Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

GT5 Time trial Nürburgring II


  • Please log in to reply
53 replies to this topic

#1 Jovanotti

Jovanotti
  • Member

  • 2,796 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 29 April 2013 - 18:28

Track: Nürburgring Nordschleife (without GP track)

Cars: BMW Z4 M/M3/M5

Rules: Only limit is 530 PP, otherwise tuning and tyres as you want. Time has to be valid, i.e. no "red times" for cutting, crashing etc.


Leaderboard

Z4 M
1. Peeko............................06:51.892
2. Jovanotti........................06:53.640
3. DanardiF1.......................06:55.463
4. The Kanisteri...................06:57.348
5. Ristin.............................07:00.822

M3
1. Peeko...........................06:45.818
2. The Kanisteri..................06:48.800
3. Jovanotti.......................06:51.264
4. Tenmantaylor.................06:55.596
5. Ristin............................06:57.610
6. Viktor............................07:04.666


M5
1. The Kanisteri..................06:54.076
2. Jovanotti.......................06:57.502


Powerboard
(all times combined, colour codes: Z4 M/M3/M5

1. Peeko............................06:45.818
2. The Kanisteri..................06:48.800
3. Jovanotti.......................06:51.264
4. Peeko...........................06:51.892
5. Jovanotti.......................06:53.640
6. The Kanisteri..................06:54.076
7. DanardiF1......................06:55.463
8. Tenmantaylor.................06:55.596

9. The Kanisteri..................06:57.348
10. Jovanotti......................06:57.502
11. Ristin...........................06:57.610
12. Ristin...........................07:00.822
13. Viktor..........................07:04.666

Edited by Jovanotti, 22 June 2013 - 15:34.


Advertisement

#2 Tenmantaylor

Tenmantaylor
  • Member

  • 8,223 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 29 April 2013 - 19:43

M Car challenge including M3 and M5? Or would that favour 1 car too much?

#3 DanardiF1

DanardiF1
  • Member

  • 6,469 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 30 April 2013 - 01:23

I think a fully tuned Z4 M is around 540pp isn't it? So if like taylor suggests we use other Beemers too I would say that they should be limited to 540pp.

I have a day off tomorrow so will dig out my Z4 and have a bash!

#4 Tenmantaylor

Tenmantaylor
  • Member

  • 8,223 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 30 April 2013 - 11:00

Sounds good to limit PP points. Im sure tuned to the max one will begin to prevail but untuned I can't imagine they'd be that far off each other in ring lap time. Yes the M3 and M5 have more power but are both increasingly heavy and probably progressively worse on the ring's legendary twisty bits.

If http://en.wikipedia....leife_lap_times is to be believed:

Z4 M - 8m12
M3 E92 - 8m05
M5 E60 - 8m13


Although this site has the 2011(F10?) M5 down at 7m55: http://fastestlaps.c...rdschleife.html

Think it's only the old M5 in GT5 IIRC so shouldn't be much in it.

Whaddya say? :smoking:

#5 baddog

baddog
  • Member

  • 23,261 posts
  • Joined: June 99

Posted 30 April 2013 - 11:18

might have a crack if I have time, any special rules? tyres etc?

#6 Jovanotti

Jovanotti
  • Member

  • 2,796 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 30 April 2013 - 11:22

I like the idea of an M-challenge, so yeah let's just limit the PP. I get 528 PP from my fully tuned Z4, so we can put the limit at round 530 PP if you guys are ok with that. Rules and ranking will be updated in the OP. Have fun!

Edited by Jovanotti, 30 April 2013 - 11:23.


#7 Jovanotti

Jovanotti
  • Member

  • 2,796 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 01 May 2013 - 13:19

To get things going, I did a 6:59.514 with the Z4 - missed a few corners and had one smaller off, so there surely is more to come ;)

#8 DanardiF1

DanardiF1
  • Member

  • 6,469 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 01 May 2013 - 15:41

Had a little go earlier, couldn't get a decent lap together so my best was a 7.00.434... I could easily knock 5+ seconds off that, but on my faster laps I either had an off or invalidated it...

That was in the Z4 M.

Edited by DanardiF1, 01 May 2013 - 15:42.


