87 replies to this topic

[study]

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/107362

In light of the above news item, is it time for Whitmarsh to go?

And if he does, who should replace him?

Sam
Brawn
Ron

Some unknown from GP2?


And how do you view Whitmarshs time in charge?

Edited by Buttoneer, 11 May 2013 - 19:34.

[rmpugh]

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/107362

In light of the above news item, is it time for Whitmarsh to go?

And if he does, who should replace him?

Sam
Brawn
Ron

Some unknown from GP2?


And how do you view Whitmarshs time in charge?

Why is F1 so fickle? Whitmarsh was in charge of the team that was perhaps the fastest at the end of last season, yet after 4 races of teething problems is being asked if he should resign!! It seems that some people subscribe to the Chelsea FC school of management thinking.

[TheThirdTenor1]

I think he's done a pretty good job. His results are 3rd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd - only Red Bull have done better in this time period.

This season has started badly and i'm surprised they did not make a bigger gain through their updates this weekend. However, Mclaren have been through far worse when RD was in charge so i don't think he should be fired.

[Disgrace]

Why is F1 so fickle? Whitmarsh was in charge of the team that was perhaps the fastest at the end of last season, yet after 4 races of teething problems is being asked if he should resign!! It seems that some people subscribe to the Chelsea FC school of management thinking.

Interestingly, they were the fastest at the beginning of last season too. Yet, no title. In that context, it's not as positive.

Edited by Disgrace, 11 May 2013 - 19:05.

[l8apex]

Yes he should be gone. Too many slow cars with issues. When they have a fast car they throw away the championship with sloppy pit work.

He also mismanaged things with Lewis and they lost him.

Bring back Ron.

[blackmme]

Why is F1 so fickle? Whitmarsh was in charge of the team that was perhaps the fastest at the end of last season, yet after 4 races of teething problems is being asked if he should resign!! It seems that some people subscribe to the Chelsea FC school of management thinking.

Yes they were fastest last year (over the course of the year) and a litany of errors prevented a championship challenge, that is just as bad as the problems this year.

I am a long standing admirer and fan of Mclaren and something is fundamentally wrong perhaps it's not Martin's fault at all and just that the group is now focused on the road cars but I personally don't believe that. Something has to change and the change has to start at the top, sad to say.

Regards Mike

Edited by blackmme, 11 May 2013 - 19:08.

[Ross Stonefeld]

If you replace Martin, how does that fix pitstop problems? How does that fix design problems? I'm not convinced McLaren have a fundamental flaw with the way their team is structured that replacing the guy at the top and reshuffling everyone would cure. And you'd have to reshuffle everyone because Whitmarsh is neither holding the design pen nor the wheelgun.

[Les]

I'm not sure, not yet anyway. Its not been all positive the past few years though and there are valid criticismsI feel, especially how they've again made a big error with their new car and are playing catch up - since it happened in 2009 its a worrying sign.

[muramasa]

No.

Newey and Seb that should be gone!

[Seanspeed]

Unless Mclaren have some genius waiting in the wings, then no. Whitmarsh has been running this team for longer than people think. He's seen them through some very good times. No team is impervious to occasional struggles. Its a tough sport.

[bogi]

Follow the pattern,

http://forums.autosp...p;hl=domenicali

http://forums.autosp...p;hl=domenicali

[CookinFlatSix]

Whitmarsh pointed to the difficult times McLaren has weathered in the past as part of the reasoning for not considering such drastic action.

This is what everyone says, that the team have a mighty history and have overcome many slumps. And that they can out develop everyone over a season and so starting behind is no problem.

What i see is that the team have weathered storms and bounced back because of the dynamism and deal making of one man - Ron.

I cannot see Whitmarsh as someone to make the hard decisions correctly and this is a junction where the team need to be very astute and strong in their decisions rgarding engines, sponsors, drivers wages, engineers wages amongst others.

Whitmarsh is on the board and when he succeeeded Ron as TP grabbed a lot of responsibility in the wake of the Max Mosely Witch hunt that caused Ron to quit and make certain decisions such as concentrating on the automotive business.

