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New Pirelli tyres and DRS - a disaster for F1 and racing? Part 2 [merged]


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#2651 Seanspeed

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Posted 19 October 2015 - 17:17

Agree and in fact, we have seen examples of drivers actually not wanting to be ahead at a certain point because they'd rather be the car behind with DRS (I remember Alonso and Hamilton having one or two situations like this)
 
I hate DRS and certainly don't think F1 is the better for having it.

1) Dont ever watch bike racing. Yea, it's often super exciting, but you'll HATE how dependent it is on tire saving and even this whole strategic positioning, where it might actually be a disadvantage to be ahead at certain times. I dont hate it, but you obviously will.

2) This situation you're describing is very rare in F1.

I appreciate DRS and definitely think F1 is better for having it.

I often go back and watch pre-DRS races and it's amazing how dull they are by comparison. Races that we consider 5-6/10's now were like 7-8/10's then. If we were lucky. We usually just prayed for rain each and every weekend because we knew the racing would suck otherwise.

Edited by Seanspeed, 19 October 2015 - 17:17.


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#2652 pdac

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Posted 19 October 2015 - 17:19

Less interference is what's needed. The solution to this is to remove DRS and blue flags. Make it so that you get no help passing ANY car and the teams will fix it themselves.


Edited by pdac, 19 October 2015 - 17:20.


#2653 SophieB

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Posted 19 October 2015 - 17:22

1) Dont ever watch bike racing. Yea, it's often super exciting, but you'll HATE how dependent it is on tire saving and even this whole strategic positioning, where it might actually be a disadvantage to be ahead at certain times. I dont hate it, but you obviously will.
 

 

OR he might really enjoy bike racing but still think at the same time how watching drivers/riders nearly tripping over themselves in an effort to be slower looks really stupid.



#2654 Otaku

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Posted 19 October 2015 - 17:24

Just yesterday I was watching the 1980 Brazilian GP and to the end there was an awesome battle between a young Prost in a McLaren and Patrese in an Arrows, and while watching it I was thinking 2 things:

 

a) how great it was that 2 cars could follow each other so close, they were "welded" (as we say in South America)

b) how DRS would have ****ed up everything, push a button, pass, end of it

 

 

I hope we get rid of this crap soon, be it by letting cars use some sort of ground effect again, making the front wing simpler and smaller, or whetever.

 

 

Watch from around 43:15

 

https://youtu.be/jq7H0OBsqr8?t=43m14s


Edited by Otaku, 19 October 2015 - 17:25.


#2655 MasterOfCoin

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Posted 19 October 2015 - 17:48

Just yesterday I was watching the 1980 Brazilian GP and to the end there was an awesome battle between a young Prost in a McLaren and Patrese in an Arrows, and while watching it I was thinking 2 things:

 

a) how great it was that 2 cars could follow each other so close, they were "welded" (as we say in South America)

b) how DRS would have ****ed up everything, push a button, pass, end of it

 

 

I hope we get rid of this crap soon, be it by letting cars use some sort of ground effect again, making the front wing simpler and smaller, or whetever.

 

 

Watch from around 43:15

 

https://youtu.be/jq7H0OBsqr8?t=43m14s

We have to remember that half of this problem has to do with the tracks, and in that video the track didn't have any gimmicky chicanes before the straights, combined with the cars having the aero of a refrigerator, made it possible for cars to follow each other closely.  :up:



#2656 GTRacer

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Posted 19 October 2015 - 18:13

 Besides Tyres and DRS why is there always a slow or a mickey mouse corner that leads to a straight, granted all tracks can't have a Parabolica, but to me this discourages overtaking attempts. 

Because its believed that aids overtaking possibilities as cars are not affected by the turbulent air so much in slower corners so in theory will be able to run closer through the slower corner & be closer as they head onto the straight.

 

It was an idea Tilke tried when he redesigned the A1-ring & it was felt it worked so he tried it again at Sepang & Hockenheim & again it was felt that the setup worked so everyone started doing it when altering circuits for the sake of overtaking.

