79 replies to this topic

[Race2win]

If VDG is still having sweet dreams of those days good for him. But he needs to wake up and smell the coffee. Someone should remind him, beating someone in lower formulae doesnt gaurantee a top team in F1.

[F.M.]

van der Garde has multiple interviews with the Dutch television each GP, where he has to talk about being last again. So to make it sound better he says (either of) two things:
- "I can't do with the car what I want to do so I just have to wait for the Barcelona updates."
- "When I used to race against Vettel in the junior series I was pretty close to him and sometimes even beat him. I'm sure that if I was in the other Red Bull car, I would at least be close to him again."

[apoka]

Theissen regrets overloading Vettel in 2006: http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/55728

Vettel was 18/19 at that time.

Edited by apoka, 18 April 2013 - 07:55.

[mnmracer]

Theissen regrets overloading Vettel in 2006: http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/55728

Vettel was 18/19 at that time.

Interesting, never read that before.

Before his heavy crash in the World Series at Spa, di Resta lead with 60 points, to Vettel's 54.
In the 8 races following (with crash recovery and the overseas F1 testing), di Resta scored another 26 points, to 21 points for Vettel. Not world shocking, and di Rsta might have still won it, but Vettel does usually shine in the second half of a season. In the long run though, I'd say it has paid off

[bub]

Can't blame him. If I beat a triple world champion I'd mention it too.

[Sakae]

Theissen regrets overloading Vettel in 2006: http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/55728

Vettel was 18/19 at that time.

Based on content of vast majority of posts of the day when describing Vettel's place in F1, I am not sure that any of Kubica's fans actually bothered to read the article (or they simply ignored).

[Sakae]

Can't blame him. If I beat a triple world champion I'd mention it too.

Van der Garde beat in some races an F1 aspirant, and that's just about that. WDC run is fresh, and luckily for Vettel, Van der Garde nowhere in sight.

[oligc94]

Point taken, but that's not a whole story, is it?
Hamilton drove several years in all-mighty McLaren, and won only one WDC, one can say...

Hardly 'all-mighty' though were they?

2007 - probably along with the Ferrari the fastest car (although the fact that it was Alonso and Hamilton driving flattered it a little).

2008 - this one's up for dispute. My personal belief is that it was not quite as good a car as the Ferrari.

2009 - this one doesn't need any mention really.

2010 - probably the 3rd fastest car over the course of the season.

2011 - decent, but nowhere near the RB7.

2012 - fast but unreliable.

Perhaps 2007 is the only year where you could say that he should have won the WDC and didn't (although understandable given that he was a rookie).

[Sakae]

Hardly 'all-mighty' though were they?

2007 - probably along with the Ferrari the fastest car (although the fact that it was Alonso and Hamilton driving flattered it a little).

2008 - this one's up for dispute. My personal belief is that it was not quite as good a car as the Ferrari.

2009 - this one doesn't need any mention really.

2010 - probably the 3rd fastest car over the course of the season.

2011 - decent, but nowhere near the RB7.

2012 - fast but unreliable.

Perhaps 2007 is the only year where you could say that he should have won the WDC and didn't (although understandable given that he was a rookie).

Hmm, thanks for the effort. It might equal his.

[ebc]

What a driver with a high level of ability achieves in lower categories is important to a point, but what is more important is how they progress and how much they learn. It is clear that Vettel is quite bright and picks up things very quickly and has improved year on year in his time as a racing driver right back to 2006 he has improved his performance every season, that can't be said for his peers. Most people tend to learn more in defeat, so I think it was better for Vettel in the long run to have difficulties in F3 etc as it would appear to have made him stronger now that he is in F1. Hamilton on the other hand was hugely successful even in his first few seasons in F1, but hasn't progressed at the same rate as Vettel, who in my opinion is clearly the better and stronger of the two at this point.

