179 replies to this topic

[gillesthegenius]

Hey guys, was just making my personal list of the best overtaking moves that Seb has pulled off in his career and to my surprise, my top ten exclusively featured moves around the outside...

1) Alonso - T3 - Monza 11
2) Rosberg - T6 - Melbourne 12
3) Button - T11 - Yasmarina 12
4) Webber - T4 - Sepang 13
5) Raikkonen - T6 - Shanghai 12
6) Alonso - T5 - Sakhir 13
6) Rosberg - T5 - Sakhir 13
8) Rosberg - T17 - Spa 11
9) Barrichello - T6 - Interlagos 09
10) Button -T2 - Melbourne 11

So it got me thinking and I was wondering why he prefers to pull his moves off in such a fashion? Is it as a result if his driving style or has the characteristics of the cars he has driven have anything to do it?

Discuss...

And let's just keep it intellectual guys.

Edited by gillesthegenius, 27 April 2013 - 03:10.

[ardbeg]

Kimi seem to prefer the outside as well. Maybe they feel they have more options to avoid contact if the driver they are passing misbehave? Normally, passing on the outside is more dangerous but maybe they have other experiences.

[discover23]

No DRS, no Kers

[gillesthegenius]

No DRS, no Kers

Great move. (MA)

When I used to be an Alonso fanatic I used to just keeping watching that move over and over again, without ever getting bored about it.

But my question is why Seb shows a high preference for such moves, while others like Alonso himself and Hamilton don't show such a preference. The Kimi example is interesting as I personally feel he is also a slow-in-fast-out driver like Seb is, while the likes of Lewis and Fernando are the fast-in-slow-out type. Does Anyone think that their preference to priorities their corner exit has any effect in contributing to such a tendancy? Or does it have anything to do with the lower power that the Renault engines provide, that rules out the option of making up ground in the straights and out breaking the opponent into a corner in most cases for Seb and Kimi?

[Kingshark]

I agree that Hamilton loves the inside, he almost never goes for the outside. His banzai overtaking moves on Raikkonen at Monza 2007, on Massa at Hockenheim 2008, on Button at China 2011, and on Rosberg at Bahrain 2012 show this.

Different styles of driving, I guess.

[gillesthegenius]

Kimi seem to prefer the outside as well. Maybe they feel they have more options to avoid contact if the driver they are passing misbehave? Normally, passing on the outside is more dangerous but maybe they have other experiences.

And it is quite obviously more difficult too. And to keep preferring that route, as if thats the more natural option when it clearly is not with most of the other great drivers, makes me wonder whether there is a technical basis to it.

[gillesthegenius]

I agree that Hamilton loves the inside, he almost never goes for the outside. His banzai overtaking moves on Raikkonen at Monza 2007, on Massa at Hockenheim 2008, on Button at China 2011, and on Rosberg at Bahrain 2012 show this.

Different styles of driving, I guess.

That's my hunch too. But it would be nice to go into the details that create such phenomena. In Hamilton's case, the relationship between how good he is at braking as late as possible and his tendency to almost always go for the inside, like you point out, cannot just be a coincidence.

[blowndiffuser]

One of Vettel's talents seems to be able to find grip on a racetrack, perhaps better than most other drivers. When I contrast his driving to Webber's, I find that he can find the line and spots on a track with good traction to rocket out of a corner more so than Webber. Perhaps it is that talent which gives him added confidence to overtake from the outside.

[mlsnoopy]

Being able to overtake on the outside is a sign of a superior car.

[NotSoSilentBob]

Turn 4 Sepang '13?

Not really seeing why that was a great move. Webber had (probably) exhausted his KERS defending between T2 & T3, Vettel got a great slipstream tow, and then had the rubbered-in line on near-new soft tyres exiting the corner whilst Mark was on the marbles and on hards.

If you're gonna list 'great overtakes', the pre-requisite would be the overtake actually being great.

[as65p]

And it is quite obviously more difficult too. And to keep preferring that route, as if thats the more natural option when it clearly is not with most of the other great drivers, makes me wonder whether there is a technical basis to it.

I would have thought it's not that difficult to spot. All Red Bulls Vettel has driven have had superior downforce compared to the competition. Usually the team compounds that by setting the cars up to go faster around the corners, at the expense of some topspeed on he straights.

Sounds like a perfect recipe to exploit grip other cars can't on wider (outside) cornering lines, and Vettel is making very good use of it.

