179 replies to this topic

[SpaMaster]

But I think you would Alonso there and of course Schumacher. Hamilton may be bit of an exception since he may be too much of a believer in inside-lines and hard-braking. I think he may be making up his mind well in advance to dive deep down inside ;)

[yoyogetfunky]

I find it funny how the Vettel critcism has evolved every season that he's been in RBR, I wonder what it will be in 2014?

Hahaha good point! 2 years ago we had to read Andrew Benson articles questioning whether Vettel is able to overtake people at all. At least now we are at the stage that his superb, skilful and balsy overtakes are being put down to his 'superior' and 'dominant' car.



I actually dont think there s much between Webber and Vettel. Maybe Vettel has learned a bit more when to move and when not. Its just very nice to see a thread dedicated to Vettels outside passings.

[JaredS]

There was a reason for that though. 2 yrs ago whenever he tried overtaking he'd bang into someone. He's obviously learnt and now much better.

[gillesthegenius]

But I think you would Alonso there and of course Schumacher. Hamilton may be bit of an exception since he may be too much of a believer in inside-lines and hard-braking. I think he may be making up his mind well in advance to dive deep down inside ;)

I'm not too sure about that. Just look up at Skinnyguy's post above, where he gives multiple instances where Alonso goes for high risk dives down the inside. That is something that Seb looks to avoid almost as if its taboo to do that.

[gillesthegenius]

There was a reason for that though. 2 yrs ago whenever he tried overtaking he'd bang into someone. He's obviously learnt and now much better.

With such exaggeration, don't you think that you are committing the same crime that the people who created that myth committed.

[gillesthegenius]

Hahaha good point! 2 years ago we had to read Andrew Benson articles questioning whether Vettel is able to overtake people at all. At least now we are at the stage that his superb, skilful and balsy overtakes are being put down to his 'superior' and 'dominant' car.



I actually dont think there s much between Webber and Vettel. Maybe Vettel has learned a bit more when to move and when not. Its just very nice to see a thread dedicated to Vettels outside passings.

I'm starting to wonder whether this 'dominant car' argument is a result of an inferiority complex that's making people fear that giving Seb even the slightest of credit for something would imply that they are accepting him as the best.

[Skinnyguy]

^ Like I said the overtakes on the outside would be nicer because has to stick his nose out often to do it. It involves fair bit of skill and car performance. That's all. This is not a case of tendency.

It is mate. Alright, let´s do something: forget about the overtakes. It´s confusing some of you, that´s not the point that he "passes a lot/is good passing" down the outside.

Wath matters here is a certain decission that Seb repeats a lot, which is generating lots of passes on the outside. From now on, watch closely Vettel when he goes down a straight chasing someone, and watch where he goes once the guy ahead moves to cover. Most of times a timid defensive move will be enough to stop him trying the inside.

[Claudius]

When a driver covers the inside line effectively it is standard for the car behind to go to the outside, and once you are on the outside line it's natural to brake as late if not later than they guy ahead who is defending because your turn-in point will be later than his (assuming you're not intending to turn into him). But in most instances the defence to the inside is successful and the guy on the outside has to tuck in behind at some point during cornering, because he can't get to the apex and he can't carry enough speed on the dirty outside line to make the move work. When it works it shows that the passing car has superior grip. And you don't have to decide in advance whether you're going to make a pass on the outside, you can go to the outside, see how much grip there is when you get there, and depending on how much speed you can carry you will either see the other car pulling across the circuit in front of you, or you won't. If you don't, you've got past, or at least alongside.

Why does Vettel make so many outside-line passes? Because he's the quicker of the two drivers who drive the dominant car. Anybody who thinks the Red Bull hasn't been the best car for four years, and utterly dominant for the last three years, has not been paying attention. The fact that they threw away their chance in 2009 by failing to finish races when Brawn was quicker than them at the start of the season, and that they then made heavy weather of winning the titles in 2010 and 2012, tells you more about Vettel and Webber's lack of consistency than it does about the car. Newey has been consistently brilliant over the period and has every right to be disappointed to have lost the 2009 titles, since he has built the best car every year since the radical regulation changes of 2009.

I still maintain that drivers who apparently don't make outside-line passes, like Hamilton, it is because they can't find the grip to get moves done against competitive cars on the outside. It's easy to put youself in a position to try a move on the outside. Whether the move works depends on the grip you find when you get there. When Hamilton tries the outside, invariably he doesn't get past so, because we're only paying attention to successful overtakes, we conclude he "prefers to keep digging on the inside".