 

To be honest I think that it was something that did work on the cars of the late 90s/early 2000's but that it hasn't worked as well on the cars from the past 10 odd years, In part because I think they have started designing the corners a bit too tight. You want a slow-ish corner thats got a more open exit for it to work as intended as otherwise you just have the car behind having to wait for the car ahead before getting on the throttle & that spreads them out too much.



#2657 zanquis

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Posted 19 October 2015 - 18:17

Back in the older days following a car closely was advantageous for the following cars. The slipstream allowed you to often overtake at a straight or when the driver up front would make a tiny error. With modern aerodynamic performance of the cars this is impossible for most drivers. They will destroy their tires as they loose to mych downforce, remember this started pre-pirelli already so the tires are not to blame. Old F1 cars where crude but powerful cars. Modern F1 cars have great aerodynamica and following a car close ruins it. A slipstream now gives minimal benefit and is offset by loss of cornerspeed.

So DRS is needed in F1 till they fix the aero issue. Otherwise we go back to boring F1 again. Cause the races of 10 years ago where boring as ****

#2658 Atreiu

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Posted 19 October 2015 - 18:30

DRS never was and never will be needed. It's just a straighline boost quick fix which does't even address the real problem of cars being too sensible to turbulence.

 

A push to pass button would have had the same effect, aid passing while doing nothing about turbulence.



#2659 GTRacer

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Posted 19 October 2015 - 18:52

So DRS is needed in F1 till they fix the aero issue.

Problem been that as long as DRS remains there is no incentive to do anything about the aero issue.

 

Look at 2017 for instance, There already moving away from the early talk of less aero & now talking more about more aero with a more powerful DRS. If DRS was never introduced all of the incentive would be to come up with regulations that actually improved the racing without the need for what most fans (Going by the recent surveys) now see as silly gimmicks.

 

 

In fact go back & look at the initial proposals for 2014, They were meant to include things that would benefit racing but when DRS was introduced & the teams saw it as working they back tracked on nearly all of those proposals & started talking about DRS removing the need to do anything else.

http://www.crash.net...ero-change.html


Edited by GTRacer, 19 October 2015 - 18:54.


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#2660 Marklar

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Posted 19 October 2015 - 19:03

Why has the Hungarian GP since the introduction DRS suddenly turned from the worst to the best race of the season, in almost every year? Because it is the only circuit where they really used DRS properly. They are always doing the mistake to use DRS on the areas of the circuit where overtaking is even without DRS well possible (challenging, but possible, thats what we want). So with DRS it has become easy. They failed to use the opportunity to place DRS somewhere where you cant overtake, but with DRS it would be *just* possible (but challenging). And thats whats happening in turn 1 in Hungary: prior DRS it was impossible, now its possible, but stil very difficult.

 

Personally I dont want DRS, fixing the turbolences would be enough. But *if* you want to use DRS, please place it somewhere where it makes sense...



#2661 ANF

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Posted 19 October 2015 - 19:28

They should remove DRS at half the circuits in 2016. Just do it. It's time to evaluate it after five seasons of DRS racing, and the only way to do that properly is to take it away and see what happens. Remember that the last time we had F1 cars racing without any devices that make overtaking easier or harder – be it traction control, KERS, the F-duct, or DRS – was in the early races of 2001.



#2662 Kucki

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Posted 19 October 2015 - 20:39

Because its believed that aids overtaking possibilities as cars are not affected by the turbulent air so much in slower corners so in theory will be able to run closer through the slower corner & be closer as they head onto the straight.

It was an idea Tilke tried when he redesigned the A1-ring & it was felt it worked so he tried it again at Sepang & Hockenheim & again it was felt that the setup worked so everyone started doing it when altering circuits for the sake of overtaking.

To be honest I think that it was something that did work on the cars of the late 90s/early 2000's but that it hasn't worked as well on the cars from the past 10 odd years, In part because I think they have started designing the corners a bit too tight. You want a slow-ish corner thats got a more open exit for it to work as intended as otherwise you just have the car behind having to wait for the car ahead before getting on the throttle & that spreads them out too much.

And that is the completely wrong thinking by Tilke that has ruined many of the race tracks.

The good overtaking opportunities do not come from

Slow corner - long straight - slow corner (Tilke way)

Better overtaking opportunities are from

Medium speed corner - long straight - slow corner

Why?

