146 replies to this topic

[Frank Tuesday]

I feel that you're missing out on a richer F1 experience if you consider losing those sorts of guys as "no great loss". I'd rather have a grid full of those chaps than the Vettels and Alonsos of this world tbh.

I think you'll find that some of my favorite drivers fall into that category. If those drivers had short careers, I would consider it a loss. All of the drivers I listed had long careers and showed that they were very good drivers even if they weren't (IMHO) great drivers. Everyone's career comes to an end. Someone who has had a long career and achieved multiple victories, and maybe a championship, is leaving better off than most. They need to leave at some point to open positions for young drivers that may be greats. Kobayashi is a good example. He showed a lot of speed, which may or may not have translated into greatness. Unfortunately, it looks like we won't ever know. To me, not finding the true potential of a driver like Kobayashi is a much greater loss than Webber not having a 13th season.

[seahawk]

Difference between Webber and Button (for instance) though, is that when Button had his chance to take, he had Rubens Barrichello as a team mate. When Webber had his chance, he had Vettel.

So does this make Webber more like Barrichello?

[EthanM]

So does this make Webber more like Barrichello?

it makes Webber more like Coulthard, season after season waiting for it to be "his year" while his more talented teammate delivered.

[yoyogetfunky]

+1

On his day he can be brilliant but just too inconsistent overall.

Those Monaco wins, domination, command respect!

it makes Webber more like Coulthard, season after season waiting for it to be "his year" while his more talented teammate delivered.

Id put DC a lot lower than Webber. When have you ever seen DC do the kind of overtakings Webber has done over the past few years?

I hope Webber stays in F1, though I dont think its a good idea to stay at Red Bull.

[P123]

Id put DC a lot lower than Webber. When have you ever seen DC do the kind of overtakings Webber has done over the past few years?

In terms of results and performances they are very similar. Fast enough to be in one of the best teams, occassionally fast enough to be the best on track, but not consistantly fast enough to deliver every weekend and generally overshadowed by their teammates (no shame in that from Hakkinen/ Raikonen/ Vettel). You mention overtakes, which is probably more down to respective style (and JEV disagrees with you ). DC did patiently follow Bernoldi for 40-odd laps at Monaco afterall, although he was capable of some incisive moves. DC a lot lower than Webber- I disagree.

[Spamilton]

He should ended F1 in 2012 to make room for Lewis in 2013.

[DILLIGAF]

You cannot hang ups and downs of Webber's career on Vettel, regardless how hard you try. Webber is constructor of his own destiny, and nothing will mask that. I do not want to go back to Turkey, which has been in here raised (again) several times, but based on totality of the scene that followed, I strongly suspect that Webber was probably expected to yield (for some reasons), he hasn't, consequently one thing led to another, and until from inside puts this story straight, there is no point to blame aimlessly Vettel alone. Webber is a red neck, as proven on several occasions, last time in Maly this year after race, don't make mistake about that, and perception of him as personification of an angel who is always oppressed by his teammate and a team might be very misleading. My confidence in his all the time present innocence is really on ice.

A redneck? That's a new one from you Sakae. Do you even know what the term means? Your Webber hate is sinking to new lows.

[yoyogetfunky]

In terms of results and performances they are very similar. Fast enough to be in one of the best teams, occassionally fast enough to be the best on track, but not consistantly fast enough to deliver every weekend and generally overshadowed by their teammates (no shame in that from Hakkinen/ Raikonen/ Vettel). You mention overtakes, which is probably more down to respective style (and JEV disagrees with you ;) ). DC did patiently follow Bernoldi for 40-odd laps at Monaco afterall, although he was capable of some incisive moves. DC a lot lower than Webber- I disagree.

Fair enough mate, good points you make for sure, but i still think dc was never a match for hakkinen. Webber, on his day, is one for Vettel imo.

Maybe its age, too. Dc best days were a long time ago, while webber still gives plenty to cheer about. Spa on Alonso was a move id never, ever seen dc do.

[Eff One 2002]

+1

On his day he can be brilliant but just too inconsistent overall.