Whitmarsh should do the right thing and resign as it appears to be a messy affair to depose him by force as he will know where all the skeletons are etc

And Sam Michael is not ready to take his place

I hope the majority shareholders will see that the best bet is to have Ron back as TP especially if he has served his time as executive chairman of Automotive.

And I hope this thread doesnt attract the usual insult hurling that any appraisal of Mclarens situation attracts from certain members

[DKMoto]

Why?
He doesnt design the cars
He doesnt drive the cars
He doesnt do the pitstops.

I actually like MW. He reminds me of a sneaky snake but I think thats what you need in a sport like F1.

You think you gonna fire him and instantly start winning races?

[2ms]

My opinion is that McL's current problems are Ron's fault more than any single other person's. In particular the destructive pissing match with Mercedes. Would be a shame to lose Whitmarsh as lose him and they'll be losing an asset not a liability.

[MP422]

Why?
He doesnt design the cars
He doesnt drive the cars
He doesnt do the pitstops.

I actually like MW. He reminds me of a sneaky snake but I think thats what you need in a sport like F1.

You think you gonna fire him and instantly start winning races?

Love it. lol. No.

[bogi]

My opinion is that McL's current problems are Ron's fault more than any single other person's. In particular the destructive pissing match with Mercedes. Would be a shame to lose Whitmarsh as lose him and they'll be losing an asset not a liability.

There is no way for them to continue like before, Mercedes wanted to rename McLaren and make only Mercedes GP, Like they did to Brawn GP.

[CookinFlatSix]

My opinion is that McL's current problems are Ron's fault more than any single other person's. In particular the destructive pissing match with Mercedes. Would be a shame to lose Whitmarsh as lose him and they'll be losing an asset not a liability.

You have a major point, the prickly relationship with the FIA was possibly salvaged by Whitmarsh. And Rons handling of the Merc breakup left a lot to be desired.

However Whitmarsh has served his purpose and he is clearly not a rainmaker. This junction is very important for Mclaren and Ron would be more qualified to produce a vision and short term and long term plans for the team. MW IMO would be better back as Operations head. Lets not forget that he became TP by default.

If Rons available then Ron should be back doing what he is good at. Rainmaking

[surbjits]

Too many slow cars with issues.

[Watkins74]

Why?
He doesnt design the cars
He doesnt drive the cars
He doesnt do the pitstops.

I actually like MW. He reminds me of a sneaky snake but I think thats what you need in a sport like F1.

You think you gonna fire him and instantly start winning races?

Because he is in charge and responsible for the people that work for him. That's why.

[DutchQuicksilver]

There's only one who has to leave and that's Sam Michael. My god, he managed to destroy Williams and now he's well on track to do the same with McLaren. I can't believe that guy still has a job in F1. Never understood why McLaren hired him.

[sopa]

Whitmarsh can be many things, but I can't blame him for the loss of Hamilton. He simply wanted a new challenge, nothing to do with Whitmarsh. Same way if Vettel leaves Red Bull one day, he wants a new challenge, not that Horner is a bad guy. Sometimes these changes happen and you are fighting against odds even as a team principal. Even though in theory you are the guy making decisions, sometimes you cannot help.

McLaren is compared to Williams a lot. Did Frank suddenly become incompetent after winning lots of titles? No, just the state of play changed in F1. They lost factory support and car manufacturers became more interested in having their own teams rather than being an engine partner. Did Briatore suddenly become incompetent in 2007 after winning back-to-back titles for Renault?

Now the odds are against McLaren. State of game has turned. Mercedes and Genii Capital have been strongly building up their teams - to the detriment of McLaren. Ferrari has a stronger financial clout too. McLaren wants to become like Ferrari with their car business, but hasn't quite managed it (yet). This is where clearly Ron Dennis is responsible, because it has been his vision. Perhaps it was necessary anyway, because partnership with Mercedes was on borrowed time.

Okay, let's ask this. If there was a so-called competent team principal in place of Whitmarsh, what would he have done or what would he do now? Hamilton wanted a new challenge, Vodafone wants to pull out to save costs (I think). Mercedes wanted its own team. The only option was to sell something or lose some further control it seems. Much like Williams had the same dilemma.

