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Ferrari F138: The race car Part II


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#1 Mandzipop

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 15:30

Previous topic.

http://forums.autosp...w...&start=4000

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#2 Ravenak

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 15:32

And I'll inaugurate it by reminding everyone that I cannot believe how unprofessional the Ferrari deciders can be.

Why oh why use the DRS again after the first pitstop? As someone said, you need to bet on the worst case scenario.

#3 ArkZ

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 15:36

@HPT
That all true , but FL are mostly at end of the race despite worn tires ,the cars are very light, also traffic and clear air play some role as You said. Commentator said Alonso was ordered to save fuel that's why he was not pushing in the last stint. We will never know how fast he would be without all this problems.

#4 crespo

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 15:38

Alonso was putting in some good laps relative to those who had a 1s+ gap ahead of them (no DRS), and around lap 18 I recall seeing that only Vettel was faster than him by only a tenth or so, and this with tires that were older by a couple of laps.

It's tough now, seeing the standings, but this is something we can still fight back from. Remember 2010? Almost two race wins back from the lead of the WDC with half the season past, and came into the last race leading it. He really can rally the troops, and he's in at least a good a car as he was in back then. With some intervention from lady luck, which he's due, he can be right back in it in no time.

What really sucks is that both weekends after his misfortunes have been f*kin 3-weekers.

Brave face peeps, it's gonna be a long one.


Would like to add that it's easiest to judge the DRS stop in hindsight. I remember being OK with it happening live, but am pretty bummed about it now.

#5 apexpredator

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 15:39

And I'll inaugurate it by reminding everyone that I cannot believe how unprofessional the Ferrari deciders can be.

Why oh why use the DRS again after the first pitstop? As someone said, you need to bet on the worst case scenario.


Even if we're kind and give them the benefit of the doubt by saying they didn't know it was a permanent/recurring problem...the question that follows is why didn't they do the necessary trial tests for this situation. Maybe they did. They should know if it fails like that it will keep failing after a reset.

But let's also not dismiss the possibility of the team telling Alonso not to use it and he just heard the little beep in his ear in the activation point and instinctively activated it.

Ah I'm done thinking about this now, awful weekend and what's worse...the Red Bull looks like it's getting better on the tyres.

#6 kosmos

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 15:40

Stefano's face says it all.



#7 Ravenak

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 15:41

You're right, no need to think about it anymore... But I wonder how much more "trial by error" they need. They always seem to find a new way to fail immensely.

#8 Topsu

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 15:49

I guess they could've waited for the first scheduled pitstop and test the DRS again right before it if possible. But risking a totally additional pitstop was stupid.

#9 apexpredator

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 15:51

You're right, no need to think about it anymore... But I wonder how much more "trial by error" they need. They always seem to find a new way to fail immensely.


I would disagree, compared to all other teams Ferrari has fantastic reliability, it's been practically bullet-proof for years now (well, except today)

But I'm just looking at these 4 races and thinking, 3 of them have been unfulfilled, wasted potential. Australia is still a question mark, but Malaysia and Bahrain have been so disappointing.

#10 Ravenak

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 15:53

I would disagree, compared to all other teams Ferrari has fantastic reliability, it's been practically bullet-proof for years now (well, except today)

But I'm just looking at these 4 races and thinking, 3 of them have been unfulfilled, wasted potential. Australia is still a question mark, but Malaysia and Bahrain have been so disappointing.


I'm talking about trial by error in relation to strategy errors, such as Malaysia or today, not reliability.

I guess they could've waited for the first scheduled pitstop and test the DRS again right before it if possible. But risking a totally additional pitstop was stupid.


100% agreed.

Edited by Ravenak, 21 April 2013 - 15:53.


#11 apexpredator

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 15:56

I'm talking about trial by error in relation to strategy errors, such as Malaysia or today, not reliability.


Oh I see what you mean. Well like Alonso said we just need to wait for others to run into problems and take advantage.



#12 PoleMan

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 16:00

WAAYY TOO MUCH Monday (Sunday??) morning quarterbacking going on. Some folks with "Instant Analysis" to assess the wing flap problem from their living rooms, while the professionals who work for Ferrari F1 and have all the telemetry are presumed to be daft and dumb!