On BMW letting Vettel go, I have read many football players and coaches say that although they knew Messi was talented they never thought he would be the best in the world never mind of all time. And outside of sports the Beatles were turned down by record company after record company because nobody could see how good they were and these record producers were supposed to be experts. So it is not uncommon for talent of the scale of Vettels to go unnoticed or have trouble standing out from the crowd. Schumachers junior record was good but not great, Alonso aswell was not that special in terms of results but both are clearly very smart and continued to develop and improve into their thirties as i'm sure Vettel will too.

[bub]

Van der Garde beat in some races an F1 aspirant, and that's just about that. WDC run is fresh, and luckily for Vettel, Van der Garde nowhere in sight.

Yeah nobody (not even van der Garde) is saying van der Garde is better. It's just a nice thing for him to be able to say and proves he at least has/had some talent.

[Nemo1965]

What a driver with a high level of ability achieves in lower categories is important to a point, but what is more important is how they progress and how much they learn. It is clear that Vettel is quite bright and picks up things very quickly and has improved year on year in his time as a racing driver right back to 2006 he has improved his performance every season, that can't be said for his peers. Most people tend to learn more in defeat, so I think it was better for Vettel in the long run to have difficulties in F3 etc as it would appear to have made him stronger now that he is in F1. Hamilton on the other hand was hugely successful even in his first few seasons in F1, but hasn't progressed at the same rate as Vettel, who in my opinion is clearly the better and stronger of the two at this point.

On BMW letting Vettel go, I have read many football players and coaches say that although they knew Messi was talented they never thought he would be the best in the world never mind of all time. And outside of sports the Beatles were turned down by record company after record company because nobody could see how good they were and these record producers were supposed to be experts. So it is not uncommon for talent of the scale of Vettels to go unnoticed or have trouble standing out from the crowd. Schumachers junior record was good but not great, Alonso aswell was not that special in terms of results but both are clearly very smart and continued to develop and improve into their thirties as i'm sure Vettel will too.

Very good post, and your example of the Beatles is better than you think. By virtue of the extensive historical research done on the Fab Four, I've heard the Beatles-audition tapes on which they were rejected and they were, well, awfull... The rejection at that time, purely based on the result, was deserved. In no way one could hear, not even with very optimistic ears filled with hindsight (sic!), the talent that was later so obvious. It took George Martin not only to discover them but also to make them blossom.

Some drivers - Aerton Senna and Alain Prost - grow into topdrivers by themselves. Other drivers need nature AND nurture. Look at Niki Lauda. Not a stellar pre-F1 career, not a very promising F1 start, was essentially a paydriver... won three wc's in the end...

[Nemo1965]

What a driver with a high level of ability achieves in lower categories is important to a point, but what is more important is how they progress and how much they learn. It is clear that Vettel is quite bright and picks up things very quickly and has improved year on year in his time as a racing driver right back to 2006 he has improved his performance every season, that can't be said for his peers. Most people tend to learn more in defeat, so I think it was better for Vettel in the long run to have difficulties in F3 etc as it would appear to have made him stronger now that he is in F1. Hamilton on the other hand was hugely successful even in his first few seasons in F1, but hasn't progressed at the same rate as Vettel, who in my opinion is clearly the better and stronger of the two at this point.

On BMW letting Vettel go, I have read many football players and coaches say that although they knew Messi was talented they never thought he would be the best in the world never mind of all time. And outside of sports the Beatles were turned down by record company after record company because nobody could see how good they were and these record producers were supposed to be experts. So it is not uncommon for talent of the scale of Vettels to go unnoticed or have trouble standing out from the crowd. Schumachers junior record was good but not great, Alonso aswell was not that special in terms of results but both are clearly very smart and continued to develop and improve into their thirties as i'm sure Vettel will too.

Very good post, and your example of the Beatles is better than you think. By virtue of the extensive historical research done on the Fab Four, I've heard the Beatles-audition tapes on which they were rejected and they were, well, awfull... The rejection at that time, purely based on the result, was deserved. In no way one could hear, not even with very optimistic ears filled with hindsight (sic!), the talent that was later so obvious. It took George Martin not only to discover them but also to make them blossom.

