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New Pirelli tyres and DRS - a disaster for F1 and racing? Part 2 [merged]


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#2301 Timstr11

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:19

Don't be silly now. Glue doesn't cause tyre explosions. This looks like a change in construction...

Looking forward to hearing what Pirelli say on the matter.

The glue can very much change the mode of failure as the forces are moved somewhere else rather than dissipated by the delamination.

Edited by Timstr11, 30 June 2013 - 14:19.


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#2302 PretentiousBread

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:19

And there I was thinking DRS is artificial, but I can live with that when the most recent addition to "the show" is randomly exploding tyres.


A tyre management exercise was not exciting enough - what's the next step? Tyre survival exercise. It should be rebranded Tyre Survivor.

#2303 Mr2s

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:20

Remember Indy. One exploded tire and the all Michelin teams withdrew. You cant make anything perfectly safe, but you can demand that a tire does not explode in normal use. I feel pity for Pirelli, they have made a mistake but have not been allowed to correct it. Now their brand value is seriously hurt.


Michelin were new to Indy and Bridgestone wern't. Michelin asked for one corner to be adapted for safety and Ferrari/Bridgestone opposed.

#2304 spacekid

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:20

Teams are mounting the rear tires not the way they are supposed to be, how can this be Pirelli's fault?


I'm sorry I don't understand what you are saying here. All the teams? In what way are they using the tyres incorrectly?

Isn't it Pirelli's job to build a product that is fit for purpose?

I can agree with an argument that due to a lack of testing Pirelli have been hindered in investigating and fixing whatever balls up they've made in their construction process.

#2305 DanardiF1

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:20

It's always debris guys! It's Bernie's new way to spice up the show. At every single F1 track.


Has carbon got sharper in the days since Michelin and Bridgestone? Has to be the reason...

#2306 SPBHM

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:20

lack of testing is a disgrace for F1.

#2307 Mr2s

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:20

Typical selfish Di Resta
"I had no issues, I have no concerns with the tires"

Force India vetoed the original idea to make the tyres safer as well


Wow ! in F1 ? never

#2308 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:21

How do you know that?


It's been widely publicized.

#2309 kimster89

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:21

If i am beeig totally cynical and careless for safety i must say todays explosions did produce a good show.

#2310 ardbeg

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:21

IMO Pirelly missed a golden chance to replace Hembery after the tyre testing story.

Yes. Wait... he is the guy that bought the glue at 7Eleven?

#2311 Mr2s

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:22


"we're not supposed to drive outside the white lines, but we do"

David Coulthard BBC, just now

#2312 ExFlagMan

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:22

Good point made by Gary Anderson looking at the kerb at turn 4.

#2313 FastnLoud

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:23

I'm scared for races like Spa

#2314 pdac

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:23

Gary just explained on the BBC why it's a problem with the kerbs - there's a big step between the kerb and the concrete.

#2315 Mr2s

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:23

"That's not safe"

Gary Anderson pointing at sharp edge of kerb, BBC just now.

Edited by Mr2s, 30 June 2013 - 14:24.


#2316 EvilWarMachine

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:24

Gary Anderson has pointed out the potential problem at turn 4.

#2317 pRy

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:24

Gary Anderson on his hands and knees looking at turn 4 and he thinks the very edge of the raised kurb is too sharp. It's a 90 degree angle and he thinks because drivers are riding the kurbs the tyre side wall has been hitting the 90 degree sharp edge.

#2318 SamH123

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:25

Punctures happen for all tires
The point is more the explosion isn't it

#2319 ardbeg

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:26

Michelin were new to Indy and Bridgestone wern't. Michelin asked for one corner to be adapted for safety and Ferrari/Bridgestone opposed.

Yes, but the real problem was that Max blew it completely out of proportion which made the legal risks become real. But what I mean is that FiA should have stepped in already, there had been to many spontaneous tire explosions before this race.

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#2320 pdac

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:26

Punctures happen for all tires
The point is more the explosion isn't it

Good point

#2321 Zippel

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:26

Michelin were new to Indy and Bridgestone wern't. Michelin asked for one corner to be adapted for safety and Ferrari/Bridgestone opposed.