Yep, that accurately sums up Webber's career. As to the topic at hand, there's nothing on any site that's credible anywhere suggesting that Webber is indeed retiring from F1 at the end of this year and he has openly dismissed the rumours so I'll believe it when it's actually confirmed...

Edited by Eff One 2002, 08 May 2013 - 21:03.

[TheThirdTenor1]

Fair enough mate, good points you make for sure, but i still think dc was never a match for hakkinen. Webber, on his day, is one for Vettel imo.

Maybe its age, too. Dc best days were a long time ago, while webber still gives plenty to cheer about. Spa on Alonso was a move id never, ever seen dc do.

Well DC did actually manage to beat Hakkinen over a season (twice), pushed him hard in 96, and was pushing him hard in 00 before fading quite badly. There were plenty of times where he did get the better of Hakkinen in races.

DC also pulled off some good moves in his time (Malaysia 99 on Schumacher and Magny Cours 00 on Schumacher again).

[ebc]

Webber has had a great career, 9 wins so far, title contender and top 3/4 qualifier in the world right now. If Vettel had gone to Mclaren in 08 when he had the offer, Webber would probably be a double world champion.

I would say he was on another level to DC, the difference in pace between them was massive when teammates, much bigger than Mikas advantage over DC in qualifying. In fact if you look at Webbers qualy advantage over DC it is much more impressive than Hakkinens which begs the question, how fast is Vettel?

[Sakae]

Webber has had a great career, 9 wins so far, title contender and top 3/4 qualifier in the world right now. If Vettel had gone to Mclaren in 08 when he had the offer, Webber would probably be a double world champion.

I would say he was on another level to DC, the difference in pace between them was massive when teammates, much bigger than Mikas advantage over DC in qualifying. In fact if you look at Webbers qualy advantage over DC it is much more impressive than Hakkinens which begs the question, how fast is Vettel?

I would say enough for three (3) WDC(s).

[v@sh]

Webber has had a great career, 9 wins so far, title contender and top 3/4 qualifier in the world right now. If Vettel had gone to Mclaren in 08 when he had the offer, Webber would probably be a double world champion.

I would say he was on another level to DC, the difference in pace between them was massive when teammates, much bigger than Mikas advantage over DC in qualifying. In fact if you look at Webbers qualy advantage over DC it is much more impressive than Hakkinens which begs the question, how fast is Vettel?

Mind you, different regulations. These tires these days suit Vettel to a tee whereas I think Webber was a faster driver in Bridgestone/re-fueling regs. Taking nothing away from Vettel is still brilliant qualifier but only a tenth or so quicker than Webber IMO even if the stats are skewed in previous years generally they would be within a tenth of each other unless it was a Tilke track that Webber was rubbish at e.g. Valencia/Singapore/Abu Dhabi/Bahrain

[repcobrabham]

so i'm the only one who wants to see MW have a crack at indycar and win at the brickyard before going to porsche?

you can drive sports cars - and win at le mans - well into your 40s, endurance driving rewards experience more than the frenetic nature of F1.

Just like Spa was totally in Fernando's control. But you don't hear people constantly bringing it up to accuse Fernando of choking.

It's not just about the points. It's about momentum. Had Mark won Turkey he would have won three in a row and his momentum would have been incredible. But instead Vettel smashed into him, they gift-wrapped the McLarens a 1-2 finish, and Mark's momentum went up in a puff of smoke - and Red Bull pointed the finger at him. Vettel's psychology at the time of Turkey would have been very interesting.

please stop - you're the one who lets trolls like sakae call MW fans a bunch of whiners. i like to think this thread (mostly) proves otherwise.

[karne]

so i'm the only one who wants to see MW have a crack at indycar and win at the brickyard before going to porsche?

Maybe. I don't think I want Mark in Indycar. It's still a lot more dangerous than other racing series.

[yoyogetfunky]

Webber has had a great career, 9 wins so far, title contender and top 3/4 qualifier in the world right now. If Vettel had gone to Mclaren in 08 when he had the offer, Webber would probably be a double world champion.

