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New Pirelli tyres and DRS - a disaster for F1 and racing? Part 2 [merged]


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#2601 pingu666

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Posted 15 October 2013 - 22:29

there's the sharp edges on the wings too



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#2602 ExFlagMan

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 07:06

The rules used to state that the front wing endplates had to have a minimum thickness of something like 10mm and have a rounded profile to minimise damaged to tyres during contact - this was back in the days of simple single plane wings and end plates. Not sure if it has been changed/updated to reflect the zillions of parts now present on the wings. Looking at the drawings in Autosport most of the wing parts do not seem to be very thick or have a rounded profile.

#2603 SenorSjon

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:42

The driving position isn't helping either. There is no way a driver can see the front end of the car.



#2604 David1976

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Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:54

Frankly, in my opinion, today's Pirelli tyres are a joke.

 

They are so fragile that drivers prefer not to attack.  Drivers dare not to lock up in a race so as to avoid huge wear/punctures.  Bring back Bridgestone!  Or any manufacturer capable of making F1 quality tyres for that matter.

 

It's a sad day when drivers do not drive anywhere near the limits of their cars capability because their tyres are sub standard.  



#2605 vista

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Posted 26 October 2013 - 18:31

Interesting comments from Alonso regarding the "randomness" of the Pirelli tyres:

 

http://www.dailymail...elli-tyres.html

 

"Set to set, it's a random tyre and you need to be lucky with the set you put on tomorrow."

 

I heard something similar last year from Button, I think; the tyres have different behaviour from set to set - even the same compounds. It highlights yet another flaw from the current tyres. 

 

When that is said, I think it is entertaining and good for the excitement when one tyre is very bad and the other a "proper" race tyre (more or less) as we see this weekend. We see different strategies which mix things up a bit. And the medium tyre is a good race tyre so it's not like Barcelona but more like China. 

 



#2606 David1976

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 11:19

Interesting comments from Alonso regarding the "randomness" of the Pirelli tyres:

 

http://www.dailymail...elli-tyres.html

 

"Set to set, it's a random tyre and you need to be lucky with the set you put on tomorrow."

 

I heard something similar last year from Button, I think; the tyres have different behaviour from set to set - even the same compounds. It highlights yet another flaw from the current tyres. 

 

Pirelli have not done a great job this time in F1.  Have we ever had so many complaints about tyres?

Tyre fragility is not the way to encourage close racing.

 

I am also tired (no pun intended) of hearing Paul Hembrey pass the buck and blame drivers and the teams.  Next year it will be even more critical.  Can you imagine the tryes lasting with all of the extra torque the new power plants are going to produce?

 

If the tyres have random characteristics because of poor quality control that is deeply concerning.



#2607 SenorSjon

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 11:29

No worries. Next year they will be crawling around to save fuel. The Pirelli's could be able to cope with that.



#2608 Massa_f1

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 11:42

Interesting comments from Alonso regarding the "randomness" of the Pirelli tyres:

 

http://www.dailymail...elli-tyres.html

 

"Set to set, it's a random tyre and you need to be lucky with the set you put on tomorrow."

 

I heard something similar last year from Button, I think; the tyres have different behaviour from set to set - even the same compounds. It highlights yet another flaw from the current tyres. 

 

When that is said, I think it is entertaining and good for the excitement when one tyre is very bad and the other a "proper" race tyre (more or less) as we see this weekend. We see different strategies which mix things up a bit. And the medium tyre is a good race tyre so it's not like Barcelona but more like China. 

 

 

I think it has been obvious for a while that the tyres are random from set to set, even on the same kind of tyre. 

 

Why can't the FIA let Pirelli test in Texas during the week between the final race, and then again in Brazil after the final race weekend. I remember F1 doing that in 98 when everybody was going to Bridgestone for the first time. Didn't they stay in Japan and test, and even drivers who had moved teams could jump in their new teams car. Just 24 hours after the final race. FIA really need to let Pirelli do something, because they appear to have no clue what they are doing without testing a proper up to date F1 car.



#2609 SenorSjon

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 12:39

Back then, testing was normal and F1 was more of a sport than it is these days.



#2610 ReeVe

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 12:58

I think it has been obvious for a while that the tyres are random from set to set, even on the same kind of tyre. 

 

Why can't the FIA let Pirelli test in Texas during the week between the final race, and then again in Brazil after the final race weekend. I remember F1 doing that in 98 when everybody was going to Bridgestone for the first time. Didn't they stay in Japan and test, and even drivers who had moved teams could jump in their new teams car. Just 24 hours after the final race. FIA really need to let Pirelli do something, because they appear to have no clue what they are doing without testing a proper up to date F1 car.