[Nobody]

A combination I think
Vettel's style and bravado (in a good way), and the characteristics of the cars he's seen most of his success in.

[gillesthegenius]

I would have thought it's not that difficult to spot. All Red Bulls Vettel has driven have had superior downforce compared to the competition. Usually the team compounds that by setting the cars up to go faster around the corners, at the expense of some topspeed on he straights.

Sounds like a perfect recipe to exploit grip other cars can't on wider (outside) cornering lines, and Vettel is making very good use of it.

Good point. But Webber doesn't seem to display same kind of preference, choosing the inside line more often than not, making it not so obvious at least IMO.

[jimjimjeroo]

Outside of turn 13 around Schumacher

[Kingshark]

Renault engines = good traction, lack power.
Mercedes engines = lack traction, good power.
Ferrari engines = somewhere in the middle

Does that have anything to do with it? Maybe it's more convenient to overtake around the outside, with a car which is good on acceleration but doesn't have much top speed.

[gillesthegenius]

Turn 4 Sepang '13?

Not really seeing why that was a great move. Webber had (probably) exhausted his KERS defending between T2 & T3, Vettel got a great slipstream tow, and then had the rubbered-in line on near-new soft tyres exiting the corner whilst Mark was on the marbles and on hards.

If you're gonna list 'great overtakes', the pre-requisite would be the overtake actually being great.

1) It was my personal list.

2) I shared it with you guys only because I found all my picks to feature moves 'around the outside', and I thought that discussing about it would be interesting.

3) Though you have every right to dispute my opinion, making Mark exhaust his KERS and using the slip stream he gained to force Mark onto the marbles were impressive parts of his race craft that enabled that move, beside his dogged pursuit of the unrelenting Mark IMO. But you have every right to see it differently. And you similarly can dispute the presence of any other move in that list. But unless you can compile a list containing at least a half a dozen 'on the inside' moves by Seb, I think the question I was trying to raise - which is in fact the focal point of this thread - is very valid IMO.

[mnmracer]

Noticed the same, although his outside-going-inside move on Massa in China was also brilliant. Slightly brake to squeeze to the inside, and then brake late.


I think it's a combination of what blowndiffuser said (being good at finding grip) and Kingshark's assessment of the engine characteristics.

Edited by mnmracer, 27 April 2013 - 08:20.

[JaredS]

Hey guys, was just making my personal list of the best overtaking moves that Seb has pulled off in his career and to my surprise, my top ten exclusively featured moves around the outside...

1) Alonso - T3 - Monza 11
2) Rosberg - T6 - Melbourne 12
3) Button - T11 - Yasmarina 12
4) Webber - T4 - Sepang 13
5) Raikkonen - T6 - Shanghai 12
6) Alonso - T5 - Sakhir 13
6) Rosberg - T5 - Sakhir 13
8) Rosberg - T17 - Spa 11
9) Barrichello - T6 - Interlagos 09
10) Button -T2 - Melbourne 11

So it got me thinking and I was wondering why he prefers to pull his moves off in such a fashion? Is it as a result if his driving style or has the characteristics of the cars he has driven have anything to do it?

Discuss...

And let's just keep it intellectual guys.

Simply that his car has superior grip. Going clean around the outside of another driver isn't all that strategic such as making a pass by compromising another driver's line etc. it simply is a case of "doesn't matter what you try in defence, I have so much downforce and grip that I'm going to drive clean around the outside of you and there's nothing you can do about it."

[JaredS]

No DRS, no Kers

What has that got to do with Seb having a tendency to overtake around the outside? Oh that's right, nothing. Just another Alonso fan beating over sensitive that there is a thread about Seb doing something well.

Seb fan: "why do you think Seb is good at X?"
Alonso fan: "Alonso is better, here's a video"

[gillesthegenius]

Renault engines = good traction, lack power.
Mercedes engines = lack traction, good power.
Ferrari engines = somewhere in the middle

Does that have anything to do with it? Maybe it's more convenient to overtake around the outside, with a car which is good on acceleration but doesn't have much top speed.

Interesting point. But what complicates your argument is Webber's tendency to still stick it up the inside in spite of driving the same engine as Seb does. Also Kimi - at least in my memory - was as comfortable taking the longer route, as he is now, even when he had the Merc engine at his disposal.

[JaredS]

Noticed the same, although his outside-going-inside move on Massa in China was also brilliant. Slightly brake to squeeze to the inside, and then brake late.


I think it's a combination of what blowndiffuser said (being good at finding grip) and Kingshark's assessment of the engine characteristics.