#9 The Kanisteri

The Kanisteri
  • Member

  • 10,476 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 09 May 2013 - 16:08

I give a try on this...times soon

#10 The Kanisteri

The Kanisteri
  • Member

  • 10,476 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 09 May 2013 - 21:53

M3 Coupe 2007: 6:48.800
M5 2008: 6:54.076
Z4 M Coupe 2008: 6:57.348

Comments:

M3 Coupe was fun and fast to drive even I had to tune down to required 530 performance points. Chassis was too stiff for this track and I had some yikes! moments at bumpy curves. However, I got clean and decent time, but there's still lot to improve.

Z4 M Coupe. Funny that Jovanotti was able to get 528 PP, while I had all maxed out and got just 516pp. On the otherhand, I didn't have ugly wing for my cars in this challenge. Maybe rear spoiler adds 12 points more?
However, I tried first with Z4 but didn't get times lower than 6:59 and I felt car lacked lot of highspeed power and acceleration was bit sluggish. Z4 M Coupe with similar setting was far more better, but time didn't improve much - just two seconds. Again too stiff suspension gave headache especially at Adenauer Forst and car tend to jump wildly and only with pure luck I was able to keep car on track. At last straight I wish I would have got more power for last gear. Before braking zone I hit 308 kph on downhill.

M5 was interesting one. I've occasionally had few races with it and it felt alright, but Nürburgring was uh..different. Car tend to flip over from first corner! Too powerfull, too much grip, too light weight adn unsuitable suspension settings for driving in Nürburgring. I had to do lot of work on setups so car wouldn't even roll over every other corner, in my fastest lap couple of corners went through with two side wheels....
However, I didn't use best possible front tyres so it did decrease change to flip car. Topspeed of M5 was rather good but cornering issues made laptime slower than with M3 Coupe.


Edited by The Kanisteri, 10 May 2013 - 08:51.


#11 Jovanotti

Jovanotti
  • Member

  • 2,796 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:39

Nice, ranking updated. My time with the M3 definitely needs improving. Are you driving with a wheel (and if yes, how much of a difference does it make you'd reckon)?

Z4 M Coupe. Funny that Jovanotti was able to get 528 PP, while I had all maxed out and got just 516pp. On the otherhand, I didn't have ugly wing for my cars in this challenge. Maybe rear spoiler adds 12 points more?

Yup, I got the rear spoiler on all cars.

The M3 is the most fun for me to drive, just has a good amount of slight oversteer through the corners, the Z4 is a bit too understeery for my taste. The M5...well, it's just too big around the Nordschleife.

Btw is it generally beneficial to do full weight reduction and put some of the weight back as ballast in order to meet the PP limit, rather than having to dramatically tune the engine down?

Edited by Jovanotti, 10 May 2013 - 12:44.


#12 The Kanisteri

The Kanisteri
  • Member

  • 10,476 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 10 May 2013 - 13:11

Jovanotti,

Cars are made to drive with wheel so I bet it adds more on precision for driving than gamepads. I cannot say how it feels to drive GT5 with gamepad since I have never actually tried it (with joystic and aeroplane throttle I have, but it's complete other story... :p ).

I got better time with M5 when I bought new one and didn't do weight reducion at all. Weigth prevented car flipping on roof in low speeds (though I managed that on 250 kph... Posted Image )

Edited by The Kanisteri, 10 May 2013 - 13:13.


#13 Peeko

Peeko
  • Member

  • 3,210 posts
  • Joined: October 99

Posted 10 May 2013 - 17:42

Are these times set using skid recovery?

#14 The Kanisteri

The Kanisteri
  • Member

  • 10,476 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 10 May 2013 - 19:41

Skid Recovery was not forbidden. I had it on and ABS 1, other were off.

I could grind track around without skid recovery system off, but since track won't forgive goof (red - white time) I kept skid recovery.

Edited by The Kanisteri, 10 May 2013 - 19:44.


#15 Jovanotti

Jovanotti
  • Member

  • 2,796 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 12 May 2013 - 09:11

Yup it's not forbidden, however I had turned it off for my laps.

#16 Tenmantaylor

Tenmantaylor
  • Member

  • 8,223 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 13 May 2013 - 12:43

You guys using gamepad or wheel? Take it on racing soft tyres also?

#17 Jovanotti

Jovanotti
  • Member

  • 2,796 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 13 May 2013 - 13:22

I'm using a standard gamepad, others a wheel.

Apart from < 530pp, anything goes.

