Jump to content


Photo
* * * * - 9 votes

Lotus E21 (Part 2)


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
4004 replies to this topic

#1 MightyMoose

MightyMoose
  • RC Forum Host

  • 1,118 posts
  • Joined: July 10

Posted 13 May 2013 - 12:47

Ooops, this appears to have slipped past our 100 page guard!

Apologies and Part 2 appears here.

Part 1 linky --->> http://forums.autosp...w...&start=4280

Advertisement

#2 intelligentsia

intelligentsia
  • Member

  • 2,357 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 13 May 2013 - 13:37

Agreed. I also woulnd't be too quick to crown the F138 just yet. We've mostly had the mediums and hards so far this season. The cars all have relative strenghts on different compounds. I wouldn't be completely surprised if Kimi looks mighty in Canada on the mediums while most of the others start shredding their rears after 10-15 laps, for instance. Not saying I expect it, just that it's not inconceivable. The Cars went up and down all of last season too, depending on the track and chosen compounds. Let's see first how the balance of power is when RB and Ferrari can't fall back on the harder tyres. ;)


The F138 is a very fast car, but due to mistakes, and reliability their points are not quite representative. Lotus looked really fast in Australia but that was the first race of the season it could just be that the other teams like Ferrari and Red Bull were being to conservative because they didn't quite know what to expect from the first race, now they know what to expect and they are able to produce more updates then Lotus.
To me it just doesn't seem like Lotus quite has the pace, they are always the bridesmaid, but atleast they are consistent and relativity reliable which is also important qualities. But overall it seems like their trick is doing one pitstop less then the others, I highly doubt that they would have the pace to compete with the others if they used the same strategies. For one thing their pitstops are slower, so that is already going to count against them.

But there are things that Lotus could improve, their starts this season have been very pedestrian. Last season Kimi was right up with the Ferrari's as being one of the best starters. Also the two laps or so after the start have been very slow. This might have something to do with an engine mapping setting or something. But they need to do something about the starts. Kimi qualifies ahead of the Ferrari's but they just pass him right at the start. Of course it also doesn't help that he has started every race this season so far on the dirty side. But this is an area where there is room for improvement.

#3 Wander

Wander
  • Member

  • 2,281 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 13 May 2013 - 13:56

so RB getting their preferred tyre is justice but Ferrari and Lotus getting advantage is FIA orchestrated result... :stoned:

all he meant was you couldn't make everybody happy..

2ms making up his own reality as usual.

#4 swiniodzik

swiniodzik
  • Member

  • 606 posts
  • Joined: November 08

Posted 13 May 2013 - 14:04

The Ferrari looked dominant pace-wise in yesterday's race because they chose the aggressive four-stop strategy. Red Bull tried to stop three times which they didn't eventually manage, that's mostly why they and Lotus looked slower in terms of raw pace. I see no reason why Lotus wouldn't be able to race their rivals on the same strategy given the glimpses of speed Raikkonen sometimes shows on old tyres some way into a stint. I think the team just prefers to stop less because it's the safer option, perhaps they don't feel as confident as Ferrari of the car's ability to overtake when needed. But with these tyres overtaking doesn't seem to be much of a problem with cars on different strategies, so I hope they get less conservative soon in their approach to clear these doubts.

#5 Lazy Prodigy

Lazy Prodigy
  • Member

  • 2,455 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 13 May 2013 - 14:23

The F138 is a very fast car, but due to mistakes, and reliability their points are not quite representative. Lotus looked really fast in Australia but that was the first race of the season it could just be that the other teams like Ferrari and Red Bull were being to conservative because they didn't quite know what to expect from the first race, now they know what to expect and they are able to produce more updates then Lotus.
To me it just doesn't seem like Lotus quite has the pace, they are always the bridesmaid, but atleast they are consistent and relativity reliable which is also important qualities. But overall it seems like their trick is doing one pitstop less then the others, I highly doubt that they would have the pace to compete with the others if they used the same strategies. For one thing their pitstops are slower, so that is already going to count against them.