Some drivers - Aerton Senna and Alain Prost - grow into topdrivers by themselves. Other drivers need nature AND nurture. Look at Niki Lauda. Not a stellar pre-F1 career, not a very promising F1 start, was essentially a paydriver... won three wc's in the end...

[1Devil1]

Hardly 'all-mighty' though were they?

2007 - probably along with the Ferrari the fastest car (although the fact that it was Alonso and Hamilton driving flattered it a little).

2008 - this one's up for dispute. My personal belief is that it was not quite as good a car as the Ferrari.

2009 - this one doesn't need any mention really.

2010 - probably the 3rd fastest car over the course of the season.

2011 - decent, but nowhere near the RB7.

2012 - fast but unreliable.

Perhaps 2007 is the only year where you could say that he should have won the WDC and didn't (although understandable given that he was a rookie).

If you take all this years into account he had the best package given to a driver behind Vettel. Hamilton had the opportunity to race cars that others have to dream about. He was six years in a top team, had three years the car (2007, 2008, 2010) to win the championship. The end result is one title in the last corner against Massa. He is perhaps the driver with most natural talent/raw speed, but I believe put Vettel or Alonso in the McLaren this six years the result would have been better. I am not sure about today, Hamilton seems to matured over the course of the last season if Mercedes gives him a good car he is dangerous. But for myself their are no excuses for nearly losing the title against Massa or crashing in Monza 2010 being in the title fight. He still has to prove he is in the same bracket of Vettel or Alonso.

[bub]

If you take all this years into account he had the best package given to a driver behind Vettel. Hamilton had the opportunity to race cars that others have to dream about. He was six years in a top team, had three years the car (2007, 2008, 2010) to win the championship. The end result is one title in the last corner against Massa. He is perhaps the driver with most natural talent/raw speed, but I believe put Vettel or Alonso in the McLaren this six years the result would have been better. I am not sure about today, Hamilton seems to matured over the course of the last season if Mercedes gives him a good car he is dangerous. But for myself their are no excuses for nearly losing the title against Massa or crashing in Monza 2010 being in the title fight. He still has to prove he is in the same bracket of Vettel or Alonso.

He already beat Alonso in his very first year in F1. The best driver Vettel beat is Webber. They have to prove they are in the same bracket as Hamilton

[1Devil1]

He already beat Alonso in his very first year in F1. The best driver Vettel beat is Webber. They have to prove they are in the same bracket as Hamilton

Then Button> Hamilton> Alonso, right?

Edited by 1Devil1, 18 April 2013 - 13:29.

[Sakae]

I thought that Vettel beat Alonso and Hamilton three years in the row, or are we watching two different shows?

[bub]

Then Button> Hamilton> Alonso, right?

I thought Hamilton beat Button in 2 out of 3 seaons but If you want it can be Button>Hamilton>Alonso ;)

I thought that Vettel beat Alonso and Hamilton three years in the row, or are we watching two different shows?

That was Newey

[Sakae]

I thought Hamilton beat Button in 2 out of 3 seaons but If you want it can be Button>Hamilton>Alonso ;)



That was Newey

That's the best excuse Hamilton's fans have for him? Weak, very weak, I say; think again.

(BTW - I don't think that Adrian has a superlicence to drive that car).

[SpaMaster]

Hardly 'all-mighty' though were they?

2007 - probably along with the Ferrari the fastest car (although the fact that it was Alonso and Hamilton driving flattered it a little).

2008 - this one's up for dispute. My personal belief is that it was not quite as good a car as the Ferrari.

2009 - this one doesn't need any mention really.

2010 - probably the 3rd fastest car over the course of the season.

2011 - decent, but nowhere near the RB7.

2012 - fast but unreliable.

Perhaps 2007 is the only year where you could say that he should have won the WDC and didn't (although understandable given that he was a rookie).

Keep repeating that to yourself.

[MikeV1987]

Hardly 'all-mighty' though were they?

2007 - probably along with the Ferrari the fastest car (although the fact that it was Alonso and Hamilton driving flattered it a little).

