43 replies to this topic

[Head]

if u think about vettel , hamilton , alonso , button ,webber , kimi , kobayashi they all entered F1 because of their driving abilities only they didn't bring any personal or team sponsorship. so are we gonna see a driver who will be in F1 for his talent and driving abilities not his money ?

[EthanM]

does Bottas for example have money? Or Hulkenberg? Or Di Resta?

I think you are over-sensationalizing a bit

[Head]

does Bottas for example have money? Or Hulkenberg? Or Di Resta?

I think you are over-sensationalizing a bit

Bottas : finnish sponsorship
Hulkenberg: dekra
Di resta : mercedes engines

[Cool Beans]

Actually from your original list Vettel was nursed into F1 with Red Bull backing and Hamilton McLaren. Alonso had Briatore as his manager. That leaves Button, Webber and Kimi.

[Race2win]

For most of the teams talent and sponsorship go hand in hand. Drivers do have their personal sponsors whether the teams like it or not. IMO except for Marussia and Caterham all the teams chose a mix of both.

[BCM]

No driver gets to F1 without sponsorship. Even Schumacher got his first drive thanks to Mercedes money.

[MadYarpen]

Kubica had no sponsorship I think.

But I guess it is fair to say, that Bottas and Hulk are not in F1 because of money, but because of their talent.

[danstheman]

Toro Rosso drivers, especially if they make the Red Bull. You saw what happened to Alg an Buemi. The team quite specifically said they don't have the required talent to be world championship contenders, so they were dropped.

I personally hope Ricciardo makes it! You might say Red Bull are his sponsors, as they have funded his open wheeler career in Europe. But now that he's in F1 I believe he's paid a salary and I don't think he necessarily brought any sponsors to the team.

[rasul]

Actually from your original list Vettel was nursed into F1 with Red Bull backing and Hamilton McLaren.

There's a difference. They were nursed and brought into F1 because of their talent only. They brought no money for their teams.

[Cool Beans]

Toro Rosso drivers, especially if they make the Red Bull. You saw what happened to Alg an Buemi. The team quite specifically said they don't have the required talent to be world championship contenders, so they were dropped.

I personally hope Ricciardo makes it! You might say Red Bull are his sponsors, as they have funded his open wheeler career in Europe. But now that he's in F1 I believe he's paid a salary and I don't think he necessarily brought any sponsors to the team.

I don't think that counts as getting there with talent only. It just shows you need major backing to get in IMHO.

[fisssssi]

Unfortunately, as much as I rate him, I think the reason Kobayashi is not in F1 this year is because it took him too long to be proactive and find some sponsorship money to bring to the team.

Even Alonso brings personal sponsorship now, right? As Race2win said, talent and sponsorship go hand-in-hand these days. Unless of course you are the only driver representing your country... no names mentioned!

[One]

Just make sure if I understood it right..., it is about Formula One race seat?

Any driver who come close to Formula One done racing in advance, to do so he/she must have funded thatmakes it already difficult to say that a driver comes pure on merit with no money.

[EthanM]

Bottas : finnish sponsorship
Hulkenberg: dekra
Di resta : mercedes engines

you are confusing personal sponsorship with money paid to the team. Schumi had a personal sponsor, even Senna had Nacional. That's quite different to getting a ride based on money.

[oetzi]

Obviously other things come into play, but the quickest drivers are the most likely to find sponsorship, so it's not all that bad.

[ivi0912329]

Developing a racing driver itself needs sponsorship anyway, money will always be needed.

[KWSN - DSM]

All drivers getting to F1 have sponsorship, so the question of drivers getting to F1 without is not reflecting real life.

I think the question should instead be, drivers who through talent manage to attract sponsorship without having to really try, as in the sponsoring companies riding the coat-tails of the very talented. And when that is the question then most of the front running drivers fit the bill.

[HaydenFan]

Actually from your original list Vettel was nursed into F1 with Red Bull backing and Hamilton McLaren. Alonso had Briatore as his manager. That leaves Button, Webber and Kimi.

Even Webber had backing from Paul Stoddart.

You get those few kids like Button, Kimi, Kubica, where teams took that risk. And for at least Williams and Renault/Benetton, Button didn't pan out. Red Bull really messed things up. Their complex driver development program actually has a team in F1, and in the case of Ricciardo, willing to buy a seat with another team in F1.

