Alonso- Perez/Perez- Button
#1
Posted 21 April 2013 - 14:20
I am new here and foreign, so sorry about my english.
I wish to know what do you think about the "incident" between Alonso and Perez because CHeco dind't leave space and the "incidente" with Button because this did the same to Checo.
For me I think that is the same incidente happened the las year betwenn Alonso and vettel and, if I don't remember bad Vettel was penalished.
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#2
Posted 21 April 2013 - 14:25
#3
Posted 21 April 2013 - 14:32
Perez and Button clearly deserves penalty there is hard racing and there is dirty racing, also Perez "touched" Button two times.
#4
Posted 21 April 2013 - 14:36
#5
Posted 21 April 2013 - 14:45
Tbh I thought what Button did to Perez was the naughtiest of them all, which is very surprising given that he's usually clean as they come.
I remember Canada and his pushing Hamilton into the wall, so it doesn't surprise me. What does surprise me, is that he's on the radio bitching about Perez being over aggressive...
#6
Posted 21 April 2013 - 14:46
I remember Canada and his pushing Hamilton into the wall, so it doesn't surprise me. What does surprise me, is that he's on the radio bitching about Perez being over aggressive...
Great win by Jenson. Wonderful race that.
#7
Posted 21 April 2013 - 14:47
Either you make sure you have space or back the hell out of it...
#8
Posted 21 April 2013 - 14:49
The German commentators pointed out that this rule specifically applies to straights, not corners. But anyway, as said, if you're going to overtake around the outside, it's always a risk. I'm fairly sure this stuff only happens because there's tarmac everywhere. If the drivers knew they'd hit the grass they'd never bother with some of these pointless moves.The rule about leaving other driver a space is exactly in force since Bahrain 2012, when Rosberg pushed Alonso and Hamilton off the track.
#9
Posted 21 April 2013 - 14:54
I remember Canada and his pushing Hamilton into the wall, so it doesn't surprise me. What does surprise me, is that he's on the radio bitching about Perez being over aggressive...
Great win by Jenson. Wonderful race that.
Yes, that was a very well judged win. One of the best.
#10
Posted 21 April 2013 - 14:56
I'm getting sick of this sh!tty rule. If you're going to try and overtake round the outside of a corner, or indeed anywhere, it is your own responsibility to make sure you have enough space to complete the move. It is not the job of the defending driver to leave you space.
Either you make sure you have space or back the hell out of it...
when people make this comment I am left bemused.
Obviously the space is there in the first place for the overtake attempt to be even attempted.
So what you failing to see is its not the car behind trying to overtake when is no gap, but the leading car closing/removing the gap during the overtake move.
Edited by chrcol, 21 April 2013 - 14:58.
#11
Posted 21 April 2013 - 14:57
I'm getting sick of this sh!tty rule. If you're going to try and overtake round the outside of a corner, or indeed anywhere, it is your own responsibility to make sure you have enough space to complete the move. It is not the job of the defending driver to leave you space.
Either you make sure you have space or back the hell out of it...
Mmmmm. I think you are wrong, at least int his case.
Alonso and Checho had the space but if they will keep on their way they had crashed with Checo and Button respectively. That's why they finished off the track. If they don't move they crash.
Edited by lemikox, 21 April 2013 - 14:58.
#12
Posted 21 April 2013 - 14:58
I'm getting sick of this sh!tty rule. If you're going to try and overtake round the outside of a corner, or indeed anywhere, it is your own responsibility to make sure you have enough space to complete the move. It is not the job of the defending driver to leave you space.
Either you make sure you have space or back the hell out of it...
It is not as black and white as that. If a car is completely alongside you, you can't just do anything you like as if it wasn't there. The grey area (for me, not for the rules) is when one car is partially alongside and wants to sit it out.
#13
Posted 21 April 2013 - 15:03
#14
Posted 21 April 2013 - 15:04
#15
Posted 21 April 2013 - 15:34
Actually you dont have to leave space coming out of the corner, it is just into corner where that rule applies. It you would have to leave the space coming out of the corner it would change defending completely as better position to defend would be outside on racing line. Inside driver would have to brake earlier, turn tighter and could open throttle much later than the driver on outside.
How come they penalized Vettel for it in Monza then, wasn't that also out of a corner?
#16
Posted 21 April 2013 - 15:34
#17
Posted 21 April 2013 - 16:02
Does anyone have a link to clarify the rule?
