Jump to content


Photo
* * * - - 6 votes

New Pirelli tyres and DRS - a disaster for F1 and racing? Part 2 [merged]


  • Please log in to reply
2686 replies to this topic

#2351 DaddyCool

DaddyCool
  • Member

  • 725 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 30 June 2013 - 18:54

It's high time F1 pulled out its head off its a$$. This should be the final point for coming up with a clear, level-headed solution for this situation (yeah fat chance).

I bet casual viewers are really entertained by this political clusterf*** and tires blowing up left and right cleading to red flags.

Advertisement

#2352 charly0418

charly0418
  • Member

  • 2,249 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 30 June 2013 - 19:00

Some strong rumors out there of a possible drivers boycott for the race.

Personally, I dont think they have the guts to get together and do this, but if they do, RESPECT!

#2353 BoschKurve

BoschKurve
  • Member

  • 1,525 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 30 June 2013 - 19:09

Some strong rumors out there of a possible drivers boycott for the race.

Personally, I dont think they have the guts to get together and do this, but if they do, RESPECT!


The drivers won't boycott anything.

As we've already seen, they do not want to bite the hand that feeds them. When they started getting too critical of the Pirelli Silly Putty Specials, they suddenly became rather mum on the entire subject altogether. Paul Di Resta continues maintaining that the farce is on the up and up even though we all know this is not accurate in any regard. However, Paul has his marching orders from upstairs.

#2354 PretentiousBread

PretentiousBread
  • Member

  • 2,906 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 30 June 2013 - 19:23

I'll just leave this :
""Well the team tried to keep us as updated as they can but it's a bit of a moving target for them as well," Webber explained.

"This is not a slow circuit, it's very quick and we are committed to the high speed stuff 100 percent most of the time so... yeah it's not December yet so I'll stay quiet."

Asked how much input the drivers have in the tyre situation, he replied: "We've been trying to have input for the last three years.

"We are part of the package, part of the show and the show goes on by the looks of it."

And Esteban had a front left failure.



:lol: :up:

Another peach from Webber, love this guy. His honesty will be sorely missed next year.

#2355 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 30 June 2013 - 19:38

Whiting almost stopped race (based on safety concerns) - Autosport.

#2356 BoschKurve

BoschKurve
  • Member

  • 1,525 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 30 June 2013 - 19:45

Whiting almost stopped race (based on safety concerns) - Autosport.


Whiting has a history of not stopping races when they should be stopped, and stopping races when they shouldn't be.

Not surprised he didn't bother stopping today's race. If ever a race should have been stopped, this was the one simply because watching the same tire fail on multiple cars to me was enough to put a stop.

I've noticed with F1, when something major goes wrong, it tends to crystallize at a single race weekend. One instance is never enough, multiple things happen.

I found myself thinking of the 1994 San Marino GP today just for the sheer idiocy on display by multiple parties regarding the technical regulations.

#2357 Kalmake

Kalmake
  • Member

  • 857 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 30 June 2013 - 21:54

It seems to me that Whiting isn't talking about aborting the race. He just considered red flag so marshalls wouldn't need to dodge cars. Everyone can change tyres during red flag, which is good if there are cuts.

#2358 bonjon1979a

bonjon1979a
  • Member

  • 4,333 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 30 June 2013 - 22:13

Where are all the people who were saying there's nothing wrong with the tyres, all is well, just because lotus and Ferrari are doing a better job the other teams are crying. This has been in the offing for months, teams have been trying to cling on to their perceived competitive advantage, refusing changes to make the tyres safer and look where we are. Lotus and Ferrari should be ashamed of themselves for rejecting the change to tyres. Sport is imploding, such a load of nonsense...

#2359 Fangiola

Fangiola
  • Member

  • 316 posts
  • Joined: May 13

Posted 30 June 2013 - 22:23

Where are all the people who were saying there's nothing wrong with the tyres, all is well, just because lotus and Ferrari are doing a better job the other teams are crying. This has been in the offing for months, teams have been trying to cling on to their perceived competitive advantage, refusing changes to make the tyres safer and look where we are. Lotus and Ferrari should be ashamed of themselves for rejecting the change to tyres. Sport is imploding, such a load of nonsense...