But for the argument of the OP, I don't think so. I feel the sport is actually going back to the 50's in a business sense. Where the big teams promoted from within, and to get to their level they need to be extremely wealthy people who either buy into the top, or like Red Bull, create their own team to compete with the top.

Like said many times, money and driver ability to hand-in-hand. You might have bundles of money, but I think even F1 teams won't go for some drivers. You might have money, but at the end of the day, if you can't produce at the lower levels, F1 isn't going to welcome you in.

[CookinFlatSix]

Maybe at the top teams like Ferrari, Mercedes and Red Bull. Much less chance at the teams who need sponsorship ahead of all else

[Jimisgod]

Kimi had very little ladder series experience. His Sauber drive was an educated guess by people who could spot early talent. But he was very fortunate, and rewarded that punt.

[ed24f1]

you are confusing personal sponsorship with money paid to the team. Schumi had a personal sponsor, even Senna had Nacional. That's quite different to getting a ride based on money.

Di Resta's seat originally gave Force India a free KERS system from Mercedes (not sure if it still does) and Kemppi, a Finnish sponsor has appeared on the Williams, so I don't think that the examples you quoted are only personal sponsorships as you say.

[pingu666]

all drivers have had a ton spent on them pre f1, but now I think bringing money is a major part of getting a seat in f1, while before I percived it to be if your in f1, probably getting paid.

I think only in america and japan maybe could you maybe eak up the ladder without money, and a big maybe at that.

gp2 etc don't have enough exposure to warrent sponship as a good investment

[tjkoyen]

all drivers have had a ton spent on them pre f1, but now I think bringing money is a major part of getting a seat in f1, while before I percived it to be if your in f1, probably getting paid.

I think only in america and japan maybe could you maybe eak up the ladder without money, and a big maybe at that.

gp2 etc don't have enough exposure to warrent sponship as a good investment

Obviously you don't live in America.

If we're talking F1, you're looking to spend a few million to get to F1 level. That's also assuming you take the championship in every series you participate in within 1-2 years of joining it. Could be more, could be less though.

Just a rough idea of cost-to-drive per year based on the usual progression through the open-wheel ladder in the USA if you're buying your ride (not totally accurate, correct me if I'm wrong):
Karting - $10k/yr (this is minimum for a national level driver, I know people spending 10x this)
Skip Barber - $30k/yr
F2000 - $150k/yr
Pro Mazda - $300k/yr
GP3 - $800k/yr
GP2 - $1.2M/yr

How you get that money varies. If you're good, you could pick up some nice sponsors, but probably won't really find any big contributors until you reach F2000 or Mazda because no one really sponsors karting drivers these days.

Otherwise, you know someone who has a crapload of money (Chilton's dad) and they're willing to pay your way for whatever reason.

So the point is, nearly everyone is bringing money somehow. Whether it's because they are good or just have good connections, who knows.

Edited by tjkoyen, 17 April 2013 - 15:18.

[KnucklesAgain]

There's a reason that Ross Bentley's Speed Secrets series of books regularly have chapters like "Marketing Techniques", "Career Skills", "The Business of Racing", and similar, on a level with other chapters like "Racing Skills". Finding the money to race always was a part of being a "complete driver" (as proposed by Bentley) - also compare Lauda's early years.

Which is not meant to say that there should not be attempts at making things better as they are now, but it's good to keep in mind.

[pingu666]

crap, thought i put oval in there. yeah no way could you do open wheel single seater road course.

i ment more of a nascar/short track racer career. certainly arca has some career drivers, and you could do ok money wise in trucks

[JeanTodt86]

simple answer is NO. no matter how much talent you have, you need a sponsor to compete in F1, Plain and simple

[tjkoyen]

crap, thought i put oval in there. yeah no way could you do open wheel single seater road course.

i ment more of a nascar/short track racer career. certainly arca has some career drivers, and you could do ok money wise in trucks

Ah okay understood. Yeah there are still quite a few NASCAR guys who came from very little money and relied on their talent to get them to the top.

[Bloggsworth]

I think you need to find your Shift key...

[BigCHrome]

Kobayashi entered F1 due to his nationality and fortune of having Glock hurt himself at the end of the season.

[BCM]

Obviously you don't live in America.

If we're talking F1, you're looking to spend a few million to get to F1 level. That's also assuming you take the championship in every series you participate in within 1-2 years of joining it. Could be more, could be less though.

