Ferrari F138: The race car Part II
#2601
Posted 04 July 2013 - 17:04
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#2602
Posted 04 July 2013 - 17:11
While I don't share his wholly negative view the car does have some fundamental issues like lack of traction and an inability to get the tyres into it's working range in cooler conditions. These are fundamental issues which have plagued Ferrari for some time now...What are the fundamental issues? Specifically? Also care to explain how you know there are not set up issues? Specifically since you're speaking in absolutes here.
Everyone is quick to jump on the Merc & RB have solved degradation issues but this isn't fully true. Do you & others that believe this think that if softs were ran last weekend that the aforementioned teams wouldn't have had issues? Pirelli has intentionally brought harder compound tyres to try and avoid blow-outs. This doesn't automatically mean those teams have solved tyres issues. Improved them a bit, yes. But softer compounds would tell the full story.
To point #3 I agree it's troubling the same old upgrades aren't working line. Although I don't believe that's 100% true either. New upgrades have been introduced and used the same weekend. But I'll await your response to my first set of questions then we can speak on a technical level about the possible issues with the car.
It doesn't help that Pirelli have chosen a conservative approach to compounds as well in the hope of minimising pit stops.
The lack of working updates is another fundamental issue which the team is addressing but you do not win championships with 3-4 race lulls in performance. While some of the updates have been run I'm starting to have some doubts as to whether they were significant improvements over their predecessor because balance seems to have suffered recently. The last few races has been the first time I've heard Alonso complain about balance since he has joined Ferrari.
Edited by Ferrari2183, 04 July 2013 - 17:15.
#2604
Posted 04 July 2013 - 17:38
What are the fundamental issues? Specifically? Also care to explain how you know there are not set up issues? Specifically since you're speaking in absolutes here.
This car has fundamental issues. The same issues every Ferrari had after Pirelli became tyre supplier. Just a quick F10 - F150/F2012/F138 comparision.
The F10 was great in qualifying, not as fast as a Red Bull, but without doubt second best on most tracks, on some even on par with the Red Bulls. Non past 2011 Ferrari was good in Qualifying. The team says "We can't heat up the tyre for a hot lap". FFS, its the 3rd year on Pirelli rubber. Why does Red Bull never struggle so much? They struggled in the first races last year, but turned their car into a rocket ship again. I can't remember any race weekend we challenged for pole position in dry conditions with Pirelli tyres. You won't win any title with a car which always qualifies at P5-9, if your main competitor starts at P1-3. The F10 was atleast best of the rest on mosttracks.
The F10 was great on any circuit type, eventhough the team had a one off weekend at Turkey. The car had great traction, on par with Red Bull at street circuits. It had great straight line speed, very good tyre management and only lost to Red Bull and Mclaren at fast corners with quick direction changes (S1 Suzuka), but even then it was great in the race. The post 2011 cars? Very bad traction, Red Bull slaughters us at street circuits. Tyres which only work when raced under perfect conditions, problems with harder compounds... There is not a single track you could say "This is a Ferrari track!". Barcelona? Good in the fast sections, very bad in S3. Monza? Great straightline speed, bad under brakes and again traction issues.
All most every problem is tyre related, which shows that the F138 is fundamentally flawed. The Red Bull may had its degration issues, but it was never slow.
Edit:
Before I get called out, Im a die hard tifoso, will always support the team, no matter what. It just hurts to see how Alonsos talent gets wasted and we still loose, eventhough the team does a great job with strategies and tyre changes ... because the car is just too slow
Edited by AlainProstX, 04 July 2013 - 17:48.
#2605
Posted 04 July 2013 - 17:44
#2606
Posted 04 July 2013 - 17:57
Canada is a unique track and those updates were most likely bespoke.I wonder why they ditched all the upgrades they raced, and got a second place with in Canada?
@AlainProstX, the F138 is great under braking but fails miserably under traction conditions in comparison to the competition. Most likely has to do with exhaust blowing which they just cannot get a handle on. This is probably due to the nature of the engine.
#2607
Posted 04 July 2013 - 18:02
#2608
Posted 04 July 2013 - 18:41
Canada is a unique track and those updates were most likely bespoke.