Sorry couldn't resist
#18
Posted 21 April 2013 - 16:06
Well done, you've just unintentionally described racing. The only thing you forgot is how the driver on the inside has to travel less distance, but a proper attempt nonetheless.If you would have to leave the space coming out of the corner it would change defending completely as better position to defend would be outside on racing line. Inside driver would have to brake earlier, turn tighter and could open throttle much later than the driver on outside.
Bonus points for the use of Fernando's "leave the space".
Edited by Lights, 21 April 2013 - 16:07.
#19
Posted 21 April 2013 - 19:04
Well done, you've just unintentionally described racing. The only thing you forgot is how the driver on the inside has to travel less distance, but a proper attempt nonetheless.
Bonus points for the use of Fernando's "leave the space".
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#20
Posted 21 April 2013 - 19:13
I'm getting sick of this sh!tty rule. If you're going to try and overtake round the outside of a corner, or indeed anywhere, it is your own responsibility to make sure you have enough space to complete the move. It is not the job of the defending driver to leave you space.
Either you make sure you have space or back the hell out of it...
I disagree.
If you have left enough room for another driver to get alongside then you have lost the right to that piece of track and should not be allowed to move over as if the other guy is not there.
#21
Posted 21 April 2013 - 19:20
I do not understand why the defending car should be allowed to drive at the racing line even if it meant that it'll push the attacking car out of the track or force him to break - I never have and never will. I play a lot of online racing simulators and the behavior we see on F1 would mean almost a definite kick and ban from the servers. The only excuse I've given myself so I would understand this is that the mirrors on the F1 cars are so poor they don't have the same luxury as I do when playing a simulator and thus the rules need to be different. Still, I don't understand them one bit.
I think both of these moves should've definitely deserved a penalty of some sorts, but only during the race. No penalties after the race unless the incident is at the very end of a race.
Edited by JakBot, 21 April 2013 - 19:23.
#22
Posted 21 April 2013 - 19:32
So you missed Alonso, Raikkonen and Hamilton bitching about Perez at China?.... What does surprise me, is that he's on the radio bitching about Perez being over aggressive...
#23
Posted 21 April 2013 - 19:39
The rule about leaving other driver a space is exactly in force since Bahrain 2012, when Rosberg pushed Alonso and Hamilton off the track.
Perez and Button clearly deserves penalty there is hard racing and there is dirty racing, also Perez "touched" Button two times.
I believe those are slitly different incidents.
Rosberg pushed alonso on the straight, he moved over for the sole purpose of blocking alonso.
Button was following his racing line when he pushed perez off the track, when perez went alongside button, button was ahead and had his right to follow through on his racing line; it was perez's decision whether to brave it on the outside or to backout
#24
Posted 21 April 2013 - 20:11
Vettel in Monza?I believe those are slitly different incidents.
Rosberg pushed alonso on the straight, he moved over for the sole purpose of blocking alonso.
Button was following his racing line when he pushed perez off the track, when perez went alongside button, button was ahead and had his right to follow through on his racing line; it was perez's decision whether to brave it on the outside or to backout
#25
Posted 21 April 2013 - 20:13
Button was following his racing line when he pushed perez off the track, when perez went alongside button, button was ahead and had his right to follow through on his racing line; it was perez's decision whether to brave it on the outside or to backout
Once the trailing car is alongside, the leading car has to leave enough space. He can't just push the one attempting the pass off the track. The decision to back out or not has to be made by the trailing car depending on balls and whether he thinks he can or can't make the corner, but the one in front should always leave enough space. Just imagine that instead of concrete there was grass or sand and you'll get the idea.
#26
Posted 21 April 2013 - 20:37
Once the trailing car is alongside, the leading car has to leave enough space. He can't just push the one attempting the pass off the track. The decision to back out or not has to be made by the trailing car depending on balls and whether he thinks he can or can't make the corner, but the one in front should always leave enough space. Just imagine that instead of concrete there was grass or sand and you'll get the idea.
Correct, you cant just have a car next to you, ignore him and say "I was on the racing line". Thats not how it works
#27
Posted 21 April 2013 - 20:51
Rosberg's position should be considered "alongside" Webber right? Yet Webber turns like Rosberg does not even exist there. Isn't he supposed to leave space while turning in this case too?
Regardless of regulations I really enjoyed the fights but I think this one was a bit too much. Maybe the way the stewards handled this is related to the other 2 incidents.
Link:
edit: typos
Edited by Lelouch, 21 April 2013 - 20:52.
#28
Posted 21 April 2013 - 20:53
Isn't the Webber - Rosberg incident a similar situation?
Rosberg's position should be considered "alongside" Webber right? Yet Webber turns like Rosberg does not even exist there. Isn't he supposed to leave space while turning in this case too?