 

presumably cause it costs money to test, team personnel are exhausted, and they will do it next year anyways, with some planning



#2611 nosecone

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 15:00

Interesting comments from Alonso regarding the "randomness" of the Pirelli tyres:

 

http://www.dailymail...elli-tyres.html

 

"Set to set, it's a random tyre and you need to be lucky with the set you put on tomorrow."

 

I heard something similar last year from Button, I think; the tyres have different behaviour from set to set - even the same compounds. It highlights yet another flaw from the current tyres. 

 

When that is said, I think it is entertaining and good for the excitement when one tyre is very bad and the other a "proper" race tyre (more or less) as we see this weekend. We see different strategies which mix things up a bit. And the medium tyre is a good race tyre so it's not like Barcelona but more like China. 

 

 

 

The randomness could be caused by temperature. I remember a story in 2012(?) where they had to bring new tyres to a GP because the others got to cold on the flight to this GP. At those tyres who had to cope with cold temperatures some pieces of rubber delaminated. Thus you have to hope that your tyres were in a rather warm area in the airplane. This is horrible and shocking. You should believe that F1 is hightech and not a random product

 

another case: di Resta made 56 laps on the medium tyre in Canada. While Vettel the race winner Vettel did no more than 33 laps on the medium. I admit that the FI was a very tyre conserving car and that they tried ofthen very unusual strategies, but i doubt he had made it if he had the same tyre like all others. Di Resta used the mediums for 56 laps at the start of the race and not at the end where the car is lighter. He also had almost the same drop off like Vettel.

 

http://en.mclarenf-1...gp=899&hid=1_14 you see the gap is continuely increasing and before his pit stop he drove on his 56lap old tyres even faster than Vettel on his 33laps old tyres. i agree that this map is a bit inaccurate - Vettel didn't even use the softs according to this.

 

http://en.mclarenf-1...ta#.Um_M1BCmZHc here the lap times. His lap times became even faster towards the end. Either he hit the miracolous sweet spot of the Pirelli or he had a set of hard tyres which just had the name mediums


Edited by nosecone, 29 October 2013 - 15:05.


#2612 Snic

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 18:02

Hamilton admitted that this was the first race in years he could treat his car like a go-kart and push and defend. 

 

Real racing is back on the menu!



#2613 Disgrace

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 18:08

This race just demonstrated how the pecking order of circuits has been completely reversed. All of the circuits which provided a poor spectacle pre-2011 (Bahrain, Abu Dhabi, Hungary) are now providing good races. Until DRS is banned, traditionally good circuits such as Spa and Canada will remain artificially at the bottom of the barrel for racing unfortunately.



#2614 Snic

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 18:09

I HATE DRS with a passion but I have to say at least it's just about letting cars get alongside at the moment and not just breeze past



#2615 Disgrace

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 18:20

I HATE DRS with a passion but I have to say at least it's just about letting cars get alongside at the moment and not just breeze past

 

Given that the FIA systematically deploy DRS zones in the primary overtaking areas on the circuit, regardless of circuit, breezing past is always going to be result of DRS on the "good" circuits. Whether this is the real root problem isn't really tested as there's only one good example in three seasons of the FIA deploying it elsewhere on the circuit. That was Germany '11 and it was a cracker.



#2616 eronrules

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 18:34

good to see cars pushing like hell, pirelli finally have delivered a tire formula that doesn't distract from the racing aspect.

 

good to see too that DRS is getting more and more refined. 

 

i wrote earlier at other thread how the tilek dromes were coming alive with the new formula. TBH, DRS and Pirelli has nothing to do with old classic circuits being boring and  all.

 

the reason is simple, the old circuit layouts are simple and more aero dependent, they have negative camber corners, fast broad sweeps, and less of an challenge for these generation of cars,

 

the modern circuits employ fast, medium, slow corners with technical bits added along with longish straight which posses much challage to the car and drivers. that's what we've been seeing post Pirelli era. thing don't look too rosy for old circuits like monza or spa i'm afraid.

 

perhaps that's for the better, let's not drown in nostalgia. embrace the future.  :up:



#2617 Lights

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 21:01

I feel like Pirelli are being overlooked right now, they did well with tires so far this year. Not too much nonsense with some cars behaving completely different on a certain tire than another car, the drivers look like they're able to push more, and there's way less tire marbles off the racing line making fights better.



#2618 kimster89

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Posted 06 April 2014 - 21:05

Yes pirelli did awesome job. And it still degrades enough for 2 or 3 stop races and different strategies

#2619 peroa

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 17:51

“I think our Michelin tyres are a bit better, we can push them much harder and do over 700km on one set of tyres and more downforce as well so you can push an LMP1 car a bit more in the corners. So that was the surprising thing, but we did come a bit low on downforce here so I expect the car to become better. But you do have to restrict yourself and apply yourself a lot.”

 

http://www1.skysport...caterham-f1-car



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#2620 chipmcdonald

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 23:19

 we can push them much harder and do over 700km on one set of tyres and more downforce as well so you can push an LMP1 car a bit more in the corners.

