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New Pirelli tyres and DRS - a disaster for F1 and racing? Part 2 [merged]


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#2301 Mr2s

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:23

"That's not safe"

Gary Anderson pointing at sharp edge of kerb, BBC just now.

Edited by Mr2s, 30 June 2013 - 14:24.


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#2302 EvilWarMachine

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:24

Gary Anderson has pointed out the potential problem at turn 4.

#2303 pRy

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:24

Gary Anderson on his hands and knees looking at turn 4 and he thinks the very edge of the raised kurb is too sharp. It's a 90 degree angle and he thinks because drivers are riding the kurbs the tyre side wall has been hitting the 90 degree sharp edge.

#2304 SamH123

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:25

Punctures happen for all tires
The point is more the explosion isn't it

#2305 ardbeg

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:26

Michelin were new to Indy and Bridgestone wern't. Michelin asked for one corner to be adapted for safety and Ferrari/Bridgestone opposed.

Yes, but the real problem was that Max blew it completely out of proportion which made the legal risks become real. But what I mean is that FiA should have stepped in already, there had been to many spontaneous tire explosions before this race.

#2306 pdac

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:26

Punctures happen for all tires
The point is more the explosion isn't it

Good point

#2307 Zippel

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:26

Michelin were new to Indy and Bridgestone wern't. Michelin asked for one corner to be adapted for safety and Ferrari/Bridgestone opposed.


No they weren't new they had been in the sport since 2001. It was s combination of a resurface of that part of the circuit which only Bridgestone were aware of through Firestone and the 1 set of tyres for a race rule.

#2308 Massa_f1

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:26

If i am beeig totally cynical and careless for safety i must say todays explosions did produce a good show.


Yes, but it's peoples attitudes like that which is going to see someone have a serious accident.

If you can't enjoy F1 without duff useless tyres, than maybe F1 is not the sport for you. (not you personally, just in general)

It is all Pirelli's fault, and I am surprised Paul still has a job, because he appears to be absolutely useless.

Edited by Massa_f1, 30 June 2013 - 14:27.


#2309 SenorSjon

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:27

Typical selfish Di Resta
"I had no issues, I have no concerns with the tires"

Force India vetoed the original idea to make the tyres safer as well

In my book one of the most unlikable drivers. You should have heard him when he had a punture like others.

#2310 FastnLoud

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:27

Gary Anderson on his hands and knees looking at turn 4 and he thinks the very edge of the raised kurb is too sharp. It's a 90 degree angle and he thinks because drivers are riding the kurbs the tyre side wall has been hitting the 90 degree sharp edge.



I had to laugh with all the radio saying stay off the kerbs...

F1 is a bit laughable at the moment.

#2311 Andy35

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:27

Gary just explained on the BBC why it's a problem with the kerbs - there's a big step between the kerb and the concrete.


Are you suggesting we get away from kerbs that have been in place in all F1 tracks for donkeys years ?

Surely Pirelli know kerbs exist and that drivers drive over them.

No, the issue here is Pirelli getting too close to the edge after the FIA gave them a commission to "make it more exciting". Which they have done but for all the wrong reasons. FIA is to blame here once again, trying to artificially spice it up, along with DRS, just because they cannot get to grip with the real issue which is too much aero downforce.

Andy

Edited by Andy35, 30 June 2013 - 14:28.


#2312 jee

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:27

How do you know that?


http://adamcooperf1....pped-at-monaco/

#2313 PretentiousBread

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:27

Gary Anderson on his hands and knees looking at turn 4 and he thinks the very edge of the raised kurb is too sharp. It's a 90 degree angle and he thinks because drivers are riding the kurbs the tyre side wall has been hitting the 90 degree sharp edge.


Lol, Gary Anderson is chief Pirelli apologist. Can't remember him saying a single bad thing about them.

#2314 f1nonothing

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:28

I think some anti-RBR fans are going over the roof here. I personally would love Red Bull to win yes, but 2012-type tyres didn't allow Red Bull to dominate, did they? We are not asking for tyres specific to Red Bull's advantage, just a slight adjustment so it wouldn't degrade to the point of not racing.