Regardless of regulations I really enjoyed the fights but I think this one was a bit too much. Maybe the way the stewards handled this is related to the other 2 incidents.
Link:
edit: typos
Yep, that's Webbers fault, he had to take an "outside" approach on the corner.
#29
Posted 21 April 2013 - 21:00
#30
Posted 21 April 2013 - 21:06
Once the trailing car is alongside, the leading car has to leave enough space. He can't just push the one attempting the pass off the track. The decision to back out or not has to be made by the trailing car depending on balls and whether he thinks he can or can't make the corner, but the one in front should always leave enough space. Just imagine that instead of concrete there was grass or sand and you'll get the idea.
Correct, you cant just have a car next to you, ignore him and say "I was on the racing line". Thats not how it works
I think it largely depends on how far up alongside the trailing car is, the type of corner, and the momentum the cars are relatively carrying through.
We've seen drivers doing it for years and when done correctly, they never get punished for it. Brundle often comments that they are well within their rights to do so.
#31
Posted 21 April 2013 - 21:23
I think it largely depends on how far up alongside the trailing car is, the type of corner, and the momentum the cars are relatively carrying through.
We've seen drivers doing it for years and when done correctly, they never get punished for it. Brundle often comments that they are well within their rights to do so.
Agree, at a certain point it comes down to driver judgement, both leading and trailing. If the trailing driver sees that the one in front is going to need the whole track because he has come in too hot, he better get out of there because he's going to get pushed no matter what. And if the leading driver has enough control and sees the one behind already overlapped, he should leave space. A very fine line. However, with grass or sand, these things tend to sort themselves out better.
A similar situation, and I was wondering what people's opinion was on this one Perez on ALonso.
#32
Posted 21 April 2013 - 21:38
Agree, at a certain point it comes down to driver judgement, both leading and trailing. If the trailing driver sees that the one in front is going to need the whole track because he has come in too hot, he better get out of there because he's going to get pushed no matter what. And if the leading driver has enough control and sees the one behind already overlapped, he should leave space. A very fine line. However, with grass or sand, these things tend to sort themselves out better.
A similar situation, and I was wondering what people's opinion was on this one Perez on ALonso.
Thats a nice way of putting it
With regards to the alonso perez overtake, i cant say for sure without seeing another angle, but i think perez must have had his nose infront at some point through the corner, therefore making him the leading driver- which is why alonso allowed him the room on the exit
Edited by Masenco, 21 April 2013 - 21:39.
#33
Posted 21 April 2013 - 21:53
#34
Posted 21 April 2013 - 22:47
#35
Posted 21 April 2013 - 23:14
With regards to the alonso perez overtake, i cant say for sure without seeing another angle, but i think perez must have had his nose infront at some point through the corner, therefore making him the leading driver- which is why alonso allowed him the room on the exit
For that one, it seems to me Alonso was already outside the track when going into the corner as he was giving his everything trying to defend against SP, who was apparently also coming in too hot with DRS and needed all the track he could get. I'm sure we would have heard a lot more from Alonso if he felt he had been deliberately pushed...
#36
Posted 21 April 2013 - 23:19
#37
Posted 21 April 2013 - 23:25
How come they penalized Vettel for it in Monza then, wasn't that also out of a corner?
Yep that does seem a bit inconsistent.
I personally don't think you should be allowed to push a car off the track if it's alongside you because you're basically just driving into another car.
#38
Posted 21 April 2013 - 23:25
Im glad to see that there is not a wave of outrage directed at Perez aggressive driving today because last year at Bahrain everyone and their dog was butt hurt by Rosbergs aggression.
Not comparable really. Late defensive moves down a straight are dangerous and dirty. Forcing a guy on the outside and behind wide exiting a corner still accepted.
Rosberg moves probably deserved the heat they took.
#39
Posted 21 April 2013 - 23:36
For that one, it seems to me Alonso was already outside the track when going into the corner as he was giving his everything trying to defend against SP, who was apparently also coming in too hot with DRS and needed all the track he could get. I'm sure we would have heard a lot more from Alonso if he felt he had been deliberately pushed...
I'm not so sure. If Checo had damaged the car, yes I think we would have heard more. Instead Fernando declined to comment on Perez, which was the right thing to do.
I wasn't necessarily happy with the move by Perez, but I'm not mad either. It was tough racing, I can live with that.
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#40
Posted 21 April 2013 - 23:39
Not comparable really. Late defensive moves down a straight are dangerous and dirty. Forcing a guy on the outside and behind wide exiting a corner still accepted.
