172 replies to this topic

[03011969]

McLaren's Team Orders in the Spanish GP seemed rather unnecessary. Perez had done a stop more than Button and could easily have passed him under DRS without any damage to tyres for either car.

I guess this, for anybody who still doubted it, puts to bed the idea that McLaren always lets its drivers race. They very clearly do not.

Edited by 3011969, 12 May 2013 - 13:49.

[pdac]

McLaren's Team Orders in the Spanish GP seemed rather unnecessary. Perez had done a stop more than Button and could easily have passed him under DRS without any damage to tyres for either car.

I guess this, for anybody who still doubted it, puts to bed the idea that McLaren always lets its drivers race. They very clearly do not.

[Sakae]

McLaren's Team Orders in the Spanish GP seemed rather unnecessary. Perez had done a stop more than Button and could easily have passed him under DRS without any damage to tyres for either car.

I guess this, for anybody who still doubted it, puts to bed the idea that McLaren always lets its drivers race. They very clearly do not.

They cannot be trusted at all. In the past they spoke BIG about sporty image, but drivers came out with different stories (even in nineties).

[MinT]

McLaren's Team Orders in the Spanish GP seemed rather unnecessary. Perez had done a stop more than Button and could easily have passed him under DRS without any damage to tyres for either car.

I guess this, for anybody who still doubted it, puts to bed the idea that McLaren always lets its drivers race. They very clearly do not.

Until of course one of the drivers misjudges it and they both crash out......

Even teams that let their drivers race have a long history of putting a stop to any overtakes after the final stops.

[KWSN - DSM]

There is nothing new in McLaren employing team orders, there is nothing new in any team employing team orders. The teams should be able to do what ever they want, and the drivers should never do anything but what the team tells them to do.

So McLaren had their reasons to let Button finish in front of Perez, told Perez to stay and he did. The end result was absolutely zero difference in the total points for the team, so is a non-issue as such.

Were I the team calling my drivers, the call would have been different.

"Jenson Checo is cathching you hand over foot, he is on fresh tires so will overtake you on next straight, going to your right side".

Not because there would be a difference, but for paying Perez for having a better weekend for the team than Jenson. And ensure that there is no smell of Jenson being a more valued member of the team.

[discover23]

What is really annoying with Mclaren is that they deny it and bad mouth other teams for using team orders when they've always done the same thing.
Hypocrisy at its best.

[asmodeo]

McLaren team orders? No way

Martin after Bahrain:

“There were a lot of people on the edge of the nerves. But I did not issue a team order to them. That is not the way we go racing, and you cannot change your philosophy.”

[Disgrace]

Teams settling the positions in the final stint is commonplace. If it still riles you, consider your position as a fan of the sport.

[Seanspeed]

I dont think they were very confident in the ability of Perez and Button to have a clean battle after what happened in Bahrain. I dont blame them for that.

What I do blame them for is not using team orders to their advantage. Instead of having them race, tell Button to let Perez by. They are on differing strategies, so let them maximize em'. Granted, it wouldn't have made much difference as Perez wouldn't catch up to pass anyone else, but its still the more fair approach. They basically punished Perez for being on a more aggressive strategy that THEY put him on and happening to come up against a driver in the same team, who they said he couldn't pass. Thats a bit nonsense.

[tkulla]

As I posted in the VS thread:


Don't you think it's very likely that Sergio and Jenson have come to some sort of an understanding as to when they should fight and when they shouldn't? So it might make more sense to interpret the "save tyres" call to be a reminder of what everyone has agreed to rather than the team ordering a driver to hold station. It's a shame we didn't see one of them come up on the other one during the middle of the race, because I was curious to see how easy they made it for each other (my guess - very easy).

[Massa]

Team orders is ok for me, but Mclaren always teach lesson to others " Oh at Mclaren we let the driver race " while they are worse than Ferrari... Because at least Ferrari is open and honest, not like Mclaren.

[Seanspeed]

Teams settling the positions in the final stint is commonplace. If it still riles you, consider your position as a fan of the sport.

Its commonplace if the two drivers were on somewhat similar strategies beforehand and there's nothing to gain by having them race.

This situation was a little different. Basically, Perez had a strategy he was put on to execute, but then one of the cars that he would ideally want to get by to maximize his strategy happened to be his teammate on a slower strategy, so they just told him, "No, you're not going any further, sorry." Its not really fair.