Good post.
I also think that the car is of paramount importance for which side to overtake.
There are plenty of examples of drivers trying a pass on the outside but unable to pull it cause the car loses grip there.
Unless you have a car with plenty downforce.

But hey, there are posters here who categorically "know" somehow that it's not about the car (in the comfort of their armchairs).
I wish I was that certain about anything...

Edited by Claudius, 29 April 2013 - 17:47.

[SpaMaster]

I'm not too sure about that. Just look up at Skinnyguy's post above, where he gives multiple instances where Alonso goes for high risk dives down the inside. That is something that Seb looks to avoid almost as if its taboo to do that.

I don't see it that way. In any overtake, if there is an option to go inside as well outside, it is always better to go inside even if it is tight. Inside is always the more vulnerable position. Drivers are told to defend the inside line first. It is no wonder that Alonso has gone for the inside lines in those case. Most drivers should. If you are going to be on the limit to make a pass stick, inside line is safer because you are prone to be driven off the track on the outside if push comes to shove.

[Skinnyguy]

I also think that the car is of paramount importance for which side to overtake.

No. What the car ahead does in the previous straight is number 1 factor for which side to pass. What you decide when he offers both sides is number 2.

There are plenty of examples of drivers trying a pass on the outside but unable to pull it cause the car looses grip there.

Main factor stopping passes around the outside to happen is the fact that you´re not free to turn when you want, but when you´re allowed to. The fact that you need to have your nose in front to be given room in the exit helps too. What the car ahead does is again main cause of these attempts not sticking, not grip or lack of. During wheel to wheel action cars spend less time on the limit of their grip than during normal alone cornering. Why? Because the guy close to you won´t let you do what you need to do next. Having grip helps a lot, but all the grip in the world won´t get you pass a smart guy avoiding you to use it (inside the rules).

Unless you have a car with plenty downforce.

Most around the outside passes are done in slow corners, where mechanical grip rules. And when they happen in fast corners, it´s not the downforce making the difference but the wider line you get into it giving you a much faster entry. Again, during side by side action you´re not likely to be able to exploit the full grip of your car.

But hey, there are posters here who categorically "know" somehow that it's not about the car (in the comfort of their armchairs).

The decission making process when the guy ahead covers has nothing to do with the car. The outcome of the attempt once you try the pass is. We´re discussing the first. Now you know what the discussion is, feel free to make an on-topic comment.

[Skinnyguy]

I don't see it that way. In any overtake, if there is an option to go inside as well outside, it is always better to go inside even if it is tight.

Not at all. It depends in a lot of things. Sometimes it´s better, sometimes worst. I don´t think you need me to post examples, but just in case:

Picture yourself exiting Spoon very close to a rival. You get an excellent tow. He goes to the middle of the track to cover, and you stick your car to the inside. So you´re going into 130R glued to the inside line, with a guy fully alongside you on the racing line. It´s a corner that every car has the performance to do flat out normally, so grip is not a factor, but imagine you both have equally good cars.

What will happen next? When you arrive there, you´ll have to lift (even brake and downshift once) if you want to make the corner at all. He´ll keep it flat and will be able to even use the full width of the track because you won´t be even alongside him when he arrives to the apex. You´ll lose close to a second when you make it to triangle chicane, and you´ll lose another place if there´s someone close behind.

[Claudius]

No. What the car ahead does in the previous straight is number 1 factor for which side to pass. What you decide when he offers both sides is number 2.

Yes, so?

Main factor stopping passes around the outside to happen is the fact that you´re not free to turn when you want, but when you´re allowed to. The fact that you need to have your nose in front to be given room in the exit helps too. What the car ahead does is again main cause of these attempts not sticking, not grip or lack of. During wheel to wheel action cars spend less time on the limit of their grip than during normal alone cornering. Why? Because the guy close to you won´t let you do what you need to do next. Having grip helps a lot, but all the grip in the world won´t get you pass a smart guy avoiding you to use it (inside the rules).

No.The reason you can be on the outside and still turn in side by side with the car on the inside has a lot to do with the car you're driving.
The other driver can try and block you but when you have sufficent grip and can be side by side, you can force him to give you space on the exit and thus make the overtaking stick.
Again, it's about the car allowing you to do that. If not for the car, you'de never be in position to threaten from the outside since you'd lose grip going into a corner.

