39 replies to this topic

[Fondmetal]

If next years cars are going to be a few seconds a lap slower, we could end up with the bottom half of the F1 grid being as quick as or slower that front running GP2 cars.. How embarassing would that be for F1.

Today the slowest F1 driven by Geigo Van De Garde did a 1.37.97 compared to GP2 pole lap be Leimer of 1.39.427 which is less than 1.5 seconds.

[SamH123]

Do you know the GP2 regs for next year though?

[Ravenak]

If next years cars are going to be a few seconds a lap slower, we could end up with the bottom half of the F1 grid being as quick as or slower that front running GP2 cars.. How embarassing would that be for F1.

Today the slowest F1 driven by Geigo Van De Garde did a 1.37.97 compared to GP2 pole lap be Leimer of 1.39.427 which is less than 1.5 seconds.

It's been like this for a little while now.

Plus, it doesn't matter, because GP2 is not advertised to the general public, not many people watch it or even know about it.

F1 cars will stay the fastest racing cars (I don't count IndyCar) and will probably gain a few seconds, over time, in the V6 era.

[Seanspeed]

We've still got FP3 and then qualifying to go, both of which usually get faster and faster. So the gap is likely bigger than 1.5 seconds in reality.

[SpaMaster]

Are F1 and GP2 regulations same though? F1 regulations are much tougher. To get to even the same speed against much tougher regulations is still special. It is not just the end-speed that matters.

[Fulcrum]

I think the Super Formula is bigger problem than GP2.

Last year in Suzuka the slowest F1 lap time was 1:36.734. The SF pole time last weekend was 1:38.217. And Super Formula will introduce their new car next year which will be significantly faster than current one.

Edited by Fulcrum, 19 April 2013 - 17:25.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Laptimes are a reflection of rules though, so you can make a 'slower' series car go pretty quick depending on what you allow it to do.

Back when Montoya raced in CART one of his sponsors wanted to film a commercial, but testing for the day was too expensive. It was cheaper to use an old car with a different engine and unlimited tires/aero. They broke the lap record.

[Clatter]

Are F1 and GP2 regulations same though? F1 regulations are much tougher. To get to even the same speed against much tougher regulations is still special. It is not just the end-speed that matters.

I'd say the majority of people couldn't give a damn about how hard it might be against a given set of rules. If GP2 manages faster or very close lap times to F1 then it will be very difficult to continue calling F1 the pinnacle of motorsport.

[SpaMaster]

I'd say the majority of people couldn't give a damn about how hard it might be against a given set of rules. If GP2 manages faster or very close lap times to F1 then it will be very difficult to continue calling F1 the pinnacle of motorsport.

That's the point. It would be very easy to be faster than GP2. All you need is to tweak the rules a bit. F1 does have better money and skills, so it would always be made sure it is faster than GP2. No biggie.

[Clatter]

But the fact we are having to consider it makes F1 look less special.

[Seanspeed]

But the fact we are having to consider it makes F1 look less special.

Yea, part of the marvel of F1 is the superfast cars. It'll still probably remain the 'pinnacle' in terms of the teams involved and for driver aspiration, but for the general image of the sport, being faster than anything else is a big part of what makes it special.

I'll be happy so long as the lead cars remain a notable amount faster. If a few of the backmarkers get surpassed by some spec series, thats not too big a deal. But this trend of a narrowing gap will have to stop soon and hopefully the FIA take that into consideration with future regulations.

[SpaMaster]

Most common fans don't even realize that. The serious ones would be intelligent enough to the class of F1 no matter what. Either way F1 is still much faster than GP2. I haven't considered they are comparable until now, nor do I believe it even now. This is a non-issue.

[Fondmetal]

I'd say the majority of people couldn't give a damn about how hard it might be against a given set of rules. If GP2 manages faster or very close lap times to F1 then it will be very difficult to continue calling F1 the pinnacle of motorsport.

Thats my whole point, F1 is the pinnacle, it should be special the ultimate, making people amazed by its speed..and around 10 seconds faster than the next series, over the years GP2 have been getting closer and closer..

In 2005, Mark Webber did a 1.29.5 in Saturday 2nd practice, lets say if pole is in 1.33 range these cars are still over 3-4 seconds slower than they were in 2005 and thats with the hard tyres they used that year to last a whole race.

[BRG]

Does it matter? They don't race together, do they, so there is no on track comparison.

Back in the day, Peter Gethin won the non-championship Race of Champions of 1973 in a F5000 Chevron, beating all the F1 entries. And the sky didn't fall - as I recall, there wasn't even any real comment other than to congratulate Gethin for a good drive.

[Seanspeed]

Does it matter? They don't race together, do they, so there is no on track comparison.