Remember back to Canada 2008 with BMW. They told Heidfeld to let Kubica by as they were on differing strategies even though the end result would still be a 1-2. There was too much risk in having them race each other when they were on very different strategies, so a simple, "Let him by" approach was ideal.

[tkulla]

Its commonplace if the two drivers were on somewhat similar strategies beforehand and there's nothing to gain by having them race.

This situation was a little different. Basically, Perez had a strategy he was put on to execute, but then one of the cars that he would ideally want to get by to maximize his strategy happened to be his teammate on a slower strategy, so they just told him, "No, you're not going any further, sorry." Its not really fair.

I don't see that at all. After lap 1 Sergio was in 6th and Jenson in 17th. If Sergio had done his job then Jenson would never have been in front of him after his last stop.

At the end there was only 4-laps difference in tyre age so Sergio was not going to breeze by Jenson. It's very likely that Button would have been able to fight and keep him behind, but at the risk of both of them destroying their tyres. And remember, it's Perez that wasn't able to keep his tyres alive for entire stints today (even with the shorter stints of the 4-stop), so the team really was offering him good advice.

[speng]

6 laps to go on a 4 stop

"Please look after your tyres, don't destroy them attacking Jenson, we need to get to the end of the race"

Translated, please hold station and don't attack Jenson

Team orders no?

Edited by speng, 12 May 2013 - 15:13.

[SunnyENTP]

Its McLarens arrogance , finger pointing and hypocrisy that makes them such an unlikeable team.

Edited by SunnyENTP, 12 May 2013 - 15:05.

[velgajski1]

Perfect way to end this snooze fest

[Disgrace]

Its commonplace if the two drivers were on somewhat similar strategies beforehand and there's nothing to gain by having them race.

This situation was a little different. Basically, Perez had a strategy he was put on to execute, but then one of the cars that he would ideally want to get by to maximize his strategy happened to be his teammate on a slower strategy, so they just told him, "No, you're not going any further, sorry." Its not really fair.

Remember back to Canada 2008 with BMW. They told Heidfeld to let Kubica by as they were on differing strategies even though the end result would still be a 1-2. There was too much risk in having them race each other when they were on very different strategies, so a simple, "Let him by" approach was ideal.

I think you're doing your argument a disservice with that BMW comparison. You say it's not fair that Perez wasn't allowed to maximise his strategy but you disregard "fairness" when Heidfeld was not allowed to maximise his.

It's not about fairness either way; it's about minimising risk. That move was more about getting Kubica away from Alonso on the same strategy. This move was about keeping the two McLarens (who made contact in the previous race) apart.

[Hanzo]

My only doubt is what would happen if Button was the one coming from behind faster with fresher tyres. Would he get the same message?

[JimiKart]

McLaren team orders? No way

Martin after Bahrain:

“There were a lot of people on the edge of the nerves. But I did not issue a team order to them. That is not the way we go racing, and you cannot change your philosophy.”

Words can hardly express the depth of hypocrisy at the Mcteam, it would take volumes to cover the dirty deeds of the duplicitous Mr Integrity alone, MW is much better at his craft in that respect and even harder to nail down on anything, above is a great example, one race an unequivocal NO, very next race... team orders implemented - and in typical Mcteam fashion he'll scoff at the suggestion when asked by media and point to the reds as the team that invented orders... Ha

Edited by JimiKart, 12 May 2013 - 15:20.

[Seanspeed]

I think you're doing your argument a disservice with that BMW comparison. You say it's not fair that Perez wasn't allowed to maximise his strategy but you disregard "fairness" when Heidfeld was not allowed to maximise his.

Heidfeld would not have been that position if not for the safety car situation. But granted, things were different back then. Passing was super difficult, but the main point is that they didn't let differing strategies get in the way of the drivers being able to run their own races. They recognized that Kubica had been the lead driver on the day and would have had his entire strategy wasted, while risking a certain 1-2, if BMW expected them to race for their positions.

There is no risk if you just let another driver through. The problem is Mclaren would be hypocrites if they did that(since its not letting them race), and they'd be hypocrites if they didn't(since its also not letting them race). The alternative(to let them race) was risky and I dont blame them for not considering it. Its just that I think they didn't pick the most ideal option from the other 2.

Edited by Seanspeed, 12 May 2013 - 15:21.

[oldracer1957]

McLaren's Team Orders in the Spanish GP seemed rather unnecessary. Perez had done a stop more than Button and could easily have passed him under DRS without any damage to tyres for either car.