Ferrari singing a different tune now. Although Lotus still keeping mum and cowering in a corner

Advertisement

#2360 bonjon1979a

bonjon1979a
  • Member

  • 4,333 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 30 June 2013 - 22:31

Ferrari singing a different tune now. Although Lotus still keeping mum and cowering in a corner

Any idiot could see that the problems had with tyres could also visit their own team. So short sighted if Ferrari and lotus fans. Both teams are heading only one way in the wcc AND we get dangerous tyres. Lose lose situation.

#2361 OO7

OO7
  • Member

  • 12,071 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 30 June 2013 - 23:07

Where are all the people who were saying there's nothing wrong with the tyres, all is well, just because lotus and Ferrari are doing a better job the other teams are crying. This has been in the offing for months, teams have been trying to cling on to their perceived competitive advantage, refusing changes to make the tyres safer and look where we are. Lotus and Ferrari should be ashamed of themselves for rejecting the change to tyres. Sport is imploding, such a load of nonsense...

There is nothing wrong with the tyres. Pirelli was asked to create a tyre to improve the show and what a spectacle we had. It would have been better if the blow-outs were spread more evenly around the corners of the car, rather than being confined to the left rear, so Pirelli need to work on this and a few all wheel blow-outs with showers of sparks as the planks rubs against the ground would be quite exciting. They should also consider introducing sympathetic/collateral blow-outs, in which the primary blow-out is of such force that it destroys the actual wheel sending high speed metal projectiles in all directions with the aim of puncturing other tyres in the vicinity.

So well done Pirelli, keep up the good work.

To be fair the teams are to blame also.

#2362 Tenmantaylor

Tenmantaylor
  • Member

  • 8,704 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 30 June 2013 - 23:52

People still getting confused between tyres designed to degrade and poorly designed tyres that explode during normal use way before being worn out. Pirelli need a better construction, not a different deg curve. Construction and rubber used in the tread are separate things. Yes they interact but look how few delams there were during the Michelin/Bridgestone years under normal use when those tyres were pushed to their deg limits. It's Pirelli's inadequate construction that is the prime problem here. Even if that kerb contributed the tyres should stand up to that.

#2363 black magic

black magic
  • Member

  • 4,018 posts
  • Joined: June 00

Posted 01 July 2013 - 01:09

if that was absolutely fine tyres then I'd hate to see malfunctioning ones.

to those that believe due to drivers using the kerbs then what have you watched in the last few years? drivers ahve taken as much kerbs as possible regardless of whether they should

i cannot understand how whiting let race continue given he had graphic evidence that others such as vettel did not suffer tyre failure by pure chance, debris could easily have struck a driver and serious injury accident let alone the car involved.

specifically because the reason for delamination was not known the race should have been red flagged.

and we saw how drivers respond. continued to use kerbs, drive to their limit on the fresh tyres and hopijng that no delamination would occur - no sense of self preservation.

and now we will watch various teams try and use these incidents not for genuine safety but becasue through the excuse of safety they may be able to change tyres to suit their personal team agenda.

not a proud day for f1 all round other than the courage or stupidity of the drivers




#2364 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 01 July 2013 - 05:54

Newey

...
sort of catastrophic failures that we have had today,” said Newey.

“Safety wise, there are potentially two issues. There’s the car that has the failure having an accident due to that failure, but also suddenly you’ve got three kg or so of tread flying around.

“If that hits the following car (driver) on the helmet, it doesn’t bear thinking about.”

...


What if...





I should add, this safety related discussion is getting rather old, and I am unable to even begin comprehending how anyone, here or in paddock, can defend status quo.

Edited by Sakae, 01 July 2013 - 05:59.


#2365 boldhakka

boldhakka
  • Member

  • 2,802 posts
  • Joined: September 10

Posted 01 July 2013 - 05:59

This entire season is a ridiculous clusterf*** because of the tyres. In many different ways. I wonder what they'll toss into the ring next.

#2366 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 18,789 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 01 July 2013 - 06:22

People still getting confused between tyres designed to degrade and poorly designed tyres that explode during normal use way before being worn out. Pirelli need a better construction, not a different deg curve. Construction and rubber used in the tread are separate things. Yes they interact but look how few delams there were during the Michelin/Bridgestone years under normal use when those tyres were pushed to their deg limits. It's Pirelli's inadequate construction that is the prime problem here. Even if that kerb contributed the tyres should stand up to that.


:up:

Although I'd say people aren't really getting confused, they rather use the failures as welcome, if misleading, ammunition to argue for less degrading tyres with which their favourite teams are supposed to become faster.