The dirty air aspect is not THE most deciding factor.

When you have 2 cars coming out of a slow corner, the car infront is able to accelerate for example 2 seconds earlier then the car behind, thats why shortly after that hairpin or slow corner, you see the car infront very fast increasing its gap to the car behind, can be up to 20 meter. This is a huge gap that is harder to close for the car following.

Now take a medium speed corner - long straight - slow corner variant. 2 cars can follow each other more closely through a short medium speed corner (in terms of distance gap) compared to the distance they have coming out of a slow corner. So the gap through a medium speed corner leading to a straight is shorter by comparison, that allows the car behind to be earlier in the tow of the car infront, as soon as the beginning of the straight. The medium speed corner following, can also be a good guide for the car behind about where to position the car in relation to the car infront.

Examples great overtaking corner opener, last corner at Interlagos going into the start finish straight. Or turn 1 Senna S heading to Turn 2. Or Red Bull Ring Turn 1 going to Turn 2. Or coming out of Eau Rouge, or coming out of Stavelot. Or coming out of Spoon Corner in Suzuka

It is the medium speed - long straight variants that are great for overtakings because the gap between 2 cars are not as big as coming out of a slow corner. It also looks more spectacular.

Future track designer will create much more sweeping, flowing, faster designs, like John Hugenholtz who created the Suzuka, Zolder, Zandvoort, Hockenheim Autodrom.

Edited by Kucki, 19 October 2015 - 20:43.


#2663 GTRacer

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Posted 19 October 2015 - 21:13

And that is the completely wrong thinking by Tilke that has ruined many of the race tracks.
 

Its not just Tilke, A lot of circuit owners/designers see that as been the way to produce overtaking & its why so many of the newer circuits tend to do the same & why many existing circuits make alterations to create a slower corner onto a long straight.

 

The slow corner-straight-slow corner theory wasn't something plucked out of thin air by Tilke either as I understand it was something that was a belief of many race drivers back when generating more overtaking started to become a thing in the 90s & it was this which led Tilke to try out the theory at A1-ring with turn 1 & the run down to turn 2. And like I said in my earlier post it was seen at the time to have worked as everyone expected which is why Tilke & others started incorporating the idea into new circuits/existing circuits from there on.

 

That was the trend of 15-20 years ago & the trend of the past few years has been a wide entry into a slow corner (Turn 1 at COTA for example) & again that was an idea that Tilke picked up from drivers as they recommended it when he asked them for ideas when he was designing the Indian F1 circuit & testing some things on the teams simulators.

 

 

Looking at Non-Tilke circuits the old Varianta Alta chicane at Imola was tightened in 2006 to try & create a slow corner-straght-slow(ish) corner on the run to rivazza. The tight/slow chicane was installed before the final corner at Barcelona for similar reasons.

The layout at COTA was actually not designed by Tilke (It came from Tavo Hellmund) & it went with similar design ideas with the corners at either end of the 2 long straights.

 

 

BTW I'm not necessarily saying I agree with these design philosophies, Just pointing out where they came from & why there used. I do however believe that in some cases the slow corner, long straight, slow corner idea does work as long as the corner onto the straight isn't too tight/slow. Hockenheim is a good example of the idea done right as teh corner leading onto the straight isn't too tight & is quite open on the exit which allows for varied lines. Certainly helped put on 2 good DTM races over the weekend.



#2664 Seanspeed

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Posted 19 October 2015 - 22:27

Less interference is what's needed. The solution to this is to remove DRS and blue flags. Make it so that you get no help passing ANY car and the teams will fix it themselves.

No, they wont. Teams cant fix the aerodynamic problem with dirty air. It is inherently unfixable.

OR he might really enjoy bike racing but still think at the same time how watching drivers/riders nearly tripping over themselves in an effort to be slower looks really stupid.

Nobody ever 'trips over themselves' to be slower, though. Even at the worst of times in bike racing, you get a rider who takes a glance backwards and lets a rider or two by. Usually with full confidence. And the only ones who do this are typically the ones who are in a fairly dominant position and know damn well they can come back when they need to.

