39 replies to this topic

[handel]

I believe this topic should be considered separate from the discussion about Pirelli's being used in the current year, and the last two of F1.

Basically what I'm getting at is that the Formula is being reinvented hugely in 2014 by the new engine regulations, and I believe although they were shelved (I've got that right haven't I?) there were also those plans to reduce the size of wings etc to limit the increasing effect of aerodynamics.

The issue I have is that the current tyres Pirelli make might arguably shake things up a bit with this stagnant set of rules, but come the new engines won't we want something a little closer to the Bridgestone super tyres of old? I'm not advocating going completely back to that era but the new engines are going to deliver massive lumps of torque, and the new ERS systems are presumably going to mean drivers when battling are doing so at potentially large power differences. I would be surprised if we don't see tons of wheelspin and sideways action as a result of this, the likes of which if you subjected the current tyres to, they would be destroyed.

That said, what would you like to see in terms of tyres in 2014? How would you design a tyre to punish drivers for taking liberties but at the same time give freedom to drivers and let us get the most out of the engine regs?

This is especially pertinent as I don't think the tyre contract has yet been agreed for next year?

[Clatter]

I believe this topic should be considered separate from the discussion about Pirelli's being used in the current year, and the last two of F1.

Basically what I'm getting at is that the Formula is being reinvented hugely in 2014 by the new engine regulations, and I believe although they were shelved (I've got that right haven't I?) there were also those plans to reduce the size of wings etc to limit the increasing effect of aerodynamics.

The issue I have is that the current tyres Pirelli make might arguably shake things up a bit with this stagnant set of rules, but come the new engines won't we want something a little closer to the Bridgestone super tyres of old? I'm not advocating going completely back to that era but the new engines are going to deliver massive lumps of torque, and the new ERS systems are presumably going to mean drivers when battling are doing so at potentially large power differences. I would be surprised if we don't see tons of wheelspin and sideways action as a result of this, the likes of which if you subjected the current tyres to, they would be destroyed.

That said, what would you like to see in terms of tyres in 2014? How would you design a tyre to punish drivers for taking liberties but at the same time give freedom to drivers and let us get the most out of the engine regs?

This is especially pertinent as I don't think the tyre contract has yet been agreed for next year?

It has now. Pirelli have a new 5 year contract.

[Atreiu]

They do? It was signed this week?

[Sakae]

I read somewhere that tire contract is not signed, and it is going through some posturing. If memory serves, Ecclestone' position is "I am done with negotiations", whereas Pirelli's position is, "he (Ecclestone) thinks that he is done with negotiations", implying, they are not. So, we wait.

Edited by Sakae, 20 April 2013 - 16:58.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Aren't next year's cars going to have a bit less power?

[handel]

They do? It was signed this week?

Ah, I thought on the Sky broadcast they said it was 'close' but not agreed.

Aren't next year's cars going to have a bit less power?

A touch less yes but the power is going to come in lumps. Also the turbo/ERS systems are subject to a time delay, so there will be a certain art in putting the power down before you have any confidence that it's needed. That in turn should lead to drivers breaking traction more than currently

[Clatter]

I read somewhere that tire contract is not signed, and it is going through some posturing. If memory serves, Ecclestone' position is "I am done with negotiations", whereas Pirelli's position is, "he (Ecclestone) thinks that he is done with negotiations", implying, they are not. So, we wait.

During Q they said the contract has been signed. Official announcement won't be far away.

From where have you got the indication that Pirelli are the ones holding things up?

http://news.yahoo.co...947953--f1.html
Formula One supremo Bernie Ecclestone told reporters that, from his part, a deal was signed but it also has to be agreed by the teams and the Paris-based governing International Automobile Federation (FIA).

[Sakae]

During Q they said the contract has been signed. Official announcement won't be far away.

From where have you got the indication that Pirelli are the ones holding things up?

Where I got that impression? Interview.

I shall paraphrase, but Ecclestone provided short, laconic response, I am done, but Pirelli did not acknowledged, yes, it's a done deal. (Could be money, could be that it is before Pirelli's board for signature, I am not sure, and until that lady sings...).

Edited by Sakae, 20 April 2013 - 18:10.