I guess this, for anybody who still doubted it, puts to bed the idea that McLaren always lets its drivers race. They very clearly do not.

sorry, but was that a team order? I didnt see any team order there, just Perez too afraid of overtaking Button. Nothing more, nothing less.

Please close the thread...

[Mc_Silver]

Team orders is ok for me, but Mclaren always teach lesson to others " Oh at Mclaren we let the driver race " while they are worse than Ferrari... Because at least Ferrari is open and honest, not like Mclaren.

McLaren worse than Ferrari? Get real.

[kosmos]

I can't believe fans like the ones here (with certain degree of knowledge) are surpised by this , McLaren it's like RB and Ferrari, nothing more, nothing less, the only difference it's that McLaren has the press on his side to brainwash certain people.

[CookinFlatSix]

There is no risk if you just let another driver through. The problem is Mclaren would be hypocrites if they did that(since its not letting them race), and they'd be hypocrites if they didn't(since its also not letting them race). The alternative(to let them race) was risky and I dont blame them for not considering it. Its just that I think they didn't pick the most ideal option from the other 2.

Thats complete rubbish, there was no dilema

After the last race no one would call them hypocrites if they asked button not to waste his and Sergios tyres defending against an inevitable overtake (Sergio had better tyres and was the faster driver) like last time instead of telling Sergio to hold off

[RealRacing]

What we are seeing here is that it takes just one instance of racing between teammates to eradicate any future attempts at it. It's like the teams and TPs are using that one instance to supposedly show their drivers how racing can hurt them and the team and is therefore not to be attempted in the future. Like that they wash their hands vis a vis the fans and the drivers themselves. We all heard SP's declarations after Bahrein, thanking his team for letting them race. I am wondering what he's thinking now. Worst of all is they even have some fans convinced that this is perfectly normal and how things should be anyway. In the end, some people get what they deserve...

[Rocket73]

Not the story the photo

www1.skysports.com/formula-1/news/12433/8708830/Pirelli-announce-they-will-change-their-tyres-after-stinging-criticism-of-the-Spanish-GP

[GodHimself]

I'm ok with McLaren employing team orders, every team does it, F1 is a team sport. What I do find utterly disgraceful is McLaren being hypocritical about it. I hate being lied straight to my face and that's precisely what McLaren have been doing for a long time. I'm loosing respect for this team on many accounts this year.

[Boxerevo]

There is a HUGE difference between a agreement before the race and a "team order".

Maybe Perez just got reminded of the deal,no racing on the last stint.

I can change my opinion,but i didn't see anything bad going on.

Edited by Boxerevo, 12 May 2013 - 16:33.

[DanardiF1]

Not the story the photo

www1.skysports.com/formula-1/news/12433/8708830/Pirelli-announce-they-will-change-their-tyres-after-stinging-criticism-of-the-Spanish-GP

Was just going to post this... perhaps this is why Sergio was told to hold position and to watch for flat spots on last lap, and also explains why he needed an extra stop. He was just too hard on the tyres today, and Jenson wasn't.

[redreni]

Perez was better than Button this weekend, and the team kept him behind through strategy and team orders, and thats another example of the incompetence and unfairness in the Whitmarsh management
Perez was faster than Button at the start and at the end of this race. Button should have been told not to do the stupid thing he did last race - defend against a faster driver, instead poor Sergio was told to hold off despite been quicker

Any driver racing for any team knows perfectly well that if you want to beat your team-mate your best bet is to make sure you're running ahead of him ideally at all times, and particularly after the last pit stop. Reason being, if you run behind him (a) you leave yourself open to being shafted should there be a SC and (b) you leave yourself open to falling foul of a team order to hold station and bring it home. Knowing that in advance, it probably wasn't wise for Checo to run four stops when Button was on three, because it meant his last stop put him behind Button, albeit on fresher rubber, so that he would have to race Button for the place late on. The team would have known from his previous stints what sort of pace they could expect him to run if they told Button to let him by, and it obviously wasn't sufficient to challenge the cars ahead. Accordingly, the team made the logcal decision, and Checo paid the price for running the wrong strategy. If he ran more slowly and conservatively earlier in the race and matched Button's strategy he would have never fallen behind Button and this debate wouldn't arise.

[CookinFlatSix]

So you are saying Sergio picked his own strategy from the cockpit and its therefore his fault he was a victim of team orders?

[Force Ten]

If he ran more slowly and conservatively earlier in the race and matched Button's strategy he would have never fallen behind Button and this debate wouldn't arise.