@AlainProstX, the F138 is great under braking but fails miserably under traction conditions in comparison to the competition. Most likely has to do with exhaust blowing which they just cannot get a handle on. This is probably due to the nature of the engine.
And i'm assuming the new front wing with the 'R winglets' didn't work?
#2609
Posted 04 July 2013 - 18:50
I think it was specific to Canada. Might make an appearance in Monza again.And i'm assuming the new front wing with the 'R winglets' didn't work?
#2610
Posted 04 July 2013 - 18:54
I think he's referring to the one trialed at SilverstoneI think it was specific to Canada. Might make an appearance in Monza again.
#2611
Posted 04 July 2013 - 19:10
Oops. In that case I would assume so too.I think he's referring to the one trialed at Silverstone
#2612
Posted 04 July 2013 - 19:24
His frustration is understandable but Alonso should just do it. It is not just about new parts... He can do detailed setup work which has its own set of benefits.
Would of thought he knew this.
You can't do set up work though. Jenson button has said the same thing (that it's not beneficial).
#2613
Posted 04 July 2013 - 19:55
@AlainProstX, the F138 is great under braking but fails miserably under traction conditions in comparison to the competition. Most likely has to do with exhaust blowing which they just cannot get a handle on. This is probably due to the nature of the engine.
Well, to my untrained eye the Red Bull and Mercedes both look more stable during braking. Eventhough I have to agree that the lack of traction is worse and more apparent. Especially Massa seems to struggle alot at corner exits.
#2614
Posted 04 July 2013 - 20:55
#2615
Posted 04 July 2013 - 21:00
#2616
Posted 04 July 2013 - 21:12
Take this type of discussion elsewhere please. The thread has already been closed for going way off-topic.I wonder if Alonso will stay for how longer if he keeps on not winning titles.
#2617
Posted 04 July 2013 - 21:32
#2618
Posted 04 July 2013 - 21:35
While I don't share his wholly negative view the car does have some fundamental issues like lack of traction and an inability to get the tyres into it's working range in cooler conditions. These are fundamental issues which have plagued Ferrari for some time now...
It doesn't help that Pirelli have chosen a conservative approach to compounds as well in the hope of minimising pit stops.
The lack of working updates is another fundamental issue which the team is addressing but you do not win championships with 3-4 race lulls in performance. While some of the updates have been run I'm starting to have some doubts as to whether they were significant improvements over their predecessor because balance seems to have suffered recently. The last few races has been the first time I've heard Alonso complain about balance since he has joined Ferrari.
While you're right about lack of traction(low speed) & difficulty getting the tyres up to temp as problems, I don't see them so much as fundamental as its just a characteristic of Ferrari cars for years now. I mean I will agree its technically fundamental I think both of those issues go hand in hand and its down to their philosophy of building cars.
Of course I don't know for fact but the F138 isn't as far off in DF as past years and I don't think they're far off RB. I just don't think the lack of low speed traction is down solely to DF levels especially considering its usually great balance under braking.
Some things that go on the car on weekends are track specific but many seem to think they should stay on the car. The Canada spec FW for instance, low DF FW that won't be used on specific circuits.
Only after Silverstone did we hear anything about upgrades not working, even after some are introduced and used throughout the weekend although it should be noted we can't always see all the updates.
It may very well be true that the updates haven't worked and it may be that the Toyota tunnel is having some issues. MaCa who use the tunnel as well have had issues as well.
Alonso's comments today about last weekends problems are somewhat confusing. We will see where the team is this weekend. There are definitely issues to be addressed with the car but something is a bit fishy/weird with Silverstone performance level of the car.
#2619
Posted 04 July 2013 - 22:01
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#2620
Posted 05 July 2013 - 01:02
#2621
Posted 05 July 2013 - 01:12
Its funny to see a flaw becoming a characteristic of the car.
You mean like the RedBull's top speed?
#2622
Posted 05 July 2013 - 01:13
Fernando said a moment ago that he has no intention to go to the tests because they can't test anything or change anything on the car, he will go if the team wants it but he has no wish to go, he said: "I'm not a pirelli tester".
Can't change anything since when? This is the time Stefano needs to show what he's made of. Argue semantics, find a damn good lawyer and make changes to the car and claim that these were there at FP1 during Canada, etc.
