127 replies to this topic

[BackOnTop]

But that's very much selective memory on Vettel's part. What about Canada 2010, and Japan 2010 for example? Both times Mark had the stronger car late in the race and was asked to hold station. Which he did.

Vettel and Webber weren't champions then, & nor were RBR.

A lot has changed in 3+ years since then for Vettel & RBR & team dynamics to make a reasonable counter-argument using 2010. Vettel felt he deserves to score more points, fought & overtook the win. Fair play from a guy who knows how to win championships, unlike the driver in front who couldn't shake Vettel in the race & open a big enough gap.

Mark was 'too slow' for Vettel's liking, and Team's interference with Multi-21 wasn't going to save him. The world will explode the day Ferrari invoke Multi-21 for Alonso to stay behind a slower Massa. Not that I think Alonso will 'understand' this crazy Anti-Teamorder that stops him from scoring 7 extra points.

Edited by BackOnTop, 16 April 2013 - 17:16.

[mymemoryfails]

different day.... same ****

mymemoryfails

[NotSoSilentBob]

You live in an alternate reality champ. I could completely pull that post apart.... but what's the point?

Whether Vettel was a WDC or not then is completely irrelevant. Webber was in prime position in 2010 to take that title and RBR asked him to hold station and sacrifice the chance to take good points even when Mark was faster - and he did so, and more than once.

As for not being able to 'shake' Vettel in Malaysia .... wtf??? Both drivers were driving to a team-directed delta each lap, to save the tyres. Mark had no problems 'shaking' Vettel when Vettel had his whine down the radio.

[ThomFi]

There's more to it than that, as i'm sure you know. There's this thing called "momentum". Webber was on the mother of all rolls at that point, and would have firmly had the team behind him if he'd won 3 races in a row. Webber's confidence would have been sky high, and confidence - as we all have seen - is everything for Webber.

Instead, he's got the team castigating him publicly for a collision that a far greater % of observers felt was his teammate's fault. Talk about deflating!

Collisions are part of the sport and sometimes, it even happens between two teammates. These are situations a driver has to cope with. If he is emotionally so fragile, and I don't think he is, that things like that are throwing him off course, F1 would be the wrong place for him.
In Korea, he binned the car because he went to fast into a corner in the wet and suffered a big blow to his championship hopes. I don't think that had anything to do with Turkey. In Brasil he had a good race, but succumbed to a narrow defeat and Abu Dhabi was one of his weaker tracks.

Edited by ThomFi, 16 April 2013 - 14:15.

[bourbon]

But that's very much selective memory on Vettel's part. What about Canada 2010, and Japan 2010 for example? Both times Mark had the stronger car late in the race and was asked to hold station. Which he did.

To my mind, the main motivation for Vettel in Malaysia was Brazil 12. Mark actively worked against Seb when the WDC was on the line, and Mark had absolutely nothing to gain from it. That is why I think getting the 7 points was not Seb's only incentive - although I agree with BackOnTop that it should have been a consideration for the team in any case.

Edited by bourbon, 16 April 2013 - 14:49.

[kenkip]

Interesting points being raised here,with the championship being this close i think if Seb nicks it with less than 7 points it will be a stroke of genius.
I dont believe the 'payback to Webber' theories.If Vettel had a problem with Webber's antics (mind you we do not know the full story) in Brazil '12 and Silverstone '11 he would have settled it there and then,especialy if you consider the 'clout' he carries in RBR.
He simply looked at the big picture,saw the 7 points were important and went for the gap,not anticipating the reaction from the team,Mark,fans and the media.His first instinct was to apologise ( I would have done the same) but it seems that he went home and in those three weeks,considered his actions soberly and saw(according to him) they were justifyed. Hence his unapologetic stance in china.
Bottom-line,he doesnt give a **** what we lot think,he made his descion and he seems ready to live with the consequences(bad press,hate from fans,a divided team.)
I think thats where i respect him,he had to make an unpopular decsion,and he made it and he has moved on and frankly we should to.

[NotSoSilentBob]

In Korea, he binned the car because he went too fast into a corner in the wet and suffered a big blow to his championship hopes. I don't think that had anything to do with Turkey. In Brasil he had a good race, but succumbed to a narrow defeat and Abu Dhabi was one of his weaker tracks.

Yes, but you're ignoring that he would have banked those points, and potentially this makes it less pressure-soaked later in the campaign. If he overtakes Vettel in Canada, there's a couple more points. If he had a go in Japan, as he wanted to, possibly there's another 7 there and 7 off Vettel's total. Which in reverse is BackOnTop's point in this thread.

The difference is Webber was happy to defer to the team's judgement, and it cost him in the end.