#2367 Timstr11

Timstr11
  • Member

  • 9,117 posts
  • Joined: May 02

Posted 01 July 2013 - 06:33

:up:

Although I'd say people aren't really getting confused, they rather use the failures as welcome, if misleading, ammunition to argue for less degrading tyres with which their favourite teams are supposed to become faster.

That argument would amaze me.

Remind which were the 2 fastest teams the past weekend? Weren't these teams supposed to suffer with these tyres?

It's time many of you fans also become fans of the sport.
Felipe Massa said he does not care who will be advantaged or disadvantaged :up:
This is a serious safety problem that needs to be addressed.

#2368 bonjon1979a

bonjon1979a
  • Member

  • 4,333 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 01 July 2013 - 07:01

:up:

Although I'd say people aren't really getting confused, they rather use the failures as welcome, if misleading, ammunition to argue for less degrading tyres with which their favourite teams are supposed to become faster.


Blimey, are you for real? Alonso nearly wore 40 kg of rubber and steel at 190 mph, that could've been potentially cost him his life. You've got such a craven view of the world if you really think that people are bringing this up because they want their team to do better. This is a safety issue, it is really dangerous at the moment, something needs to change.

#2369 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 18,789 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 01 July 2013 - 07:10

Blimey, are you for real? Alonso nearly wore 40 kg of rubber and steel at 190 mph, that could've been potentially cost him his life. You've got such a craven view of the world if you really think that people are bringing this up because they want their team to do better. This is a safety issue, it is really dangerous at the moment, something needs to change.


That argument would amaze me.

Remind which were the 2 fastest teams the past weekend? Weren't these teams supposed to suffer with these tyres?

It's time many of you fans also become fans of the sport.
Felipe Massa said he does not care who will be advantaged or disadvantaged :up:
This is a serious safety problem that needs to be addressed.


Nobody denies that. Just, as Tenmantaylor says and I agree with, it's a separate issue to the degradation issues some teams face (or faced in the past).

And yes, I do feel that some people deliberately mix up the two issues, using the urgent safety concerns to argue for their existing cause of more durable tyres.

No reason to get excited. Well, unless the shoe fits, of course.

Edited by as65p, 01 July 2013 - 07:11.


#2370 DS27

DS27
  • Member

  • 1,474 posts
  • Joined: February 11

Posted 01 July 2013 - 07:25

I'm finding it hard to believe there are still people defending the tyres in this situation, and blaming the track / kerbs, etc. It's just nonsense. This isn't touring cars at Thruxton, where there are known issues with high deg due to the track surface and teams are told to stay off the kerbs at the chicane for the first lap or two, and not to run too much camber. This was F1 at Silverstone, a track with no historic issues.

I don't recall seeing anything like this in over 40 years of watching F1. The actual construction aspect of an F1 tyre should have a huge safety tolerance built in when it comes to issues such as riding kerbs, etc, in the same way the wire ropes for a passenger lift designed for 10 people could hold 100. The drivers, CW, and even Pirelli acknowledge there's an issue but some on this forum don't - go figure.

Edited by DS27, 01 July 2013 - 07:28.


#2371 OO7

OO7
  • Member

  • 12,071 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 01 July 2013 - 07:30

I'm finding it hard to believe there are still people defending the tyres in this situation, and blaming the track / kerbs, etc. It's just nonsense. This isn't touring cars at Thruxton, where there are known issues with high deg due to the track surface and teams are told to stay off the kerbs at the chicane for the first lap or two, and not to run too much camber. This was F1 at Silverstone, a track with no historic issues.

I don't recall seeing anything like this in over 40 years of watching F1. The actual construction aspect of an F1 tyre should have a huge safety tolerance built in when it comes to issues such as riding kerbs, etc, in the same way the wire ropes for a passenger lift designed for 10 people could hold 100. The drivers, CW, and even Pirelli acknowledge there's an issue but some on this forum don't - go figure.

It is very obvious there is a serious issue with the tyres and as you mentioned Pirelli is also unhappy with the situation, which is one of the reasons they have been pushing for more tests.

#2372 bonjon1979a

bonjon1979a
  • Member

  • 4,333 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 01 July 2013 - 07:36

I'm finding it hard to believe there are still people defending the tyres in this situation, and blaming the track / kerbs, etc. It's just nonsense. This isn't touring cars at Thruxton, where there are known issues with high deg due to the track surface and teams are told to stay off the kerbs at the chicane for the first lap or two, and not to run too much camber. This was F1 at Silverstone, a track with no historic issues.