This doesn't really happen in F1. Track position is super important in car racing and especially in F1. I've never actually seen a driver *give up* positions on purpose, have you? The most I've seen is drivers be more conservative at certain sections of track in order to make a more sure fire move in a DRS zone. Even then, it's still hardly guaranteed. There's this giant misconception that gets thrown around that DRS is some auto-overtake thing, but I bet if you counted the numbers, you'd find that less than 5% of DRS uses actually result in an overtake.

#2665 GTRacer

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Posted 19 October 2015 - 22:49

Just wanted to say some things about DRS, Its a long one so please bear with it.

First I'll state my position regarding DRS... I hate it, I don't like the type of 'passing' that it produces, I don't like how artificial & gimmicky it is & on the whole I hate what its done to the racing & how I believe its devalued the art & skill of overtaking as well as the art of defending. Watching the easy push of a button 'highway passes' (As i've seen them labelled by some fans) that it generates just isn't exciting to me & that more than anything else has harmed my enjoyment of F1 & has seen me lose interest & turn off a dozen races where DRS was far too powerful.

 

Yes there was a problem with overtaking been too difficult but DRS was not the correct solution in my view as its swung things too far the other way as now all too often overtaking is far too easy with the moves DRS helps generate been just as unexciting & boring to watch as a car slowing down/moving offline getting out the way while been lapped & in some cases it does actually look like a cars simply pulled over & let the DRS-ing car behind past.

 

 

The biggest problem with DRS is that its hard to control, How effective or ineffective it is is too reliant on factors such as car setups, gear rations, wing direction/speed, How many cars are in the line & how many have DRS so playing with zone length isn't a good enough method of controlling effectiveness. Short zones can result in easy moves while long zones can be ineffective depending on these factors & as such it will never be something that works as it should consistently & will never be something they can dial in to make it work as it should all the time.

The other problem with DRS is that it has failed (In my view) to do what it was designed to, It was only meant to work as an assist but far too often it has generated the pass & made the pass too easy & basically a non-event & as i've gone over already I don't like those sort of easy moves.

 

 

So what to do? The obvious solution is to reduce aero & look towards ground effects & more mechanical grip from tyres to allow cars to follow closer & be less affected by turbulent air.... Thats what they should do but its unlikely they will go as far in that direction as they really should do.

So looking at other systems I think the best 'overtaking assist' is push to pass, Give everyone 10 pushes or something & let them use it anywhere at anytime to both attack & defend. We have been in Indycar, Champcar, A1GP etc... that its far easier to control to ensure its not too powerful, is a far fairer tool since everyone can use it the same amount, Its far more strategic because it can be used anywhere only a set number of times & because it can be used to attack & defend it produces far better, more competitive racing where it's very rarely a push of a button, easy pass.

 

But even looking at DRS there are better ways to use it, Putting it on the traditional overtaking zones is stupid for one as that pretty much guarantee's easy passes. The silly rules about 1 second gaps & specific zones is another nonsence.. Why not use DRS like a P2P system, Give everyone 10 opportunities to use DRS through a race anywhere round the circuit & that opens up some of the strategic benefits that a P2P system has. Also why have DRS at every race, Some tracks it may be a benefit but why do we need it on circuits where we traditionally always saw a good level of overtaking?

Hungary may benefit from DRS but what does it add at tracks like Montreal & Spa where it just ends up making things too easy more often than not?

 

 

 

My final point will be this, DRS has indeed helped create a big increase in passing since 2011.... But i've always argued that quality should be more important than quantity & that while DRS has produced quantity its not produced quality. As i've said when its too easy because of DRS its not as fun, Its not as exciting & it doesn't improve the racing.

 

We want to see the drivers fighting, Close racing, Exciting overtaking & above all else I'd suggest that many fans want to see the drivers skill at the forefront of that racing. Having a situation where pressing a button can over-ride & basically nullify the drivers skill when it comes to the arts of overtaking/defending is something that detracts from the racing & certainly doesn't add to it.


Edited by GTRacer, 19 October 2015 - 22:50.


