50 replies to this topic

[genespleen]

Hi all,

I've gotten a bored and frustrated at the dominance of the aero end of the overall package when it comes to a car's effectiveness. And it got me wondering: what have been the most important non-aero innovations since the early 1990s? It'd be interesting to see what stands out.

[pingu666]

kers, seemless gearboxes?

[ElTope]

Materials

[ElTope]

Design and simulation software.

Fast prototyping

[Ravenak]

Design/conception is one thing (CFD), but if we limit ourselves to on-car devices and solutions, over 20 years, I'd go for:

- electronics, which were almost non-existent prior to 1993, and all the underlying, that we know find on our road cars (no need to make a list, you know that stuff)
- security of the driver: no F1 driver killed in almost 2 decades, there's your answer. ElTope said it: thanks to materials, mostly.

Aerodynamics are certainly no invention of the present, it's been going since the 1950s and even before.

All the other little inventions (blown diffusers, use of coanda effect, passive DRS, active suspension, double tanks and whatnot) are only minor.

Edited by Ravenak, 27 April 2013 - 01:25.

[Wingcommander]

Design/conception is one thing (CFD), but if we limit ourselves to on-car devices and solutions, over 20 years, I'd go for:

- electronics, which were almost non-existent prior to 1993, and all the underlying, that we know find on our road cars (no need to make a list, you know that stuff)

Almost non-existent?

[Timstr11]

I would also like a bigger shift towards mechanical away from aero. Much more exciting than flexible front wings, intricate endplates, double diffusers etc.

There were several memorable developments which were banned unfortunately.

One of the most visible ones was Benneton's and later BAR's front torque transfer devices which helped to transfer torque between the front wheels:
http://www.formula1....004/725/53.html

[droiddamudi]

After understanding some of the concept involve in mechanical aspect of some of the "devices" in F1 in past decade, I'm impress with renualt/lotus/enstone team.

Considering budget limitation, they have excellent design team all around. Some of recent ideas like Tune mass dampers(TMD), brake/height device which got banned during 2012 pre season testing, then famous DRD "the device" and finally FRIC. Not to mention amazing traction control/launch control during 02-06 michelin era.

Granted many of the ideas are known, but its about implementation and how to get best out the device. For example, Mass dampers are known thing but Renault was only team to successfully implement on their car. Same with FRIC if rumors are true. Hopefully enstone team can tune DRD in time like how they manage with TMD.

Other team with interesting idea i can kind of, mclaren brake steer(whatever its called), Flexi wing/ flexi floor, EBD, F-duct, J- dampers, and i still think redbull had some interesting suspension system during 2011 season with all the noise about ride height and subsequent FIA clarification.

[Risil]

Good man.

When did pneumatic valves come into F1 engines?

[Jejking]

The reinvention of CVT (from the Dutch DAF company), building the fully variable gearbox into a F1 car (Williams-Renault, 1993) and made it several seconds a lap faster.

[byrkus]

Renault V10 '89, IIRC.

[Kalmake]

There were telemetry black boxes in the late 70's. Active electronic* applications appeared more than 20 years ago too. Lotus introduced active suspension in 1987-ish.

Pneumatic valves came some time in the 80's to Renault turbos.

Ban of active suspension lead to use of third springs in 1994. J-damper (2005) was a big thing which AFAIK does the same job as tuned mass damper. Linking front and rear and going all hydraulic seems to be the next step in suspensions. Of course, the biggest motivation for all these was improving ground effect aero.

[edit] *computer

When was live car to pits telemetry introduced?

Edited by Kalmake, 27 April 2013 - 11:38.

[Clatter]

Renault V10 '89, IIRC.

Think they had them on the V6 Turbo first.

[byrkus]

What about solenoid-driven valves, concepted by Renault about a decade ago? Were they ever been used in a race, or were they for lab use only?

[Victor_RO]

Think they had them on the V6 Turbo first.

Weren't those desmodromic valves, not pneumatic ones?

[Boing 2]

Carbon fibre gearboxes and carbon fibre suspension components, moveable inlet trumpets on engines (Honda 91/92?) CVT, seamless shift gearboxes, active ride/four wheel steering/TC/anti lock brakes. Tyrrell tried a 3 spoke alloy wheel but it failed, they also tried running front wheel on the rear at a Monza test but Goodyear wouldn't let them race them.