I don't recall seeing anything like this in over 40 years of watching F1. The actual construction aspect of an F1 tyre should have a huge safety tolerance built in when it comes to issues such as riding kerbs, etc, in the same way the wire ropes for a passenger lift designed for 10 people could hold 100. The drivers, CW, and even Pirelli acknowledge there's an issue but some on this forum don't - go figure.


You're absolutely spot on. The bizarre thing is that people are saying that it's merc and red bull trying to get an advantage by going back to old tyres yet they seem to be doing alright with the current tyres, 1st and 2nd in the wcc.

#2373 Cesc

Cesc
  • Member

  • 1,074 posts
  • Joined: March 11

Posted 01 July 2013 - 08:14

After these 8 races, the tire issue is a joke.
The teams that were strong before thanks to the tires are now going backwards, some teams complain about the tires and...oh, they start to win. Tires are buggy, to say the least and are becoming dangerous. Pirelli changes to the tires are unclear and they don't really know what is going on... F1 is pathetical this year. I'm deeply disappointed.

#2374 ardbeg

ardbeg
  • Member

  • 2,672 posts
  • Joined: March 13

Posted 01 July 2013 - 08:26

I'm finding it hard to believe there are still people defending the tyres in this situation, and blaming the track / kerbs, etc. It's just nonsense. This isn't touring cars at Thruxton, where there are known issues with high deg due to the track surface and teams are told to stay off the kerbs at the chicane for the first lap or two, and not to run too much camber. This was F1 at Silverstone, a track with no historic issues.

I don't recall seeing anything like this in over 40 years of watching F1. The actual construction aspect of an F1 tyre should have a huge safety tolerance built in when it comes to issues such as riding kerbs, etc, in the same way the wire ropes for a passenger lift designed for 10 people could hold 100. The drivers, CW, and even Pirelli acknowledge there's an issue but some on this forum don't - go figure.

Yes, but remember the first races? A F1 race was like watching grannies on the way to church in their Ford Fiestas. The tire wore badly and so, but they did not explode. Now all of a sudden we have racing drivers going for it in corners, driving flat out like there is no tomorrow. I seriously that is in the contract FiA have with Pirelli.

Next race will be fine, just a bit slower.

Edited by ardbeg, 01 July 2013 - 08:27.


#2375 fullthrottle

fullthrottle
  • Member

  • 489 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 01 July 2013 - 08:29

Davidson analyses tyre failures

Looks like Pirelli changed somthing... and it didn't really help was it?

#2376 ExFlagMan

ExFlagMan
  • Member

  • 2,650 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 01 July 2013 - 08:36

Blimey, are you for real? Alonso nearly wore 40 kg of rubber and steel at 190 mph, that could've been potentially cost him his life. You've got such a craven view of the world if you really think that people are bringing this up because they want their team to do better. This is a safety issue, it is really dangerous at the moment, something needs to change.

Not sure where you got 40kg for a F1 tyre. Last time I picked up a F1 wheel and tyre it didn't seem that heavy, in fact I was surprised just how light it was.
Not sure of the exact figures but I have seen 12 kg mentioned for a Pirelli front tyre, so a I guess a rear would be something like 18-20 kg.
Still not something you want flying about too much.

One interesting point I noticed when GA looked at the turn 4 kerb was that there where 2 mounting pads for 'sausage kerbs' in the green painted concrete beyond the saw-tooth kerb. I wonder why they where not installed as it might have dissuaded the drivers from using so much kerbing - though looking at some of the super slo-mo shots from some races they still feel the need to bounce over them.

#2377 SenorSjon

SenorSjon
  • Member

  • 3,103 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 01 July 2013 - 08:39

The spring that hit Massa was about 800-900 grams. A tire weighs much more, but luckily it is not made of metal. Still, we were very close of seeing a driver with a rubber flap on his visor or a rubber flap wedged in the airbox. That would be rare, an engine failure due to the tires. Bet the team won't get a free 9th engine.

#2378 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 01 July 2013 - 08:43

Not sure where you got 40kg for a F1 tyre. Last time I picked up a F1 wheel and tyre it didn't seem that heavy, in fact I was surprised just how light it was.
Not sure of the exact figures but I have seen 12 kg mentioned for a Pirelli front tyre, so a I guess a rear would be something like 18-20 kg.
Still not something you want flying about too much.