I would say he was on another level to DC, the difference in pace between them was massive when teammates, much bigger than Mikas advantage over DC in qualifying. In fact if you look at Webbers qualy advantage over DC it is much more impressive than Hakkinens which begs the question, how fast is Vettel?

[BRG]

I would say he was on another level to DC, the difference in pace between them was massive when teammates

Like in 2007, you mean?

[ashley313]

Nissan (which is pretty much Renault, Infiniti) is supposed to have a 2015 LMP1 effort no? Perhaps Mark sticks around another year to help RBR through the transition to the new powerplants/rules...when consistency within the team is most important...and see if maybe the driving style required to get the most out of the new cars suits him. If no great hope emerges, he leaves to lead that Nissan team. Funny thing is..that Nissan team will probably be stacked with their young GT Academy stars and Mark could end up in a Seb-type situation all over again. Anyway, it's a thought.

[ebc]

Like in 2007, you mean?

Yes, DC ahead on points but Webber well on top on speed with his usual bad luck costing him good points.

[BRG]

Yes, DC ahead on points but Webber well on top on speed with his usual bad luck costing him good points.

Well, points make prizes, but a quick review of results show that Weber had 5 mechanical retirements to DC's 4, which hardly constitutes a major run of bad luck compared to your teammate. So the real facts of the matter are that DC beat Weber fair and square.

Oh, but the myth says that DC NEVER beat his teammates doesn't it? Apart from all of them of course...

I see these two drivers as fairly similar. Neither was really WDC material. Both could win on the right day but both were too inconsistent to really shine. Competent #2s but not really any more than that.

[ebc]

Well, points make prizes, but a quick review of results show that Weber had 5 mechanical retirements to DC's 4, which hardly constitutes a major run of bad luck compared to your teammate. So the real facts of the matter are that DC beat Weber fair and square.

Oh, but the myth says that DC NEVER beat his teammates doesn't it? Apart from all of them of course...

I see these two drivers as fairly similar. Neither was really WDC material. Both could win on the right day but both were too inconsistent to really shine. Competent #2s but not really any more than that.

Stats only tell half the story, both had a similar number of retirements but while DCs tended to come when he was running out of the points anyway, Webbers came when he was very competitive like Japan when he had a chance to win and Vettel took him out or when he was running 4th in Brazil. I think Webber could have become champion if he did not have such a strong teammate in Vettel.

There are plenty of drivers who got their chance in a top car without a top class teammate and took the title such as Button who had Barrichello and Hill who had a rookie Villeneuve, but that doesn't make them better than Webber in my opinion.

[JaredS]

Stats only tell half the story, both had a similar number of retirements but while DCs tended to come when he was running out of the points anyway, Webbers came when he was very competitive like Japan when he had a chance to win and Vettel took him out or when he was running 4th in Brazil. I think Webber could have become champion if he did not have such a strong teammate in Vettel.

There are plenty of drivers who got their chance in a top car without a top class teammate and took the title such as Button who had Barrichello and Hill who had a rookie Villeneuve, but that doesn't make them better than Webber in my opinion.

His point still stands though. Webber is not what one would think of as WDC material. Unbeatable on his day but much too inconsistent. I wouldn't even put him in the same ballpark as Button. Button might struggle with qualifying but he's very consistent, it's one his great strengths to consistently pull out decent finishes with strong race pace.

Even in ultra dominant RBR and even if instead of Seb as a team mate he had an easy patsy, Webber still isn't going to win the first 6 races in dominant and consistent fashion, in my opinion. Sometimes Mark finds an amazing form and is literally unbeatable. I'll always remember Nurburgring 2009 where he won the race and beat Seb, even after receiving a drive through penalty (well deserved penalty and well deserved win!). But that kind of form is few and far between.

[ebc]

His point still stands though. Webber is not what one would think of as WDC material. Unbeatable on his day but much too inconsistent. I wouldn't even put him in the same ballpark as Button. Button might struggle with qualifying but he's very consistent, it's one his great strengths to consistently pull out decent finishes with strong race pace.