#18 Viktor

Viktor
  • Member

  • 3,390 posts
  • Joined: February 99

Posted 19 May 2013 - 14:35

I take a commanding 3'rd place in the M3 category with lots of clean air infront and behind.

7:17.108 :)

/Viktor

#19 Viktor

Viktor
  • Member

  • 3,390 posts
  • Joined: February 99

Posted 19 May 2013 - 19:21

Ok, down to 7:12.027.

/Viktor

Advertisement

#20 Viktor

Viktor
  • Member

  • 3,390 posts
  • Joined: February 99

Posted 20 May 2013 - 18:47

Another day and another improvement, 7:04.666. I can see a very high 6:5x time with some more laps.

/Viktor

#21 Jovanotti

Jovanotti
  • Member

  • 2,796 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 20 May 2013 - 19:23

Keep it up :up:

#22 Tenmantaylor

Tenmantaylor
  • Member

  • 8,223 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 21 May 2013 - 08:28

OK so after 3 red attempts at 7.15, 7.10 and 7.05 I finally put in clean lap in thr M3 at 7m00.949 :) Using pad and no aids.

#23 DanardiF1

DanardiF1
  • Member

  • 6,469 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 22 May 2013 - 17:13

New FL for me and the Z4: 6.55.463

That's probably as much as I'll get out of it without having to do the perfect lap (pretty much impossible on the Ring...). The front goes light in too many places for my liking...

#24 baddog

baddog
  • Member

  • 23,261 posts
  • Joined: June 99

Posted 24 May 2013 - 12:39

I am confuxed.. I have an M3 coupe 2007.. I think I have maxed all parts and it is only 512PP. clearly Im missing something major here or it is the wrong car? Thoughts?

#25 The Kanisteri

The Kanisteri
  • Member

  • 10,476 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 24 May 2013 - 13:05

M3 should easily exceed 530pp limit. Maybe you have forgotten additional weight or engine detuned from earlier game. Change oils too.

I had to detune M3 Coupe for this event.

One other possibility is you haven't updated game for ages and PP were calculated different way. :p

#26 baddog

baddog
  • Member

  • 23,261 posts
  • Joined: June 99

Posted 25 May 2013 - 04:26

Ill take another look and see if I can see the difference..

#27 baddog

baddog
  • Member

  • 23,261 posts
  • Joined: June 99

Posted 25 May 2013 - 06:28

Hadnt thought about wings and oil change. duh.

628pp now

Now just have to drive the thing lol

Shaun


#28 baddog

baddog
  • Member

  • 23,261 posts
  • Joined: June 99

Posted 25 May 2013 - 07:40

First laps with a controller Im 20 seconds off. I guess thats not actually so bad, will hook the wheel up and see how that goes later

#29 DanardiF1

DanardiF1
  • Member

  • 6,469 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 26 May 2013 - 23:08

First laps with a controller Im 20 seconds off. I guess thats not actually so bad, will hook the wheel up and see how that goes later


Because the 'Ring is so big, even on the 2nd lap you can find seconds of time, because with so many corners tenths gained just keep building up and up.

It's why I never hang it all out on the first lap of a time trial 'qualifying' type run. It's all about driving a natural lap first, seeing where that gets you, and then beginning to poke and prod in the sections you know there's time to be found.

I've always been good from the Karussell onwards, but even now I still don't push fully there on my first lap.

#30 The Kanisteri

The Kanisteri
  • Member

  • 10,476 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 27 May 2013 - 07:57

I did drive few laps without Skid Recovery System with Z4 M. I was slightly faster than time I have here, but unfortunately got red times at end and I have to try again later.
I think it's possible to get better times on track without SRS if you drive Z4 M or M5 (why not with M3 too since it's very agile on this track).

SRS might make M5 to roll over so without it car might have actually better handling.

#31 Ristin

Ristin
  • Member

  • 36 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 28 May 2013 - 21:44

Hallo there,
I thought this sounded like fun, so I join in and have a try.
Best lap so far is 6:58,602 with the M3 Coupe. On my last lap I had actually bettered my time by 1.1 sec when I lost it at Mutkurve. Enough for now, I'll try again the other day.
Not happy at all with the Z4's time: 7:00,822 and really no idea how I could do a lot better.
Ristin

#32 Tenmantaylor

Tenmantaylor
  • Member

  • 8,223 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 29 May 2013 - 17:38

2nd clean attempt 6.55.596 in the M3 :) Managed to find a more driveable setup.