But there are things that Lotus could improve, their starts this season have been very pedestrian. Last season Kimi was right up with the Ferrari's as being one of the best starters. Also the two laps or so after the start have been very slow. This might have something to do with an engine mapping setting or something. But they need to do something about the starts. Kimi qualifies ahead of the Ferrari's but they just pass him right at the start. Of course it also doesn't help that he has started every race this season so far on the dirty side. But this is an area where there is room for improvement.

echoed


#6 ZZei

ZZei
  • Member

  • 422 posts
  • Joined: September 09

Posted 13 May 2013 - 14:30

The F138 is a very fast car, but due to mistakes, and reliability their points are not quite representative. Lotus looked really fast in Australia but that was the first race of the season it could just be that the other teams like Ferrari and Red Bull were being to conservative because they didn't quite know what to expect from the first race, now they know what to expect and they are able to produce more updates then Lotus.
To me it just doesn't seem like Lotus quite has the pace, they are always the bridesmaid, but atleast they are consistent and relativity reliable which is also important qualities. But overall it seems like their trick is doing one pitstop less then the others, I highly doubt that they would have the pace to compete with the others if they used the same strategies. For one thing their pitstops are slower, so that is already going to count against them.

But there are things that Lotus could improve, their starts this season have been very pedestrian. Last season Kimi was right up with the Ferrari's as being one of the best starters. Also the two laps or so after the start have been very slow. This might have something to do with an engine mapping setting or something. But they need to do something about the starts. Kimi qualifies ahead of the Ferrari's but they just pass him right at the start. Of course it also doesn't help that he has started every race this season so far on the dirty side. But this is an area where there is room for improvement.

Lotus are fine with starts, there was nothing wrong yesterday in kimis start. Its the fact ferrari is miles ahead of everyone else in that department. Raikkonen I think was caught up a little by Lewis going so slow into the first corners aka "alonso in malaysia" and had no time to react while alonso was a little further back and could see whats happening and took the outside line.
It's true though the ferraris seem to have that little confidence to push more on the first laps. Could be due to lotuses tyre "advantage". It has its good and weak points.

#7 SpaMaster

SpaMaster
  • Member

  • 5,856 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 13 May 2013 - 14:40

2ms

The rotten situation with the tires, whereby the sport is being manipulated to promote Ferrari winning (I don't like to say this, but let's be real) and to make it impossible for Red Bull to win, has potentially ruined Lotus' season for me. No matter what Lotus achieves now could ultimately not matter. No matter how much everyone will want to pretend the season was real and that Lotus really deserved a 2nd or 3rd or whatever they end up with in the end, deep down, everyone will feel Lotus just knew how to use the tires better than everyone except Ferrari.

Self-important idiot Boullier isn't helping things at the moment going and putting Lotus in the pro-ridiculous-tires camp the way he is. He should shut up and let the natural course of things take place. It would elevate the chances of Lotus being perceived less as the beneficiary of freak tire advantages than as a team that was more resilient or whatever at adapting to tough situation in F1. Instead, Lotus is poised to look like participant in manipulation.

You keep sprouting this rubbish that Pirelli deliberately did foul play to favour Ferrari. It is one thing to say they wanted to hamper Red Bull, but somethign like that is usually Bernie's trick not tyre supplier's. By last year's form, Ferrari may not have been the only challenger to Red Bull. McLaren and Lotus could have also benefited from this. To say that Pirelli conspired to help Ferrari is just a cheap shot.

If one thinks the first part is ridiculous, the next part of the post is even more ridiculous.

And your next series of posts, well I don't have words for it. Deranged, may be..

Edited by SpaMaster, 13 May 2013 - 14:44.


#8 2ms

2ms
  • Member

  • 2,212 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 13 May 2013 - 15:22

Whether we as Lotus fans like it or not, everyone is unhappy with the tires except Kimi and Ferrari. The moment yesterday when I saw how speechless and full of sorrow Hamilton, Button, Webber, EVERYONE, tbh, were except Kimi and Ferrari , was one of the saddest I have witnessed in F1. All the sacrifice, heart, money, etc the people in F1 put toward this sport all rendered pissing in the wind when you've got situation of the tires being deliberately designed to alter race results.

Pirelli have been fiddling with the tires constantly since the beginning of 2011. Meanwhile, everyone except one or two teams has been finding them more and more impossible to work with. Now Pirellis says:

"So if I said we were going to make a change, I know I am going to have the podium people today not happy – then you [the media] will be here at Silverstone telling me we have given the championship to Red Bull."

So they say they've arrived at their goal and told us not to expect things to change. So I don't.

Just as no one takes the 2009 F1 season seriously bc it is perceived Max manipulated it with DDD, no one is going to take the 2013 F1 season seriously. In fact, we already know what the results of the season will be now when it's hardly begun. I'm quite confident that a few months from now you will see that I was correct. Of course, there's a chance the FIA or whoever it is will back off due to backlash. But I think they've already predicted it correctly and we'll see a more subtle continuation of the same.

Edited by 2ms, 13 May 2013 - 15:34.