[oldracer1957]

know what? After McLaren is crappy now, I actually want him to stay at McLaren

[CookinFlatSix]

Okay, let's ask this. If there was a so-called competent team principal in place of Whitmarsh, what would he have done or what would he do now?

He wouldnt have put so much faith in Button to the detriment of Lewis

He wouldnt have allowed Button to pull the 'save fuel stunt'

He wouldnt have restructured the whole team around Button

Infact he wouldnt have taken Button instead of Kimi in 2010. There was a reason Button was not rated higher than kimi amongst team bosses and he is finding out why now.

And ofcourse all those with the status quo bias will say 'theres nothing wrong at Mclaren, dont change a thing, everyone goes through 'occasional struggles'
Smarter observers will notice a pattern thats getting worse

Edited by CookinFlatSix, 11 May 2013 - 20:12.

[swerved]

No, and Rons time has passed, let Whitmarsh get on with trying to sort what McLaren are most famous for, and leave Ron to play with his own car set.

[ElDictatore]

You have a major point, the prickly relationship with the FIA was possibly salvaged by Whitmarsh. And Rons handling of the Merc breakup left a lot to be desired.

However Whitmarsh has served his purpose and he is clearly not a rainmaker. This junction is very important for Mclaren and Ron would be more qualified to produce a vision and short term and long term plans for the team. MW IMO would be better back as Operations head. Lets not forget that he became TP by default.

If Rons available then Ron should be back doing what he is good at. Rainmaking

Well let's see what almighty Ron say to that

“Martin has been with McLaren for 23 years. He’s fiercely competitive and ambitious, he has a tremendous brain and a huge appetite for work. And he believes as passionately as
I do in the principles on which we’ve built McLaren over the years. His style is different from mine: I can be overly aggressive, but that’s just me. Under his leadership the team has yet to win a World Championship, but that will come. I may give Martin my opinions, ideas, perspectives, and I think most of the time he takes them as wise counsel. But I avoid coming even remotely close to telling him what to do.”

http://www.motorspor...ith-ron-dennis/

[Ross Stonefeld]

Because he is in charge and responsible for the people that work for him. That's why.

So replace the people that work for him.

[Ragingjamaican]

Ron wasn't exactly stellar himself in that position.

McLaren had several lean years with Ron Dennis at helm, Whitmarsh with McLaren has been consistent until this year.

Unlike the Ron Dennis days, McLaren have rivals that are more competitive than they were back then, especially with the rise of Red Bull, Mercedes becoming a force, Ferrari being Ferrari, and a resurgent Lotus/Renault/Benneton.

Not many are calling for Domenicalli to step down, they've both in charge of the top teams in F1, similar results (bar 2012) and only achieved one title between them.

[ElDictatore]

Whitmarsh can be many things, but I can't blame him for the loss of Hamilton. He simply wanted a new challenge, nothing to do with Whitmarsh. Same way if Vettel leaves Red Bull one day, he wants a new challenge, not that Horner is a bad guy. Sometimes these changes happen and you are fighting against odds even as a team principal. Even though in theory you are the guy making decisions, sometimes you cannot help.

McLaren is compared to Williams a lot. Did Frank suddenly become incompetent after winning lots of titles? No, just the state of play changed in F1. They lost factory support and car manufacturers became more interested in having their own teams rather than being an engine partner. Did Briatore suddenly become incompetent in 2007 after winning back-to-back titles for Renault?

Now the odds are against McLaren. State of game has turned. Mercedes and Genii Capital have been strongly building up their teams - to the detriment of McLaren. Ferrari has a stronger financial clout too. McLaren wants to become like Ferrari with their car business, but hasn't quite managed it (yet). This is where clearly Ron Dennis is responsible, because it has been his vision. Perhaps it was necessary anyway, because partnership with Mercedes was on borrowed time.

Okay, let's ask this. If there was a so-called competent team principal in place of Whitmarsh, what would he have done or what would he do now? Hamilton wanted a new challenge, Vodafone wants to pull out to save costs (I think). Mercedes wanted its own team. The only option was to sell something or lose some further control it seems. Much like Williams had the same dilemma.