One interesting point I noticed when GA looked at the turn 4 kerb was that there where 2 mounting pads for 'sausage kerbs' in the green painted concrete beyond the saw-tooth kerb. I wonder why they where not installed as it might have dissuaded the drivers from using so much kerbing - though looking at some of the super slo-mo shots from some races they still feel the need to bounce over them.

A loose spring almost killed Massa once, and as Newey said, imagine that 3 kg heavy tire debris will hit you onto a face shield in high speed...

#2379 johnmhinds

johnmhinds
  • Member

  • 3,295 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 01 July 2013 - 08:51

Davidson analyses tyre failures

Looks like Pirelli changed somthing... and it didn't really help was it?



Isn't the real question why is Pirelli changing anything at all?

The last couple of years we've had tyres that didn't fall apart, and this year they are being fancy and messing around race to race by changing the way the tyres are constructed seemingly for no positive reasons and asking teams to run these new tyre designs without adequately testing them.

They know they have no testing sessions to dick about with new designs so why not stick with tyre constriction methods that were working just fine.

Advertisement

#2380 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 01 July 2013 - 08:57

Davidson analyses tyre failures

Looks like Pirelli changed somthing... and it didn't really help was it?

What he say? I can't watch it.

Edited by ivand911, 01 July 2013 - 08:58.


#2381 Ferrari2183

Ferrari2183
  • Member

  • 10,157 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 01 July 2013 - 08:58

Davidson analyses tyre failures

Looks like Pirelli changed somthing... and it didn't really help was it?

This is my thinking too. If you look at Hamilton's failure you see there is absolutely nothing left of the tyre except the shoulders. Can a steel belt be ripped into 100 different pieces?

I'm convinced Purelli have made more changes than they were supposed to. Anyway, It has reached boiling now and a revision to 2012 spec is in order although I still think the earlier solution where the tyre remains inflated to be the best.

#2382 muramasa

muramasa
  • Member

  • 4,604 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:01

Isn't the real question why is Pirelli changing anything at all?

The last couple of years we've had tyres that didn't fall apart, and this year they are being fancy and messing around race to race by changing the way the tyres are constructed seemingly for no positive reasons and asking teams to run these new tyre designs without adequately testing them.

They know they have no testing sessions to dick about with new designs so why not stick with tyre constriction methods that were working just fine.

wondering that too.
could be about cost cutting in material or manufacturing process. maybe there's not much incentives to prioritize quality?


#2383 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 18,789 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:01

This is my thinking too. If you look at Hamilton's failure you see there is absolutely nothing left of the tyre except the shoulders. Can a steel belt be ripped into 100 different pieces?

I'm convinced Purelli have made more changes than they were supposed to. Anyway, It has reached boiling now and a revision to 2012 spec is in order although I still think the earlier solution where the tyre remains inflated to be the best.


Funnily enough, the delamination instead of deflation seemed safe enough, and that was also Pirellis initial stance. Then they supposedly started to worry about how it might look to the audience and set about improving it... :drunk:

#2384 ivand911

ivand911
  • Member

  • 8,152 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:05

This is my thinking too. If you look at Hamilton's failure you see there is absolutely nothing left of the tyre except the shoulders. Can a steel belt be ripped into 100 different pieces?

I'm convinced Purelli have made more changes than they were supposed to. Anyway, It has reached boiling now and a revision to 2012 spec is in order although I still think the earlier solution where the tyre remains inflated to be the best.

I don't think it is the best , because this mean delamination. With steel belt this is what is going to happen. I also think tyre belt disappear in Silverstone tyres. I don't think this was 2013 tyres with just different glue. If this was steel belt and side wall is punctured I still think that steel belt will stay intact and will just roll out of the rim.


#2385 bonjon1979a

bonjon1979a
  • Member

  • 4,333 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:05

Not sure where you got 40kg for a F1 tyre. Last time I picked up a F1 wheel and tyre it didn't seem that heavy, in fact I was surprised just how light it was.
Not sure of the exact figures but I have seen 12 kg mentioned for a Pirelli front tyre, so a I guess a rear would be something like 18-20 kg.
Still not something you want flying about too much.

One interesting point I noticed when GA looked at the turn 4 kerb was that there where 2 mounting pads for 'sausage kerbs' in the green painted concrete beyond the saw-tooth kerb. I wonder why they where not installed as it might have dissuaded the drivers from using so much kerbing - though looking at some of the super slo-mo shots from some races they still feel the need to bounce over them.


