172 replies to this topic

[yoyogetfunky]

Can I draw people's attention to the radio?
http://forums.autosp...p;#entry6266808

If you follow the entire radio broadcast, 2 things are very clear:

Perez' side of the garage are trying very hard to get him in front of Button

There are several messages that he has to look after his tyres, not just the message which has been misinterpreted as team orders

The problem is they dont broadcast everything, just a selection of the entire feed. Maybe they gave Button several messages about looking after the tyres too, and the messages to checo in that video, were very mild reminders.

Edited by yoyogetfunky, 13 May 2013 - 19:14.

[Lights]

I dont know, maybe they drive different cars? Whats next, debate why Vettel and Alonso couldnt get past Rosberg? Another thing, what does a question whether Perez wouldv gotten past Button have to do with the discussion did he get a team order or not?

Excellent suggestion. As you might recall, they couldn't get passed Rosberg until he went in 3-stop mode and thus had to drive slower, resulting in Alonso, Vettel, Raikkonen to be way over a second a lap faster in pace, and only then were they able to overtake, and unless I'm mistaken only Alonso with the highest topspeed of everyone managed to do so on the main straight, with Vettel being helped by Rosberg getting dirt on his tyres after defending against Alonso. With Perez being no more than 8 tenths faster than Jenson the moment he got behind him, with similar topspeeds, doesn't that indicate anything to you? Unless Jenson made a mistake, Perez just wasn't going to get by. It seems like you're still in Bahrain-mode were overtaking was so easy drivers actually re-overtook each other just because of DRS. But this really is a different circuit, the corners are long and downforce-heavy, it's much harder to stay close and thus to get tows on the straight, you need an obvious advantage in pace, over 1 second, to really get overtakes done if the driver in front doesn't make a mistake. Button didn't, Perez didn't have the pace advantage, his tyres were overheating and wearing quicker than Jenson's, and in the end he flatspotted them and lost his pace. Had their been a driver close behind he'd been in trouble, it's a risk to drive your tyres into that zone, and that's what McLaren was trying to warn him for with their messages. It's what Whitmarsh says, what Sergio says, and what the picture says. Had Perez caught Button with ~1.5 second a lap and then been stuck behind him, this would have been a different story.

I'm starting to feel a bit sorry that you just don't seem to grasp any of this and keep believing there were teamorders based on McLaren lying about things in the past that have nothing to do with this instance.

[trogggy]

If you want to believe him, your choice. The laptimes and distance between Button and Checo till the end was telling another story about his state of the tyres.

I'm not asking whether you believe him. I'm asking where the obvious untruth is.
There must be one in your opinion - if not what are you doing here?

So where is it?

[yoyogetfunky]

Excellent suggestion. As you might recall, they couldn't get passed Rosberg until he went in 3-stop mode and thus had to drive slower, resulting in Alonso, Vettel, Raikkonen to be way over a second a lap faster in pace, and only then were they able to overtake, and unless I'm mistaken only Alonso with the highest topspeed of everyone managed to do so on the main straight, with Vettel being helped by Rosberg getting dirt on his tyres after defending against Alonso. With Perez being no more than 8 tenths faster than Jenson the moment he got behind him, with similar topspeeds, doesn't that indicate anything to you? Unless Jenson made a mistake, Perez just wasn't going to get by. It seems like you're still in Bahrain-mode were overtaking was so easy drivers actually re-overtook each other just because of DRS. But this really is a different circuit, the corners are long and downforce-heavy, it's much harder to stay close and thus to get tows on the straight, you need an obvious advantage in pace, over 1 second, to really get overtakes done if the driver in front doesn't make a mistake. Button didn't, Perez didn't have the pace advantage, his tyres were overheating and wearing quicker than Jenson's, and in the end he flatspotted them and lost his pace. Had their been a driver close behind he'd been in trouble, it's a risk to drive your tyres into that zone, and that's what McLaren was trying to warn him for with their messages. It's what Whitmarsh says, what Sergio says, and what the picture says. Had Perez caught Button with ~1.5 second a lap and then been stuck behind him, this would have been a different story.