Most around the outside passes are done in slow corners, where mechanical grip rules. And when they happen in fast corners, it´s not the downforce making the difference but the wider line you get into it giving you a much faster entry. Again, during side by side action you´re not likely to be able to exploit the full grip of your car.

I agree with that.

The decission making process when the guy ahead covers has nothing to do with the car. The outcome of the attempt once you try the pass is. We´re discussing the first. Now you know what the discussion is, feel free to make an on-topic comment.

But you're not realizing (or choose not to) that the car is allowing Seb to try overtakes on the outside in the first place.
Let him try doing that in the Marussias or Caterhams and I'm sure he'd have to back off more often than not.
That's what you so conviently are obfuscating.

[SpaMaster]

That redreni post - what a load of rubbish!

The car is dominant, that's it? It's not like Red Bull has had poor top speed and has lagged in straight-line speed during this time?

It is mate. Alright, let´s do something: forget about the overtakes. It´s confusing some of you, that´s not the point that he "passes a lot/is good passing" down the outside.

Wath matters here is a certain decission that Seb repeats a lot, which is generating lots of passes on the outside. From now on, watch closely Vettel when he goes down a straight chasing someone, and watch where he goes once the guy ahead moves to cover. Most of times a timid defensive move will be enough to stop him trying the inside.

I haven't watched and recounted each and every one of Vettel's overtakes. But if he does take the outside line invariably at the slightest movement to inside by driver ahead, I think he has a few things to learn. There is a reason why the driver ahead moves to the inside as the act of defense. It is the most vulnerable position and any attacking should know that. Otherwise the defending drivers would defend the outside! Does that sound weird. Most noticeably, Vettel went into the thinnest of inside gap at Malaysia (that was one of his best overtakes and I don't believe for a moment Webber was not fighting). I don't know if he has the tendency and it is hard to prove unless we can list all his overtakes with videos and show his preference for the outside when the inside option is available. In any case, that would be a mistake. It is tough for me to believe. So, my take is it is coincidence and ability.

[JimiKart]

Still piling on the nonsense, still bent on a megafail? let me help you then... lots of power and traction, you go outside, not enough power or traction, you dive down the inside and out brake.

When you spend a season diving down the inside you don't have the best car, when you spend a season or 3 going round the long way, you do have the best car... got it now, no more need to try and change the laws of physics to explain Seb's dominance.

[Skinnyguy]

No.The reason you can be on the outside and still turn in side by side with the car on the inside has a lot to do with the car you're driving.
The other driver can try and block you but when you have sufficent grip and can be side by side, you can force him to give you space on the exit and thus make the overtaking stick.
Again, it's about the car allowing you to do that. If not for the car, you'de never be in position to threaten from the outside since you'd lose grip going into a corner.

Without the right car, you wouldn´t be chasing at all. That´s where it ends. And you´re very wrong about something: it doesn´t take extra grip to make a wider and faster line. Sometimes it´s a very tight and sharp line with a **** entry angle requiring the extra grip over the guy out there.

But you're not realizing (or choose not to) that the car is allowing Seb to try overtakes on the outside in the first place.
Let him try doing that in the Marussias or Caterhams and I'm sure he'd have to back off more often than not.
That's what you so conviently are obfuscating.

It´s idiotic on your part putting that on anyone´s mouth. Put him in these cars and he won´t be even close to the back of anyone, let alone trying anything.

[P123]

It's just a combination of car/ driver. Vettel is certainly one of the better racers in the field, despite his 'can't pass' reputation, which is long outdated.

I've no idea if he makes more moves on the outside than inside, or if he makes more moves on the outside than anybody else (although the notion that Hamilton doesn't pass on the oustide can be laughed at for it's ignorance) but I do agree with the OP that some of his more memorable moves have been passes around the outside.

Edited by P123, 29 April 2013 - 18:14.

[Skinnyguy]

I haven't watched and recounted each and every one of Vettel's overtakes. But if he does take the outside line invariably at the slightest movement to inside by driver ahead, I think he has a few things to learn.

Of course it´s not like that. Let´s say it´s just easier to cut him out of that route than doing it with others. He won´t go as far as Lewis, who even lifted a bit in the slipstream of Massa in Germany 2008 to see if a gap would open later on the inside. If he hesitates about the ammount of room he´ll get in there (picture in your mind a Webber late chop), he´ll back out most times, while others might commit anyway most times. It has a lot to do with risk tolerance if you ask me.