No they weren't new they had been in the sport since 2001. It was s combination of a resurface of that part of the circuit which only Bridgestone were aware of through Firestone and the 1 set of tyres for a race rule.

#2322 Massa_f1

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:26

If i am beeig totally cynical and careless for safety i must say todays explosions did produce a good show.


Yes, but it's peoples attitudes like that which is going to see someone have a serious accident.

If you can't enjoy F1 without duff useless tyres, than maybe F1 is not the sport for you. (not you personally, just in general)

It is all Pirelli's fault, and I am surprised Paul still has a job, because he appears to be absolutely useless.

Edited by Massa_f1, 30 June 2013 - 14:27.


#2323 SenorSjon

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:27

Typical selfish Di Resta
"I had no issues, I have no concerns with the tires"

Force India vetoed the original idea to make the tyres safer as well

In my book one of the most unlikable drivers. You should have heard him when he had a punture like others.

#2324 FastnLoud

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:27

Gary Anderson on his hands and knees looking at turn 4 and he thinks the very edge of the raised kurb is too sharp. It's a 90 degree angle and he thinks because drivers are riding the kurbs the tyre side wall has been hitting the 90 degree sharp edge.



I had to laugh with all the radio saying stay off the kerbs...

F1 is a bit laughable at the moment.

#2325 Andy35

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:27

Gary just explained on the BBC why it's a problem with the kerbs - there's a big step between the kerb and the concrete.


Are you suggesting we get away from kerbs that have been in place in all F1 tracks for donkeys years ?

Surely Pirelli know kerbs exist and that drivers drive over them.

No, the issue here is Pirelli getting too close to the edge after the FIA gave them a commission to "make it more exciting". Which they have done but for all the wrong reasons. FIA is to blame here once again, trying to artificially spice it up, along with DRS, just because they cannot get to grip with the real issue which is too much aero downforce.

Andy

Edited by Andy35, 30 June 2013 - 14:28.


#2326 jee

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:27

How do you know that?


http://adamcooperf1....pped-at-monaco/

#2327 PretentiousBread

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:27

Gary Anderson on his hands and knees looking at turn 4 and he thinks the very edge of the raised kurb is too sharp. It's a 90 degree angle and he thinks because drivers are riding the kurbs the tyre side wall has been hitting the 90 degree sharp edge.


Lol, Gary Anderson is chief Pirelli apologist. Can't remember him saying a single bad thing about them.

#2328 f1nonothing

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:28

I think some anti-RBR fans are going over the roof here. I personally would love Red Bull to win yes, but 2012-type tyres didn't allow Red Bull to dominate, did they? We are not asking for tyres specific to Red Bull's advantage, just a slight adjustment so it wouldn't degrade to the point of not racing.

I am totally on board with the 'no damning Pirelli' bunch. Pirelli has done a great job so far and to ask for wholesale changes or to revert to a previous spec isn't my intention. But I would like a little more checks done with the tyres before another Spain 2013 race comes to pass. Just ensure that the tyres allow for a little pushing, a little racing, is all I ask. Barcelona's hot conditions sure didn't help the situation, so I am pretty sure Pirelli would do a better job for the rest of the races.

Spain is the only race where I thought the tyre situation was bad. So 1 out of 44 races isn't that bad a record at all.



Why not just let the teams choose Which tyres they use from the 3 available

Edited by f1nonothing, 30 June 2013 - 14:30.


#2329 Atreiu

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:29

Gary Anderson has pointed out the potential problem at turn 4.


1 - It should have been caught in the pre GP inspection,
2 - another reason to not have kerbs at all. Drivers either stay in the track or not.

#2330 Kobasmashi

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:30

I have to admit I feared for an Indy 05 repeat after JEV's problem and the long safety car. I know the speed and proximity of the wall at Indy could have caused (and did cause) bigger accidents, but if I remember rightly there were only 2 or 3 Michelin failures, and the other wobbly tyres that weekend weren't that much more suspect looking than the slow-mos they showed on Sky of the Red Bull and Merc at Abbey today.