Even in ultra dominant RBR and even if instead of Seb as a team mate he had an easy patsy, Webber still isn't going to win the first 6 races in dominant and consistent fashion, in my opinion. Sometimes Mark finds an amazing form and is literally unbeatable. I'll always remember Nurburgring 2009 where he won the race and beat Seb, even after receiving a drive through penalty (well deserved penalty and well deserved win!). But that kind of form is few and far between.

I don't think Webber is on the top level and would certainly need things to fall his way, but I do feel in the right circumstances he could have been a champion in a similar fashion to Button. Jenson Button is not what i would class a consistent driver, probably the least consistent of the top guys, just look at last season results in the first 10 races as an example 1,14,2,18,9,16,16,8,2,5. Only twice in my opinion has he performed throughout the season at a high level and that was 2011 and 2004 all the other seasons he was up and down. How any driver can be so good one week and so bad the next i don't know, Webber is inconsistent for sure but Button is even worse on that score.

Not many thought Jenson would be a champion until he had that Brawn car, sure he looked good in 2000 but a lot of rookies are hyped up like is Bianchi now. Button got a great car with a relatively weak teammate especially on the mental side in Barrichello. The top drivers of the time were all in uncompetitive cars, Alonso at Renault, Hamilton at McLaren and Raikkonen at Ferrari. His only rivals were Vettel who was only 21 at the outset and never even considered that he would be fighting for the title until half way through the season and Webber who had a very strong and fast Vettel to beat aswell as poor reliability. Vettel was too young to use what he had to its full potential and that car was not as fast or reliable as the Brawn anyway and Webber only finished in the points 10 times out of 17 through various incidents and reliability issues.

I don't particularly like Webber but I always thought him a great talent who found himself in the right car at the wrong time whilst Button found himself in the right car at the right time. I think both are of a similar level but Button will always be rated higher because he is a champion.

[Kingshark]

Webber's career really didn't get underway until 2009. Which is a shame, because by that time he was already 33. Mark Webber from 2006 at the age of 30, in the prime of his career, would have been great to see in the Red Bull, and on how far he could have pushed Vettel. Too bad he spend the prime years of his career in bad cars. However, with 9 wins and one legit WDC challenge (2010) to his name, at least he can retire with a career he can be proud of.

[garoidb]

I don't think Webber is on the top level and would certainly need things to fall his way, but I do feel in the right circumstances he could have been a champion in a similar fashion to Button.

I thought I would repost this post of mine from an earlier thread, elaborating on your point a little.

People seem to be associating being "WDC material" with being a potential multiple WDC. That is a level higher, in my opinion. There are several drivers capable of winning the WDC in the right circumstances, some of whom have done so (e.g. Button). Being a regular contender, such that more than one title is likely, is a different ball game.

To illustrate, Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton and Raikkonen have all been in contention multiple times. Button, Massa and Webber have been in serious contention only once.

Also, while Button may have been overhyped in 2000, by the end of 2008 he was probably under-rated. Perhaps, now that he has had seasons in moderately to highly competitive cars, his true level can finally be assessed.

[JaredS]

Webber's career really didn't get underway until 2009. Which is a shame, because by that time he was already 33. Mark Webber from 2006 at the age of 30, in the prime of his career, would have been great to see in the Red Bull, and on how far he could have pushed Vettel. Too bad he spend the prime years of his career in bad cars. However, with 9 wins and one legit WDC challenge (2010) to his name, at least he can retire with a career he can be proud of.

[FPV GTHO]

Autosport has an article highlighting 5 of the next 6 tracks Webber has won at, with the 6th being Montreal which he hasn't been terrible at.

If he's going to make a stake for a seat next year, now is the time.

[MortenF1]

I would say he was on another level to DC, the difference in pace between them was massive when teammates, much bigger than Mikas advantage over DC in qualifying. In fact if you look at Webbers qualy advantage over DC it is much more impressive than Hakkinens which begs the question, how fast is Vettel?