For all you smart folks, I'm sure you perform with that same "genius skill-level" in your own professions --already knowing the outcome of a problem while in the midst of trying to assess it. :rotfl: We should all be grateful that you pop in here on F1 weekends to share your perceptive brilliance with the rest of us. :lol:

Sarcasm mode deactivated. Look, if you're a Ferrari, Alonso or Massa fan, this weekend SUCKED. TOTALLY FREAK INCIDENTS!

Ferrari will be spending the next 3 weeks investigating how these issues happened. DRS wing seems like a parts failure. Was it isolated, and other remaining parts are good, or do they need to replace it? For the tyres, it may have been debris, but Pirelli will have to help Ferrari determine that. We can't get the points back, but rest assured that others will have some troubles, too.

I always look to find the positives after each race. Tough to do this weekend, but I do think that Fernando driving his way back into the points, with such a huge handicap (TWO DRS ZONES!), really shows his class and how special he is. Glad this is happening now, and not when there are fewer points available. The F138 is a Great Car! Shame so many points slipped through our fingers, but lessons will be learned and the determination and will to win remain strong! I don't work for them, but I have no doubt that the Scuderia plan to fight back and do everything to win BOTH CHAMPIONSHIPS!  ;)

#13 Arry2k

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 16:04

Oh I see what you mean. Well like Alonso said we just need to wait for others to run into problems and take advantage.

That's the wrong kind of mindset, in my opinion. Anyway, Bahrain is done and dusted. Let's forget that one.

So three weeks to Spain and the first European race of the season. Is this track likely to suit the F138? Is it a front or rear limited track? Will we have a significant update package to counter the upgrades of other teams?


#14 Ravenak

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 16:04

I'm still waiting for a valid excuse for trying to use the DRS again.

The "amateur in a sofa" argument is not valid, sorry mate.

And yes, F1 engineers are smart, but human, they make mistakes. Just as much as F1 commentators who should be a 100th times better than us, but aren't.

#15 discover23

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 16:08

Fernando is just too unlucky..
Vettel winning the title in Brazil last year after that crash he had on the first lap and still continue unscratched gave me a hint that perhaps this decade is Vettel's and RedBull domination.. Very sad for Ferrari and Alonso's fans.

#16 Watkins74

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 16:09

I guess they could've waited for the first scheduled pitstop and test the DRS again right before it if possible. But risking a totally additional pitstop was stupid.

You guess? So you don't now it is even possible to do that.

#17 Ravenak

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 16:10

You guess? So you don't now it is even possible to do that.


Let me rephrase it for you: They could've waited for the first scheduled pitstop and test the DRS again right before it if possible. But risking a totally additional pitstop was stupid.

#18 reggie

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 16:11

Fernando is just too unlucky..
Vettel winning the title in Brazil last year after that crash he had on the first lap and still continue unscratched gave me a hint that perhaps this decade is Vettel's and RedBull domination.. Very sad for Ferrari and Alonso's fans.


Every thing is easier when you consistently have the fastest car. newey is just too strong. He dominated the 90s and will again this decade.

#19 kosmos

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 16:11

I'm still waiting for a valid excuse for trying to use the DRS again.

The "amateur in a sofa" argument is not valid, sorry mate.

And yes, F1 engineers are smart, but human, they make mistakes. Just as much as F1 commentators who should be a 100th times better than us, but aren't.



What valid excuse do you want?, they thought it was ok, they used it again and it failed, end of the story, if you expect a technical explanation, they are not going to give it to the public. I think it's funny that you are not complaining about the front wing, that was easy and fast to fix, there was not gamble there, just a couple of seconds lost.

Edited by kosmos, 21 April 2013 - 16:16.


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#20 Topsu

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 16:13

You guess? So you don't now it is even possible to do that.

No, I know that would have been possible. I said 'I guess' because I'm so bad at English that I start most of my sentences with 'I guess'.

#21 Nonesuch

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 16:18

Let me rephrase it for you: They could've waited for the first scheduled pitstop and test the DRS again right before it if possible. But risking a totally additional pitstop was stupid.

That actually sounds like a pretty solid idea, unless I'm missing something obvious. They could have slammed the DRS down in stop #1, and waited until the lap before the next scheduled stop to use it again. If it had failed they could have immediately fixed it without losing too much time. That way they might have been unable to use DRS for 10 laps or so, but so be it - I can't imagine that being worse than an additional stop so early in the race.