Back in the day, Peter Gethin won the non-championship Race of Champions of 1973 in a F5000 Chevron, beating all the F1 entries. And the sky didn't fall - as I recall, there wasn't even any real comment other than to congratulate Gethin for a good drive.

Things have changed. Sports cars used to be faster than the F1 single-seaters and that was normal then, but not now. F1 has climbed to reach a higher prestige since then. I think its important to keep that. Saying they should be 10 seconds faster than everything else is ridiculous, but a few seconds faster I dont think is unreasonable.

[Fondmetal]

Does it matter? They don't race together, do they, so there is no on track comparison.

Back in the day, Peter Gethin won the non-championship Race of Champions of 1973 in a F5000 Chevron, beating all the F1 entries. And the sky didn't fall - as I recall, there wasn't even any real comment other than to congratulate Gethin for a good drive.

They are on the same race weekends so yes it would, you cannot call F1 the pinnacle and have a lesser junior series almost as quick, just doesnt make sense.

Since 2005, GP2 cars have gained 4-5 seconds on average where as F1 cars have become slower. In 2005 Nico Rosberg took pole at Bahrain in 1.44.6

Edited by Fondmetal, 19 April 2013 - 18:54.

[Morbus]

Besides, a practice lap is a practice lap. To compare it against a pole lap is... well, the engines are revved down, they go easy on the tires, they use the harder compound, they are going balls out and, well, I expect Diego to go one or two seconds faster by tomorrow afternoon.

[Clatter]

Does it matter? They don't race together, do they, so there is no on track comparison.

Back in the day, Peter Gethin won the non-championship Race of Champions of 1973 in a F5000 Chevron, beating all the F1 entries. And the sky didn't fall - as I recall, there wasn't even any real comment other than to congratulate Gethin for a good drive.

Please tell us your just kidding with that comment.

GP2 follows the F1 circus and are coming out to play this very weekend.

[BRG]

Please tell us your just kidding with that comment.

GP2 follows the F1 circus and are coming out to play this very weekend.

No kidding. It really doesn't matter at all. Nobody ever sees a GP2 car racing against an F1 car even if they are at the same weekend meeting. It's only if you study a stopwatch that any difference is exposed. There have been many cars faster than F1 in the past without F1 being deposed from the top step so why be precious about it now?

[DivinaGalica]

If next years cars are going to be a few seconds a lap slower, we could end up with the bottom half of the F1 grid being as quick as or slower that front running GP2 cars.. How embarassing would that be for F1.

Today the slowest F1 driven by Geigo Van De Garde did a 1.37.97 compared to GP2 pole lap be Leimer of 1.39.427 which is less than 1.5 seconds.

Interesting if you consider the GP2 cars don't have KERS or DRS which at Bahrain must be worth over 0.5s.

You are assuming that the 2014 F1 cars will be slower though - we will see.....

DG

[Clatter]

No kidding. It really doesn't matter at all. Nobody ever sees a GP2 car racing against an F1 car even if they are at the same weekend meeting. It's only if you study a stopwatch that any difference is exposed. There have been many cars faster than F1 in the past without F1 being deposed from the top step so why be precious about it now?

In the past maybe, but things have moved on some since then and they cannot advertise it as the pinnacle of motorsport if the feeder series is faster.

Edited by Clatter, 19 April 2013 - 19:43.

[DivinaGalica]

In the past maybe, but things have moved on some since then and they cannot advertise it as the pinnacle of motorsport if the feeder series is faster.

...also the OP was comparing the fastest GP2 qualifier against the slowest F1 car - the top F1 cars a well clear of GP2....

DG

[Clatter]

...also the OP was comparing the fastest GP2 qualifier against the slowest F1 car - the top F1 cars a well clear of GP2....

DG

At the moment, but F1 has been going backwards speedwise and next years cars are expected to be slower again. It might be that they don't lose any speed, but the original brief was to be no more than 5 seconds slower.

[chrisblades85]

Be interesting to see what Caterham and Marussia spend to be a few seconds quicker than a ART for Arden for example.

Edit: Only realised my phone messed that last bit up.

Edited by chrisblades85, 19 April 2013 - 22:38.

[DanardiF1]

Be interesting to see what Caterham and Marussia spend to be a few seconds quicker than a ART
or Arden for example.

You'd have to ask Dallara what their development program cost for the car. Also remember that Dallara aren't really having to adhere to a regulation book, they are basically told what elements the car should, presumably a target laptime or % of the F1 times, and then just build a car. They can use ground effects more (as they did big time on the previous car) for cheap downforce and don't need to really refine much seeing as the whole grid uses the same kit.

[Ross Stonefeld]

...also the OP was comparing the fastest GP2 qualifier against the slowest F1 car - the top F1 cars a well clear of GP2....

DG

Woah, did not expect to see this person in GP2 thread.