Absolutely not on another level to DC. The two are of very similar calibre. It's also unfair on DC that '08 comes into this, as a supposed good basis for comparison, 'cause it's not. How much was DC really in it that year? Atleast in the second half I think he wasn't very motivated generally, and only found the glow and desire now and then.

Looking at '07, a season where I think DC performed really well, represents a good platform for comparing Webber and DC. Looking at the differentials between them in qualifying it came out at just over a tenth in Webber's favour, and it was also said that the intra team review had DC's underlying race-pace a similar amount faster.

On overtakings; DC has had so many memorable ones, two has been mentioned, but there's also going around Barrichello on the outside through Becketts (in the damp too, wasn't it?) and the one on Schumacher in a wet Brazilian GP in '01. I could mention many more, but these are probably the most "tabloid" ones, and the ones that should be on the list.

If I were to pick between the DC of '01 or '02, and between the Webber of '06 or '10, I'd pick DC. If I were to pick one of them from their careers overall, I would need a day or two to think about it.
Very comparable drivers, and I hope Webber continues in F1 next year.

[Kelateboy]

I think Webber could have become champion if he did not have such a strong teammate in Vettel.

Agreed, especially in 2010.

[karne]

Autosport has an article highlighting 5 of the next 6 tracks Webber has won at, with the 6th being Montreal which he hasn't been terrible at.

If he's going to make a stake for a seat next year, now is the time.

Well I would certainly not disagree with him winning 5 of the next six races.;)

[MarileneRiddle]

Absolutely not on another level to DC. The two are of very similar calibre. It's also unfair on DC that '08 comes into this, as a supposed good basis for comparison, 'cause it's not. How much was DC really in it that year? Atleast in the second half I think he wasn't very motivated generally, and only found the glow and desire now and then.

Looking at '07, a season where I think DC performed really well, represents a good platform for comparing Webber and DC. Looking at the differentials between them in qualifying it came out at just over a tenth in Webber's favour, and it was also said that the intra team review had DC's underlying race-pace a similar amount faster.

On overtakings; DC has had so many memorable ones, two has been mentioned, but there's also going around Barrichello on the outside through Becketts (in the damp too, wasn't it?) and the one on Schumacher in a wet Brazilian GP in '01. I could mention many more, but these are probably the most "tabloid" ones, and the ones that should be on the list.

If I were to pick between the DC of '01 or '02, and between the Webber of '06 or '10, I'd pick DC. If I were to pick one of them from their careers overall, I would need a day or two to think about it.
Very comparable drivers, and I hope Webber continues in F1 next year.

I second your opinion on DC. Just because DC has been very candid on him not being on Schumacher/Hakkinen's level overall does not make him a so-so driver. Just like Webber, I fully believe that a DC in his prime can win races and challenge for the championship. It is just unfortunate he never had the luck to win the WDC.

[krapmeister]

Autosport has an article highlighting 5 of the next 6 tracks Webber has won at, with the 6th being Montreal which he hasn't been terrible at.

If he's going to make a stake for a seat next year, now is the time.

Qualifying 8th with Vettel 3rd isn't a good start then...

[krea]

Qualifying 8th with Vettel 3rd isn't a good start then...

It isn't the first time or?

No idea how people can think that Webber as lead driver for Lotus could be a good idea.

[HP]

Webber's career really didn't get underway until 2009. Which is a shame, because by that time he was already 33. Mark Webber from 2006 at the age of 30, in the prime of his career, would have been great to see in the Red Bull, and on how far he could have pushed Vettel. Too bad he spend the prime years of his career in bad cars. However, with 9 wins and one legit WDC challenge (2010) to his name, at least he can retire with a career he can be proud of.

Well Webber himself said he was too loyal to Williams. He admitted later he should have left Williams much earlier. He isn't the only one to make bad career decisions tough.