It´s just a general, not a dogma. He sometimes takes the risk into a small gap in the inside, everyone does sometimes. Watch his move alongside Webber in Turkey 2010 right before the infamous clash. Webber left a car´s width on his left and he put his car there. Or his more recent race winning pass in Malaysia where Webber gave him just a car´s width bewteen him and a concrete wall.

[Claudius]

Without the right car, you wouldn´t be chasing at all. That´s where it ends. And you´re very wrong about something: it doesn´t take extra grip to make a wider and faster line. Sometimes it´s a very tight and sharp line with a **** entry angle requiring the extra grip over the guy out there.


It´s idiotic on your part putting that on anyone´s mouth. Put him in these cars and he won´t be even close to the back of anyone, let alone trying anything.

That was an example of the limitations on the driving imposed by the car. It's not about overtaking faster cars, it's about overtaking cars with similair performance but without the grip he currently enjoys. Thus, trying to do what he does with a car further back in the field would be much much more difficult. Hence, it's about that car.
If you think that's idiotic then fine, it's your right.

[SpaMaster]

Of course it´s not like that. Let´s say it´s just easier to cut him out of that route than doing it with others. He won´t go as far as Lewis, who even lifted a bit in the slipstream of Massa in Germany 2008 to see if a gap would open later on the inside. If he hesitates about the ammount of room he´ll get in there (picture in your mind a Webber late chop), he´ll back out most times, while others might commit anyway most times. It has a lot to do with risk tolerance if you ask me.
..

But isn't a move on the outside generally more risky?

[bourbon]

That was an example of the limitations on the driving imposed by the car. It's not about overtaking faster cars, it's about overtaking cars with similair performance but without the grip he currently enjoys. Thus, trying to do what he does with a car further back in the field would be much much more difficult. Hence, it's about that car.
If you think that's idiotic then fine, it's your right.

I think the point was that in addition to having a car with potential, you need a driver with capability to extract that potential and the willingness to do it. It isn't one or the other - can't be.

[Skinnyguy]

But isn't a move on the outside generally more risky?

Notice that the decission is made down a straight with a guy blocking a side of the road, more or less hard. And in the decission moment, it´s much more risky to keep digging on the line the other guy is trying to block than to accept the outside.

In the same situation, in the same zone of the same straight, this is dangerous:



While this is not:

(0:22)

About the move itself, the passing attempt in the corner, not necesarily. It depends what you try to do. Outside is indeed more dangerous if you´re trying to hold on aaaaall corner long around the outside, we all know you´re likely to be pushed wide if you don´t get in front. But if what you´re trying is un undercut +better run out, the risk is much smaller than a dive down the inside (you don´t even have to worry about the other guy turning in on you) and that undercut move is started from the outside.

[Claudius]

I think the point was that in addition to having a car with potential, you need a driver with capability to extract that potential and the willingness to do it. It isn't one or the other - can't be.

I agree with that, I think it's a car - driver combo. The reason I was emphasising the car is because it was being left outside of the narrative, as if all was due to the driver.
You need a great driver that can maximise the potential but you also need a very good car that allows the driver to do that.
That is Seb and RB in a nutshell IMO.

[Skinnyguy]

That was an example of the limitations on the driving imposed by the car. It's not about overtaking faster cars, it's about overtaking cars with similair performance but without the grip he currently enjoys.

OK, I´ll try again to see if you understand what I´m saying. If you dropped the agenda you´d grasp it.

Grip difference between cars l is irrelevant for the decission on which side to go behind a defender moving across on a straight. The defender will decide on which side the pass will happen. If he goes to the middle and leaves the choice to the guy behind, the guy behind will decide based on what HE thinks it´s better. The extra grip won´t change the decission (it´s made in a previous straight), it will just made the move more likely to stick on whichever side the attacker choses. After years of watching him, Vettel looks more prone than others to yield the obvious inside attempt easier when a rival tries to cover it. That´s the message. I´m not saying:

1) RB wasn´t the best car in recent years.
2) RB didn´t enjoy extra grip most times in recent years.
3) Vettel is a God of overtaking, that´s why he choses the outside.

Edited by Skinnyguy, 29 April 2013 - 19:05.