Yeah, I got that wrong. I was thinking of whole wheel weight. Still even a 1kg piece at 190mph would do a lot of damage.

#2386 fullthrottle

fullthrottle
  • Member

  • 489 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:06

What he say? I can't watch it.


He show the tyre failures from earlier races where after failure there was a steel belt still remain around the rim, but yesterday's failures looks completely different.



#2387 bonjon1979a

bonjon1979a
  • Member

  • 4,333 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:06

This is my thinking too. If you look at Hamilton's failure you see there is absolutely nothing left of the tyre except the shoulders. Can a steel belt be ripped into 100 different pieces?

I'm convinced Purelli have made more changes than they were supposed to. Anyway, It has reached boiling now and a revision to 2012 spec is in order although I still think the earlier solution where the tyre remains inflated to be the best.


I'm not usually one to believe in conspiracies but in this case I can't see how something hasn't changed. The steel belt should've still been there, it's very, very odd.

#2388 johnmhinds

johnmhinds
  • Member

  • 3,295 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:10

This is my thinking too. If you look at Hamilton's failure you see there is absolutely nothing left of the tyre except the shoulders. Can a steel belt be ripped into 100 different pieces?

I'm convinced Purelli have made more changes than they were supposed to. Anyway, It has reached boiling now and a revision to 2012 spec is in order although I still think the earlier solution where the tyre remains inflated to be the best.


Are there still those steel belts in these new tyres?

I didn't see any evidence of anything like that during Hamilton's tyre failure, there are just small chunks of rubber going everywhere.

#2389 Szoelloe

Szoelloe
  • Member

  • 5,993 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:10

This is my thinking too. If you look at Hamilton's failure you see there is absolutely nothing left of the tyre except the shoulders. Can a steel belt be ripped into 100 different pieces?

I'm convinced Purelli have made more changes than they were supposed to. Anyway, It has reached boiling now and a revision to 2012 spec is in order although I still think the earlier solution where the tyre remains inflated to be the best.


:lol: that's exactly the idiocy that led to the Pirelli farce yesterday. What isn't so funny though that you even seem to be serious about it.

#2390 Ferrari2183

Ferrari2183
  • Member

  • 10,157 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:16

:lol: that's exactly the idiocy that led to the Pirelli farce yesterday. What isn't so funny though that you even seem to be serious about it.

What is your problem? Look at the earlier failures and see how the drivers remained in control of the car as opposed to yesterday.

When the entire carcass is removed it becomes a lot more tricky. Just ask Heikki... He had a bad crash from a ruptured tyre that led to him being hospitalized in 2008.

You can make an argument that tyres shouldn't fail in the first place but should a failure happen even if 2012 tyres are used we will be left with a situation like yesterday where it explodes of the rim. So pick your poison man.

#2391 Ferrari2183

Ferrari2183
  • Member

  • 10,157 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:18

Are there still those steel belts in these new tyres?

I didn't see any evidence of anything like that during Hamilton's tyre failure, there are just small chunks of rubber going everywhere.

It doesn't look like it to me. Apparently Ferrari were also questioning it after Perez failure in FP.

#2392 johnmhinds

johnmhinds
  • Member

  • 3,295 posts
  • Joined: July 09

Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:29

It doesn't look like it to me. Apparently Ferrari were also questioning it after Perez failure in FP.


But they were blocked from making any changes to the tyres?

How does completely different construction methods to tyres we saw failing a few races ago line up with that?

Did they change the tyres anyway without the teams/FIA permission?

#2393 Szoelloe

Szoelloe
  • Member

  • 5,993 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:31

This is my thinking too. If you look at Hamilton's failure you see there is absolutely nothing left of the tyre except the shoulders. Can a steel belt be ripped into 100 different pieces?

I'm convinced Purelli have made more changes than they were supposed to. Anyway, It has reached boiling now and a revision to 2012 spec is in order although I still think the earlier solution where the tyre remains inflated to be the best.



What is your problem? Look at the earlier failures and see how the drivers remained in control of the car as opposed to yesterday.

When the entire carcass is removed it becomes a lot more tricky. Just ask Heikki... He had a bad crash from a ruptured tyre that led to him being hospitalized in 2008.

You can make an argument that tyres shouldn't fail in the first place but should a failure happen even if 2012 tyres are used we will be left with a situation like yesterday where it explodes of the rim. So pick your poison man.