Yeah, but could he actually have done that? His pace dropped like a rock at the ends of his stints, and these were shorter 4 pitstop stints. If he'd had to stretch them into 3 stop stints would his times been even remotely competitive? One can only speculate.

[Andy35]

Worst thing of all ?

They were fighting for 37th place when the team orders came in.

HOW LOW CAN IT GET FOR MCLAREN AT THE MOMENT ?



Team orders when you are bottom feeding... that is sad.

[andrewf1]

sorry, but was that a team order? I didnt see any team order there, just Perez too afraid of overtaking Button. Nothing more, nothing less.

Please close the thread...

i see, it must have been that, because as history shows, he was obviously too afraid to overtake Button in Bahrain too

[bogi]

Sergio tyre after the race...

[Menace]

Until of course one of the drivers misjudges it and they both crash out......

Even teams that let their drivers race have a long history of putting a stop to any overtakes after the final stops.

The fact some people refuse to accept such a glaringly obvious point, really puts the people crying foul about McLaren in the correct light.

[Menace]

Sergio tyre after the race...

Shhh... he was doing just fine, and only team orders prevented him from finishing ahead of Button.

[prty]

What is really annoying with Mclaren is that they deny it and bad mouth other teams for using team orders when they've always done the same thing.
Hypocrisy at its best.

Indeed.

[speng]

sorry, but was that a team order? I didnt see any team order there, just Perez too afraid of overtaking Button. Nothing more, nothing less.

Please close the thread...

Perez too afraid!! Did you miss Bahrain?

[SCUDmissile]

Team orders is fine, and even though it was for 8th or something, McLaren must have had a good reason for them. But now, hopefully this holier than thou attitude McLaren has had for team orders stops.

That pic of Perez's tyres. McLaren would have you believe they would have kept racing until that was fully down to the canvas, 'we always let the drivers race etc.' they can't have their cake and eat it.

In summary, TO are okay, but hypocrisy aint. No more McLaren condemning team orders, although I won't hold my breath.

[Force Ten]

Sergio tyre after the race...

This has to be the worst shape a tyre is in on a car after it has ended a race I have ever seen.

[Menace]

Team orders is fine, and even though it was for 8th or something, McLaren must have had a good reason for them. But now, hopefully this holier than thou attitude McLaren has had for team orders stops.

That pic of Perez's tyres. McLaren would have you believe they would have kept racing until that was fully down to the canvas, 'we always let the drivers race etc.' they can't have their cake and eat it.

In summary, TO are okay, but hypocrisy aint. No more McLaren condemning team orders, although I won't hold my breath.

How do you even get such a biased view point. Wow. McLaren have a long history of letting the drivers race until the last stop, before cruising home to prevent mechanical gremlins or driver mistakes.


You somehow spun the tire picture against McLaren, when it clearly proves why they told Perez to hold off and look after his tire? Wow, just wow.

[Lights]

McLaren not applying teamorders + people believing they did based on watching tv = McLaren are hypocrites.

And we move on...

[CookinFlatSix]

This has to be the worst shape a tyre is in on a car after it has ended a race I have ever seen.

Yup, the worse shape a tyre YOU have seen. Could be other cars finished the same and you havent seen them.

Edited by CookinFlatSix, 12 May 2013 - 20:28.

[SerratedEdge]

Im not surprised Perez was told to bring the car home.

If both drivers had dueled like Bahrain and took each other out, Whitmarsh, already with serious questions being asked about his competence in the TP role, would have been a dead man walking.

[ATM_Andy]

This has to be the worst shape a tyre is in on a car after it has ended a race I have ever seen.

Oh I've seen so much worse,

[Force Ten]

Oh I've seen so much worse,

Yeah, but you are a little bit closer to the action. I only watch TV

[Force Ten]

Yup, the worse shape a tyre YOU have seen. Could be other cars finished the same and you havent seen them.

That's what I said didn't I? Wanna go 4 more pages paraphrasing what I have just said?

[Rocket73]

Oh I've seen so much worse,

Yeah like di resta's in this race or Hamilton's in practice...that destroyed the suspension and the gearbox! That's a bad tyre!

[Force Ten]

Yeah like di resta's in this race or Hamilton's in practice...that destroyed the suspension and the gearbox! That's a bad tyre!

Well, it wouldn't have had finished a race then, would it? And still be on the car. All on the car not just some selected pieces of it?