124 replies to this topic

[V3TT3L]

Even the pros don't know it.

Ivan Capelli was very fast racing for the small Leytton House. Ferrari hired him and fired the next year. It wasn't Capelli, it was about Newey.

Also Damon Hill did nothing in the lower formulas, but his learning curve was very impressive in F1 and ended WDC against Schumacher.

Montoya and Zonta had impeccable CVs, winning all accessing formulae, but didn't make it.

Edited by V3TT3L, 20 May 2013 - 01:35.

[911]

Button's first win was in 113th and Häkkinen's 96th. But does it mean anything? Häkkinen was ready to win races in 1993 when he was supposed to drive for Williams.

I know I'm not stating anything new here, but I think your point does illustrate how important the team is whenever a driver is in pursuit of a WDC. A driver may have the necessary talent to become WDC, but if he doesn't put himself in the right team at the right time, then it probably won't happen.

Edited by 911, 18 May 2013 - 16:40.

[911]

what's more important, the team you sign for or the talent you have?

That's a great question. You need both, but it's very hard to get the former without the latter. Timing is critical. Someone already mentioned JV & Alesi and I think those are some good examples of this.

[SealTheDiffuser]

How ALO was driving that Minardi it was obvious to me that he was WDC material. I expected him to be already in 2004, but the party was in 2005.

[Jimisgod]

Well, you need to prove you can be a #1 in a team.

Grosjean hasn't done that as far as I can see. Scant few races has he been up there troubling Raikkonen, and it is very much Kimi's team.

Perez on the other hand has been challenging Button lately and giving him troubles - see Bahrain. Just on attitude alone I think Perez would have it over Romain - consistency and mentality are 10 times more important for a WDC than just 'speed'.

As for Hulkenberg, he was clear #1 at Force India last year, and seems to be #1 again at Sauber. Di Resta is an interesting one, because he was pretty well beaten in 2012, but seems to be schooling Sutil this year.

Ricciardo has been too near Vernge for me to say anything. I want him to be WDC material, but he has to assert himself as #1.

Of the 'rookies' still in F1 from 2010 onwards I think the WDC potential goes:

Perez
Hulkenberg
Bianchi
Ricciardo
Di Resta
Grosjean
Vergne
Gutierrez
Pic
Chilton
VDG

Edited by Jimisgod, 19 May 2013 - 00:35.

[Kingshark]

Two future world champions debuted in the same race as Montoya.

Yeah, but Montoya was considerably older than Alonso or Raikkonen, therefore he had less time to achieve what he needed. IIRC Monty was already 25 or 26 by the time he debuted in 2001, Kimi was only 21 and Fernando only 19.

[Nathan]

The speed I think you see quite soon, how they can handle the pressure and get a team working for them and all that tends to come later.

[Craven Morehead]

When can you decide whether a driver is WDC material or not

When he wins a WDC. Or not.

[PaulTodd]

Three seconds after birth.

That cracked me up.

[JSDSKI]

QUOTE (Obi Offiah @ Apr 18 2013, 21:54) *
Three seconds after birth.

this... they come out with their wrists in opposite lock as they slide out.

[ardbeg]

True. And interesting you mention 2008, because until and including 2006 no-one would have thought of Massa as anywhere near having WDC potential. By then he already had had four seasons in F1. So Massa is like Button. A late bloomer, when circumstances played favourably for him.

When Massa was a rookie he showed some quite impressive speed. In fact, many saw him as a future WDC. Some key figure Ferrari amongst others. He crashed a lot and Ferrari took him away from Sauber to mature on their own test tracks. So I do not think "late bloomer" fits him really. Better would "showed only glimpses of the talent he was believed to have". At the end of his first season for Ferrari, he was often level with Schumi in terms of race speed.

[V3TT3L]

Nowadays it is very important for the driver to have a lot of empathy: cunning personality, outspoken in public, media friendly and polite.

Just look at this prime example:

[Lazy]

When he wins a WDC. Or not.

Yup.

[Collombin]

But a few who didn't win it are better than many who did.

[Lazy]

But a few who didn't win it are better than many who did.

Probably, but we can only guess at who they might be.

[Collombin]

A few are obvious. The point is that when talking about whether someone is WDC material, we are presumably talking primarily about talent. To actually win a WDC depends on a host of other factors too (not least luck), hence it's perfectly possible and likely for a guy of slightly lower talent to make it over another who was more talented. So to say that you can only call someone WDC material when they actually win it is a little over simplified, implying as it does that every WDC was better than every non-WDC, which is clearly nonsense.

[DutchQuicksilver]

Di Resta is an interesting one, because he was pretty well beaten in 2012, but seems to be schooling Sutil this year.

Come on now. If Sutil didn't have all that bad luck four races in a row he would be ahead of Di Resta on points. Though have to say, Di Resta is closer to him than he was in 2011, but Sutil still shows better pace in races.

Edited by DutchQuicksilver, 21 May 2013 - 11:27.

[Lazy]

A few are obvious. The point is that when talking about whether someone is WDC material, we are presumably talking primarily about talent. To actually win a WDC depends on a host of other factors too (not least luck), hence it's perfectly possible and likely for a guy of slightly lower talent to make it over another who was more talented. So to say that you can only call someone WDC material when they actually win it is a little over simplified, implying as it does that every WDC was better than every non-WDC, which is clearly nonsense.

Not at all, it just means that it's impossible to know if they've got what it takes until they've actually done it.

Depends what you mean by talented, the talent required to win a WDC is a lot more than just driving fast. Who had more talent, Senna or Prost, Senna had more pace but Prost had more racing intelligence which made him the more effective racer and therefore more talented imo.