#22 apexpredator

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 16:20

That's the wrong kind of mindset, in my opinion. Anyway, Bahrain is done and dusted. Let's forget that one.

So three weeks to Spain and the first European race of the season. Is this track likely to suit the F138? Is it a front or rear limited track? Will we have a significant update package to counter the upgrades of other teams?


Yeah you're right. I thought the same thing when Alonso retired in Malaysia and said it's a matter of averages, everybody has 2-3 retirements per season.

Last year Kimi didn't have a single retirement. But to be frank I was just trying to make myself feel better, awful weekend this has turned out to be.

Edited by apexpredator, 21 April 2013 - 16:20.


#23 Toffeli

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 16:21

Fernando is just too unlucky..
Vettel winning the title in Brazil last year after that crash he had on the first lap and still continue unscratched gave me a hint that perhaps this decade is Vettel's and RedBull domination.. Very sad for Ferrari and Alonso's fans.


Hahhah, Fernando is the epitome of a lucky driver.

Edited by Toffeli, 21 April 2013 - 16:38.


#24 Ravenak

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 16:21

What valid excuse do you want?, they thought it was ok, they used it again and it failed, end of the story, if you expect a technical explanation, they are not going to give it to the public. I think it's funny that you are not complaining about the front wing, that was easy and fast to fix, there was not gamble there, just a couple of seconds lost.


So they made a dumb mistake that many here would not have done (yes, FOR REALSIES), you acknowledge it, and that's what I'm fuming about.

#25 mkoscevic

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 16:22

Fernando is just too unlucky..


:eek: :lol:

#26 Lelouch

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 16:22

What valid excuse do you want?, they thought it was ok, they used it again and it failed, end of the story, if you expect a technical explanation, they are not going to give it to the public. I think it's funny that you are not complaining about the front wing, that was easy and fast to fix, there was not gamble there, just a couple of seconds lost.

Sorry, but was it hard for Ferrari to predict the outcome of using DRS again? I agree with your point about the FW ofc but still even today the risk was not worth it and I think Ravenak's point about using it before a pitstop to see if it's working is valid. And ofc it could have stuck like Schumacher's in Canada last year and lead to a second retirement for Alonso.

For me it's worth mentioning these 2 Ferrari gambles because they might as well cost Alonso the championship and I'm pretty sure most of you guys share the same point of view.

#27 discover23

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 16:25

Hahhah, Fernando is the epitome of lucky driver.

Oh pls.. Winning a race because the driver in front of you retires is not luck. You still have to be there running second .. This is no different than gaining any other position when drivers in front retire everyone moves up one place.

#28 Claudiu

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 16:28

Maybe our perfect year(last year) is backfiring on us now ... the irony of the situation is that for the first time in 5-6 years Ferrari have a genuine quick car, that can challenge for victories(by pace alone and not luck) and we have these sort of problems ...

Somehow it reminds me of McLaren, each time they have the fastest car they find a way to blew their chances on the championship ... the only constant is RedBull and Vettel winning :D ... makes me sad to be alive :D

#29 BernieEc

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 16:30

Maybe our perfect year(last year) is backfiring on us now ... the irony of the situation is that for the first time in 5-6 years Ferrari have a genuine quick car, that can challenge for victories(by pace alone and not luck) and we have these sort of problems ...

Somehow it reminds me of McLaren, each time they have the fastest car they find a way to blew their chances on the championship ... the only constant is RedBull and Vettel winning :D ... makes me sad to be alive :D


Dude...nothing can be that bad. Your taking it to personal

#30 Iridescent

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 16:39

Terribly unlucky today and everyone is so gutted because even with the issues we encountered underlying pace was brilliant, we lost a potentially great result. We have to analyse the situationvery carefully in the following days. Not much I can say but with Fernando there is an idea of what happened, looks like a sequence of things resulted in the DRS failure; with Felipe - completely clueless at the moment as preliminary analysis doesn't suggest anything related to mechanical damage (from debris, contact or wrong component mounting) or setup could end up in this manner. Lots of work in the time until Spain, we are up there where we want to be so keep the faith.