#2666 Otaku

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Posted 19 October 2015 - 23:53

Back in the older days following a car closely was advantageous for the following cars. The slipstream allowed you to often overtake at a straight or when the driver up front would make a tiny error. With modern aerodynamic performance of the cars this is impossible for most drivers. They will destroy their tires as they loose to mych downforce, remember this started pre-pirelli already so the tires are not to blame. Old F1 cars where crude but powerful cars. Modern F1 cars have great aerodynamica and following a car close ruins it. A slipstream now gives minimal benefit and is offset by loss of cornerspeed.

So DRS is needed in F1 till they fix the aero issue. Otherwise we go back to boring F1 again. Cause the races of 10 years ago where boring as ****

 

 

Even if I somehow agree with that statement, it's 100% subjective. What's boring for you might not be boring for me.



#2667 zanquis

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Posted 20 October 2015 - 04:58

Even if I somehow agree with that statement, it's 100% subjective. What's boring for you might not be boring for me.


Yes but people have a tendency to look back and forget that back then more then now qualifying dominated your race position. Bar any errors offcourse. People forget the Trulli trains too easily.

But like someone else said DRS is too predictable, instead of designated zones yhey should just allow for instance 30 sec DRS use a race. Then it is up to the driver to get the max out of it, either defending or attacking with it. Use it too early/too much and you are a sitting duck, use it too late.. The same but then you might be able to comeback.

#2668 August

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Posted 20 October 2015 - 08:00

IndyCar is a great example on how open-wheel cars can produce tight racing, even on circuits like Barber that would probably be a procession for F1. F1 should learn something from IndyCar.

#2669 Hellenic tifosi

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Posted 20 October 2015 - 09:38

 

But even looking at DRS there are better ways to use it, Putting it on the traditional overtaking zones is stupid for one as that pretty much guarantee's easy passes. The silly rules about 1 second gaps & specific zones is another nonsence.. Why not use DRS like a P2P system, Give everyone 10 opportunities to use DRS through a race anywhere round the circuit & that opens up some of the strategic benefits that a P2P system has. Also why have DRS at every race, Some tracks it may be a benefit but why do we need it on circuits where we traditionally always saw a good level of overtaking?

Hungary may benefit from DRS but what does it add at tracks like Montreal & Spa where it just ends up making things too easy more often than not?

 

Well said!

 

A driver could have 30seconds of DRS activity for the entire race, being able to use them whenever he wants.



#2670 MasterOfCoin

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Posted 20 October 2015 - 12:16

IndyCar is a great example on how open-wheel cars can produce tight racing, even on circuits like Barber that would probably be a procession for F1. F1 should learn something from IndyCar.

IndyCar is also a spec series, unless you're suggesting F1 should become a spec series?



#2671 August

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Posted 20 October 2015 - 12:38

IndyCar is also a spec series, unless you're suggesting F1 should become a spec series?


Well, IndyCar wasn't fully spec anymore this year as aero kits were open for development. Sure, they probably don't have as complicated aero as F1 but F1 should really restrict aero(, which doesn't mean becoming a spec series). I know some fans hate restricting development but you can't have both extreme racing and extreme aero.

#2672 MasterOfCoin

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Posted 20 October 2015 - 14:34

Well, IndyCar wasn't fully spec anymore this year as aero kits were open for development. Sure, they probably don't have as complicated aero as F1 but F1 should really restrict aero(, which doesn't mean becoming a spec series). I know some fans hate restricting development but you can't have both extreme racing and extreme aero.

Some of those IndyCar aero kits look pretty complicated, and they run very close to each other, although having ground effects must certainly help. something tells me the reason F1 is so reluctant to ground effects is it might be hard to police, for the ones that get it right and dangerous for the ones who don't.



#2673 zanquis

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Posted 20 October 2015 - 19:07

Well said!

A driver could have 30seconds of DRS activity for the entire race, being able to use them whenever he wants.


Lol I said the same just a few post before you :-)

#2674 ANF

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 18:38

Thursday press conference and Lewis was critical of DRS, saying it doesn't feel organic or like natural racing. Also, at 18:50, Ricciardo suggested that huge speed differences down the straights make it hard for spectators to appreciate the sport.

 

I wonder if any members of the Strategy Group were listening.