I'm starting to feel a bit sorry that you just don't seem to grasp any of this and keep believing there were teamorders based on McLaren lying about things in the past that have nothing to do with this instance.

Nicely said, and it almost makes sense untill you read this:

Jenson Button:"When I see a car behind I let it past because I'm doing a different strategy and I don't want to damage my tyres. If I block I might destroy my tyres. It's the same thing we had in China, waving each other past"

Maybe Checo thought: lets see how much Jenson means by ''if someone attacks, ill let him go". Maybe his tyres were gonna be damaged because of fighting, but so were Jensons, 4 lap older tyres.

Perhaps it isnt such a weird question: why didnt let Jenson wave Perez past?

[Lights]

Nicely said, and it almost makes sense untill you read this:

Jenson Button:"When I see a car behind I let it past because I'm doing a different strategy and I don't want to damage my tyres. If I block I might destroy my tyres. It's the same thing we had in China, waving each other past"

Maybe Checo thought: lets see how much Jenson means by ''if someone attacks, ill let him go". Maybe his tyres were gonna be damaged because of fighting, but so were Jensons, 4 lap older tyres.

Perhaps it isnt such a weird question: why didnt let Jenson wave Perez past?

Because with no more pit stops and a race to the finish for both cars, strategy is thrown out of the window?

[yoyogetfunky]

I'm not asking whether you believe him. I'm asking where the obvious untruth is.
There must be one in your opinion - if not what are you doing here?

So where is it?

Its obvious enough. Im not gonna spell it out again. In fact im done with you nitpicking through every letter I write and ignoring obvious signals that Withmarsh gave a team order to stop racing Jenson to Perez " What we didn't want was him to be battling until he ran out of rubber." They, he, didnt want that, in other words we told him to stop it.

[yoyogetfunky]

Because with no more pit stops and a race to the finish for both cars, strategy is thrown out of the window?

It is if youre on a 3 stop strategy and forced to drive a lower delta time to make it to the finish compared to the other 4 stopping car capable of doing a faster delta time. Checo was up for it, and probably tried a few things until Withmarsh intervened "What we didn't want was him to be battling until he ran out of rubber." Case closed, my arguments too. You can believe what you want, for me its clear McLaren is back to being a bunch of hypocrites claiming the higher ground and pointing to other teams. Jenson, and his 'ill dont block, ill just wave through'' too.

Edited by yoyogetfunky, 13 May 2013 - 19:35.

[trogggy]

Its obvious enough. Im not gonna spell it out again. In fact im done with you nitpicking through every letter I write and ignoring obvious signals that Withmarsh gave a team order to stop racing Jenson to Perez " What we didn't want was him to be battling until he ran out of rubber." They, he, didnt want that, in other words we told him to stop it.

Nitpicking?
You say 4 laps.
Facts say 11 laps.
Shocking that someone's pedantic enough to point out insignificant details like that, eh?

If it's obvious then just quote and highlight the lie.
I can't see an obvious untruth - which isn't the same as saying it's all true.

[Lights]

It is if youre on a 3 stop strategy and forced to drive a lower delta time to make it to the finish compared to the other 4 stopping car capable of doing a faster delta time. Checo was up for it, and probably tried a few things until Withmarsh intervened "What we didn't want was him to be battling until he ran out of rubber." Case closed, my arguments too. You can believe what you want, for me its clear McLaren is back to being a bunch of hypocrites claiming the higher ground and pointing to other teams. Jenson, and his 'ill dont block, ill just wave through'' too.

If you seriously think you can apply what Jenson referred to about the first couple of stints in China with pit stops ahead, to the last stint in Barcelona with no pit stops ahead, then you're indeed running out of arguments.

Edit: China instead of Bahrain.

Edited by Lights, 13 May 2013 - 19:42.