 

Sad. This shouldn't be.



#2621 Myrvold

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 02:27

So, basically a no-stopper race if it'd been F1? Oh, I know the new gimmick in F1. No new fuel or tyres for 3 races! :)



#2622 KnucklesAgain

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 09:13

“I think our Michelin tyres are a bit better, we can push them much harder and do over 700km on one set of tyres and more downforce as well so you can push an LMP1 car a bit more in the corners. So that was the surprising thing, but we did come a bit low on downforce here so I expect the car to become better. But you do have to restrict yourself and apply yourself a lot.”

 

http://www1.skysport...caterham-f1-car

 

Yeah but he also says the LMP1 car adjusts its setup automatically corner by corner, and that the LMP1 has lots of DF for fewer HP while the F1 is the opposite. This certainly affects tyres. Plus of course, the F1 tyres are designed not to be able to do 700km on one set - if that's a good thing is up to you, but in any case we knew this and many people demanded less downforce for years.

 

Edit: That's not in the Sky quotes, but in the same/similar but longer quotes on AMuS:

http://www.auto-moto...to-8562601.html

 

"The power is impressive" says Lotterer about F1. "In a negative way also the grip has impressed me. It's really very little. You have to be very patient and hesitant with the throttle. In an LMP1 you feel more grip and can push more". Differences were quick to be recognized by Lotterer: "The cars are very opposite: Here in F1 you have a lot of power and little grip. In WEC we only have a bit over 600 HP, but a huge diffuser and very good tyres. You can push more in the corners than you think." But that's not all of the difference: "The WEC cars are a bit more complex. The engineers can program much more stuff, which the car then does automatically. For example, the car knows where it is on the lap and adjusts the settings automatically. The meetings are longer in WEC, but there is less to do in the car." "In WEC we have more work to do to monitor the fuel consumption . In F1 you are more occupied with DRS and activating various setup settings. I have to get used to that so that I always know what I'm doing. I'm approaching this step by step and try not to stress myself"

 


Edited by KnucklesAgain, 23 August 2014 - 12:48.


#2623 Obi Offiah

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Posted 08 September 2014 - 10:49

I thought DRS was pretty much perfect at Monza and the Pirelli tyres were good enough for the drivers to push.  The only car that was able to drive cleanly around others in the DRS zone (pit straight) was the Williams of Bottas and I believe that was primarily down to the characteristics of the car and not DRS.



#2624 Andy35

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 16:14

Both DRS and Pirelli  had a very good Singapore 2014 race,

 

Especially the tyres. 2 stops and 3 stops very close, no chance of any blow ups apart from in Lewis' mind as he worried about his lead ( to be expected ) and the two tyre compounds got closer and closer over the weekend as the track evolved. Which is what you want.

 

Apart from Lewis wondering about them few complaints from the drivers.

 

And lots of overtaking on a street circuit but not too easy, as lots of drivers complaining  So DRS also nicely judged.

 

Andy



#2625 Disgrace

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 16:21

Not sure I agree about the tyres, I found them much too soft. It was an unfortunate throwback to last year when everyone was conserving the tyres until the end, at which point it becomes a lottery if you've saved them enough to within a few corners. Without Hamilton pushing on an alternative strategy, it would have been overall dire viewing because everyone was running up to four seconds a lap slower than they otherwise could.



#2626 Goron3

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 17:44

Not sure I agree about the tyres, I found them much too soft. It was an unfortunate throwback to last year when everyone was conserving the tyres until the end, at which point it becomes a lottery if you've saved them enough to within a few corners. Without Hamilton pushing on an alternative strategy, it would have been overall dire viewing because everyone was running up to four seconds a lap slower than they otherwise could.

That was much more to do with the timing of the safety car, which came at the wrong time for most teams. Had it come out earlier/gone into pits earlier we would have had the Bulls and Williams make an extra stop and therefore they would have pushed like mad to get to the end (like Lewis did after the safety car).



#2627 Skinnyguy

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 17:49

Tyres were horrible. There was an all around superior compound and a marginal one only used because the rules forced the guys to do it.



#2628 Nonesuch

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 18:07

I'd agree that the timing of the safety car made quite a few teams adopt a strategy with a very long final stint, which led to the classic 'save the tyres' driving, resulting in the Bottas train and the uneventful 'battle' for 2nd that was hardly worthy of that description.

 

It was unfortunate that it played out the way it did, but there wasn't much to be done I guess. The slow recovery of Pérez's wing, coupled with all the usual safety car shenanigans (over 10% of the race), definitely exacerbated the situation though.


Edited by Nonesuch, 21 September 2014 - 18:08.


#2629 pdac

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 00:36

Tyres were horrible. There was an all around superior compound and a marginal one only used because the rules forced the guys to do it.

 

This.