[handel]

I think it's fair enough if Pirelli get the contract again, that's no issue - they'll make whatever the sport wants. If they don't after direct instruction then they'll look a bit useless, but hey ho.

But what tyres do you actually want them to make? Tbh I'd prefer them not to provide tyres that fall apart quite as much simply because the engines won't be as driveable and I want the drivers to push and take risks rather than cacking themselves that a couple of turbo induced doses of wheelspin won't screw them.

The current tyres are argued to be necessary with the current regs, but with new regs there'll be enough excitement without such brittle tyres?

Edited by handel, 20 April 2013 - 20:15.

[BigCHrome]

Knowing Pirelli and FIA, they are probably going to continue with useless tires, even though it makes all the sense in the world to have stable tires for next year.

[handel]

I suppose we need a bit more comment first on how the cars are going to behave. Joe Saward (who I too have my opinions on) did say in a podcast that the turbo lag on the new units is still massive. I can't remember if it was on The Flying Lap as well that the idea of them being far less drivable in terms of the torque band came up and the inference was that getting the power down will be interesting.

To illustrate this the reason Kimi won in Aus was super tyre management and someone from Lotus said he broke traction on the tyres twice (!) in the entire race which was the key to avoiding degradation.

Anyway, I just don't want the first new thing in years to be ruined by tyres which they are currently scared to death to push on.

[peroa]

Here we go again...

http://www.crash.net...r-lock-ups.html

[boldhakka]

Here we go again...

http://www.crash.net...r-lock-ups.html

 

I like how he's so casual about it. "We're keeping an eye on it". So he's ready to change the tyre specs in the middle of the season again. 

[Bartonz20let]

I thought this years were tougher? 

 

Also, yet to see any pics of marbles

[Clatter]

So a driver has a massive lockup causing damage to the tyre, but it's Pirelli's fault? 

[PIJAMAS]

Don't believe the 2014 will be anything on the other extreme of what we saw in 2013. Pirelli can't do that and their 2014 tyres will just wear a bit less but will still make a difference on controlling the race pace

[ExFlagMan]

So a driver has a massive lockup causing damage to the tyre, but it's Pirelli's fault?

Probably, given that the common view on here seemed to be that if drivers smashed their tyres over sharp kerb edges and ran into delamination problems it was all Pirelli's fault

[KingTiger]

So a driver has a massive lockup causing damage to the tyre, but it's Pirelli's fault? 

 

Rear tires locking up isn't really a driver's fault. 

[darkkis]

Rear tires locking up isn't really a driver's fault. 

Then it's rear brake by wire's fault, but doesn't make it Pirelli's fault any more so.

[RealRacing]

It's interesting to see that there weren't too many comments about tyres during testing this time around. This can probably mean two things:

 

-The poor guys were so busy with engines and brakes and fuel and ERS and all the other crap they have to juggle with, that they didn't even have time or energy to complain about the tyres, or

 

-Taking into account the increased torque and other changes, Pirelli realized that tyres shouldn't be protagonists in F1 races and that the guidelines they gave them and the resulting product were actually hurting their brand,  and actually decided to give them decent tyres...

[Disgrace]

For 2014, I've incorporated a new stance regarding the tyres. It goes along the line of "lalalalala I'm not listening!"

Edited by Disgrace, 06 March 2014 - 22:30.

[RealRacing]

For 2014, I've incorporated a new stance regarding the tyres. It goes along the line of "lalalalala I'm not listening!"

And rightly so as your ears will be bombarded with plenty of other noises, mostly the noise of a variety of piston salads being prepared, but probably also a florid vocabulary from drivers, mechanics, team principals, et. al.  

[OO7]

I swear if we spend more time in 2014 talking about the Pirelli tyres than we do about the new power units....................................

[f1RacingForever]

I hope everyone likes cheese...

[slideways]

Probably, given that the common view on here seemed to be that if drivers smashed their tyres over sharp kerb edges and ran into delamination problems it was all Pirelli's fault

It is because their mandate is to deliver a tyre that can handle all circuits on the calendar, including varying surfaces, kerb designs, cambers etc. If they have a specific problem with a circuit they are unable to build the tyre around, they must inform the FIA who will evaluate changes to the circuit (eg rounding off sharp kerbs).