I don't know what to make of his 2 last years. It is sound to stay with a team winning WDC and WCC, but he also came across as if he's resigned not to be able to beat Vettel over a season, evven though he would like to do so. In his position I would have left the team 2 years ago. His career would have looked better, as the last 2 seasons did nothing than enhance his reputation as a solid #2. I do think that Webber should have quit earlier. I think I understand Webber well enough to say that his fighting spirit (or his pride?) was kindled back to full force in 2010, but to fight a battle that one cannot win seems IMO a waste of time. Might not be pretty to admit that to oneself, especially when being highly competitive. However he is still young enough to make a successful career in something else and in the long run that matters more. After all Webber isn't a household name, and as such he cannot expect to find sponsors just because of his name that will finance him during his entire life. Better to look for new pastures then.

[Meanbeakin]

Well Webber himself said he was too loyal to Williams. He admitted later he should have left Williams much earlier. He isn't the only one to make bad career decisions tough.

I don't know what to make of his 2 last years. It is sound to stay with a team winning WDC and WCC, but he also came across as if he's resigned not to be able to beat Vettel over a season, evven though he would like to do so. In his position I would have left the team 2 years ago. His career would have looked better, as the last 2 seasons did nothing than enhance his reputation as a solid #2. I do think that Webber should have quit earlier. I think I understand Webber well enough to say that his fighting spirit (or his pride?) was kindled back to full force in 2010, but to fight a battle that one cannot win seems IMO a waste of time. Might not be pretty to admit that to oneself, especially when being highly competitive. However he is still young enough to make a successful career in something else and in the long run that matters more. After all Webber isn't a household name, and as such he cannot expect to find sponsors just because of his name that will finance him during his entire life. Better to look for new pastures then.

By leaving two years ago he would have missed out on 3 victories (Including 1 at Monaco). You really think you'd be successful telling a driver they should regret that?

[Ian G]

By leaving two years ago he would have missed out on 3 victories (Including 1 at Monaco). You really think you'd be successful telling a driver they should regret that?

...not to mention his share of the £80+ Mill. RB received for the 2 WCC's.

I think there is a story to his late & poor final Quali run.

[Ragingjamaican]

Well Webber himself said he was too loyal to Williams. He admitted later he should have left Williams much earlier. He isn't the only one to make bad career decisions tough.

He was only there for 2 seasons.

[Ragingjamaican]

I do think it's time for Webber to go, he's 36, and he's getting beat on a consistent basis, his stock has fallen, not sure if a team would risk him in the team for a season, maybe Williams.

Before Red Bull the only things I can remember from Webber, was his first race, his Jaguar qualfiyings, and that's about it.

Never struck me as a top tier driver, I wouldn't compare him with Coulthard, the latter had notable performances before getting into the 1998 car, and lost two of the first wins of the McLaren WEST era to Hakkinen due to unfortunate circumstances, and it went downhill from there.

I think he has been a little unlucky with the broken leg in 2009, maybe could have finished ahead of Vettel. 2010 was of course his best season, but Vettel's reliability issues and amatueristic mistakes made it look better than what it actually was.

If he joined Renault in 2005, things maybe could have been different, but then you could say the same if about Trulli if Flavio didn't have a bust up with him.

Edited by Ragingjamaican, 12 May 2013 - 00:45.

[HP]

...not to mention his share of the £80+ Mill. RB received for the 2 WCC's.

I think there is a story to his late & poor final Quali run.

I know about the money. But if he is to build a successful career afterwards, then that should have been peanuts. Plus really, you suggests that he simply continues at RBR because of the money. Now that drags reputation down. Not helpful in the long run.

[HP]

By leaving two years ago he would have missed out on 3 victories (Including 1 at Monaco). You really think you'd be successful telling a driver they should regret that?

In case you missed it. Alan Jones said after Korea 2010 that Webber threw away his best and only chance at winning the WDC. So might want to put your argument up with him. I'm sure he knows better than we both.

Put into context, what did his teammate won during these years? It was surely necessary for Webber to have gotten these victories, but when you look at the big picture, he just established himself as I already said, as being a solid #2 driver. Sometimes we need to step back and look at the big picture.