[NotSoSilentBob]

Mark actively worked against Seb when the WDC was on the line

I don't like sweeping generalisations *generally*, but you Vettel fans have really talked yourselves into that position over the past 3 and a bit weeks. What was conjecture, is suddenly now irrefutable FACT!

I don't think Mark *actively* worked against Vettel at the Brazil 2012 start at all. He might not have given Vettel the cleanest run, but as stated in numerous posts '**** happens' at a race start and any driver's first port of call is to ensure they make it thru turn 1 without damage, not be a guide dog for their teammate. And even IF (and it's a big IF) Mark had '**** Seb' in his mind at the time he more than made up for it later in the race by diving out of the way when there was a Vettel sandwich between him & Kobayashi at the restart, and then letting him thru very easily later in the race.

I think Seb apologised with some genuineness after Malaysia, but then went away & talked to Schumi, and has now concocted a story to justify it all by blaming Webber for whatever sliver of evidence there is that Webber didn't go out of his way to assist Vettel in Brazil. Conveniently ignoring that team orders assisted him during his 2010 title run.

Edited by NotSoSilentBob, 16 April 2013 - 15:16.

[Atreiu]

Ifs and buts, the pressure soaked theory is a very thin stretch of how things panned out.
Vettel was the one under pressure and being labled as a fast and crash prone after Spa. From then on he beat Webber in qualifying and racing all the way to the end of the season. If it didn't affect him, why did it affect Webber? Heck, Webber had trouble beating Alonso after Spa. He crash out at Korea and finished behind at Monza, Singapore and Abu Dhabi.


As for Canada and Japan, in Canada Webber was never close enough to overtake, check the forix Gap Analysis. At Japan he had a chance at either undercutting or overcutting at the pit stops. Didn't happen and then he was always at least a second and a half behind. Too much to try to make a move or make it seem was being held that badly.

Sorry, Webber lost fair and square in 2010. It happens.

Edited by Atreiu, 16 April 2013 - 15:44.

[Black Widow]

.......in Canada Webber was never close enough to overtake, check the forix Gap Analysis.

Webber was indeed held back in Canada 2010. Whilst your checking the gap analysis, check the closing laps, that will tell you a better story.

If my memory serves me correctly, this was the famous race where Vettel asked Rocky "What is the Fastest Lap?" to which Rocky responded, "Don't even think about it!"

[ThomFi]

Yes, but you're ignoring that he would have banked those points, and potentially this makes it less pressure-soaked later in the campaign. If he overtakes Vettel in Canada, there's a couple more points. If he had a go in Japan, as he wanted to, possibly there's another 7 there and 7 off Vettel's total. Which in reverse is BackOnTop's point in this thread.

The difference is Webber was happy to defer to the team's judgement, and it cost him in the end.

In my opinion, Webber should take some of the blame for the Turkey incident too.
It's possibly a sentiment or opinion of some people, that this incident inflicted (additional) pressure on him and hurt his performance, resulting in the loss of the championship. But that's hardly a fact.
Plus, there are always things, that are working against you. Crashes, collisions, mechanical DNF's, unjustified Penalties and so on. A driver has to deal with this situations and Webber himself has caused enough collisions in his career, the latest incident with Vergne occurred at China just one week ago. Sometimes you're on the receiving side of the loop and sometimes you're on the giving side.

Edited by ThomFi, 16 April 2013 - 16:34.

[Atreiu]

Webber was indeed held back in Canada 2010. Whilst your checking the gap analysis, check the closing laps, that will tell you a better story.

If my memory serves me correctly, this was the famous race where Vettel asked Rocky "What is the Fastest Lap?" to which Rocky responded, "Don't even think about it!"

The gap after Webber's second stop was around 11-12 seconds with 20 laps to go. Webber closed it to 1.4 at the flag. He didn't spend his last stint shadowing Vettel. Both did drop the pace significantly ater lap 60 but still Webber was never in the same frame, so to speak, until the very end. I could be wrong. I do remember Vettel's radio question of the fastest lap, but nothing of Webber being held back.

Anyhow, and back at them doing team work, what was the official explanation for Vettel letting Webber through early in the race at Monza?

[bourbon]

I don't like sweeping generalisations *generally*, but you Vettel fans have really talked yourselves into that position over the past 3 and a bit weeks. What was conjecture, is suddenly now irrefutable FACT!

I don't think Mark *actively* worked against Vettel at the Brazil 2012 start at all. He might not have given Vettel the cleanest run, but as stated in numerous posts '**** happens' at a race start and any driver's first port of call is to ensure they make it thru turn 1 without damage, not be a guide dog for their teammate. And even IF (and it's a big IF) Mark had '**** Seb' in his mind at the time he more than made up for it later in the race by diving out of the way when there was a Vettel sandwich between him & Kobayashi at the restart, and then letting him thru very easily later in the race.