#9 Shiroo

Shiroo
  • Member

  • 4,012 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 13 May 2013 - 15:45

Whether we as Lotus fans like it or not, everyone is unhappy with the tires except Kimi and Ferrari. The moment yesterday when I saw how speechless and full of sorrow Hamilton, Button, Webber, EVERYONE, tbh, were except Kimi and Ferrari , was one of the saddest I have witnessed in F1. All the sacrifice, heart, money, etc the people in F1 put toward this sport all rendered pissing in the wind when you've got situation of the tires being deliberately designed to alter race results.

Pirelli have been fiddling with the tires constantly since the beginning of 2011. Meanwhile, everyone except one or two teams has been finding them more and more impossible to work with. Now Pirellis says:

"So if I said we were going to make a change, I know I am going to have the podium people today not happy – then you [the media] will be here at Silverstone telling me we have given the championship to Red Bull."

So they say they've arrived at their goal and told us not to expect things to change. So I don't.

Just as no one takes the 2009 F1 season seriously bc it is perceived Max manipulated it with DDD, no one is going to take the 2013 F1 season seriously. In fact, we already know what the results of the season will be now when it's hardly begun. I'm quite confident that a few months from now you will see that I was correct. Of course, there's a chance the FIA or whoever it is will back off due to backlash. But I think they've already predicted it correctly and we'll see a more subtle continuation of the same.

You simply cant give credit to ferrari nad lotus, because they managed to do a car that is Great on tyres? Ad EB people should look more what they needed to do with a car,and try to do similar, than qq. I believe That both teams apent a lot of time to be that good on r the tyres, and that wasn't given to them as some think here.

#10 Menace

Menace
  • Member

  • 12,364 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 13 May 2013 - 15:55

2ms making up his own reality as usual.


Yup. Some silly conspiracy stuff as usual.

#11 Watkins74

Watkins74
  • Member

  • 5,767 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 13 May 2013 - 16:59

This conspiracy stuff gets old. Why is it so hard to give credit to Lotus? Some teams have more money than brains and Lotus appears to have more brains (at least until some people left, we will see what develops) than money. Add to that some excellent driving by the cold one plus some good pit work and the entire organization has a lot to be proud of.

Lotus and Kimi don't make the tires, they have nothing to embarrassed about.

Edited by Watkins74, 13 May 2013 - 17:01.


#12 alpiner

alpiner
  • New Member

  • 24 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 13 May 2013 - 17:12

Pirelli is a complete failure. They did not stop Red Bull to wining

1. Vettel 89

1. Red Bull 131

:lol:

Imagination is a beautiful thing and sometimes dangerous

Edited by alpiner, 13 May 2013 - 17:14.


#13 2ms

2ms
  • Member

  • 2,212 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 13 May 2013 - 18:21

Why the conspiracy accusations? Basically all I said was that we already know what the outcome of the season is if they don't put the tires back to being some semblance of reasonable or at least the way before they were the previous seasons. Pirelli itself has acknowledged hindering Red Bull was an objective. But they are hindering everyone except Kimi and Ferrari. Everyone is nowhere except Kimi and Ferrari. Couldn't be more obvious, so don't see the controversy.

EThis is bad for Lotus because their achievements will be overshadowed by the bad fortune of our competitors. 2009 all over again.

#14 SpaMaster

SpaMaster
  • Member

  • 5,856 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 13 May 2013 - 18:31

^ Nobody disregards 2009. Ferrari and McLaren are still regarded as sxxxe cars that year. Button has had a much different rating since then.

Pirelli has not said anything like the objective was to hinder Red Bull. That's a plain lie. I remember your post where you started this. You said both Ferrari and Pirelli are from Italy. Since then it has been quite clear that you are arguing that Pirelli are consciously making an effort to favour Ferrari. Don't even bother to argue that you are being objective here. You are basically claiming Pirelli-Ferrari collusion.

#15 redbull1654

redbull1654
  • Member

  • 57 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 13 May 2013 - 18:50

Pirelli is a complete failure. They did not stop Red Bull to wining

1. Vettel 89

1. Red Bull 131

:lol:

Imagination is a beautiful thing and sometimes dangerous


Huh thank you god,i am a big red bull and vettel fan so hopefully this stays the same until the end of the season.Vettel deserve the 4 title...

#16 2ms

2ms
  • Member

  • 2,212 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 13 May 2013 - 18:52

^ Nobody disregards 2009. Ferrari and McLaren are still regarded as sxxxe cars that year. Button has had a much different rating since then.