[yoyogetfunky]

If you seriously think you can apply what Jenson referred to about the first couple of stints in China with pit stops ahead, to the last stint in Barcelona with no pit stops ahead, then you're indeed running out of arguments.

Edit: China instead of Bahrain.

If you cant see a different strategy means different usage of tyres, especially in these pirellis times, also at the end of a race then you are making no sense at all and youre just clutching at straws, wasting your and my time. There is a reason why Withmarsh called Perez, and not Jenson, you see. By The Way: why didnt Jenson wave Perez through at Bahrain when he still had pitstops to go? Why was he on the radio complaining about Perez and not just do what he tells the newspapers and media hes doing, namely wave cars through?

Edited by yoyogetfunky, 13 May 2013 - 19:49.

[Lights]

If you cant see a different strategy means different usage of tyres, especially in these pirellis times, also at the end of a race then you are making no sense at all and youre just clutching at straws, wasting your and my time. There is a reason why Withmarsh called Perez, and not Jenson, you see. By The Way: why didnt Jenson wave Perez through at Bahrain when he still had pitstops to go? Why was he on the radio complaining about Perez and not just do what he tells the newspapers and media hes doing, namely wave cars through?

My use of 'strategy' is in reference to your post here in which you quote Jenson talking about strategy in the context of having to make his tyres last through longer stints than the drivers around him, and therefore he shouldn't defend, instead 'wave them by' because in China he wasn't actually racing Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton for position, they were just behind him because they stopped more times, and waving them by was the best for his strategy. With 10 laps to go in Spain, that obviously doesn't apply, his tyres were a few laps older but why wave someone by if you're actually racing that person for position and there's no more pitstops to go for either driver that can make the difference in end result.

Most of all, Jenson says "If I block I might destroy my tyres". He did not have to block, because Sergio didn't attack.

Oh btw the above is basic racing knowledge these years, I can't believe I'm having to explain this.

[yoyogetfunky]

My use of 'strategy' is in reference to your post here in which you quote Jenson talking about strategy in the context of having to make his tyres last through longer stints than the drivers around him, and therefore he shouldn't defend, instead 'wave them by' because in China he wasn't actually racing Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton for position, they were just behind him because they stopped more times, and waving them by was the best for his strategy. With 10 laps to go in Spain, that obviously doesn't apply, his tyres were a few laps older but why wave someone by if you're actually racing that person for position and there's no more pitstops to go for either driver that can make the difference in end result.

LOL! Yea right. So ending the race with older tyres, driving a lower delta time to make it to the end, it suddenly doesnt matter anymore if your blocking? What if the blocking results in not being able to finish the race because it wears the tyres out too much? You should replay Monza 2012 and see what Alonso did when Checo came hunting for him at the end of the race. Jenson talks the talk but doesnt walk the walk my friend.

Most of all, Jenson says "If I block I might destroy my tyres". He did not have to block, because Sergio didn't attack.

Then why, my good man, did Withmarsh get on the radio at all, and now explains that he didnt want him to destroy his tyres with overtaking Jenson?

And again, why didnt he wave Perez past in Bahrain when he evidently was busy 'managing' his tyres, and that being one of the complaints afterwards?

Oh btw the above is basic racing knowledge these years, I can't believe I'm having to explain this.

Except you seem to handle it with double standards, wich makes it confusing and thats why im asking.

Im getting the idea that your defending Jensons actions a little too much here. Are you a fan of him?

[RealRacing]

Ferrari had to deny that it was a team order because they (team orders) were illegal at that time. They are now legal.

Not to go back to the Ferrari case but that made it even more shameful, if possible. In any case, yes they are legal now, but still frowned upon and creating a big stir, so if you can avoid admitting you gave one, you probably do. The fact that MW did not say it was a TO makes it even more suspicious. If they are legal, why not come out and say it directly like RB? The problem is he said that they don't give TOs before...