I think Seb apologised with some genuineness after Malaysia, but then went away & talked to Schumi, and has now concocted a story to justify it all by blaming Webber for whatever sliver of evidence there is that Webber didn't go out of his way to assist Vettel in Brazil. Conveniently ignoring that team orders assisted him during his 2010 title run.

This is where we agree to disagree and move on.

[BackOnTop]

In my opinion, Webber should take some of the blame for the Turkey incident too.
It's possibly a sentiment or opinion of some people, that this incident inflicted (additional) pressure on him and hurt his performance, resulting in the loss of the championship. But that's hardly a fact.
Plus, there are always things, that are working against you. Crashes, collisions, mechanical DNF's, unjustified Penalties and so on. A driver has to deal with this situations and Webber himself has caused enough collisions in his career, the latest incident with Vergne occurred at China just one week ago. Sometimes you're on the receiving side of the loop and sometimes you're on the giving side.

Yes, the Stewards didn't impose any penalty for this incident on Vettel post-race... so even they must have decided it was a racing incident!! Which means both Webber-Vettel were equally to blame for it, and could have avoided it.

Webber did his usual squeeze to one extreme side, exactly like he did with Pitwall in Malaysia 2013! So both deserved it.

Recently, Webber got his 5-place grid Penalty China 2013 post-race... for crashing into Vergne. So Turkey was fault of both drivers as Vettel wasn't blamed by the officials..

Edited by BackOnTop, 16 April 2013 - 17:46.

[Afterburner]

Interesting points being raised here,with the championship being this close i think if Seb nicks it with less than 7 points it will be a stroke of genius.
I dont believe the 'payback to Webber' theories.If Vettel had a problem with Webber's antics (mind you we do not know the full story) in Brazil '12 and Silverstone '11 he would have settled it there and then,especialy if you consider the 'clout' he carries in RBR.
He simply looked at the big picture,saw the 7 points were important and went for the gap,not anticipating the reaction from the team,Mark,fans and the media.His first instinct was to apologise ( I would have done the same) but it seems that he went home and in those three weeks,considered his actions soberly and saw(according to him) they were justifyed. Hence his unapologetic stance in china.
Bottom-line,he doesnt give a shit what we lot think,he made his descion and he seems ready to live with the consequences(bad press,hate from fans,a divided team.)
I think thats where i respect him,he had to make an unpopular decsion,and he made it and he has moved on and frankly we should to.

Well put.

EDIT: That is, except for the fact that Seb himself admitted afterward that he wasn't thinking about the championship during the race--he said he was thinking in the moment and only wanted to win, because that is, in his opinion, what racing is about. I agree that afterwards he may have realised what his actions meant for the championship, which led to him changing his tune; that makes sense given his comments later on.

Edited by Afterburner, 16 April 2013 - 19:14.

[karne]

Mark actively worked against Seb when the WDC was on the line

You mean Mark made Vettel crash into Senna and drive like a moron! Wow! I never knew Mark was so powerful!

[Raelene]

I don't like sweeping generalisations *generally*, but you Vettel fans have really talked yourselves into that position over the past 3 and a bit weeks. What was conjecture, is suddenly now irrefutable FACT!

I don't think Mark *actively* worked against Vettel at the Brazil 2012 start at all. He might not have given Vettel the cleanest run, but as stated in numerous posts '**** happens' at a race start and any driver's first port of call is to ensure they make it thru turn 1 without damage, not be a guide dog for their teammate. And even IF (and it's a big IF) Mark had '**** Seb' in his mind at the time he more than made up for it later in the race by diving out of the way when there was a Vettel sandwich between him & Kobayashi at the restart, and then letting him thru very easily later in the race.

I think Seb apologised with some genuineness after Malaysia, but then went away & talked to Schumi, and has now concocted a story to justify it all by blaming Webber for whatever sliver of evidence there is that Webber didn't go out of his way to assist Vettel in Brazil. Conveniently ignoring that team orders assisted him during his 2010 title run.

Spot on

I also think that CH in his "defence" of Vettel - tried to lay some of the blame to Mark with Silverstone and Brazil...great way of protecting your number 1 driver...of course he forgot to mention the times Seb didn't obey, or the wing thing...just look after number 1 driver (as one would expect)

[undersquare]

But that is not a universal perspective. It was Mark's behavior I could not respect at all. He stood on the podium and used the loud speaker to call Vettel a peddler, accused the team of bias (Vettel will be protected - which wasn't the case), and declared that the fantastic wheel to wheel at the end was rubbish because Vettel was supposed to have handed him the win. Mark has refused to be a team player in the past when it suited him and Brazil 12 was the straw that broke the camel's back. I don't know how long he thought he could go on stuffing it to Vettel and then running to hide behind his cries of bias, misunderstanding and bygones are bygones. Mark banked on no drop kick action from Seb, but every guy has his limits...