As to why Fernando tried to work the DRS again which ultimately lead to yet another pitstop -we obviously didn't expect it to get stuck again but even so running without it is a massive disadvantage with the two zones on this circuit and hence we didn't stand the greatest chance of overtaking or fighting off the top guys without it anyway.

Edited by Iridescent, 21 April 2013 - 16:43.


#31 TIFOlonSO

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 16:41

The right decition was to wait before the next pitstop.to test the DRS again.
But they need to take decitions without much thinking and there s always some risk envolved.

#32 Forma1

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 16:42

I am very sad. We were not fast enough today, maybe we could have got P2, but nothing more. We couldn't really beat Perez in the final stint, we came back onto the track 2 second adrift and Fernando finished 0,3 behind him. RB were out of reach today. Unfortunately I predicted this at the start of the week that Lotus and Red Bull would be extremely strong.

30 point adrift from Vettel. Quite a big amout considering Seb's consistency so far...
To be honest Ferrari can save the tyres, but not on tracks where traction is that important and therefore the rears are under such a load. You could experience it in Singapure and Hungary in the last two year, in Valencia last year (Vettel was miles miles miles ahead of everyone till his retirement), in Bahrain last year. Hopfully Valencia is no more in the schedule.
Everyone who predicted Ferrari's domination afetr one nice victory doesn't know anything bout F1 and motorsport in general.
I am very sad and will have some nightmares about Vettel walking away with the title, but we need to wake up in a couple of day's time and concentrate on next race.

#33 Ravenak

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 16:49

The right decition was to wait before the next pitstop.to test the DRS again.
But they need to take decitions without much thinking and there s always some risk envolved.


The other day, a friend asked me: "Domenicali, is he a good team boss?"

I answered: "sure he's good, he wouldn't be there otherwise and when the car doesn't work, there's not much he can do about it."

But when I see decisions to be taken like today (no DRS use) or Sepang (come in immediately), that's when I start doubting his abilities.

I wouldn't be surprised if he got a little tap on the hand by LDM tomorrow...

#34 apexpredator

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 16:57

But when I see decisions to be taken like today (no DRS use) or Sepang (come in immediately), that's when I start doubting his abilities.


They've explained their logic for the Malaysia decision though. Simulator showed if he had pitted straight away, and with another expected pitstop for dry tyres only a few laps after, Alonso would be on track for a 9th or 10th position.

So the risk outweighed the loss, if the wing had stayed on just a lap or two more they'd have been in for a very good result.


#35 Ravenak

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 17:05

They've explained their logic for the Malaysia decision though. Simulator showed if he had pitted straight away, and with another expected pitstop for dry tyres only a few laps after, Alonso would be on track for a 9th or 10th position.

So the risk outweighed the loss, if the wing had stayed on just a lap or two more they'd have been in for a very good result.


That's not a risk, that's a kamikaze wishing for a miracle when flying 700kph into the sea.

#36 SCUDmissile

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 17:06

I think some who are so quick to jump down Ferrari's throat have to remember that in Malaysia, that strategy error would never have happened had someone not broken his front wing...

Sh*t happens, let's move on.However, I feel this 3 week break isn't gonna help. Hope for more pieces so they can catch Vettels lead as soon as the European season.

The F10 was slower compared to the RedBull than the F138 (F138 might arguably be faster) and still Alonso overtook Vettel at Korea. It isn't over. Not when it wasn't over last year. It is like some just want to shout as much as they can, they just forget what ferrari has done, and consistently does...

#37 2ms

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 17:14

Fernando is just too unlucky..
Vettel winning the title in Brazil last year after that crash he had on the first lap and still continue unscratched gave me a hint that perhaps this decade is Vettel's and RedBull domination.. Very sad for Ferrari and Alonso's fans.


It's up to Alonso whether he and Ferrari win championships or not. For example, the 2012 WDC would have been theirs last year had Alonso not run into someone in Japan with no necessity (i.e., plenty of room on his right, yet squeezed driver off of track to his left). This year's car is even faster.

Edited by 2ms, 21 April 2013 - 17:16.


#38 steferrari

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 17:14

Next 3 races are Spain, Monaco, Canada.
I think we can do well.
F2012 nearly won Barcelona last year, and F138 is much better... big updates might make the difference though.
In Monaco Fernando is always great, and with this year's Ferrari his chances should be higher.
In Canada i hope Red Bull will suffer with the top speed.