 

Of course reality is that they forget to do their homework, or the circuit makes an unlisted change to a kerb or grill or something and they get caught out.

[Lazy]

The fact is that last year the tyre problems were very much the teams fault, basically from using them outside the design parameters of pressure and camber.

 

Building a race tyre that is immune to lock ups is impossible.

[ollebompa]

Pirellis directive should be to make a range of tires that take the cars a race distanse, under any given condition or on any given track, as fast as possible. Number of pitsops does not matter. That way they can also do some acual development and benefit some on the technical side.

[SpaMaster]

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/113062

 

The usual narcisstic soundbites from Pirelli. Teams have all focused on powertrain teething issues so far, they still have work to do on understanding THE TYRES, they would try to integrate chassis-TYRES and this would help them make BIG STEPS, blah blah.. What a shameless person, organization, way of F1 working!

[stanga]

Yet again Pirelli tries to play the part of the 12th team.

 

Have we heard from Brenbo, Carbon Industries or the Silverstone Paddock Club catering services yet? 

[Atreiu]

I guess they are not content unless they get a certain ammount of press/attention over each GP. And since this time they have come after engine noise, brake by wire, all those new abreviations, fuel flow rates, fuel consumption and unreliability, it must have been a 'bad' GP for them.

 

Sigh.

[Anderis]

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/113062

 

The usual narcisstic soundbites from Pirelli. Teams have all focused on powertrain teething issues so far, they still have work to do on understanding THE TYRES, they would try to integrate chassis-TYRES and this would help them make BIG STEPS, blah blah.. What a shameless person, organization, way of F1 working!

Does this comment really deserve so much whinging from you? Which part of it is really that much inappropriate and why?

 

It really doesn't sound too much different from what I'm used to reading from teams, suppliers etc. in F1.

[Seanspeed]

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/113062
 
The usual narcisstic soundbites from Pirelli. Teams have all focused on powertrain teething issues so far, they still have work to do on understanding THE TYRES, they would try to integrate chassis-TYRES and this would help them make BIG STEPS, blah blah.. What a shameless person, organization, way of F1 working!

Proof that people on the internet will get upset about absolutely *anything*.

[Lazy]

Proof that people on the internet will get upset about absolutely *anything*.

Indeed, tyre company promotes relevance of tyres shock!

[SpaMaster]

Proof that people on the internet will get upset about absolutely *anything*.

Says who? 

[RealRacing]

The first race did not allow me to see, nor have I found any news or comments on it, the change -if any- of these year's vs last year's tyres. The most upsetting piece of information I got from Australia was Alonso's pit to driver comm., basically telling him to stay put because his predecessor was 6 secs ahead and his follower could not bother him. If this was because of fuel, tyres, engine, other or all of them I don't know, but it certainly did not give me a good impression of the new regs vis a vis last year, i.e., no improvement in the racing side of things. I know, it was the first race and it will take a couple of races to get it sorted and maybe then we'll see the result, but the whole approach to racing has, IMO, not changed dramatically and on-track action will not markedly improve. 

[PIJAMAS]

Yes, RealRacing, you're right!

 

There will be no "real racing" this year, as well. The tyres still need to be "nursed", they are only slightly harder

 

As Hembery already said many times, given the increase in torque and decrease in downforce, they couldn't make their tyres much harder otherwise it would slide too much, causing even more wear.

[PIJAMAS]

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/113167

 

Pirelli

 

They should provide tyres for racing but they can't do that. Hulk should have had tyres that could hold themselves together to let him fight for his position with Alonso, instead of being a sitting duck

 

And the marbles off the racing line were still too much

[Exb]

They should provide tyres for racing but they can't do that. Hulk should have had tyres that could hold themselves together to let him fight for his position with Alonso, instead of being a sitting duck

Hulkenberg was on a different strategy and has stopped one less time than Alonso, therefore his tyres were always going to be more worn and slower. If the tyres held together better then Alonso would have stopped less as well and Hulkenberg would have been behind him anyway.

[boldhakka]

Marbles: 

https://imgur.com/feHFcml

[akshay380]

Compared to last years marbles, these are nothing. I would say OK job my pirelli so far. Also the tires are not going down to canvas with a single lockup so thats a positive too.