#2675 SenorSjon

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 16:24

http://www.f1today.n...top-strategieen

 

English article isn't up yet. In short:

2-3 stops are what they are asked to deliver and 1 stop races are not what they in for.

possible return of the cliff

 

 

Well, the ink is dry on the contract and we get the same Pirelli shit as 2011-2012 again?! Dear me. A race is hard to follow as is due to the poor FOM graphics, let alone 20x3 = 60 stops. 


Edited by SenorSjon, 17 November 2015 - 16:25.


#2676 Marklar

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 16:28

http://www.f1today.n...top-strategieen

 

English article isn't up yet. In short:

2-3 stops are what they are asked to deliver and 1 stop races are not what they in for.

possible return of the cliff

 

 

Well, the ink is dry on the contract and we get the same Pirelli shit as 2011-2012 again?! Dear me. A race is hard to follow as is due to the poor FOM graphics, let alone 20x3 = 60 stops. 

http://www.gptoday.c...ry/view/546982/

 

He is saying this every year.



#2677 Retrofly

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 17:03

http://www.f1today.n...top-strategieen

 

English article isn't up yet. In short:

2-3 stops are what they are asked to deliver and 1 stop races are not what they in for.

possible return of the cliff

 

 

Well, the ink is dry on the contract and we get the same Pirelli shit as 2011-2012 again?! Dear me. A race is hard to follow as is due to the poor FOM graphics, let alone 20x3 = 60 stops. 

 

Yeah can the FIA just copy Dorna, their graphics are great! They seem to cope with 30+ races constantly changing position fine.



#2678 SenorSjon

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 21:06

Funny he says they needed more stops. And that after Brazil with its many stops...

#2679 pdac

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 21:15

I would like to see no stops or something like 7. Anything in between is just not good.



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#2680 Bleu

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Posted 18 November 2015 - 18:19

Brazilian GP showed that the quality of race doesn't depend on the amount of pit stops.



#2681 R Soul

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Posted 18 November 2015 - 18:24

I thought refuelling was banned because we didn't want races being decided by pit stop strategy.



#2682 Kalmake

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Posted 18 November 2015 - 19:53

I thought refuelling was banned because we didn't want races being decided by pit stop strategy.

Official reason was to save the cost of the refuelling equipment and incentivize fuel economy in engine development.



#2683 R Soul

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Posted 23 November 2015 - 19:11

Those criteria are reasonable, but it beggars belief that they banned one of the few ways of drivers changing position before addressing things like turbulent air.
 

"We've got a couple of ideas. I'll know after Abu Dhabi whether it's worked or not. The ideal situation would be to have a 'cliff' back so we can get back to two or three stops rather than pushing the stint lengths as we've had as a tendency of the last two years."


http://www.espn.co.u...liff-2016-tyres

More bullshit from Pirelli. This company has no self respect. There must be people here who produce things for a living. How would you feel if someone asked you to make something that wasn't as good as possible?



#2684 PoleSitter85

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Posted 23 November 2015 - 19:56

Those criteria are reasonable, but it beggars belief that they banned one of the few ways of drivers changing position before addressing things like turbulent air.


http://www.espn.co.u...liff-2016-tyres

More bullshit from Pirelli. This company has no self respect. There must be people here who produce things for a living. How would you feel if someone asked you to make something that wasn't as good as possible?

This sport gets more pathetic by the day.... Only yesterday I read the same clown say that they could easily make their tyres 4-5 secs faster.

Edited by PoleSitter85, 23 November 2015 - 19:57.


#2685 Nathan

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Posted 23 November 2015 - 21:05

Brazil is a track where you don't need pit stops to pass, so before we say we don't need pit stops for passing, lets look at all the tracks before deciding.



#2686 PoleSitter85

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Posted 23 November 2015 - 21:19

I only read this yesterday.

http://planetf1.com/...r-four-seconds/

#2687 pdac

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Posted 23 November 2015 - 21:43

I can't believe they keep talking about all of the gimmicks to make the racing more exciting yet no one has proposed a single-use overtake/defend device - a guaranteed overtake, but just one use in the entire race. Can you  imagine the commentators explaining the stragegy where X has used his overtake already, so Y only needs to get to within passing distance ...


Edited by pdac, 23 November 2015 - 21:43.