Edited by Boing 2, 27 April 2013 - 11:38.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Are we talking about temporary things (active suspension) or permanent developments (electronics in general)?

[Clatter]

Weren't those desmodromic valves, not pneumatic ones?

No, pneumatic. At least that's what every reference I can find says.

[muramasa]

pit signal system

[MikeTekRacing]

Hi all,

I've gotten a bored and frustrated at the dominance of the aero end of the overall package when it comes to a car's effectiveness. And it got me wondering: what have been the most important non-aero innovations since the early 1990s? It'd be interesting to see what stands out.

drivers hard preparation, trainings and work ethics

[Sakae]

Hi all,

I've gotten a bored and frustrated at the dominance of the aero end of the overall package when it comes to a car's effectiveness. And it got me wondering: what have been the most important non-aero innovations since the early 1990s? It'd be interesting to see what stands out.

I must say it would be Schumacher and Vettel.

[pingu666]

didn't benitton have some torque transfer thing too?

[One]

TV

[Ali_G]

What about solenoid-driven valves, concepted by Renault about a decade ago? Were they ever been used in a race, or were they for lab use only?

The time Benetton were running a very wide V (60 degrees) around 2002 or 2003, there was rumours they were thinking of going with solenoid activation. Pointless anymore due to the revs after dropping back.

[Ali_G]

The reinvention of CVT (from the Dutch DAF company), building the fully variable gearbox into a F1 car (Williams-Renault, 1993) and made it several seconds a lap faster.

Didn't realise the lap times from that test session were ever published. I'd be amazed if a CVT made that Williams so much faster than the standard automatic Williams were running in 1993. The only reason that CVT's were banned was due to the noise of the cars. Revs would have been held at peak power for the entire lap.

Edited by Ali_G, 28 April 2013 - 12:33.

[FerrariFanInTexas]

Carbon fiber brake rotors and pads.

[Baddoer]

Pirelli tyres

[Kalmake]

Carbon fiber brake rotors and pads.

1979-ish

[MikeV1987]

Engines, the V8s are so refined now a days and are practically bulletproof. Kers too, we are now seeing KERS-like systems being put into road cars. Lets not forget gearboxes either.

[Disgrace]

Safety and by a country mile.

[One]

all what Max did (for on track)

[DampMongoose]

Not an innovation exactly, but the wheel gun/wheelnut technology and pit crew ability that allows teams to change tyres in a fraction of the time it took back when the 'guys in shorts and t-shirts' did it in the early 90's! The calamity that was a Ferrari pitstop was terribly inept when compared to the teams today!

The improvements in Traction Control up to when they were removed was impressive, Semi-Auto gearboxes obviously and driver safety/protection with both car design and particularly HANS...

[Kalmake]

First semi-auto with paddles was in 1989.

[FerrariFanInTexas]

1979-ish

I couldn't find a firm date for this. I think the pads maybe came before the rotors? I know there have been huge strides made in the last 20 years with heat management of the rotors, especially inside the rotor itself.

[Kalmake]

I couldn't find a firm date for this. I think the pads maybe came before the rotors? I know there have been huge strides made in the last 20 years with heat management of the rotors, especially inside the rotor itself.

BT46 in 1976 had carbon pads and steel discs. BT49 used carbon-carbon in 1981.

[midgrid]

The suspension inerter (also known as the "J-damper"), first used by McLaren in 2005 and soon adopted by the rest of the grid. Renault's mass damper as well if it hadn't been banned so quickly (and technically classified as an aerodynamic device in being banned).

[FastnLoud]

Safety and by a country mile.

[DampMongoose]

First semi-auto with paddles was in 1989.

I know but I meant the development to the current level, as in seamless shifts, auto rev limited downshifts etc...

[Rubens Hakkamacher]

Renault pneumatic valves, and the subsequent knock-on effect of ultra high rpms. That is the most unique aspect of F1.

At least, until next year.