#2331 Mr2s

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:31

Yes, but the real problem was that Max blew it completely out of proportion which made the legal risks become real. But what I mean is that FiA should have stepped in already, there had been to many spontaneous tire explosions before this race.



I dont think you can make these new 'exciting' tyres as strong as the tyres in the past. and you cant simulate the actual race on race day. Too much of a blame game going on for a complex issue. What happens if Pirelli make super strong tyres tested for hours on sharp kerbs, will they be as exciting?

#2332 PassWind

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:31

Its the same for everyone, move along, now its a big deal, one team wanted a proactive approach got told to piss off, they still lead both championships and have the tires relatively sorted, the teams have no one but themselves to blame. tough titties.

Probably the safety card will be pulled anyway, a lot of near misses today, FM on SP was very close to a serious accident.

#2333 ExFlagMan

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:31

Are you suggesting we get away from kerbs that have been in place in all F1 tracks for donkeys years ?

Surely Pirelli know kerbs exist and that drivers drive over them.

No, the issue here is Pirelli getting too close to the edge after the FIA gave them a commission to "make it more exciting". Which they have done but for all the wrong reasons. FIA is to blame here once again, trying to artificially spice it up, along with DRS, just because they cannot get to grip with the real issue which is too much aero downforce.

Andy

The kerb that Gary was looking at looked pretty new to me -as it would be as that is the new part of the track - no rounded edges that you get when a kerb has been abused. Maybe F1 drivers are just more greedy about using the kerb than any other formula.

#2334 SenorSjon

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:32

1 - It should have been caught in the pre GP inspection,
2 - another reason to not have kerbs at all. Drivers either stay in the track or not.

3 - I bet these kerbs were there last year as well.
4 - other tracks DO have kerbs.

#2335 pdac

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:33

Are you suggesting we get away from kerbs that have been in place in all F1 tracks for donkeys years ?

Surely Pirelli know kerbs exist and that drivers drive over them.

No, the issue here is Pirelli getting too close to the edge after the FIA gave them a commission to "make it more exciting". Which they have done but for all the wrong reasons. FIA is to blame here once again, trying to artificially spice it up, along with DRS, just because they cannot get to grip with the real issue which is too much aero downforce.

Andy

Eh, I think he was explaining, from a technical standpoint, why the tyres were failing at turn 4 - nothing about whether it was right that they should fail there.

#2336 ExFlagMan

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:33

Lol, Gary Anderson is chief Pirelli apologist. Can't remember him saying a single bad thing about them.

Someone investigates the problem and comes up with a plausible cause and all you can do is rubbish him

#2337 HP

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:34

How is it Hemberys fault? He's just a front man to put a good face on everything.

His answers and deflections in the last few weeks were IMO beyond acceptable. For example, when he said that Pirelli can build more durable tires, if the fans and the teams want boring races. Several times it seemed to me he was shifting blame. Don't think that can be called putting up a good face. At least to me, that was insulting and very poor PR. We all want exciting races. If Hembery otherwise is good, they at least should give him some PR person who knows how to say thing in a manner more profitable for Pirelli.

However what we saw today and in several other races this year has nothing to do with tire performance, but with tire construction. Will be interesting to hear what will be said this time. I'm sick and tired of yet another excuse though.

Edited by HP, 30 June 2013 - 14:35.


#2338 ExFlagMan

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:35

3 - I bet these kerbs were there last year as well.
4 - other tracks DO have kerbs.

Not all kerbs are the same - I wonder how close you have ever been to one?

#2339 PretentiousBread

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:35

Yes, but it's peoples attitudes like that which is going to see someone have a serious accident.

If you can't enjoy F1 without duff useless tyres, than maybe F1 is not the sport for you. (not you personally, just in general)

It is all Pirelli's fault, and I am surprised Paul still has a job, because he appears to be absolutely useless.


No, that's exactly it, at present F1 is EXACTLY the sport for shallow individuals with a short attention span, who are more impressed by superficial 'entertainment' than any real essence of sport and competition.

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#2340 Timstr11

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:36

Sarah Holt ‏@sarahholtf1 7m
The teams failed to agree on the new tyre construction Pirelli wanted to bring to Silverstone. Adrian Newey said that's part of the problem.