#33 Jovanotti

Jovanotti
  • Member

  • 2,796 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 30 May 2013 - 09:42

What kind of things do you guys fiddle around with set-ups? I only tried with more/less wing, gear ratios and weight distribution so far..?

#34 The Kanisteri

The Kanisteri
  • Member

  • 10,476 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 30 May 2013 - 12:42

Suspension stiffness and ride height and finetuning are quite essential at Nürburgring. Track is very long, it has lot of variations and surface is very bouncy. Key is to make good compromise and keep car on road.

Edited by The Kanisteri, 30 May 2013 - 12:44.


#35 Ristin

Ristin
  • Member

  • 36 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 30 May 2013 - 13:37

I do actually fiddle around with almost everything. Except weight balance (I believe in low weight, so I try to avoid additional weight) and trail (no experience yet somI keep my fingers off). Suspension setting is paramount, of course. But I also find adjusting the limited slip diff pretty useful for controlling the "willingness" to turn into a corner. Concerning the gear setting: do you also feel that GT5 likes long tansmission ratios but heavily punishes spot on or slightly too short settings? Or is it just me?

Just done a new time with the M3 Coupe: 7:57,610
Ristin

#36 DanardiF1

DanardiF1
  • Member

  • 6,469 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 31 May 2013 - 00:09

I basically just looked around some of the endless setups available online and through some trial and error found one that suited my driving style... I do need to work on the front end of my Z4 though because whilst it's benign enough in the bends, on some of the faster stretches it skips and jumps and really distracts me from doing a good lap. I think taking a bit more out of the damping on the front may alleviate that somewhat whilst still giving me some of the feel I've been enjoying from the Bimmer.

If you're looking to make your own bespoke setup, you have to work on everything, because it really is a case of each part interacting with the others. First thing I'd change is the suspension. Get the springs and dampers to your liking first, so the car feels naturally (not neutral, natural. Some cars are naturally tail happy or naturally understeery. What you want is to tighten the car up but not make it do something it can't) useable. Then work on the camber and toe to bring some of that balance back towards neutrality (you're not messing with the car's natural balance now, but changing how the tyres bite). Now work on the LSD, as again, that can help you change the balance of the car whilst keeping it's fundamental grip.

Gear ratios are important. It would be easier to go and find a setup online for these, as most of them are tuned for the Ring and I have no idea how they work out the curves etc. I would suggest though that you find a set of ratios that allow you to stay mostly in one gear in the twisty stuff after the Karussell. I've always found my best laps in any car have come when I've been able to attack that 'section' without having to change down just because I'm falling down the revs. Of course I will change gear now and then, but the best way is to get a 3rd or 4th gear that gives you good power and torque from around 75-95 mph to allow you to power out of corners.




#37 Jovanotti

Jovanotti
  • Member

  • 2,796 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 31 May 2013 - 07:39

Cheers guys, some good stuff there :up:

#38 Tenmantaylor

Tenmantaylor
  • Member

  • 8,223 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 31 May 2013 - 08:08

Playing around with the weight ballast and power restrictor were the main ones. I ended up finding that 1400kg and 499hp with the weight bias at -10 (to the front) gave the best compromise of grip and balance under 530pp. Might have been different with wheel. Initially I was convinced the lowest weight (1342kg) would be best (in true Chapman style) but it made the car really twitchy on turn in and adding ballast to push the weight forward a tad stabilised the car for pad driving, especially in the higher speed corners, and the extra power afforded from the ballast helped on the long drags. Played with lowered and stiffened suspension a little and tweaked the diff but didn't feel any benefit. Maybe need to go the opposite way to make the car more supple, with more time and using wheel I think I could challenge for the top spot ;)

PS Jova, I think you need to add a 'powerboard' with all times combined :) Interesting to see how close the cars are given the difference in engine and chassis :)

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 31 May 2013 - 08:16.


#39 baddog

baddog
  • Member

  • 23,261 posts
  • Joined: June 99

Posted 31 May 2013 - 10:03

What top speed are people gearing the M3 for?

Advertisement

#40 The Kanisteri

The Kanisteri
  • Member

  • 10,476 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 31 May 2013 - 10:17

I didn't actually mind topspeed much, I wanted to have good torque, speed and handling through corners and mid track uphills. I guess you win there more than you can lose in last long straight.