I am totally on board with the 'no damning Pirelli' bunch. Pirelli has done a great job so far and to ask for wholesale changes or to revert to a previous spec isn't my intention. But I would like a little more checks done with the tyres before another Spain 2013 race comes to pass. Just ensure that the tyres allow for a little pushing, a little racing, is all I ask. Barcelona's hot conditions sure didn't help the situation, so I am pretty sure Pirelli would do a better job for the rest of the races.

Spain is the only race where I thought the tyre situation was bad. So 1 out of 44 races isn't that bad a record at all.



Why not just let the teams choose Which tyres they use from the 3 available

Edited by f1nonothing, 30 June 2013 - 14:30.


#2315 Atreiu

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:29

Gary Anderson has pointed out the potential problem at turn 4.


1 - It should have been caught in the pre GP inspection,
2 - another reason to not have kerbs at all. Drivers either stay in the track or not.

#2316 Kobasmashi

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:30

I have to admit I feared for an Indy 05 repeat after JEV's problem and the long safety car. I know the speed and proximity of the wall at Indy could have caused (and did cause) bigger accidents, but if I remember rightly there were only 2 or 3 Michelin failures, and the other wobbly tyres that weekend weren't that much more suspect looking than the slow-mos they showed on Sky of the Red Bull and Merc at Abbey today.

#2317 Mr2s

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:31

Yes, but the real problem was that Max blew it completely out of proportion which made the legal risks become real. But what I mean is that FiA should have stepped in already, there had been to many spontaneous tire explosions before this race.



I dont think you can make these new 'exciting' tyres as strong as the tyres in the past. and you cant simulate the actual race on race day. Too much of a blame game going on for a complex issue. What happens if Pirelli make super strong tyres tested for hours on sharp kerbs, will they be as exciting?

#2318 PassWind

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:31

Its the same for everyone, move along, now its a big deal, one team wanted a proactive approach got told to piss off, they still lead both championships and have the tires relatively sorted, the teams have no one but themselves to blame. tough titties.

Probably the safety card will be pulled anyway, a lot of near misses today, FM on SP was very close to a serious accident.

#2319 ExFlagMan

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:31

Are you suggesting we get away from kerbs that have been in place in all F1 tracks for donkeys years ?

Surely Pirelli know kerbs exist and that drivers drive over them.

No, the issue here is Pirelli getting too close to the edge after the FIA gave them a commission to "make it more exciting". Which they have done but for all the wrong reasons. FIA is to blame here once again, trying to artificially spice it up, along with DRS, just because they cannot get to grip with the real issue which is too much aero downforce.

Andy

The kerb that Gary was looking at looked pretty new to me -as it would be as that is the new part of the track - no rounded edges that you get when a kerb has been abused. Maybe F1 drivers are just more greedy about using the kerb than any other formula.

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#2320 SenorSjon

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:32

1 - It should have been caught in the pre GP inspection,
2 - another reason to not have kerbs at all. Drivers either stay in the track or not.

3 - I bet these kerbs were there last year as well.
4 - other tracks DO have kerbs.

#2321 pdac

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:33

Are you suggesting we get away from kerbs that have been in place in all F1 tracks for donkeys years ?

Surely Pirelli know kerbs exist and that drivers drive over them.

No, the issue here is Pirelli getting too close to the edge after the FIA gave them a commission to "make it more exciting". Which they have done but for all the wrong reasons. FIA is to blame here once again, trying to artificially spice it up, along with DRS, just because they cannot get to grip with the real issue which is too much aero downforce.

Andy

Eh, I think he was explaining, from a technical standpoint, why the tyres were failing at turn 4 - nothing about whether it was right that they should fail there.

#2322 ExFlagMan

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:33

Lol, Gary Anderson is chief Pirelli apologist. Can't remember him saying a single bad thing about them.

Someone investigates the problem and comes up with a plausible cause and all you can do is rubbish him

#2323 HP

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:34

How is it Hemberys fault? He's just a front man to put a good face on everything.