I just attended an obituary of a leader that I worked with until his sudden death. It was a moving time, but as I reflected on it, I noticed that under his leadership we achieved a few things. But those things that were most important to our organization we didn't achieve under his leadership. Quite strange, he surely was a great guy to be with, and nice feeling about the things we accomplished. But that clearly thought me a lesson about perceptions of success.

Put that into the context of Webber. His mission is to win at least one championship. While his teammate did it 3 times in a row, Mark failed every time. While he his has won some battles he always lost the war. Still Webber stumbles on. Maybe a hard way to put it, but maybe a healthy wake up call? I still recall a line form Bob from the Incredibles movie. "They find new ways to celebrate mediocracy." I used to say the same about DC and Barrichello and it makes me sad when people continue to throw the same excuses for other drivers.

I'm used to get stick from fans from DC, RB and MW and others. But I suggest that we measure any drivers success against that of his teammate. Doing that it should be obvious why I'd tell Webber to go out as quickly as possible.

And BTW Winning Monaco isn't what it used to be. The reason is at least 2-fold. Back when winning Monaco was truly an accomplishment was when the race was a stand alone. That is long long time back, predates modern F1. And if you read about the significance of Monaco for F1 in the last few years, then it's not because of the racing. There is only one reason why Monaco is still in the calendar, and the reason is not racing. At best winning these days in Monaco means you are specialist of that race track. But again if that's all, and you are not good enough for other tracks, what's the value of it? It's 2013 after all, where Monaco is one of 19 races.

[Wander]

Absolutely not on another level to DC. The two are of very similar calibre. It's also unfair on DC that '08 comes into this, as a supposed good basis for comparison, 'cause it's not. How much was DC really in it that year? Atleast in the second half I think he wasn't very motivated generally, and only found the glow and desire now and then.

Looking at '07, a season where I think DC performed really well, represents a good platform for comparing Webber and DC. Looking at the differentials between them in qualifying it came out at just over a tenth in Webber's favour, and it was also said that the intra team review had DC's underlying race-pace a similar amount faster.

On overtakings; DC has had so many memorable ones, two has been mentioned, but there's also going around Barrichello on the outside through Becketts (in the damp too, wasn't it?) and the one on Schumacher in a wet Brazilian GP in '01. I could mention many more, but these are probably the most "tabloid" ones, and the ones that should be on the list.

If I were to pick between the DC of '01 or '02, and between the Webber of '06 or '10, I'd pick DC. If I were to pick one of them from their careers overall, I would need a day or two to think about it.
Very comparable drivers, and I hope Webber continues in F1 next year.

I agree with this. Mark Webber was a "DC of his generation". A decent driver, but not quite good enough to be a champion. I think it's probably the right time for him to go. Seeing him as the clear number 2 driver (getting his ass kicked by Vettel) for the 3rd season in a row just isn't very exciting.

Edited by Wander, 12 May 2013 - 02:17.

[DILLIGAF]

Webber's career really didn't get underway until 2009. Which is a shame, because by that time he was already 33. Mark Webber from 2006 at the age of 30, in the prime of his career, would have been great to see in the Red Bull, and on how far he could have pushed Vettel. Too bad he spend the prime years of his career in bad cars. However, with 9 wins and one legit WDC challenge (2010) to his name, at least he can retire with a career he can be proud of.

[Coops3]

It's not been a great start to the season so far for Mark in terms of beating his team mate. Monaco will kick start his season though I reckon.

I don't think he's made an agreement to leave F1 just yet, but I do think this season will be crucial in terms of what he decides to do.

Edited by Coops3, 12 May 2013 - 22:33.

[Lennat]

He is still a good F1 driver. However, if he wants to stay he should get out of Red Bull. He won't win the championship with Vettel as his team mate, simply because Vettel is too good. His best bet would be Lotus, especially if Kimi left. But even if he didn't, I do not rate Kimi as highly as Vettel (Vettel would certainly never be beaten by Massa over a season), so he would still have a better chance of mounting another WDC challenge there. The alternative is to spend a year or two in Maranello as a number two (which might actually be more attractive than being beaten by Vettel again) or go to a midfield team (but I can't see that happening).