Just a rough idea of cost-to-drive per year based on the usual progression through the open-wheel ladder in the USA if you're buying your ride (not totally accurate, correct me if I'm wrong):
Karting - $10k/yr (this is minimum for a national level driver, I know people spending 10x this)
Skip Barber - $30k/yr
F2000 - $150k/yr
Pro Mazda - $300k/yr
GP3 - $800k/yr
GP2 - $1.2M/yr

How you get that money varies. If you're good, you could pick up some nice sponsors, but probably won't really find any big contributors until you reach F2000 or Mazda because no one really sponsors karting drivers these days.

Otherwise, you know someone who has a crapload of money (Chilton's dad) and they're willing to pay your way for whatever reason.

So the point is, nearly everyone is bringing money somehow. Whether it's because they are good or just have good connections, who knows.

Mark Webber tweeted a picture of his plan to get to F1 a while back. Buggered if I can find it, but the numbers you have there seem in the ball park.

Edited by BCM, 18 April 2013 - 06:43.

[JeePee]

Robin Frijns is on it's way without bringing money.
He could drive WSbR because of the world championship prize money from F2.0 and he's able to drive GP2 next weekend because Hilmer offered him a free seat (only for one weekend).
If Sauber drops slow pay driver Guiterrez next year and puts Frijns in his seat, he's there purely based on talent.

[charly0418]

Robin Frijns is on it's way without bringing money.
He could drive WSbR because of the world championship prize money from F2.0 and he's able to drive GP2 next weekend because Hilmer offered him a free seat (only for one weekend).
If Sauber drops slow pay driver Guiterrez next year and puts Frijns in his seat, he's there purely based on talent.

Sadly I dont think Sauber could survive without at least 1 payed driver. Maybe if Hulkenberg leaves for a top team they will promote Frijns?

[Kalmake]

Robin Frijns is on it's way without bringing money.
He could drive WSbR because of the world championship prize money from F2.0 and he's able to drive GP2 next weekend because Hilmer offered him a free seat (only for one weekend).
If Sauber drops slow pay driver Guiterrez next year and puts Frijns in his seat, he's there purely based on talent.

Is Frijns Industrial Group just a name sake or family business?

Anyway... We will never see a driver get a seat on talent only, because talented drivers will get sponsors.

[GhostR]

Is Frijns Industrial Group just a name sake or family business?

Anyway... We will never see a driver get a seat on talent only, because talented drivers will get sponsors.

If they get the sponsor money because of their talent, then the root cause of them getting to F1 is ... talent!

I think something that's really missing from this thread is a defined understanding of what causes a driver to become a "pay driver" who gets their seat either wholly or partially due to the money, as opposed to a "genuine talent" who gets the seat on merit. So, something like...

Full Pay Driver = Only got the seat because they bought it. These days the going rate seems to be anywhere between 5 and 20 mill depending on team and how much sort-of talent the driver has. Example on the current grid: Giedo van der Garde, Max Chilton (and in his case, it's nepotism as well as money).

Partial Pay Driver = Got the seat partially on talent and partially on cash brought to the team. I'd place quite a few of the current drivers on this list, such as: Maldonado, Pic (was hesitant putting him here, but I'm sure Caterham genuinely believe he has some talent ... even if I don't).

Development Program Driver = Progress through junior ranks supported by one of the big teams, who in turn assisted them into an F1 seat. Status as a DPD is based on talent, not purchase, so IMO these are *not* pay drivers. But the talent still has a big fat ? hanging until they become established. Obviously Vergne, Ricciardo, Bottas, Perez (even though he's flown the nest). Throw in Bianchi as well, and at a push Gutierrez (even if he's failing to deliver currently - he's also a partial pay).

Established Talent = They get paid to drive and secure seats because the teams *want* them. Any money that comes with them is incidental. This is actually a pretty long list - all the drivers from the current top 4 WCC teams (possible exception: Grosjean), plus Button and Hulkenburg. That's 10. I'm tempted to include Sutil and di Resta as well - even though IMO they aren't top-4 team material, I do think Force India have chosen the best drivers they can afford as their strategy is to maximise their WCC position and fund the team from the prize money that results.

[NotSoSilentBob]

Webber brought very limited backing from Australia's version of the Yellow Pages.... I don't know if any of that backing went to the team though. There's were no Yellow Pages logos on those 2002 Minardis, so probably not.