2008 - this one's up for dispute. My personal belief is that it was not quite as good a car as the Ferrari.

2009 - this one doesn't need any mention really.

2010 - probably the 3rd fastest car over the course of the season.

2011 - decent, but nowhere near the RB7.

2012 - fast but unreliable.

Perhaps 2007 is the only year where you could say that he should have won the WDC and didn't (although understandable given that he was a rookie).

2007 - just as fast as Ferrari.
2008 - just as fast as Ferrari, Heikki made the car look weaker than it really was
2009 - Crappy until the b-spec version came aroune Germany
2010 - Overall, Hardly much slower than the Ferrari or Red Bull, mistakes costed him the title.
2011 - Nowhere near the RB7? please, Mclaren were challenging RBR in qualy & the race most of the season. I would even argue that they were just as fast as RBR int he 2nd half of the season.
2012 - fastest* but unreliable

Edited by MikeV1987, 18 April 2013 - 14:41.

[MikeV1987]

Sour grapes from van der Garde? Di Resta said more or less the same thing when he came into F1.

[IamFasterthanU]

And Hamilton and Schumacher and Rosberg and Alonso and Raikonnen and Kubica......

I never knew karting was a disease!

umm as far as I know kimi, Alonso, Hamilton, Schumacher, Rosberg, Kubica etc. were never Karting world champs. Only Luizzi, Trulli other than Van der Garde have been the ones in the recent past who have raced in F1. Get your facts right before posting :/.

[oligc94]

If you take all this years into account he had the best package given to a driver behind Vettel. Hamilton had the opportunity to race cars that others have to dream about. He was six years in a top team, had three years the car (2007, 2008, 2010) to win the championship. The end result is one title in the last corner against Massa. He is perhaps the driver with most natural talent/raw speed, but I believe put Vettel or Alonso in the McLaren this six years the result would have been better. I am not sure about today, Hamilton seems to matured over the course of the last season if Mercedes gives him a good car he is dangerous. But for myself their are no excuses for nearly losing the title against Massa or crashing in Monza 2010 being in the title fight. He still has to prove he is in the same bracket of Vettel or Alonso.

I typed out a long response to this pointing out the (numerous) flaws in you arguments, but then I looked at the thread title and realised I was straying way off topic, so I'll leave it here.

[oligc94]

Keep repeating that to yourself.

I shall.

[yoyogetfunky]

That was Newey

I wonder what car Webber drove all those years?

VdG mightv been on pace of Vettel back in the day. Vettel himself was deemed not worthy of F1 by Whitmarsh only 4 years ago. The thing is he has learned and evolved into a super reliable, ultra competitive driver he is today. I dont think VdG can say the same.

[SamH123]

VDG is currently being destroyed by Pic having finished more than a MINUTE behind Pic in China (and no car problems otherwise he would have said in his press release)
http://en.mclarenf-1...ic#.UXAvE0okyOM

And this minute is a lot when you consider you don't have the traffic troubles that would mean for e.g. a struggling Grosjean might finish a minute behind Raikonnen.

I really don't know what he has to complain about? He's not even been the recipient of much criticism that I've seen at least.

Edited by SamH123, 18 April 2013 - 17:42.

[One]

Did you see what Giedo was doing when he was interviewed by Suzi Perry this afternoon, after the session?
He started to put his zip there up and down!
Com'on Giedo, keep your boy under control, that is how you lose against Lewis!

[zeph]

Vettel vs. Hamilton for P2. Who's in front?

vd Garde is not arrogant and said his only goal this year was to learn from Pic and come midway this season, beat him.

That is great racing! Fun to watch and all, thanks for sharing!

[superdelphinus]

Point taken, but that's not a whole story, is it?
Hamilton drove several years in all-mighty McLaren, and won only one WDC, one can say...

Not really. He drove a 'mighty McLaren' for 3 seasons realistically; lost one by one point, won another, and probably would have one the third with even luck

Edited by superdelphinus, 20 April 2013 - 22:32.