His answers and deflections in the last few weeks were IMO beyond acceptable. For example, when he said that Pirelli can build more durable tires, if the fans and the teams want boring races. Several times it seemed to me he was shifting blame. Don't think that can be called putting up a good face. At least to me, that was insulting and very poor PR. We all want exciting races. If Hembery otherwise is good, they at least should give him some PR person who knows how to say thing in a manner more profitable for Pirelli.

However what we saw today and in several other races this year has nothing to do with tire performance, but with tire construction. Will be interesting to hear what will be said this time. I'm sick and tired of yet another excuse though.

Edited by HP, 30 June 2013 - 14:35.


#2324 ExFlagMan

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:35

3 - I bet these kerbs were there last year as well.
4 - other tracks DO have kerbs.

Not all kerbs are the same - I wonder how close you have ever been to one?

#2325 PretentiousBread

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:35

Yes, but it's peoples attitudes like that which is going to see someone have a serious accident.

If you can't enjoy F1 without duff useless tyres, than maybe F1 is not the sport for you. (not you personally, just in general)

It is all Pirelli's fault, and I am surprised Paul still has a job, because he appears to be absolutely useless.


No, that's exactly it, at present F1 is EXACTLY the sport for shallow individuals with a short attention span, who are more impressed by superficial 'entertainment' than any real essence of sport and competition.

#2326 Timstr11

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:36

Sarah Holt ‏@sarahholtf1 7m
The teams failed to agree on the new tyre construction Pirelli wanted to bring to Silverstone. Adrian Newey said that's part of the problem.



#2327 harrys

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:36

Is there a link between tyres deliberately being made to degrade faster and the failures we saw today? Or are they completely separate issues?

#2328 Mr2s

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:36

Are you suggesting we get away from kerbs that have been in place in all F1 tracks for donkeys years ?


Andy


Kerbs were put there to stop the cars wearing away the corners into dangerous dips that were dirt and grass in the old days.

#2329 spacekid

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:36

Gary Anderson on his hands and knees looking at turn 4 and he thinks the very edge of the raised kurb is too sharp. It's a 90 degree angle and he thinks because drivers are riding the kurbs the tyre side wall has been hitting the 90 degree sharp edge.


This is fine, but then why;

Have there only been F1 tyre failures of this kind at Silverstone this weekend, and over recent months?
Have the Pirelli tyres been failing at other tracks where there have not previously been problems with the kerbs?

These tyre failures have been occurring too frequently in F1 races all season, and the constant is the Pirelli F1 tyre.

#2330 ardbeg

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:36

I dont think you can make these new 'exciting' tyres as strong as the tyres in the past. and you cant simulate the actual race on race day. Too much of a blame game going on for a complex issue. What happens if Pirelli make super strong tyres tested for hours on sharp kerbs, will they be as exciting?

A tire can be strong and still drop in performance just as it can be weak and keep performance for a long time. Michelin had much thinner sidewalls than Bridgestone, that was their problem there. Looks like Pirelli have weak sidewalls as well. I think all small nudges with a front wing have resulted in punctures the last few years.

Anyway, tires are not very exciting. and we do not notice if they are a second quicker or slower unless we look at the timing sheets.

#2331 flyboy

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:37

If I am on the Pirelli board I have had it with the continual complaints about the tires that are only what Bernie and the FIA asked for, and today was the final straw.... millions of consumers watching my tires explode repeatedly. Consumers don't know about sharp curbs... they expect their tires to stand up when they nudge a curb.
I am telling the rest of the board that it is time to call an end to our involvement in the fiasco that is current F-1 and let some other tire company deal with the idiocy of the FIA, Bernie and the teams.

#2332 PretentiousBread

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:40

Someone investigates the problem and comes up with a plausible cause and all you can do is rubbish him


Missing the point - the tyres are not fit for purpose. They are too fragile for the demands of the combination of an F1 car and an F1 circuit. What is causing the duff tyres to explode is of secondary importance to the tyres being duff.

#2333 HP

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:42

Not all kerbs are the same - I wonder how close you have ever been to one?