Pirelli has not said anything like the objective was to hinder Red Bull. That's a plain lie. I remember your post where you started this. You said both Ferrari and Pirelli are from Italy. Since then it has been quite clear that you are arguing that Pirelli are consciously making an effort to favour Ferrari. Don't even bother to argue that you are being objective here. You are basically claiming Pirelli-Ferrari collusion.


Pirelli's said they don't want to return the tires to the way they were before and they have said that if they do then Red Bull will be the best again. So of course they are making an effort to favour Ferrari relative to RBR. The two are equivalent. I certainly haven't ever said that I think Ferrari would cheat. In fact, I seem to recall saying that I thought they wouldn't.

Edited by 2ms, 13 May 2013 - 18:53.


#17 2ms

2ms
  • Member

  • 2,212 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 13 May 2013 - 18:55

Anyway, this isn't a tire thread. Try to focus on Lotus. I think the tire situation will take away from their achievements this season. If you think not, I got no beef with you.

#18 Shiroo

Shiroo
  • Member

  • 4,012 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 13 May 2013 - 19:00

Pirelli's said they don't want to return the tires to the way they were before and they have said that if they do then Red Bull will be the best again. So of course they are making an effort to favour Ferrari relative to RBR. The two are equivalent. I certainly haven't ever said that I think Ferrari would cheat. In fact, I seem to recall saying that I thought they wouldn't.

I have no idea, that you are actually just playing it or 100% serious (no offence mate, just simply can't follow your logic) . You are saying that if they would bring 2012 RBR tyres (just for your information, we have 2013 Pirelli tyres, and 2013 cars, why the heck the should bring 2012 tyres), RBR would be the best, but what if they would make the tyres even mroe fragile? Then Lotus would be the best. Why they won't make tyres more fragile? Even softer?

Imo they are making Lotus look bad, cause tyres should be even more fragile. THey are playing in RBRs favour, cause tyres are too hard, so RBR can keep it up with Lotus. If Pirelli would be softer then Lotus would be way above RBR.
Above is your reasoning mate, just the other way around.

First of all, they knew how the tyre will look like, they tested them. Second of all, car is not only aero, there are other aspects like suspension or mechanical grip. Only because they focused on aero, and ****ed up totally suspension and tyre management, it doesn't mean that they have best care. F1 is not aero only, if they brought that much aero downforce, then tehy should bring a bit better suspension or other gismo to improve tyre management. Third of all, your argument is as silly as saying that RBRs title in 2011 was cheating cuz of EBD and flex nose, 2009 cuz of DDD, 2006 and 2005 cause of Michellin, 2004, 2002 cuz of unlimited testing, 2003 etc. etc.

They shoudl take F1 as it is, not lobby rules changes because it doesn't play in their cards

Edited by Shiroo, 13 May 2013 - 19:04.


#19 Alburaq

Alburaq
  • Member

  • 1,098 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 13 May 2013 - 19:12

2ms...
Only Red Bull might be suffering because of these tires... and that's their problem. Merecdes always produced bad race cars whatever the tire was. Even in 2010 they rarely had better race pace than the Renault. So Mercedes is not suffering because of the tires.
Mclaren too. Macca screwed up every season start almost every time they changed their car's design and thus since 2002 atleast. So Mclaren is not suffering because of the tires.
And Hembrey never said Pirelli's goal was to hinder RBR. :rolleyes:

Edited by Alburaq, 13 May 2013 - 19:19.


Advertisement

#20 SpaMaster

SpaMaster
  • Member

  • 5,856 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 13 May 2013 - 19:26

Pirelli's said they don't want to return the tires to the way they were before and they have said that if they do then Red Bull will be the best again. So of course they are making an effort to favour Ferrari relative to RBR. The two are equivalent. I certainly haven't ever said that I think Ferrari would cheat. In fact, I seem to recall saying that I thought they wouldn't.

My goodness. Why do you think the bolded parts are reason and result of each other? Why can't they be two separate sentences by themselves? I see it as Pirelli did not want to return the tires to the way it was before (meaning pre-2010) because those were processional races. That, Red Bull would be best would be one of the implications of making the tyres harder. He never said he made the tyres softer to hinder Red Bull. If you thought they meant 2012 tyres, obviously you can't expect 2012 tyres to be used with 2013 tyres. People tested their cars for those years' tyres and it would on Ferrari's and Lotus' dead body that 2012 tyres would come back for 2013. You cannot change tyres mid-season hindering two championship contenders in favour of one other championship contender.

The two are not equivalent. Because from last year, McLaren and Lotus could have also profited.