[Atreiu]

Overtaking is entirely circumstancial, if you ask me. DRS, trye saving, fuel saving, KERS on and/or off, how hard the guys ahead will defend himself, speed differential... And these drivers are good enough to do it anyhow, it just depends on how hard to driver ahead will defend himself.

I guess it's just a coincidence that some drivers seem to prefer one way or another.

[Skinnyguy]

Overtaking is entirely circumstancial, if you ask me. DRS, trye saving, fuel saving, KERS on and/or off, how hard the guys ahead will defend himself, speed differential... And these drivers are good enough to do it anyhow, it just depends on how hard to driver ahead will defend himself.

I guess it's just a coincidence that some drivers seem to prefer one way or another.

It´s true: a lot of this depends of factors totally out of control of the attacker.

But you can´t avoid seeing patterns emerging over time in these guys´ racing. Schumacher´s pole defense weaving heavily in the 90´s, Webber´s trademark defense "the late chop", Lewis trademark attack the good old late braking on the inside... they are not all the same when they get into battles.

[gillesthegenius]

I agree with that, I think it's a car - driver combo. The reason I was emphasising the car is because it was being left outside of the narrative, as if all was due to the driver.
You need a great driver that can maximise the potential but you also need a very good car that allows the driver to do that.
That is Seb and RB in a nutshell IMO.

I think many people are suggesting that its indeed a tendency that has developed due to the car driver combo. But just as you see the need to emphasize the car, there are others who see the need to emphasize Seb's contribution, given the numerous posts that have suggested how its all because of dominant cars that can almost drive themselves. That's what is probably making you feel that the narrative is solely about Seb.

[ardbeg]

I think many people are suggesting that its indeed a tendency that has developed due to the car driver combo. But just as you see the need to emphasize the car, there are others who see the need to emphasize Seb's contribution, given the numerous posts that have suggested how its all because of dominant cars that can almost drive themselves. That's what is probably making you feel that the narrative is solely about Seb.

It's nothing about having dominant car, each overtake is a result of you being faster than the car ahead of you. After that it is up to the differences in characteristics of the cars in question. Vettels car is rather slow at the straights so he has little possibility to dive on the inside, in time, and it is relatively easy to defend the inside line. When inside line is defended, there is only the outside left. Same for Kimi. You don't see any of them making many DRS passes. I think both of them would prefer the inside line, but there is none.

[Claudius]

OK, I´ll try again to see if you understand what I´m saying. If you dropped the agenda you´d grasp it.

Grip difference between cars l is irrelevant for the decission on which side to go behind a defender moving across on a straight. The defender will decide on which side the pass will happen. If he goes to the middle and leaves the choice to the guy behind, the guy behind will decide based on what HE thinks it´s better. The extra grip won´t change the decission (it´s made in a previous straight), it will just made the move more likely to stick on whichever side the attacker choses. After years of watching him, Vettel looks more prone than others to yield the obvious inside attempt easier when a rival tries to cover it. That´s the message. I´m not saying:

1) RB wasn´t the best car in recent years.
2) RB didn´t enjoy extra grip most times in recent years.
3) Vettel is a God of overtaking, that´s why he choses the outside.

I got all that the first time around, no agenda here.

What I'm saying is that the car, RB, is allowing him to choose going around the outside more times than not. If he was driving another car further down the field it would be much harder for him to choose to overtake on the outside.
I can't say it in a more simple term. If you don't understand that, there isn't more I can do.
In that case we'd have to agree to disagree.

[bonjon1979a]

I got all that the first time around, no agenda here.

What I'm saying is that the car, RB, is allowing him to choose going around the outside more times than not. If he was driving another car further down the field it would be much harder for him to choose to overtake on the outside.
I can't say it in a more simple term. If you don't understand that, there isn't more I can do.
In that case we'd have to agree to disagree.

I think you're pretty close to the truth here. Invariably the Red Bull isn't quick enough on the straights to overtake cars so the best option is in the corners. Because most cars defending will take the inside line, the Red Bull is forced to and has the grip to be able to overtake around the outside. It's fairly simple really.

[sock22]

Could another issue here be confidence on the brakes or braking stability? Obviously to pull off a move on the inside you will need to brake late and it's not something usually attributed to Vettel (or the Red Bull cars) as a strength. I'd say Seb just does whatever is most likely to get the job done which, given his and Red Bull's strengths, happens to be overtaking on the outside, relying on good traction.