[techspeed]

That was the time it took for Perez to come up to Buttons rear. I was in the understanding Withmarsh call came lap 59, so i missed 2 laps. Still, there was no indication whatsoever that Perez tyres where gone, hurting, damaged, you name it. Withmarsh didnt want him to overtake Button, and thanks to your link thats even more apparent now.

Firstly, Sergios messages come from Mark Temple, not Whitmarsh. Whitmarsh doesn't talk to the drivers during the race, in the same way no other team principal speaks to any other driver during the race.

Now to mess up the discussion regarding when the messages were sent as the TV messages are delayed. The broadcaster chooses which message to play, and also delays them so they are less important for the race teams. According to McLarens own live commentary on their website the first message to Sergio “We're going to need the tyres in good condition at the end of the stint. Keep looking after them.” was between lap 54 and 56, when Sergio was still over 2.2 seconds behind Button, not when he had caught up to him. This was followed by “There are places to take at the end but we must look after the tyres.” when he had caught up to Button, which implies passing several cars in front, not just Jenson.

There was also these other messages posted by McLaren on their live commentary during the race:
"0.7s between Jenson and Checo now."
"Lap 61: Tight battle between Jenson and Checo, also close are ROS and DIR, GUT and RIC. Lots to see in the final five laps."
To Sergio - “The cars ahead are coming back towards you.”
To Sergio - “One more lap after this one. Be careful of flat-spotting.”
"Nose-to-tail for Jenson and Checo on this final lap. Which way is it going to go?"
"Jenson pulls out a slight lead – will he keep it to the line?"
"ALO wins his home grand prix, followed by RAI, MAS, VET, WEB, ROS, DIR and… Jenson! Then Checo and RIC"

I don't see anything there that tells us they were told to hold station, they tell us McLaren were watching the pair of them race. Now I'm sure you are now going to tell us all that it is all a big conspiracy, that McLaren spent the last laps posting fake messages and had Sergio race from over two seconds behind to running right behind Button, so destroying his tyres, all to cover up team orders.

[Lights]

LOL! Yea right. So ending the race with older tyres, driving a lower delta time to make it to the end, it suddenly doesnt matter anymore if your blocking? What if the blocking results in not being able to finish the race because it wears the tyres out too much? You should replay Monza 2012 and see what Alonso did when Checo came hunting for him at the end of the race. Jenson talks the talk but doesnt walk the walk my friend.

Then why, my good man, did Withmarsh get on the radio at all, and now explains that he didnt want him to destroy his tyres with overtaking Jenson?

And again, why didnt he wave Perez past in Bahrain when he evidently was busy 'managing' his tyres, and that being one of the complaints afterwards?

Because "Checo himself said at the end his tyres were finished. What we didn't want was him to be battling until he ran out of rubber. He very nearly did as it turns out. So it was not tactical, it was practical. We could see the tyre wear energy and we were worried he was going to end up with no rubber at the end of the race, which he virtually did."

Bahrain is irrelevant in this discussion, but to answer your question, Jenson said himself that he should have let him by, but made a mistake not to.

[yoyogetfunky]

Because "Checo himself said at the end his tyres were finished. What we didn't want was him to be battling until he ran out of rubber. He very nearly did as it turns out. So it was not tactical, it was practical. We could see the tyre wear energy and we were worried he was going to end up with no rubber at the end of the race, which he virtually did."

Bahrain is irrelevant in this discussion, but to answer your question, Jenson said himself that he should have let him by, but made a mistake not to.

Thanks for that last quote. I guess we wont be coming to an agreement so ill let it go like this. Apologies to you and everyone else about my sometimes etremely poor way of expressing myself and creating confusion, as well as being wrong about certain laps after checos last stop. I will make it a point of attention to try and improve it, and avoid uncesserary confusion and irritation. Peace!

Edited by yoyogetfunky, 13 May 2013 - 20:20.