So much this. How did people questioned when RD had to search for new engines and sponsors in the mid 90's?
Whitmarsh is a good guy and he was very good to Lewis. He defended him in '11 and didn't make big storys out of the media's crusade against him because of some bullshit story. People tend to forget that.

[oldracer1957]

Yes they were fastest last year (over the course of the year) and a litany of errors prevented a championship challenge, that is just as bad as the problems this year.

Regards Mike

Well... I`ve been a McLaren fan since 1965 and I`ve been through various ups and downs. Now... make no mistake:
- I can forgive a team building a slow car (hey that can happen to anyone ).
- I can even forgive McLaren losing great drivers like Jody Scheckter, Fittipaldi, Gilles Villeneuve, Nikki Lauda, Prost, Senna, Raikonnen, Alonso and Hamilton.
- But what I cant forgive is a team building a decent car and having no top brass driver squeezing the last bit out of the cars potential.
- And what I will NEVER, EVER forgive is a team having the best car and throwing a WD or WCchampionship out of the window through amateurish strategies and especially series and series of botched pitstops.

Edited by oldracer1957, 11 May 2013 - 20:28.

[CookinFlatSix]

Well... I`ve been a McLaren fan since 1965 and I`ve through various ups and downs. Now... make no mistake:
- I can forgive a team building a slow car (hey that can happen to anyone).
- I can even forgive McLaren losing great drivers like Jody Scheckter, Fittipaldi, Gilles Villeneuve, Nikki Lauda, Prost, Senna, Raikonnen, Alonso and Hamilton.
- But what I cant forgive is a team building a decent car and having no top brass driver squeezing the last bit out of the cars potential.
- And what I will NEVER, EVER forgive is a team having the best car and throwing a WD or WCchampionship out of the window through amateurish strategies and especially series and series of botched pitstops.

hear hear!

amateurish mediocre play by the book stuff. like depend on a radar screen to tell you its not going to rain in quali when sticking a head out the window would suggest sending your drivers out just in case

there is no rainmaker at McLaren just middle management going through the motions

[Lelouch]

I don't know but something has to change in McLaren for sure...

[sopa]

He wouldnt have put so much faith in Button to the detriment of Lewis

He wouldnt have allowed Button to pull the 'save fuel stunt'

He wouldnt have restructured the whole team around Button

Infact he wouldnt have taken Button instead of Kimi in 2010. There was a reason Button was not rated higher than kimi amongst team bosses and he is finding out why now.

And ofcourse all those with the status quo bias will say 'theres nothing wrong at Mclaren, dont change a thing, everyone goes through 'occasional struggles'
Smarter observers will notice a pattern thats getting worse

How is the team restructured around Button? I don't get it. Any examples of staff movement or whatever?

Was Kimi really interested in joining McLaren in 2010? Or was he more interested in taking a break?

I don't know some of you are speaking of Button like he is a rubbish backmarker paydriver. Actually in 2010 and 2011 most people praised Whitmarsh for hiring Button, it was viewed as a wise decision. There were no big in-team problems like we had with Vettel-Webber. Whitmarsh was viewed as a genius team principal, who can manage two world champions, two roosters in the henhouse. Oh and I am not sure Kimi would have done better than Button in 2010 and 2011. Or even if he did, by very-very little.

And even if we conjecture Kimi into McLaren, they still would not have Hamilton in 2013, they still would have a crap car in 2013. So that's not a solution.

Edited by sopa, 11 May 2013 - 20:46.

[jjcale]

hear hear!

amateurish mediocre play by the book stuff. like depend on a radar screen to tell you its not going to rain in quali when sticking a head out the window would suggest sending your drivers out just in case

there is no rainmaker at McLaren just middle management going through the motions

This ... and I said it from the get go!

Edited by jjcale, 11 May 2013 - 20:57.

[PARAZAR]

He wouldnt have put so much faith in Button to the detriment of Lewis

He wouldnt have allowed Button to pull the 'save fuel stunt'

He wouldnt have restructured the whole team around Button

Infact he wouldnt have taken Button instead of Kimi in 2010. There was a reason Button was not rated higher than kimi amongst team bosses and he is finding out why now.