I thought his move on Alonso in Bahrain was brilliant, using Kers at the right time with the right line. Although as Horner said after the race, they clearly discussed it before the race and that apparently it was Horner's idea!

I think Seb is good at overtaking around the outside because he's got the downforce and grip, but to his credit he also is a very good judge of how much grip is available. In contrast Webber seems to have a lot of trouble judging the same. In fact I remember in 2012 Webber used to brake ridiculously early into Turn 1 in so may races that resulted in him losing even more places than he lost already after getting his characteristic bad start + no KERS.

[DanardiF1]

I think it's just confidence in the superior downforce of the car. Of course that's still difficult as to have that confidence and faculty to make the pass still requires concentration and skill.

I didn't particularly rate the pass on Alonso in Bahrain because, well, look at the traction the Red Bull got out of the corner before... Alonso got out of that battle rather than losing time extending it into the right-left section ahead.

Some of his other passes though have been much better... I remember the sneak attack on Rosberg in Australia last year being a good one.

A lot of these passes have come in the early stages of the race where often the Red Bull has a clear advantage (as in 2011 when Vettel scampered off to escape DRS so often in the early laps) over it's fellow competitors.

[MarileneRiddle]

Perhaps it has something to do with most drivers choosing the inside lane when defending as well (which will naturally lead Sebastian having to attempt the overtake on the outside).

For example, in Bahrain 13, he tried to overtake Rosberg on in the inside lane first (lap 2) before going on the outside (on lap 3).

Also, as gillesthegenius mentioned, Sebastian is a slow-in-fast-out driver. So it would make more sense to overtake on the outside, where he can straighten his exit once the overtake is done, rather than risk the chance of compromising his corner exit when diving down the inside.

Edited by MarileneRiddle, 27 April 2013 - 08:43.

[Oho]

Being able to overtake on the outside is a sign of a superior car.

Right that's why all the DRS assisted passes on fresher tyres happen on the outside, oh no they don't closer to the opposite, my bad...

[yoyogetfunky]

Being able to overtake on the outside is a sign of a superior car.

It makes a nice change from being able to overtake on a straight due to superior engine.

[as65p]

It makes a nice change from being able to overtake on a straight due to superior engine.

When did that happen last? 20, 30 years ago?

[undersquare]

I thought his move on Alonso in Bahrain was brilliant, using Kers at the right time with the right line. Although as Horner said after the race, they clearly discussed it before the race and that apparently it was Horner's idea!

I think Seb is good at overtaking around the outside because he's got the downforce and grip, but to his credit he also is a very good judge of how much grip is available. In contrast Webber seems to have a lot of trouble judging the same. In fact I remember in 2012 Webber used to brake ridiculously early into Turn 1 in so may races that resulted in him losing even more places than he lost already after getting his characteristic bad start + no KERS.

Yeah the contrast with Webber is huge. I have to admit Sebi is a pretty complete racing package, with the sensitivity, intelligence and aggressive instincts all working together.

Clearly he can only pull off manoeuvres that the car is capable of, but he is remarkably good at seeing the opportunities and executing them.

[Nigol]

He got the skill and the car.

[Disgrace]

David Coulthard used to love passing around the outside.

Obviously it never always worked.

[SealTheDiffuser]

Being able to overtake on the outside is a sign of a superior car.

or a sign that Montoya is driving

[yoyogetfunky]

When did that happen last? 20, 30 years ago?

Id say any overtake from a Mercedes engined car on a non-Mercedes engined car qualifies

[Metronazol]

I think the car charecteristics of the Red Bull play a very big role in this phenomenon; the RB cars have all tended to have better grip in the corners than the rest and that lends itself to being able to go round the outside of other cars alot more in corners. In reference to Hamilton prefering the inside, I think his bravery and control under late braking lend themselves to claiming the inside line of a corner and thus the apex and make the pass

[Cavani]

this has nothing to do with rb9 or renault engine . this is pure driving skills and driver characteristics

[Kalmake]

Red Bull has typically had higher drag and downforce than others. Their KERS has not been the best either.

[MikeTekRacing]

technically it's related to having more grip than the others and the physical ability to drive around the outside.
it probably also has to do with seb's attack strategies and with people being a lot more careful about leaving a gap on the inside than on the outside.

[RockyRaccoon68]

It's a combination of things really...best car in the field for a few seasons with more grip in the corners, other drivers tend to cover the inside line which then compromises their run through the corner. Combine a compromised line through the corner vs a wide line and a better car and that results in a pass.