I'd say it was a small amount of personal sponsorship, that was for Mark alone. His initial deal was for three races only, and Paul Stoddart only gave him that after efforts from Ron Walker who wanted an Aussie on the grid for the home opener.

Even Webber had backing from Paul Stoddart.

Not really, he had a personal endorsement at best.

Edited by NotSoSilentBob, 18 April 2013 - 10:49.

[Jimisgod]

Fangio was sponsored by the Argentine government, Mercedes payed some cash for all of Schumacher's '91 drives, Lauda funded his March and BRM rides with various loans.

15 WDC from drivers who started as paydrivers...

[NotSoSilentBob]

Lauda funded his March and BRM rides with various loans.

Dunno if backing yourself to success by taking out a personal loan against your future earnings - when you could just as easily end up owing a fortune to people without hope of ever repaying it - qualifies as a classic 'paydriver' in my book. In the literal sense, yes. In the classic sense .... not so sure.

It takes balls to spend your own money (that you don't really have) and not someone else's.

[tifosi]

crap, thought i put oval in there. yeah no way could you do open wheel single seater road course.

i ment more of a nascar/short track racer career. certainly arca has some career drivers, and you could do ok money wise in trucks

You still need a ton of money. I know guys who do local short track stuff and a guy at work has a son who is in a very junior series. They are still spending some good money. Not anything the average family is going to be able to come up with.

[Kalmake]

Sponsorship is not just money. If somebody used their influence to get you a seat, they sponsored you.

"Talent ONLY" does not happen. You need money and favors. You might earn them with talent, you might not, but they are what they are regardless.

[NotSoSilentBob]

^ Yes but no one with any brains is going to use influence they may have to get a driver a seat who's going to be way out of their depth, because they'd both just look stupid in the end and the 'influence' would be lost for the future.

Stoddart might have liked Webber for example, but if he didn't think Webber was going to be good no amount of cajoling from Ron Walker would have got him a Minardi seat. Not when Stoddart could have gotten a pay driver bringing millions instead.

Edited by NotSoSilentBob, 18 April 2013 - 12:51.

[DanardiF1]

Bottas : finnish sponsorship
Hulkenberg: dekra
Di resta : mercedes engines

If Hulkenberg was a true pay driver (and not just someone who has personal sponsorships like many drivers have and have had) why did Williams let him go at the end of 2010? They said they didn't really want to, but were driven by commercial needs (which led them to signing Maldonado)... Surely they could've run Hulkenberg AND Maldonado and taken the more lucrative option (like they did in 2011 by bringing Bruno Senna in)?

What actually happened was Williams couldn't afford to PAY Hulkenberg for a race seat, and so he took the risky option of leaving the team for a reserve drive at Force India, where he could get paid and find a way to force himself into a race seat...

It's the same reason that Sauber had to drop Kobayashi... they couldn't afford to pay two drivers for this year, so one had to bring a budget (Gutierrez).

Edited by DanardiF1, 18 April 2013 - 15:51.

[Kalmake]

Maldonado brought more than Hülkenberg could. Bruno Senna could have brought more than Bottas did. If Kovalainen had what Bottas has, he would probably be racing this season...

Kobayashi raised $8m for this season. Last year Pic brought €7m to Marussia, so it's not far off of what the "pay drivers" in slow cars are bringing. Koba at least gave the impression of choosing not to go for a seat in a back marker team. But what if he had taken that money and outbid one of the other driver. Would he be a pay driver?

You can say that someone is more pay driver than the other, but there is no absolute definition.


For "talent ONLY" to happen you would need an open qualifier where anyone can enter without prohibitive expenses and on equal equipment. Many sports have this, but F1 never will.

[Myrvold]

Bruno Senna could have brought more than Bottas did.

He did, but not enough.

[mattferg]

What's important to note is that while a lot of teams, especially back markers, hire drivers especially because they bring a lot of money and sponsorship, they had to do something to earn that sponsorship - a company or country isn't going to want their national hero or corporate posterboy to be really terrible and slow.

It's only when the sponsorship comes from a personal link or family member that you can guarantee the driver hasn't had to prove he's got any talent whatsoever to get that seat from that money.

Can you think of anyone on the grid like that?;)

[tjkoyen]

It's only when the sponsorship comes from a personal link or family member that you can guarantee the driver hasn't had to prove he's got any talent whatsoever to get that seat from that money.

Can you think of anyone on the grid like that?;)

Draco Malfoy, Marussia's #2.