And ofcourse all those with the status quo bias will say 'theres nothing wrong at Mclaren, dont change a thing, everyone goes through 'occasional struggles'
Smarter observers will notice a pattern thats getting worse

Smarter observers will also notice a pattern where it looks like your issue is with Button, not Whitmarsh.

[BlackCat]

maybe its just time to change the livery into orange or something

[BoschKurve]

Smarter observers will also notice a pattern where it looks like your issue is with Button, not Whitmarsh.

Button is a stark reminder of the decision-making that exists at McLaren currently. I do like Button and think he is a solid driver, but for a top tier team like McLaren, he is not a number one driver at all. He is however a number one driver on a midfield team. Coincidentally, McLaren's performance at the moment is midfield so...maybe it makes sense to have him as the number one?

[BoschKurve]

And I do think Whitmarsh should go if McLaren is serious about their future in F1. I don't see him as being the guy to run the team. Life isn't fair. The guy running the show gets canned in every day businesses for doing a poor job. Why? It is easier to replace one person than the entire staff of the company. Who should replace him? I would say Ron for the time being until he can find someone else to groom.

[Sakae]

Napoleon Bonaparte

Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake.

Acting in pursuance of this great advise, my recommendation is therefore for Mr. Whitmarsh to carry on with his duties in his usual manner.

[study]

Napoleon Bonaparte
Acting in pursuance of this great advise, my recommendation is therefore for Mr. Whitmarsh to carry on with his duties in his usual manner.

Only cause its entertaining to see what the next "hindsight" moment is.

[Sakae]

Only cause its entertaining to see what the next "hindsight" moment is.

The guy had ample time to leave his footprint on the organization, and he did. Whether you like it or not depends on which side of the fence you are standing.

[Ravenak]

Should Whitmarsh go? No, let him sink this team a bit more, they deserve it.

On a more serious note, I agree with the most common view on this kind of question: it's rarely a manager's fault if the results don't come. It's just like in football: ultimately it's the players who score. In F1, the players are the drivers and the engineers.

Not the team principal.

[Zoetrope]

In F1, the players are the drivers and the engineers.

Not the team principal.

Last year they had arguably the driver of the year and chief engineer that was just recently head hunted by McLaren's rivals. You might have the best pieces, but it is Team Principal's role to put them together.

I have no clear opinion on Whitmarsh, whether he could extract more or not. But management in such a dynamic environment as F1 is crucial. I am more impressed by Ferrari and Red Bull management over last 2,3 years.

[BillBald]

I think the most serious criticism of MW concerns the way in which McLaren fail in their race operations.

McLaren still seem to be working in the same amateurish way as they did a few years ago, whereas all the other teams have raised their game. When McLaren got their last title in 2008, the only serious opposition was a Ferrari team who had lost Ross Brawn and co., and were just as bad as McLaren.

Since then Red Bull have turned into a points-scoring machine, able to recover from disasters such as Abu Dhabi last year and still get good points. Whitmarsh doesn't seem to understand that he needs at least one good strategist who can make sound decisions under pressure, and pit crew who can handle the extreme pressure they are put under. If a guy can't hack it, he has to go. Find him a different job which he's more suited to, I'm not saying you have to fire people.

It's time for MW to show a more ruthless and determined side.

[jrg19]

What has Martin done wrong?

[pdac]

What has Martin done wrong?

What he's done wrong is not getting things right. A strong leader pulls people together when things are going wrong, he identifies what changes need to be made and enacts those changes. McLaren have been faltering over the past few years and I don't see that he's done anything to address that.

[Fastcake]

On a more serious note, I agree with the most common view on this kind of question: it's rarely a manager's fault if the results don't come. It's just like in football: ultimately it's the players who score. In F1, the players are the drivers and the engineers.

Not the team principal.

Exactly. This sort of football fan mentality of blaming the manager for everything without proof has no place in any sport. Next we'll be seeing calls for Brawn's head the next time Mercedes spend four seconds on a pitstop.

[CookinFlatSix]

How is the team restructured around Button? I don't get it. Any examples of staff movement or whatever?