BUT, also maybe the way the cars these days utilize tire sidewall deflection as part of the suspension is taken for granted. Next year, lower profile tires - I don't know, I foresee problems because of that....

[Kalmake]

People keep posting stuff that appeared before 90s. Maybe that says something about the last two decades.

[DampMongoose]

People keep posting stuff that appeared before 90s. Maybe that says something about the last two decades.

It's a surprise to me that nobody has been so short of relevent material for this thread that the most import non-aero stuff from the last 20 years isn't something like the nutritional pasta that the Mclaren team produce in their hospitality tent.

[S3baman]

Safety can't be overlooked. We haven't lost a life on track since 1994 even though there were a few serious accidents since then.

In terms of mechanical advancements, I would put McLaren's illegal double braking system and The J-Damper/Tuned Mass Dmaper suspension system as the most innovative designs.

[One]

Seriously I would also say that Material and technology related to Carbon Fiber.

[DampMongoose]

Seriously I would also say that Material and technology related to Carbon Fiber.

The same carbon fibre that was first used on the Embassy Hill in 1975 (horrific consequences)? Or the first all carbon tub in 1984... hardly an innovation from the last 20 years? I suppose it has been developed but surely not that much?

[Rubens Hakkamacher]

TIL I learned the entire F1 field ran pneumatic valves to 19,000+ rpms before 1990...

[Sakae]

After understanding some of the concept involve in mechanical aspect of some of the "devices" in F1 in past decade, I'm impress with renualt/lotus/enstone team.

Considering budget limitation, they have excellent design team all around. Some of recent ideas like Tune mass dampers(TMD), brake/height device which got banned during 2012 pre season testing, then famous DRD "the device" and finally FRIC. Not to mention amazing traction control/launch control during 02-06 michelin era.

Granted many of the ideas are known, but its about implementation and how to get best out the device. For example, Mass dampers are known thing but Renault was only team to successfully implement on their car. Same with FRIC if rumors are true. Hopefully enstone team can tune DRD in time like how they manage with TMD.

Other team with interesting idea i can kind of, mclaren brake steer(whatever its called), Flexi wing/ flexi floor, EBD, F-duct, J- dampers, and i still think redbull had some interesting suspension system during 2011 season with all the noise about ride height and subsequent FIA clarification.

Just a side and quick note - E. Boullier is a graduate of the French Institut Polytechnique des Sciences Appliquées · engineering school where he studied aeronautical and spacecraft engineering. Nothing to sneeze at, mind you. From all what we know about him is, that he is actually a genius in his job (who really doesn't get any credit in media), but I would not be surprise to learn that he is actually the true blue brain behind Renault's (now Lotus) rise to current status.

Edited by Sakae, 01 May 2013 - 16:03.

[Risil]

The same carbon fibre that was first used on the Embassy Hill in 1975 (horrific consequences)? Or the first all carbon tub in 1984... hardly an innovation from the last 20 years? I suppose it has been developed but surely not that much?

They can do some incredible things nowadays with the weave to make bodywork flex the right way at high speeds. Which is a huge aero benefit, which rather proves the OP's (excellent) point.

Edited by Risil, 01 May 2013 - 19:45.

[DampMongoose]

They can do some incredible things nowadays with the weave to make bodywork flex the right way at high speeds. Which is a huge aero benefit, which rather proves the OP's (excellent) point.

Here was me thinking this thread was for non-aero innovations? I agree that they can do far greater things with carbon fibre nowadays, but do they use it for anything particularly other than for aero benefit? If not it's not really a non-aero innovation...

[One]

The same carbon fibre that was first used on the Embassy Hill in 1975 (horrific consequences)? Or the first all carbon tub in 1984... hardly an innovation from the last 20 years? I suppose it has been developed but surely not that much?

Good question.

In terms of engineering this material a lot came to more under formulation as the time rolled on. For many bahavior of Carbon fiber laminate composiet was not was hermetic as that of metal, I thought. Now it is under control.

[noikeee]

Safety can't be overlooked. We haven't lost a life on track since 1994 even though there were a few serious accidents since then.

I don't wish to be the pedant that goes off on a tangent that doesn't contribute anything to the argument, but those poor marshalls in Melbourne and Monza deserve to be remembered.