What you think ?

#39 Frank

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 17:17

Whats done cannot be undone...guess better to look out for RB developments.

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#40 discover23

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 17:18

It's up to Alonso whether he and Ferrari win championships or not. For example, the 2012 WDC would have been theirs last year had Alonso not run into someone in Japan with no necessity (i.e., plenty of room on his right, yet squeezed driver off of track to his left). This year's car is even faster.

Totally kimi's fault.

#41 SunnyENTP

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 17:22

Are Ferrari going to have a McLaren 2012 season? Looks like things are heading that way.

#42 V3TT3L

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 17:24

:lol: Ferrari and McLaren should make a reality shown and swap Domenicalli and Whitmarsh, just like that trading wife show.

#43 F.M.

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 17:32

Remember 2010? Almost two race wins back from the lead of the WDC with half the season past, and came into the last race leading it.


It goes the other way as well.... Remember 2012? over 40 pts in the lead and overtaken by Vettel

#44 Astro

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 17:34

Terribly unlucky today and everyone is so gutted because even with the issues we encountered underlying pace was brilliant, we lost a potentially great result. We have to analyse the situationvery carefully in the following days. Not much I can say but with Fernando there is an idea of what happened, looks like a sequence of things resulted in the DRS failure; with Felipe - completely clueless at the moment as preliminary analysis doesn't suggest anything related to mechanical damage (from debris, contact or wrong component mounting) or setup could end up in this manner. Lots of work in the time until Spain, we are up there where we want to be so keep the faith.

As to why Fernando tried to work the DRS again which ultimately lead to yet another pitstop -we obviously didn't expect it to get stuck again but even so running without it is a massive disadvantage with the two zones on this circuit and hence we didn't stand the greatest chance of overtaking or fighting off the top guys without it anyway.


Thanks for sharing. :up:

I'll take the bold part as a good sign for Spain.

#45 Tuxy

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 17:36

F*ck!

RRrrrrrrrrrr... *sigh*

Oh well.

#46 F.M.

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 17:39

Good race from Alonso. Pace was definately there and without the (second) DRS failure a podium would have been likely. However, they/he kind of brought it on themselves/himself by opening the DRS again. It was pretty clear something was broken. Very optimistic to think it would be okay (even if it held a few times, thinking it would be okay for 50 laps was very optimistic).

Also, I think Alonso reaction is pretty sad and telling; calling it "very very unlucky" and hoping for his rivals to suffer some unreliability instead of just saying they have to address it and make sure it won't happen again. He needs to learn the difference between bad luck and taking gambles that backfire.

Two gambles by Ferrari that didn't work. Today's probably cost them quite a few points compared to the one in Malaysia.

Edited by F.M., 21 April 2013 - 17:45.


#47 HPT

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 17:43

Good race from Alonso btw. Without the (second) DRS failure a podium would have been likely. However, they/he kind of brought it on themselves/himself by opening the DRS again. It was pretty clear something was broken. Very optimistic to think it would be okay.

Also, I think Alonso reaction is pretty sad and telling; hoping for his rivals to suffer some unreliability instead of just saying they have to address it and make sure it won't happen again.
Two gambles by Ferrari that didn't work. Today's probably cost them quite a few points compared to the one in Malaysia.


From his quotes that I've read he just said the luck balances out and when his rivals hit bad luck he must be there to take advantage. He's not hoping his rivals would suffer.

#48 discover23

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 17:49

There are seasons where drivers can go without a single DNF .. kimi last year, Alonso had just one in 2005 and Shumi had no DNFs for two+ years... Lewis in 07.. ....etc.
I am hoping this year isn't Vettel's no DNFs season.

Edited by discover23, 21 April 2013 - 17:49.


#49 Skinnyguy

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 17:53

Totally kimi's fault.


Aha, a member of the fabulous Antonio Lobato racing school.

Bad day for the team, but there are reasons for optimism, Ferrari have shown excellent pace everywhere they went. Despite the bad points, it´s still a much stronger picture than last year. If the mistakes and weird events stop, they´re as strong as anyone unlike last year.



#50 discover23

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 17:57

Aha, a member of the fabulous Antonio Lobato racing school.

If you recall last race, Kimi was whinning over the radio because Perez did the exact same thing that Kimi did to Alonso last year at Japan..