My own conclusion: He probably doesn't want to get beaten by Vettel AGAIN, and he isn't likely to wanna be Alonso's lapdog either. Lotus could be an alternative, but it's not even a given he would be offered a seat. He isn't likely to want to go backwards after five years of driving the best car. It would make much more sense to go to Le Mans if Porsche have actually offered him a seat. There is no better place to go after F1 than a proper LMP1 factory seat. Indycar is more of a step down than a step sideways, and DTM isn't crap but slower and less interesting. He did well in sports cars before and would bring credibility to Porsche's Le Mans effort. It all makes sense.

[Lee Nicolle]

His point still stands though. Webber is not what one would think of as WDC material. Unbeatable on his day but much too inconsistent. I wouldn't even put him in the same ballpark as Button. Button might struggle with qualifying but he's very consistent, it's one his great strengths to consistently pull out decent finishes with strong race pace.

Even in ultra dominant RBR and even if instead of Seb as a team mate he had an easy patsy, Webber still isn't going to win the first 6 races in dominant and consistent fashion, in my opinion. Sometimes Mark finds an amazing form and is literally unbeatable. I'll always remember Nurburgring 2009 where he won the race and beat Seb, even after receiving a drive through penalty (well deserved penalty and well deserved win!). But that kind of form is few and far between.

While I tend to agree Mark probably should have won the championship. Except for team bias and his biffing and barging teammate. Remember bits taken from his car for Vettels, KERS that did not work, Vettel punching him off track and etc etc. Very hard to keep focused when all that crap is happening.

Watching the pre race interview I get the impression that Mark has probably lost some interest as the ludicrous tyre situation. It is not racing but 'entertainment' as the tyre situation precludes true racing.

As for Jensen, all the hoo ha that Lu Lu would blow him away really never happened. Hamilton is faster but Jensen proved using your brain is more important and equalled or beat him. Jensen was a worthy champion, in an underfunded team that year too.

Edited by Lee Nicolle, 13 May 2013 - 00:00.

[bourbon]

While I tend to agree Mark probably should have won the championship. Except for team bias and his biffing and barging teammate. Remember bits taken from his car for Vettels, KERS that did not work, Vettel punching him off track and etc etc. Very hard to keep focused when all that crap is happening.

Watching the pre race interview I get the impression that Mark has probably lost some interest as the ludicrous tyre situation. It is not racing but 'entertainment' as the tyre situation precludes true racing.

Biffing and Barging? What does that mean in English?

Mark was 99% of his own problem. Mark seemed to believe that his mind games would throw Seb off - and they did have a negative impact on his performance for a very short period, but after that, it was like honing a golden sword from a cauldron of fire and brimstone. Seb's focus, determination, and mental aplomb was strengthened by all that mess Mark stirred up and it is still evident today whenever the press goes hog wild in a negative 'oh! a reason to hate on the champ' campaign. Seriously, if people can't see that the press stood behind Mark and condemned team orders to hell in Silverstone, then stood behind Mark and lauded them to the heavens after Malaysia, then they are not looking.

That is what Seb had to and still has to deal with on occassion - and he does a bang up job of it and does not allow it to affect his racing. That is what keeps the boat afloat today because while it is Mark's wont to run to the press, I think he is starting to realize it is a wasted effort that hurts the team more than it does the Webber v. Vettel dynamic.

In any case, I would not be able to say if that was enough reason for Mark to quit, either from his point of view or the team's, but I do know that his big issues in F1 with Red Bull Racing have been largely self initiated, imo.

[mnmracer]

While I tend to agree Mark probably should have won the championship. Except for team bias and his biffing and barging teammate. Remember bits taken from his car for Vettels, KERS that did not work, Vettel punching him off track and etc etc. Very hard to keep focused when all that crap is happening.

If those three examples are all there are, you should not add "and etc etc". I know you want to make it look bad and horrible, but it really isn't.
The fact that mechanical failures affected even more than Webber, and from race 1, and all you're left with is one crash, and one case where the team's non-failed wing was given to the driver that liked it best.