Lol, he called him a quick pedaller .

Means a quick driver.

[Raelene]

let's put an Aussie dictionary up to help those that "australian" is not their first language ;);)

the quick peddler was actually a compliment...

[bourbon]

Lol, he called him a quick pedaller .

Means a quick driver.

Ah, . Beg pardon then.

Edited by bourbon, 17 April 2013 - 06:47.

[mnmracer]

Yes, the Stewards didn't impose any penalty for this incident on Vettel post-race... so even they must have decided it was a racing incident!! Which means both Webber-Vettel were equally to blame for it, and could have avoided it.

Interesting question.
Have there been similar incidents where one driver was clearly to blame, and was penalized?

[BackOnTop]

Interesting question.
Have there been similar incidents where one driver was clearly to blame, and was penalized?

It's called racing incident, which it was as a matter of fact.

[mnmracer]

It's called racing incident, which it was as a matter of fact.

Yes, but have there been similar incidents that were not (deemed) racing incidents?

[Zava]

Lol, he called him a quick pedaller .

Means a quick driver.

http://www.gptoday.c...l/#.UW5rG6JA2A4
Mark Webber calling his team-mate a "quick peddler"
though afaik some top lotus bloke (Allison or Lopez) used the same expression on his drivers, so I don't think it is a bad thing to say.

[BackOnTop]

Yes, but have there been similar incidents that were not (deemed) racing incidents?

Massa & Hamilton @ India GP 2011, with Massa being officially penalised.

But these two were constantly at it that season, it even became a running commentary joke.

[trogggy]

http://www.gptoday.c...l/#.UW5rG6JA2A4
Mark Webber calling his team-mate a "quick peddler"

The perils of spill-chuckers.

[Astro]

I have translated part of an interview to Pedro De la Rosa. I thought it was somewhat related to what has been discussed and I found to be of interest.

Q. But Malaysia and the contempt shown to his team mate in China is not very correct.
A. I don't like to judge other drivers, because each team is different and I don't know what's happening: Team orders have always existed, when have been legal and when not. I know what I would do, which is to abide as always, as in Bahrain when I replaced Montoya (2005) and qualified ahead of Kimi. I was told to be careful with him. They didn't have to tell me more.

Q. Would you have stay behind your partner in the second race of the year, being a triple world champion?
A. This is a team sport and the benefits of 700 people are above the personal interest of a pilot.

Q. All three titles do not give him any privileges?
A. The least important is whether is Vettel or another. It is a conceptual issue. I would have done it. If what he did is right or wrong, only he knows.

Q. People say that Webber should leave the team or go home. Not so easy, right?
A. Noooo. How are you going to go back home when you can win the World Championship with one of the best teams, which has a great car at the moment?

Q. What if you thought they were sabotaging you ...
A. They haven't sabotaged anyone. His team mate did not abide a team order. He apologized. The fuel issue is a mistake. It happened at McLaren with Hamilton, but the timing may have impaired perceptions. I wish I could be him [Webber]. I would continue, fight and try growing stronger, as he is doing. I do not see the controversy. The problem would be that he could not win races, but being able to, I would love to be on his skin.

[BackOnTop]

I have translated part of an interview to Pedro De la Rosa. I thought it was somewhat related to what has been discussed and I found to be of interest.

Q. But Malaysia and the contempt shown to his team mate in China is not very correct.
A. I don't like to judge other drivers, because each team is different and I don't know what's happening: Team orders have always existed, when have been legal and when not. I know what I would do, which is to abide as always, as in Bahrain when I replaced Montoya (2005) and qualified ahead of Kimi. I was told to be careful with him. They didn't have to tell me more.

Q. Would you have stay behind your partner in the second race of the year, being a triple world champion?
A. This is a team sport and the benefits of 700 people are above the personal interest of a pilot.

Q. All three titles do not give him any privileges?
A. The least important is whether is Vettel or another. It is a conceptual issue. I would have done it. If what he did is right or wrong, only he knows.

Q. People say that Webber should leave the team or go home. Not so easy, right?
A. Noooo. How are you going to go back home when you can win the World Championship with one of the best teams, which has a great car at the moment?

Q. What if you thought they were sabotaging you ...
A. They haven't sabotaged anyone. His team mate did not abide a team order. He apologized. The fuel issue is a mistake. It happened at McLaren with Hamilton, but the timing may have impaired perceptions. I wish I could be him [Webber]. I would continue, fight and try growing stronger, as he is doing. I do not see the controversy. The problem would be that he could not win races, but being able to, I would love to be on his skin.

Thanks for translate!