Was Kimi really interested in joining McLaren in 2010? Or was he more interested in taking a break?

I don't know some of you are speaking of Button like he is a rubbish backmarker paydriver. Actually in 2010 and 2011 most people praised Whitmarsh for hiring Button, it was viewed as a wise decision. There were no big in-team problems like we had with Vettel-Webber. Whitmarsh was viewed as a genius team principal, who can manage two world champions, two roosters in the henhouse. Oh and I am not sure Kimi would have done better than Button in 2010 and 2011. Or even if he did, by very-very little.

And even if we conjecture Kimi into McLaren, they still would not have Hamilton in 2013, they still would have a crap car in 2013. So that's not a solution.

Button, for me was never a Mclaren driver that Ron would go for. He was mediocre in midfield for years and was happy to sit there collecting his wage. He wasnt chased before 2009 and got mega lucky with the DD in 2009. He is ofcourse a talented driver and able to produce, but he appears lazy and sneaky. Only able to perform when things are perfect or when there are contract talks in the air.

The bravery of Ron to bring a Hamilton in and let him thrive even with Alonso in the side is the type of thing Mclaren are about. When Ron had to leave and whitmarsh took over, the first mistake he did was looking at Button who on paper appeared to be brilliant, a WDC and British and marketeble, but not a single TP took him seriously for reasons I mentioned above. Everyone knew him from the Williams affair, Frank gave him a chance, bent over backward and gave him a chance to take the seat from Montoya by getting the results in that year. Instead he didnt then got arsey when he was farmed out on loan and stitched Frank by going for a paycheque when Williams needed his commercial side and needed repayment of the faith placed in him.
So even i could see his character then. So he takes the paycheque from a no hope cash rich firm and languishes in midgrid, then got lucky with brawn

And Whitmarsh brings him in and reorganises the engineers etc, removes Lewis' etc all to make JB comfortable. I think he was thinking JB had been overlooked and was a real star.

But what gets me is he takes Hamilton, who had cost Ron a fortune for his bravery and wastes his talent, tells him to learn from button, bigs up button, puts Lewis down to the point Lewis left. Yes lewi speaks highly of him and to be fair he is not evil just utterly weak and allowed himself to be swayed and seduced by a lazy pay cheque driver. And thats where they are now, Whitmarsh will stand or go down with Button - as long as he doesnt take the team with him i dont care

Whitmarsh is not upto the job in a fiercely competitive field as F1 - the results show this - look at the last couple of years, its all 'we can do better' 'we need to optimise' 'not everyone can come first' 'we can only do our best' etc etc he has no vision, he is not a rain maker, hes never even built up his own business, how can he replace guys like Ron and Frank and Bernie, even Eddie jordan who built up from nothing and have strong wills.

He was the only TP who 'recognised the hidden genius' in Button - and Button took the fat paycheque and is laughing all the way to the bank, and they tried to tell Lewis he was equal to JB and should take a paycut

Oh yeah, the rumour is that Ron tried to eject him but has been weakened by the sports car dream and previously the spat with Max who flogged himself into a frenzy over his spite for McLaren and Ron

And before the usual 'status quo' posters start bleating about temporary blips and keeping things as they are - how many of these are Mclaren fans? and not Ferrari groupies happy for Whitmarsh to remove any threat

Finally not so long ago Williams and Mclaren were the power houses running rings around your Ferraris and other manufacturers. Unfortunately time has not been kind and things are tougher. But with Whitmarsh Mclaren have the worst of both worlds - lack of big funds like the old gargistas but also middle management like the car makers

/rant over thank you for reading

[HP]

I forgot how many tines there was this question asked here, but every time I suggest that he should go. But I could as easily say the opposite, because it means other teams will continue to win and that is fine with me.