You do know the procedures? Michelin's failure at Indy 2005 was to not take proper note of the resurfacing of the track. I don't know if Pirelli did their home work or not in Silverstone, but it's their expertise and responsibility to provide tires that don't explode. And today we've seen that these tires even damaged the floor of those F1 cars in a way never seen before. And Kimi had some tire debris flying at him during the race.

IMO no excuse will do under these circumstances.

#2334 kimster89

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:42

I think we can agree that after the secret test Mercedes got on top of its tyre issues. 3 races and no new blunder, i think today Mercedes was even better with tyres than Lotus.

#2335 smitten

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:43

What is causing the duff tyres to explode is of secondary importance to the tyres being duff.


Duff logic. They are not fit for purpose if they are exploding when being used in the manner they were contracted to be used in. Teams running them backwards, at low pressures, at steep camber or toe-in could all be outside guidance and contribute to the failures. Or they could just be sh!t.


#2336 ExFlagMan

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:46

You do know the procedures? Michelin's failure at Indy 2005 was to not take proper note of the resurfacing of the track. I don't know if Pirelli did their home work or not in Silverstone, but it's their expertise and responsibility to provide tires that don't explode. And today we've seen that these tires even damaged the floor of those F1 cars in a way never seen before. And Kimi had some tire debris flying at him during the race.

IMO no excuse will do under these circumstances.

If it is a kerb problem the it is a FIA issue for not inspecting the circuit properly - and that should not be done by just driving round the circuit on a Thursday afternoon before the GP as usually happens.

#2337 PretentiousBread

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:48

Duff logic. They are not fit for purpose if they are exploding when being used in the manner they were contracted to be used in. Teams running them backwards, at low pressures, at steep camber or toe-in could all be outside guidance and contribute to the failures. Or they could just be sh!t.


And how does it reflect on the tyre manufacturer when the tyres work better the wrong way around? And why did Bridgestone or Michelin not have the same degree of repeated failures? Were teams not pushing the envelope back then?

#2338 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:49

Why not just let the teams choose Which tyres they use from the 3 available


Because you'd bring 4 compounds to each race and everyone would home in on one of those.

#2339 harrys

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:50

Putting a new set of tyres on should not give you a 3 second advantage. This is what is happening at the moment. F1 is DOMINATED by tyres at the moment, and we just can't appreciate the real skills of the drivers - and engineers.

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#2340 Diablobb81

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:51

Has Gary Anderson ever been right about anything in his capacity as analyst?

#2341 HP

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:52

If I am on the Pirelli board I have had it with the continual complaints about the tires that are only what Bernie and the FIA asked for, and today was the final straw.... millions of consumers watching my tires explode repeatedly. Consumers don't know about sharp curbs... they expect their tires to stand up when they nudge a curb.
I am telling the rest of the board that it is time to call an end to our involvement in the fiasco that is current F-1 and let some other tire company deal with the idiocy of the FIA, Bernie and the teams.

There is a difference between tire performance and tire safety. The problem today was not the tire performance, but an unsafe build of the tires. And the responsibility for that has to lay squarly at Pirellis feet. Whether they like it or not.

Were FIA could improve is to homologate a tire, and if changes are needed have all teams attending the tests, and then rehomologate. Friday testing alone might be incoonclusive, because as it happened the weather plays a big part in this too.

I was really wondering why Ferrari had issues on Saturday, but today they were all gone as temperatures changed. And that leads me to another question.

I can live with tires that start degrading heavily if you abuse them, but have they be very sensitive to ambient or track temperatures? I hope not. Because that IMO plays a big part with the current tussle, and that is a problem that only Pirelli can resolve.


#2342 Atreiu

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:53

You do know the procedures? Michelin's failure at Indy 2005 was to not take proper note of the resurfacing of the track. I don't know if Pirelli did their home work or not in Silverstone, but it's their expertise and responsibility to provide tires that don't explode. And today we've seen that these tires even damaged the floor of those F1 cars in a way never seen before. And Kimi had some tire debris flying at him during the race.

IMO no excuse will do under these circumstances.



Alonso could have been smacked head on full throttle...

#2343 harrys

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:54

I'd personally like to go back to one durable compound. Forget all this prime and option nonsense - seriously what is the point of making teams use two compounds?