Rosberg moves probably deserved the heat they took.
#41
Posted 21 April 2013 - 23:48
JB just should have let it go. He was too slow and would have lost the position anyway. It was silly pride on his part.
Didn't mind the guy (SP) up to now, he's got a new supporter here today.
Edited by saudoso, 21 April 2013 - 23:48.
#42
Posted 21 April 2013 - 23:50
I'm not so sure. If Checo had damaged the car, yes I think we would have heard more. Instead Fernando declined to comment on Perez, which was the right thing to do.
I wasn't necessarily happy with the move by Perez, but I'm not mad either. It was tough racing, I can live with that.
So, basically, we agree: Alonso did not feel there was enough grounds to complain (and, knowing him, if he did, he would have tried a penalty on Perez via radio to re-gain the position and points). IMO that was because he himself came in too fast and run out of track.
#43
Posted 22 April 2013 - 00:00
#44
Posted 22 April 2013 - 00:03
Surprised button didnt get a drive through for not leaving space :S
#45
Posted 22 April 2013 - 00:07
So, basically, we agree: Alonso did not feel there was enough grounds to complain (and, knowing him, if he did, he would have tried a penalty on Perez via radio to re-gain the position and points). IMO that was because he himself came in too fast and run out of track.
My personal opinion is that Fer moves right to defend and takes the corner a bit wide with the intention to give Perez space if Perez can make it work. Which he couldn't without pushing Fer off track. I think Fernando gave in the situation and Perez gave nothing and only took. I think if that's Webber, Hamilton or even Seb, I think they back out seeing that Fernando gave room so as not to run him off track & to be fair. <-- See past WEB/ALO HAM/ALO duels or even VET/ALO or HAM/WEB in Bahrain in regards to trying to be fair/show respect. The best drivers do this, PER is a bit young.
I don't think Fernando complained because there was no way he was going to hold Checo til the end and he realized he gave too much room. Whether using your interpretation of the situation or mine, I don't think there's any reason for Fernando to complain, it's just hard racing and I don't have any big quarrels with that unless said incident caused damage to either car.
Edit: But yes we basically agree even if minor differences in opinion are present.
Edited by CrucialXtreme, 22 April 2013 - 00:08.
#46
Posted 22 April 2013 - 00:16
Your completely correct!I'm getting sick of this sh!tty rule. If you're going to try and overtake round the outside of a corner, or indeed anywhere, it is your own responsibility to make sure you have enough space to complete the move. It is not the job of the defending driver to leave you space.
Either you make sure you have space or back the hell out of it...
#47
Posted 22 April 2013 - 00:51
I'm getting sick of this sh!tty rule. If you're going to try and overtake round the outside of a corner, or indeed anywhere, it is your own responsibility to make sure you have enough space to complete the move. It is not the job of the defending driver to leave you space.
Either you make sure you have space or back the hell out of it...
What the hell? Of course it's the job and responsibility of the defender to leave space if the overtaker managed to place his car alongside.
#48
Posted 22 April 2013 - 01:05
last year or two we have had much better prolonged battles through a section of track than in the previous era of shove people off.
there the billed as the best drivers in the world, so they should act like that, rather than spoiled brats.
#49
Posted 22 April 2013 - 03:56
My personal opinion is that Fer moves right to defend and takes the corner a bit wide with the intention to give Perez space if Perez can make it work. Which he couldn't without pushing Fer off track. I think Fernando gave in the situation and Perez gave nothing and only took. I think if that's Webber, Hamilton or even Seb, I think they back out seeing that Fernando gave room so as not to run him off track & to be fair. <-- See past WEB/ALO HAM/ALO duels or even VET/ALO or HAM/WEB in Bahrain in regards to trying to be fair/show respect. The best drivers do this, PER is a bit young.
I don't think Fernando complained because there was no way he was going to hold Checo til the end and he realized he gave too much room. Whether using your interpretation of the situation or mine, I don't think there's any reason for Fernando to complain, it's just hard racing and I don't have any big quarrels with that unless said incident caused damage to either car.
Edit: But yes we basically agree even if minor differences in opinion are present.
Yeah, I get the same impression. Alonso left enough room and then Perez decided not to sacrifice a bit of speed coming out of the corner and squeezed Alonso out. It would be good to see it also from Perez's cockpit to get a better idea of how it looked from his side, but Perez cannot pretend he didn't know Alonso was there. As Montoya said some years back: "...It's racing" (how I miss that dude!)
#50
Posted 22 April 2013 - 08:40