Seriously. MW suggesting years ago, that Ron Dennis should step aside for him as F1 team boss told me all I needed to know. Withmarsh is very ambitious. That's only good if one can deliver. Some key things that he did for McLaren is sorting out the integration between McL, Merc. That was good. Introducing the matrix. Undecided on that since that system depends on the people in your team. It might work or not. Hiring drivers. He hasn't a great hand on that, when compared to Ron Dennis. Engineering is an interesting topic. Yes, McLaren usually builds good cars capable of winning races, they develop rapidly during season. Just where are trophies to seal those claims? Individual race trophies there are enough. But WDC and WCC's are scarce. And while there are external factors to consider, if McLaren is the team it claims to be it should be able to rise above adversity. Playing the perception game is good and fine, but results have to come,

Something seems amiss, and to me replacing Withmarsh is worth a go, if someone else capable of doing the job is available.

[SerratedEdge]

Before this weekend i thought most of the criticism of Whitmarsh was harsh and uncalled for, but now i think its time for him to go.

The much anticipated upgrades that were supposed to get the car to a competive level have made the car WORSE, the season five races is a write off.

The decision to go for such a radical car was a risky wrong move compounded by not realising they had a turkey of a new car on their hands and reverting to the proven, winning 2012 car which is still quicker than the dog they have even after all the supposed 'improvments' the Barcelona upgrade was supposed to bring.

Forget about Sam Micheal as replacement who was a bobbins team prinicpal at Williams, the man McLaren need is Ross Brawn to give the whole team a shake up.

[BoschKurve]

Button, for me was never a Mclaren driver that Ron would go for. He was mediocre in midfield for years and was happy to sit there collecting his wage. He wasnt chased before 2009 and got mega lucky with the DD in 2009. He is ofcourse a talented driver and able to produce, but he appears lazy and sneaky. Only able to perform when things are perfect or when there are contract talks in the air.

The bravery of Ron to bring a Hamilton in and let him thrive even with Alonso in the side is the type of thing Mclaren are about. When Ron had to leave and whitmarsh took over, the first mistake he did was looking at Button who on paper appeared to be brilliant, a WDC and British and marketeble, but not a single TP took him seriously for reasons I mentioned above. Everyone knew him from the Williams affair, Frank gave him a chance, bent over backward and gave him a chance to take the seat from Montoya by getting the results in that year. Instead he didnt then got arsey when he was farmed out on loan and stitched Frank by going for a paycheque when Williams needed his commercial side and needed repayment of the faith placed in him.
So even i could see his character then. So he takes the paycheque from a no hope cash rich firm and languishes in midgrid, then got lucky with brawn

And Whitmarsh brings him in and reorganises the engineers etc, removes Lewis' etc all to make JB comfortable. I think he was thinking JB had been overlooked and was a real star.

But what gets me is he takes Hamilton, who had cost Ron a fortune for his bravery and wastes his talent, tells him to learn from button, bigs up button, puts Lewis down to the point Lewis left. Yes lewi speaks highly of him and to be fair he is not evil just utterly weak and allowed himself to be swayed and seduced by a lazy pay cheque driver. And thats where they are now, Whitmarsh will stand or go down with Button - as long as he doesnt take the team with him i dont care

Whitmarsh is not upto the job in a fiercely competitive field as F1 - the results show this - look at the last couple of years, its all 'we can do better' 'we need to optimise' 'not everyone can come first' 'we can only do our best' etc etc he has no vision, he is not a rain maker, hes never even built up his own business, how can he replace guys like Ron and Frank and Bernie, even Eddie jordan who built up from nothing and have strong wills.

He was the only TP who 'recognised the hidden genius' in Button - and Button took the fat paycheque and is laughing all the way to the bank, and they tried to tell Lewis he was equal to JB and should take a paycut

Oh yeah, the rumour is that Ron tried to eject him but has been weakened by the sports car dream and previously the spat with Max who flogged himself into a frenzy over his spite for McLaren and Ron

And before the usual 'status quo' posters start bleating about temporary blips and keeping things as they are - how many of these are Mclaren fans? and not Ferrari groupies happy for Whitmarsh to remove any threat

Finally not so long ago Williams and Mclaren were the power houses running rings around your Ferraris and other manufacturers. Unfortunately time has not been kind and things are tougher. But with Whitmarsh Mclaren have the worst of both worlds - lack of big funds like the old gargistas but also middle management like the car makers

/rant over thank you for reading

I'm not a McLaren fan by any means, but if the team is seriously interested in contending, they need to get rid of Whitmarsh.