[P123]

Id say any overtake from a Mercedes engined car on a non-Mercedes engined car qualifies

The gaps between engines makes are now less than they used to be between cars within the same team. Have a look at the speed trap figures- it's a maximum 5km/h between all engine manufacturers. Red Bull traditionally run with more downforce, which leads many to the erroneous assumption that a Renault engine is some sort of disadvantage.

[mnmracer]

Oh god, down to arguing semantics?
Let's just fix it then.

It makes a nice change from being able to overtake on a straight due to superior straight line speed.

There, happy now?

[Skinnyguy]

Yes, he has it. Some others around have it too. Nothing to do with car characteristics or driving style. It´s a mindset.

Some drivers accept the outside easier than others when a rival covers the inside line. When the rival covers going to the inside edge of the track, there´s no decission to be made, when the rival stays in the racing line, there´s no decission to be made. But if the guy in front goes to the middle of the track to cover, it´s time to chose a side.

In this scenario some drivers tend to chose one side or another more times. Lewis, Schumacher or Alonso like to keep digging on the inside if it´s possible even if there´s just a car´s width there, be very late on the brakes and despite their very slow line they make the pass by denying the rival a chance to have a half decent line. Others like Sebastian or Räikkönen give up on this option easier and just concentrate on getting a nice exit into the next section, or even simply outdriving their rivals on a tighter line if the speed advantage they have is big.

But of course everyone is open to try the side they think it´s better every time, nothing is decided previously in their minds. It´s just that a certain decission repeats over time.

[yoyogetfunky]

The gaps between engines makes are now less than they used to be between cars within the same team. Have a look at the speed trap figures- it's a maximum 5km/h between all engine manufacturers. Red Bull traditionally run with more downforce, which leads many to the erroneous assumption that a Renault engine is some sort of disadvantage.

The Renault engine is disadvantaged. Difference in topspeed at Monza nearly 10kmh, with less wing angle than others.

http://www.formula1....speed_trap.html

[RockyRaccoon68]

The Renault engine is disadvantaged. Difference in topspeed at Monza nearly 10kmh, with less wing angle than others.

http://www.formula1....speed_trap.html

The link you provide is amusing because the list is topped by two Renault engined cars!! The Red Bull is an inherently draggy car, it's just their aero philosophy.

[Zava]

The link you provide is amusing because the list is topped by two Renault engined cars!! The Red Bull is an inherently draggy car, it's just their aero philosophy.

to be honest, lotus having a neutral exhaust back then (not making them lose some horses) could be a factor as well.
as well as longer gearing, I remember that despite that great top end speed, they were sitting ducks on the straight because it took them an eternity to reach the top end.

[yoyogetfunky]

The link you provide is amusing because the list is topped by two Renault engined cars!! The Red Bull is an inherently draggy car, it's just their aero philosophy.

LOL! youre right But i think its common knowledge the renault engine is inferior, and to this day holds permition by fia to ''equal'' their output to the mercs, if permitted by the other, not the other way round.

[Ravenak]

He's always had a significantly better traction than the other cars, which explains it all

[P123]

The Renault engine is disadvantaged. Difference in topspeed at Monza nearly 10kmh, with less wing angle than others.

http://www.formula1....speed_trap.html

Yoyo- why when trying to argue that the Renault engine is disadvanatged do you then post speed trap figures with a Renault engined car at the top, and choose a race where Red Bull took a higher downforce setup than most of the field? There's nowt wrong with that Renault engine, it's just the setup Red Bull run. Terminal speed is of course only one measure of an engines' competitiveness.

[Rybo]

this has nothing to do with rb9 or renault engine . this is pure driving skills and driver characteristics

Seriously? The driver and car are always linked, and now to an extent the tires. These past RBR's have always been quick in the corners. Nothing against Seb for using the cars potential.

[mnmracer]

Why are people still discussing the engine when the only argument is straight line speed, regardless of engine?

[Juan Kerr]

The Renault engine is better than the Mercedes this year and about the same as the Ferrari. Seb has overtaken a few people around the outside generally because of his cars vastly superior pure grip.

[string158]

I'd have thought it would have been due to the blown diffuser giving the Redbull much greater cornering speed, and therefor making it easier for Vettel to blast it round the outside?

[JaredS]

Yoyo- why when trying to argue that the Renault engine is disadvanatged do you then post speed trap figures with a Renault engined car at the top