I did ajust last gear bit longer if revlimiter was hitting at Antoniusbuche (https://upload.wikim...ordschleife.svg)

#41 Tenmantaylor

Tenmantaylor
  • Member

  • 8,223 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 31 May 2013 - 12:25

With the default racing gearing I revved out at 183mph on the long straight so lengthened 6th only and hit about 191 I think on best lap. Was too scared to look coming down the hill after bridge, didn't want to red the lap at the final chicane :D Obviously it's only going to give you 1/4 1/2 a second over the whole lap but every little counts ;) 1st to 5th were decent with default racing 'box, most corners are 3rd which is about right for a 6 speed at the ring, carousel 2nd, 4th in faster corners like one before Bergwerk. 5th on most short straights and only into 6th on winding straight after Flugplatz, down into foxhole, windy straight before mini carousel and on main straight IIRC. Maybe into 6th briefly on the long winding uphill straight couple corners after Bergwerk.

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 31 May 2013 - 12:27.


#42 The Kanisteri

The Kanisteri
  • Member

  • 10,476 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 31 May 2013 - 12:36

Tenmantaylor,

Remember that you are most likely driving with 6th gear Kesselchen straights flat out...and it's all uphill. What you win in that long straight at end, you might lose more at Kesselchen.

#43 Tenmantaylor

Tenmantaylor
  • Member

  • 8,223 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 31 May 2013 - 12:43

Good point, the shorter gearing will gain couple mph there. It's also wh Red Bull also happy to rev out on most straights for a second or two but I absolutely hate revving out. Feels like giving money away ; ) I'd rather get a better exit onto the uphill straights knowing I maxed the flat straights out. Call me a romantic racer...

Probably best to set 5th for uphill straights and 6th for fastest.

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 31 May 2013 - 12:44.


#44 Jovanotti

Jovanotti
  • Member

  • 2,796 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 01 June 2013 - 15:16

PS Jova, I think you need to add a 'powerboard' with all times combined :) Interesting to see how close the cars are given the difference in engine and chassis :)

Added the Powerboard, with colour codes so it gives a better overview  ;)

#45 Ristin

Ristin
  • Member

  • 36 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 02 June 2013 - 18:39

@Jovanotti
Please take note of my time posted in post #35.

I know that it is not the best time in the world and it won't even gain me one position on your board, but nonetheless I'm a little bit proud of it. :wave:
Ristin

Edited by Ristin, 02 June 2013 - 18:40.


#46 DanardiF1

DanardiF1
  • Member

  • 6,469 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 02 June 2013 - 23:28

@Jovanotti
Please take note of my time posted in post #35.

I know that it is not the best time in the world and it won't even gain me one position on your board, but nonetheless I'm a little bit proud of it. :wave:
Ristin


As you should be! It's not just a competition between site members, it's a personal challenge.

#47 Jovanotti

Jovanotti
  • Member

  • 2,796 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 03 June 2013 - 06:47

@Jovanotti
Please take note of my time posted in post #35.

I know that it is not the best time in the world and it won't even gain me one position on your board, but nonetheless I'm a little bit proud of it. :wave:
Ristin

Sorry I must have missed that, it's added now :)

#48 Tenmantaylor

Tenmantaylor
  • Member

  • 8,223 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 03 June 2013 - 09:26

Added the Powerboard, with colour codes so it gives a better overview ;)


:up:

It's actually amazing how the average (or median?) time for each car between all drivers is almost identical :eek:

Posted Image

Ps I think you got the order of your M5 lap wrong on the powerboard, should be 1 place down.

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 03 June 2013 - 12:35.


#49 baddog

baddog
  • Member

  • 23,261 posts
  • Joined: June 99

Posted 08 June 2013 - 23:37

If we do another one of these can we use a, frankly, SHORTER track?

I get quite short play sessions at the moment, and 3 laps of that monster isnt even worth doing!

#50 Jovanotti

Jovanotti
  • Member

  • 2,796 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 11 June 2013 - 07:32

If we do another one of these can we use a, frankly, SHORTER track?

I get quite short play sessions at the moment, and 3 laps of that monster isnt even worth doing!

Yeah it has also crossed my mind. The worst thing is when you've done a good lap and somehow manage to bin it in the last chicane, that's 7 minutes of hard work down the drain...

Feel free to open a new challenge on a shorter track of your choice ;)