COme on, stop following the rules to the letter when people are bending them left, right and center! Damnit.
#2623
Posted 05 July 2013 - 01:36
While you're right about lack of traction(low speed) & difficulty getting the tyres up to temp as problems, I don't see them so much as fundamental as its just a characteristic of Ferrari cars for years now. I mean I will agree its technically fundamental I think both of those issues go hand in hand and its down to their philosophy of building cars.
So you really think Ferrari deliberately choose to build cars with lack of traction an tyre heating ability? That's some strange 'philosophy' considering its the opposite of what a fast car requires. The real reason for these problems is because their cars fundamentally lack down force, which is why they lack traction and cannot work the tyres hard enough to heat them up properly, and also why they have struggled so much on high df tracks, and why their best tracks have been the lowest df tracks like Canada and Monza. That is why they have not been able to fix these problems for the last 3 years. They don't know how to design a car with more down force.
#2624
Posted 05 July 2013 - 01:53
You mean like the RedBull's top speed?
Its not a flaw. Newey cars were always known for superior top end, atleast most of them anyway.
While ferrari may have top speed advantage, but if its at the cost of low speed traction; its not working. Its hurting the pace at many circuits. Combine THAT with poor temp generation capabilities you have a recipe for disaster in qualifying, green tracks, cold temperatures. How many tracks are going to offer high speed, hot temp? Monza?
#2625
Posted 05 July 2013 - 04:06
So you really think Ferrari deliberately choose to build cars with lack of traction an tyre heating ability? That's some strange 'philosophy' considering its the opposite of what a fast car requires. The real reason for these problems is because their cars fundamentally lack down force, which is why they lack traction and cannot work the tyres hard enough to heat them up properly, and also why they have struggled so much on high df tracks, and why their best tracks have been the lowest df tracks like Canada and Monza. That is why they have not been able to fix these problems for the last 3 years. They don't know how to design a car with more down force.
No I don't think it's necessarily deliberate, I think it's been more so inherited/trend from various things. In much the same way Ferrari has been changing/updating their methodologies, aerodynamics, etc. the same is being done in other parts of the factory.
And no it's not just about lacking downforce. There is more to getting the tyres to temp than just raw DF. China isn't a low DF track, neither is Barcelona. Again much more factors into Ferrari's issues than a lack of downforce.
#2626
Posted 05 July 2013 - 04:47
No I don't think it's necessarily deliberate, I think it's been more so inherited/trend from various things. In much the same way Ferrari has been changing/updating their methodologies, aerodynamics, etc. the same is being done in other parts of the factory.
And no it's not just about lacking downforce. There is more to getting the tyres to temp than just raw DF. China isn't a low DF track, neither is Barcelona. Again much more factors into Ferrari's issues than a lack of downforce.
China and Spain was down to quicker cars limited by melting their tyres, rather than the Ferrari really being quicker. It's generally accepted the Redbull has the most down force, since 2010, and have they ever had trouble heating tyres?
#2627
Posted 05 July 2013 - 05:01
This is reflected in the performance of the car. In Silverstone we did not have sufficient set up time since FP1 got washed out and FP2 wasn't 100% either. The reduced mechanical grip is related to the inability to heat the tyres sufficiently/quickly and also manifests itself in reduced traction especially from slow corners.
The front pull-rod is not compatible with the realities of the current F1 calendar - i.e. good likelihood of losing set up time due to weather, significant percentage of slow corners Additionally street circuits like Monaco etc that are very bumpy, mean further reduction in traction due to the stiffer front pull-rod.
The car performs better on higher fuel loads due to the damping factor of the weight and this also improves traction, front grip and helps heat the tyres - This is one of the reasons "race pace" appears better than qualy because the performance relative to other cars is better with heavy fuel
This is all relative to the best teams with a front push-rod who can heat their tyres quickly and are able to set-up quickly and have great traction.
Ferrari needs to admit failure and move back to a front push-rod at least for next year. The 2014 low nose regulations will make it even tougher to make a front pull-rod effective so I hope they don't stay stubborn
Adrian Newey's quote last year on front pull-rod : "The only reason to do it like this (pull rod front suspension) is to do it differently."
