vettel & Schumi, are more selfish than others.

Interesting how you didn't write Senna.

Although he was a big asshole - punching another driver for nothing etc.

[PayasYouRace]

There are no world champions in that photo.

[Sausage]

Here's what the championship would look like if aliens abducted all but the last 3 running drivers on the penultimate lap of every race:

Pic - 75
Chilton - 51
VDG - 48
Everyone Else - 0

From this I can confirm that team orders are both ruining F1 whilst simultaneously also being the best thing that ever existed.

You mean the aliens currently stationed here saved F1 by ignoring orders from their home planet to abduct all but the last 3

But anyway, OP don't act like all fans and media were against him, plenty of support for him here and elsewhere even if they weren't fans.

Edited by Sausage, 15 April 2013 - 14:23.

[BackOnTop]

There are no world champions in that photo.

Yet when he becomes one, and does it for 3 years running... the team decided to still treat him like a kid who'll crash at every opportunity.

A bit like Mclaren-Hamilton relationship syndrom.

Teams must realize giving senseless orders/ child treatment to any World Champions against their WDC aspirations is a bad idea!
In 2010 Alonso screamed "this is ridiculous"; Kimi told his team to keep quite; Hamilton said goodbye & Vettel simply ignored them big time. F1 needs more of this on track by drivers then Multi-21's by teams..

Edited by BackOnTop, 15 April 2013 - 15:12.

[F1Johnny]

Do you think he's as much of a selfish little prick as Senna or Schumacher though?

Senna would have done the same thing IMO, but I believe Schumacher would not have done it.