But welcome

[Fastcake]

I don't believe the cars will be that much slower that GP2 laptimes will be quicker than the backmarkers. There's still a cushion of several seconds. Even if the times are very close, even the slowest F1 cars will be developing their cars and gradually making them quicker, while the spec GP2 cars will be going nowhere. The gap should be fine, and in the worst scenario Bernie will just detune the GP2's engines and add on a second a lap.

[Rubens Hakkamacher]

Thats my whole point, F1 is the pinnacle, it should be special the ultimate, making people amazed by its speed..and around 10 seconds faster than the next series,

Not just that, but the idea of it getting slower is... anti-F1.

There was a point - maybe around 2002, when most everything about "F1" was astounding, the hp, lap times, etc.. That is as it should be, IMO. "Pretty much faster than GP2"... doesn't get it. Particularly when at one point the question was the debate between Champ cars and F1 - would present F1 cars be able to handle the waning days of Champ cars spec?


Going slower flies in the face of what is supposed to be the ultimate racing series. This whole "the fans don't know" thing doesn't fly with me - I've yet to encounter a "dullard" F1 "fan" that doesn't keep track of pretty much everything. Take the bragging rights of the performance figures from the scheme, throw in the artifice of having to run 2 tire compounds and DRS... why is F1 better than LeMans again?
5 seconds slower? That's the same philosophy of saying "we don't need Usain Bolt to have an interesting race, you can't see the difference between him running and a bunch of Joe Smoes, why bother?".

YMMV.

[Kerch]

What about a race pace comparison?

Perhaps that's not entirely fair as I presume GP2 races are much shorter, but still, the heavy fuel and tyre saving has made F1 race pace a bit pedestrian.

[pingu666]

gp2 cars have the same tyres.

a interesting point to ponder would be a gp2 car, bridgestone/michlin tyres, and a refueling rig.

[DrProzac]

We can expect the FIA to make the lower series slower

[Scotracer]

Pinnacle =/= fastest.

Also, watch in qualifying where the slowest F1 car lies. Guitierrez should NOT have been as slow as he was.

It's a childish concept, really:

F1 is still the fastest around a lap
F1 is still the costliest for teams
F1 is still the highest power output (and will only just fall behind the LMP1 cars in 2014)
F1 still has the best drivers

F1 is the pinnacle

[EightGear]

F1 still has the best drivers

I still doubt that. It depends on how you define 'drivers.' Just on the circuits or all kinds of motorsports?
And still there are some better drivers on the sidelines than in F1 at the moment.

Edited by EightGear, 20 April 2013 - 10:25.

[rhukkas]

Pinnacle =/= fastest.

Also, watch in qualifying where the slowest F1 car lies. Guitierrez should NOT have been as slow as he was.

It's a childish concept, really:

F1 is still the fastest around a lap
F1 is still the costliest for teams
F1 is still the highest power output (and will only just fall behind the LMP1 cars in 2014)
F1 still has the best drivers

F1 is the pinnacle

hahaha


hahahaha


hahahhhhaha

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH

[Seanspeed]

Today the slowest F1 driven by Geigo Van De Garde did a 1.37.97 compared to GP2 pole lap be Leimer of 1.39.427 which is less than 1.5 seconds.

To ease a bit of the concern, the backmarkers were in the 1:35's and 1:36's in FP3 and might get quicker still here in qualifying. Chilton only managed a 1:37, but he also apparently had some problem. So even as of now, gap is opening up to 3-4 seconds.

[Ross Stonefeld]

hahaha


hahahaha


hahahhhhaha

HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH

There's wankers on every grid, but if you average the talent level of F1, I can't think of any series that comes close. NASCAR perhaps but that's a limited talent pool. It's not like you can claim the Indycar grid is better.

[Otaku]

3 seconds

[rhukkas]

There's wankers on every grid, but if you average the talent level of F1, I can't think of any series that comes close. NASCAR perhaps but that's a limited talent pool. It's not like you can claim the Indycar grid is better.

That's because you don't watch enough motorsport. I suggest you take a look at KZ1.

[Ross Stonefeld]

*I* don't watch enough motorsport? Because I don't follow karting? And when did KZ1 replace FA/KF1?

[HaydenFan]

*I* don't watch enough motorsport? Because I don't follow karting? And when did KZ1 replace FA/KF1?

KZ1 never replaced Formula A/KF1. KZ1 was known as Super ICC/Formula C, with the full 6 speed gearbox. KZ1 might have the power and speed over the KF1, but it is not the top place in karting.

Plus, karting is a completely different animal. It'd go on the same argument that World Rally Championship have the best drivers. Same with what you said about NASCAR. Completely different type of motorsport to single seater formula racing.

Edited by HaydenFan, 20 April 2013 - 12:19.