#2341 harrys

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:36

Is there a link between tyres deliberately being made to degrade faster and the failures we saw today? Or are they completely separate issues?

#2342 Mr2s

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:36

Are you suggesting we get away from kerbs that have been in place in all F1 tracks for donkeys years ?


Andy


Kerbs were put there to stop the cars wearing away the corners into dangerous dips that were dirt and grass in the old days.

#2343 spacekid

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:36

Gary Anderson on his hands and knees looking at turn 4 and he thinks the very edge of the raised kurb is too sharp. It's a 90 degree angle and he thinks because drivers are riding the kurbs the tyre side wall has been hitting the 90 degree sharp edge.


This is fine, but then why;

Have there only been F1 tyre failures of this kind at Silverstone this weekend, and over recent months?
Have the Pirelli tyres been failing at other tracks where there have not previously been problems with the kerbs?

These tyre failures have been occurring too frequently in F1 races all season, and the constant is the Pirelli F1 tyre.

#2344 ardbeg

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:36

I dont think you can make these new 'exciting' tyres as strong as the tyres in the past. and you cant simulate the actual race on race day. Too much of a blame game going on for a complex issue. What happens if Pirelli make super strong tyres tested for hours on sharp kerbs, will they be as exciting?

A tire can be strong and still drop in performance just as it can be weak and keep performance for a long time. Michelin had much thinner sidewalls than Bridgestone, that was their problem there. Looks like Pirelli have weak sidewalls as well. I think all small nudges with a front wing have resulted in punctures the last few years.

Anyway, tires are not very exciting. and we do not notice if they are a second quicker or slower unless we look at the timing sheets.

#2345 flyboy

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:37

If I am on the Pirelli board I have had it with the continual complaints about the tires that are only what Bernie and the FIA asked for, and today was the final straw.... millions of consumers watching my tires explode repeatedly. Consumers don't know about sharp curbs... they expect their tires to stand up when they nudge a curb.
I am telling the rest of the board that it is time to call an end to our involvement in the fiasco that is current F-1 and let some other tire company deal with the idiocy of the FIA, Bernie and the teams.

#2346 PretentiousBread

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:40

Someone investigates the problem and comes up with a plausible cause and all you can do is rubbish him


Missing the point - the tyres are not fit for purpose. They are too fragile for the demands of the combination of an F1 car and an F1 circuit. What is causing the duff tyres to explode is of secondary importance to the tyres being duff.

#2347 HP

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:42

Not all kerbs are the same - I wonder how close you have ever been to one?

You do know the procedures? Michelin's failure at Indy 2005 was to not take proper note of the resurfacing of the track. I don't know if Pirelli did their home work or not in Silverstone, but it's their expertise and responsibility to provide tires that don't explode. And today we've seen that these tires even damaged the floor of those F1 cars in a way never seen before. And Kimi had some tire debris flying at him during the race.

IMO no excuse will do under these circumstances.

#2348 kimster89

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:42

I think we can agree that after the secret test Mercedes got on top of its tyre issues. 3 races and no new blunder, i think today Mercedes was even better with tyres than Lotus.

#2349 smitten

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:43

What is causing the duff tyres to explode is of secondary importance to the tyres being duff.


Duff logic. They are not fit for purpose if they are exploding when being used in the manner they were contracted to be used in. Teams running them backwards, at low pressures, at steep camber or toe-in could all be outside guidance and contribute to the failures. Or they could just be sh!t.


#2350 ExFlagMan

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:46

You do know the procedures? Michelin's failure at Indy 2005 was to not take proper note of the resurfacing of the track. I don't know if Pirelli did their home work or not in Silverstone, but it's their expertise and responsibility to provide tires that don't explode. And today we've seen that these tires even damaged the floor of those F1 cars in a way never seen before. And Kimi had some tire debris flying at him during the race.

IMO no excuse will do under these circumstances.

If it is a kerb problem the it is a FIA issue for not inspecting the circuit properly - and that should not be done by just driving round the circuit on a Thursday afternoon before the GP as usually happens.