[rasul]

Winning a WDC is not just about talent. There are many talented and fast drivers out there , but it's not enough. The ability to handle the title pressure -- not to choke when it matters--is as important as talent. The champion's mentality>speed.

[motorhead]

Well, you need to prove you can be a #1 in a team.

Grosjean hasn't done that as far as I can see. Scant few races has he been up there troubling Raikkonen, and it is very much Kimi's team.

Perez on the other hand has been challenging Button lately and giving him troubles - see Bahrain. Just on attitude alone I think Perez would have it over Romain - consistency and mentality are 10 times more important for a WDC than just 'speed'.

As for Hulkenberg, he was clear #1 at Force India last year, and seems to be #1 again at Sauber. Di Resta is an interesting one, because he was pretty well beaten in 2012, but seems to be schooling Sutil this year.

Ricciardo has been too near Vernge for me to say anything. I want him to be WDC material, but he has to assert himself as #1.

Of the 'rookies' still in F1 from 2010 onwards I think the WDC potential goes:

Perez
Hulkenberg
Bianchi
Ricciardo
Di Resta
Grosjean
Vergne
Gutierrez
Pic
Chilton
VDG

Did you forgot Bottas deliberately?

[Jimisgod]

Did you forgot Bottas deliberately?

Accidentally. Sadly, he has been invisible at Williams with that car. I think this is a wasted year for him.

[V3TT3L]

Talking about champs, didn't know where to place this MIka Hakkinen intervier.

http://www.youtube.c...player_embedded

[ChiltonsCats]

Button critics clearly didn't follow his F1 career much at all...

he came into F1 at just 20 years old, younger than most do even today, despite that he did okay in his first season with Williams, he then went to Benetton where again he did okay, when they became Renault in 2002 he did quite well in a car/team learning the sport, he beat his team-mate for the first time at just 22 years old, was very unlucky to be dropped by them for 2003. went to BAR and easily outshone Villeneuve in 2003 then was superb in 2004 for them, 2005 the car wasn't as good but he still easily outperformed his team-mates, 2006 when Rubens joined the team people expected him to beat Button, instead Jenson easily had the measure of him for most that season and won his first race. 2007 and 2008 Honda were awful so would be harsh to judge him or Rubens on those years as both suffered due to the poor pace and reliability of the car. 2009 he was in the best car at the start of the season and took full advantage of that to trounce his much more experienced team-mate once more (6 wins to 2), that allowed him a big lead when the other teams caught up and he was struggling with setup issues, despite that he did the job and secured his first WDC. 2010 he moved to McLaren which people criticised as a move, he proved that wrong fully by winning 2 races and holding his own against the much more highly rated Lewis, whereas Mercedes where he might have been failed to win any races of get anything like as many points as McLaren. 2011 Jenson was superb again and it was only the dominance of Red Bull/Vettel that prevented him being a title contender that year, he also picked up another 3 race wins (similar to Schumacher/Ferrari in 2004). 2012 he started well, secured another win but struggled with the tyres and setup issues in the midseason before a perfect weekend for him at Spa, after that he did okay though not as well as Lewis, ended the season with another win albeit due to the incident packed race, still he did the job and it was again a 3 race win season for him, taking his total with McLaren to 8 and in total to 15...

this season so far McLaren have struggled so it's harder to judge, he would have got a top 5 finish in Malaysia without McLaren ****ing his pitstop up, then did get 5th in China, going into Bahrain he had outperformed Perez easily in fact. Bahrain he lost out due to the tyre wear, arguably with better tyres he could have beaten Perez there as well. in Spain he struggled in qualifying but got his race strategy right to find himself in front of Perez despite starting much further down the grid, after that McLaren sensibly told them to save tyres rather than race each other and risk one or both of them having to pit again...

if McLaren improve then Jenson can definitely get podiums and maybe even win races this season, next year is an unkown as is 2015, though Honda's return could help him should be still be with McLaren as he has raced with their engines before and will likely know some of the people working on the car as a result.

to say he isn't one of the greats is risible and just shows the patheticness of his critics, he is already easily much better than people like Villeneuve for instance.

[Cesc]

For me, it is just a feeling that you have when you see the driver in certain conditions.

Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton are the top 3, they are THE STARS of the movie. For Alonso you could tell he was something special even at some stage when driving the Minardi, which was REALLY crap and yet he had some extraordinary races (Australia, Montmeló, quali lap at Hungaroring...) and everything was confirmed on 2003, suddenly a new player in the grid. At that point, Alonso was clearly a potential WDC to me.

With Hamilton it was different, he showed very good skills, but what gave him credibility was McLaren behind. I'm not sure what impression would we had got if he was driving a Sauber or a Toro Rosso back then.

Vettel showed very good skills as well, his win was an unexpected one (despite it was a strange race in Monza 2008, Bourdais qualifies close to him...I don't know what happened to that car that day!) with in theory a mid-field car and had some other good races. I'm not sure what I though back then, but although I'm sure I had the impression of a brilliant newcomer, I guess I was not convinced he would be WDC. Despite his habilities, he has had a superb car after all, something I didn't expect at all.

In the current grid, there are some drivers capable of wining a WDC, but everything would be more down to "luck" (I mean, being in the right place and in the right moment). I can't see any future star out there.

[motorhead]

Talking about champs, didn't know where to place this MIka Hakkinen intervier.

http://www.youtube.c...player_embedded

This was very interesting . It seems that some remembers Mika only from 98 and 99 and forgets how talented this guy really was. I believe he would have continued driving many years more if that accident wouldn´t have happened.