Bring back refuelling as well - that certainly added to the dynamic of a race.

#2344 ardbeg

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 14:54

Putting a new set of tyres on should not give you a 3 second advantage. This is what is happening at the moment. F1 is DOMINATED by tyres at the moment, and we just can't appreciate the real skills of the drivers - and engineers.

I think that is exactly what they should do. But it should not drop 3 seconds per lap just because you go too hot in a few corners. If the tires make consistent lap times until they die, there will only be passing in the pits and with DRS.

#2345 HP

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 15:00

If it is a kerb problem the it is a FIA issue for not inspecting the circuit properly - and that should not be done by just driving round the circuit on a Thursday afternoon before the GP as usually happens.

Seems you don't know that these changes are normally announced long before. In the case if Indy it was almost half a year before hand, where the track owners gave note to the tire manufacturers. I don't know if the current procedures need all to go through FIA. But I'm sure we will hear some day. Also let it be said, that in other races,.where there were problems with kerbs at a track, they could fix that in a matter of hours. As I said in a post above, these tires are too temperature sensitive, so that what teams learn on Friday or Saturday, might not be relevant on Sunday at all. Pirelli fix that, and things should work out OK for everyone. Meaning with less temperature sensitivity they could have found out about the tires before and could have found a solution.


#2346 HP

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 15:11

I'd personally like to go back to one durable compound. Forget all this prime and option nonsense - seriously what is the point of making teams use two compounds?

Bring back refuelling as well - that certainly added to the dynamic of a race.

PR for the tire company. This idea was introduced after complaints from Bridgestone that nobody talks about their tires, so they came with the idea of different compounds. Seems Pirelli has taken things to the other extreme.

Back to Bridgestone. The idea of different compounds was very palatable for Max Mosley, because he likes strategy (he mentioned that for him a F1 race is a bit like a chess game...). So the idea was Ok'ed. People were confused so the added different colors for us to be able to tell who's on which tire.

I still think the only way to make racing less predictable is to simply reduce the pit/driver communication, and the tools teams are allowed to bring in to set up their cars. We're just lucky, that with all the equipment they still can't foresee a component failure like Vettel had today. But in general, tire compounds, refueling can be done away with, if teams can't be so precise anymore about their setup, and in the race can't instruct drivers on the settings a driver has to dial. DRS can then be done away with it too, because a good driver will understand when he can set up and make an overtake move.

Edited by HP, 30 June 2013 - 15:12.


#2347 SenorSjon

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 15:11

Not all kerbs are the same - I wonder how close you have ever been to one?

They were fine for GP2, GP3, Porsche Supercup and other support classes this weekend and LMP1 a short while ago. All with the same kerbs.

#2348 alfa1

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 15:15

Forget all this prime and option nonsense - seriously what is the point of making teams use two compounds?



Rather ironically, the point of the rule was so that the TV commentators would talk about tyres.

Right now, I'm sure Pirelli would wish they were talking about something, anything, else.


#2349 sopa

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 15:18

If the previous races were like "like it or not, it's your decision what you think" then that was literally a DISASTER.

People complained that Pirelli tyres have to be conserved so much nobody can race on them. Now today drivers were very racy, battling for positions, but look at the cost at which it came.: :stoned:

Pirelli Quality : solve one problem, get another instead!

Yeah I think we need to get back to Monaco snail-racing tyres. At least they didn't explode... If that's the best Pirelli can provide.:p

#2350 Diablobb81

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Posted 30 June 2013 - 18:38

I'll just leave this :
""Well the team tried to keep us as updated as they can but it's a bit of a moving target for them as well," Webber explained.

"This is not a slow circuit, it's very quick and we are committed to the high speed stuff 100 percent most of the time so... yeah it's not December yet so I'll stay quiet."

Asked how much input the drivers have in the tyre situation, he replied: "We've been trying to have input for the last three years.

"We are part of the package, part of the show and the show goes on by the looks of it."

And Esteban had a front left failure.

Edited by Diablobb81, 30 June 2013 - 18:41.