Exactly, the tyres shouldn't fail at all. The steel mesh belt was there all right, it just ripped away. At 250km/h it hardly matters what hits the visor on a helmet, a 3 kg chunk of rubber, or a delaminated tyre tred. It has been discussed for months now, and somehow everyone seemed to settle into the warming thought that its safe, plus having random delaminations on random cars, somehow spices up the show. Pirelli is the tyre supplier, they should have the kick and most importantly the balls to tell the teams to go suck egg, and do what is necessary to run safe tyres. But no, they had to succumb to teams and now this.


#2394 fullthrottle

fullthrottle
  • Member

  • 489 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:32

But they were blocked from making any changes to the tyres?

How does completely different construction methods to tyres we saw failing a few races ago line up with that?

Did they change the tyres anyway without the teams/FIA permission?


That's my guess.


#2395 Ferrari2183

Ferrari2183
  • Member

  • 10,157 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:35

But they were blocked from making any changes to the tyres?

How does completely different construction methods to tyres we saw failing a few races ago line up with that?

Did they change the tyres anyway without the teams/FIA permission?

I don't know. I have the feeling that they've changed more than they were supposed to but some are saying that the increased bonding has led to another mode of failure which is plausible.

I just think that the changes go beyond just bonding because it doesn't look like there is a steel belt any longer.

#2396 Massa_f1

Massa_f1
  • Member

  • 3,599 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:40

Not really sure why Ferrari are one of the 3 teams to have said no to the tyre changes. I really would of thought after Massa got 2 punctures in one race a few races ago they would be calling for change. They obviously weren't to bothered, and it happed to Massa again at the Brit GP. I really can't see why Ferrari would not want the tyres changed. Lotus I can understand as they are close to becoming the only team on the grid not to have had a tyre fail this year.

#2397 Ferrari2183

Ferrari2183
  • Member

  • 10,157 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:44

Exactly, the tyres shouldn't fail at all. The steel mesh belt was there all right, it just ripped away. At 250km/h it hardly matters what hits the visor on a helmet, a 3 kg chunk of rubber, or a delaminated tyre tred. It has been discussed for months now, and somehow everyone seemed to settle into the warming thought that its safe, plus having random delaminations on random cars, somehow spices up the show. Pirelli is the tyre supplier, they should have the kick and most importantly the balls to tell the teams to go suck egg, and do what is necessary to run safe tyres. But no, they had to succumb to teams and now this.

Look man, you're always going to have tyre failures. They've been happening for decades.

What is stopping a ruptured tyre 2012 style from hitting a following driver? Any tyre failure is dangerous, I just happen to think that a ruptured tyre is even more dangerous.

The frequency of the failures earlier this year were of some concern for me but not the mode of failure. What happened yesterday was far more disturbing than just a delamination and this is exactly what you will get with a revision to kevlar with it possibly happening less frequently.

#2398 Szoelloe

Szoelloe
  • Member

  • 5,993 posts
  • Joined: December 06

Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:45

I don't know. I have the feeling that they've changed more than they were supposed to but some are saying that the increased bonding has led to another mode of failure which is plausible.

I just think that the changes go beyond just bonding because it doesn't look like there is a steel belt any longer.


How did you come to that conclusion?






#2399 ExFlagMan

ExFlagMan
  • Member

  • 2,650 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:49

I don't know. I have the feeling that they've changed more than they were supposed to but some are saying that the increased bonding has led to another mode of failure which is plausible.

I just think that the changes go beyond just bonding because it doesn't look like there is a steel belt any longer.

I have seen photos of marshals picking up bits from the practice session failure and you can see the steel belt. As I said yesterday, and backed up by another excellent TC3000 post, the stronger glue has just changed the resultant failure mode from delamination of the tread layer to carcase failure at the tyre shoulder. Basic cause is still probably cuts from debris and/or kerb contact damage.

If Pirelli had resorted to 2012 style Kevlar belts for Silverstone and get these type of failure then it would probably be even more worrying as there would be less of a fall-back solution.

Advertisement

#2400 Ferrari2183

Ferrari2183
  • Member

  • 10,157 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 01 July 2013 - 09:50

How did you come to that conclusion?

Look at Hamilton's failure. There was nothing left of the tyre apart from the sidewalls with white strings flapping around. Do you think it possible for a cross-weaved radial belt to be completely destroyed when it could previously withstand punctures?