[WitnessX]

If you cant see a different strategy means different usage of tyres, especially in these pirellis times, also at the end of a race then you are making no sense at all and youre just clutching at straws, wasting your and my time. There is a reason why Withmarsh called Perez, and not Jenson, you see. By The Way: why didnt Jenson wave Perez through at Bahrain when he still had pitstops to go? Why was he on the radio complaining about Perez and not just do what he tells the newspapers and media hes doing, namely wave cars through?

Because the time they were both on the same strategy, it was only after he had to come in earlier than expected that they switched to an extra stop at the end.

The McLaren drivers are privileged in that they can race each other, that means the right to attack and defend. They are not free to do what they want, they need to adhere to some rules for this privalege, meaning they have to keep it clean.

[redreni]

If you cant see a different strategy means different usage of tyres, especially in these pirellis times, also at the end of a race then you are making no sense at all and youre just clutching at straws, wasting your and my time. There is a reason why Withmarsh called Perez, and not Jenson, you see. By The Way: why didnt Jenson wave Perez through at Bahrain when he still had pitstops to go? Why was he on the radio complaining about Perez and not just do what he tells the newspapers and media hes doing, namely wave cars through?

Buton didn't let Checo through in the last stint in Barcalona because it was a straight fight to the flag. He didn't wave him through in Bahrain because, at the time, they were on the same strategy. It was only later Button realised he couldn't keep the tyres in and went to "plan C" - 4 stops. It's quite simple - if a car catches you at a rate that tells you you are defenceless, you don't defend for the reasons Button mentioned. If a car catches you relatively slowly (and in the high-deg tyre era, 0.8s a lap is quite a relatively slow rate of gain) and you know you have the same number of stops remaining as it, of course you defend because, contrary to a lot of nonsense on this forum and in Autosport, an F1 Grand Prix is still a race! This really isn't very hard to understand.

[BillBald]

Clever tactics kept Jenson ahead of Checo at the end in Barcelona.

He knew that he wouldn't be overtaken unless his tyres were in bad shape, so he started the stint quite slowly. He didn't make the mistake of responding when Checo quickly closed the gap.

After that he drove just fast enough to keep Checo from getting a shot at him. Fortunately for him, that's not too difficult at this track.

Checo was probably incredibly frustrated to find himself behind Jenson after all that had happened in quali and at the start of the race. He probably tried every trick in the book to get past, and he almost destroyed his tyres. It certainly seems like he ignored all the warnings to look after his tyres.

After damaging his tyres, Checo was almost 3 seconds slower on the last lap than on previous laps. Jenson also slowed down, presumably still following his strategy of not going faster than he needed to.

It's just a shame that the race director chose not to show us this action, but it's not untypical, sadly. That doesn't prove that there was nothing to see.

[Lazy]

It seems to me that the weight of evidence is heavily against there being team orders in this instance, added to that McLaren have repeatedly allowed their drivers to race in recent years, very often at the detriment to the teams results. This seems pretty strong evidence that they are as good as their word in this respect.

[ardbeg]

It seems to me that the weight of evidence is heavily against there being team orders in this instance, added to that McLaren have repeatedly allowed their drivers to race in recent years, very often at the detriment to the teams results. This seems pretty strong evidence that they are as good as their word in this respect.

Maybe there was no team orders. Not this time. Maybe not before either, but it will be! I am sure of that! Therefore Whitmarsh must resign!

[corf]

Maybe there was no team orders. Not this time. Maybe not before either, but it will be! I am sure of that! Therefore Whitmarsh must resign!

Sarcasm?

There won't be any team orders anytime soon when there is no championship to fight for. The cars are too slow.

[ardbeg]

Sarcasm?

There won't be any team orders anytime soon when there is no championship to fight for. The cars are too slow.

Yes, well, something like that. Seems there is many here, not you, that choose to ignore the fact that there is no evidence of team orders and they also choose to ignore all information that, to most peopl, clearly indicates there was no team orders. While ignoring that, they push a discussion that has lost both it's target and direction.