Edited by camberley, 05 July 2013 - 05:32.
#2628
Posted 05 July 2013 - 06:06
Now you're just talking out your backside. In both China and Spain the Ferrari's qualified well and in the latter were less than 2 tenths off the Red Bull of Vettel.China and Spain was down to quicker cars limited by melting their tyres, rather than the Ferrari really being quicker. It's generally accepted the Redbull has the most down force, since 2010, and have they ever had trouble heating tyres?
Warming tyres is not just about downforce... Look at McLaren last year for example, mega downforce but there were tracks where they were unable to generate tyre temps and the F2008 suffered from the same thing. Are you seriously saying the F2008 lacked downforce?
Setup, ambient and track temps all play a role.
#2629
Posted 05 July 2013 - 08:06
Anyway, Alonso running Barcelona spec car.
#2630
Posted 05 July 2013 - 08:08
Ok, bad start on Friday, good finish on Sunday.
#2631
Posted 05 July 2013 - 08:10
#2632
Posted 05 July 2013 - 08:12
#2633
Posted 05 July 2013 - 08:12
#2634
Posted 05 July 2013 - 08:18
Yeah, rather now than in a race. Still not ideal though...Alonso's reliability so good he couldn't have hand picked a better time to have his 1 hiccup!
#2635
Posted 05 July 2013 - 08:25
#2636
Posted 05 July 2013 - 08:29
#2637
Posted 05 July 2013 - 08:42
#2638
Posted 05 July 2013 - 08:42
Now you're just talking out your backside. In both China and Spain the Ferrari's qualified well and in the latter were less than 2 tenths off the Red Bull of Vettel.
Warming tyres is not just about downforce... Look at McLaren last year for example, mega downforce but there were tracks where they were unable to generate tyre temps and the F2008 suffered from the same thing. Are you seriously saying the F2008 lacked downforce?
Setup, ambient and track temps all play a role.
Yes they all play a role but the ultimate determining factor is down force. If you lack down force then your car is more susceptible to ambient and track temp variations, to get the tyres working, unlike Redbull who just turn up anywhere and can switch them. The 2008 Ferrari scored 8 poles it had no tyre problems.
#2639
Posted 05 July 2013 - 08:54
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#2640
Posted 05 July 2013 - 08:58
2011 they used Push Rod for front and rear, yet the car had similar characteristics as this years with pull rod at front and rear.
#2641
Posted 05 July 2013 - 09:07
#2642
Posted 05 July 2013 - 09:11
#2643
Posted 05 July 2013 - 09:15
Mercedes looks in another planet right now.
#2644
Posted 05 July 2013 - 09:15
What has happened so far in free practice with alonso's etc.??
Autosport.com is reporting that it could be the ECU. So may not be Ferrari's fault as McLaren supply them. Webber experienced an ECU fault during the race in the beginning of the year as well.
#2645
Posted 05 July 2013 - 09:18
EDIT: Sorry, didn't see the above post.
Edited by vista, 05 July 2013 - 09:19.
#2646
Posted 05 July 2013 - 09:20
have there been a case of a world champion that has not started even in the first row in any GP of the season?
#2647
Posted 05 July 2013 - 09:25
Seriously dude, just stop... The F2008 had plenty tyre warmup issues even with all that downforce.Yes they all play a role but the ultimate determining factor is down force. If you lack down force then your car is more susceptible to ambient and track temp variations, to get the tyres working, unlike Redbull who just turn up anywhere and can switch them. The 2008 Ferrari scored 8 poles it had no tyre problems.
Tyre warmup is mostly affected by how load is transferred to and through the tyres not merely how much load a car generates. Yours is a very way simple way of looking at things.
#2648
Posted 05 July 2013 - 09:28
Lauda in 1984. His best start was third. Denny Hulme in 1967 is the only other driver to win the championship without starting from pole, but he had a couple of front row starts.Just off-topic...
have there been a case of a world champion that has not started even in the first row in any GP of the season?
#2649
Posted 05 July 2013 - 09:30
#2650
Posted 05 July 2013 - 09:33
Going to be another dreadful weekend.
Edited by ConsiderAndGo, 05 July 2013 - 09:33.