You are the one who brought this topic into Lotus thread. Now don't tell others to focus on Lotus. You should have at least continued the discussion by copy-pasting and quoting the posts in tyre-relevant thread instead of being hypocritical.

Edited by SpaMaster, 13 May 2013 - 19:38.


#21 Nina

Nina
  • Member

  • 42 posts
  • Joined: April 13

Posted 13 May 2013 - 20:01

This conspiracy stuff gets old. Why is it so hard to give credit to Lotus? Some teams have more money than brains and Lotus appears to have more brains (at least until some people left, we will see what develops) than money. Add to that some excellent driving by the cold one plus some good pit work and the entire organization has a lot to be proud of.

Lotus and Kimi don't make the tires, they have nothing to embarrassed about.


Thank you (for making sense) :)

Seriously people calm down and stop being overly dramatic. Life (not just F1) is a lot easier when you focus on the things you have and the positives rather than obsessing about what others have and the negatives of everything. 2ms seems to really look for the worst possible way to see things which must feel pretty exhausting really.. No offense meant.

Ah well, at least I´m really pleased with how this season has gone so far and excited for the rest of the season. :D It could have gone a lot worse if you think about it.

I don´t know if it´s just me or is the Lotus thread the most negative one relative to the results? (Haven´t actually followed other teams threads that much..) I think last year people were just grateful that Kimi is back and Lotus was more competitive than expected and now they are fighting for the championships and aren´t getting the credit they deserve. And saying Lotus don´t have any chance and the Red Bull/Ferrari has already won 2013 WDC&WCC is just not true and I´m pretty sure the teams and drivers don´t think so either. Amazing how quickly people forget that things can change in F1 and that we still have 14 races to go..

#22 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 14,529 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 13 May 2013 - 20:04

Posted Image

#23 artista

artista
  • RC Forum Host

  • 5,266 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 13 May 2013 - 20:23

This conspiracy stuff gets old. Why is it so hard to give credit to Lotus? Some teams have more money than brains and Lotus appears to have more brains (at least until some people left, we will see what develops) than money. Add to that some excellent driving by the cold one plus some good pit work and the entire organization has a lot to be proud of.

Lotus and Kimi don't make the tires, they have nothing to embarrassed about.

:lol:
Edward Cullen should be so lucky...

#24 Shiroo

Shiroo
  • Member

  • 4,012 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 13 May 2013 - 20:30

Thank you (for making sense) :)

Seriously people calm down and stop being overly dramatic. Life (not just F1) is a lot easier when you focus on the things you have and the positives rather than obsessing about what others have and the negatives of everything. 2ms seems to really look for the worst possible way to see things which must feel pretty exhausting really.. No offense meant.

Ah well, at least I´m really pleased with how this season has gone so far and excited for the rest of the season. :D It could have gone a lot worse if you think about it.

I don´t know if it´s just me or is the Lotus thread the most negative one relative to the results? (Haven´t actually followed other teams threads that much..) I think last year people were just grateful that Kimi is back and Lotus was more competitive than expected and now they are fighting for the championships and aren´t getting the credit they deserve. And saying Lotus don´t have any chance and the Red Bull/Ferrari has already won 2013 WDC&WCC is just not true and I´m pretty sure the teams and drivers don´t think so either. Amazing how quickly people forget that things can change in F1 and that we still have 14 races to go..

Oh you should visit Mercedes thread or McLaren. Mercedes and their swing-o-meter, so happy after saturday and then sunday comes and it's doom and gloom. Though they still have hopes every week.
And yes indeed, Lotus thread is insane. Definetly top 3 team this year already (Mercedes wont leap from them imo, though if we want any higher than 3rd, we need Gro to perform as he should [I exclude Barcelona cuz it was car fault, but still from 4 races only 1 was good so far]).

What worries me the most, that some people that claims to be Lotus fans are like "Lotus isn't good, it is just tyre management" or "Kimi should go to RBR". That pisses off me, the most. God damn it. If someone is Kimi fan, please for god's sake don't write here that he should go to RBR or so, it is team thread, or rather car thread, and whoever claims to be "lotus fan" and he truly is only a Kimi fan that still blames Lotus for "bad tactic, shitty quali pace, meteor rain on mars", please, don't write that. It is pissing off, Lotus fans, that care about drivers (heck I lvoe Raikkonen for what he did for the team, but I'm not really into men love) but we care most about the team.

And current trend, these disses towards Lotus, that "it doesnt have genunie pace" or so, it's at least retarded and really stupid. Team is going forward like no other team on grid I believe, it is progressing. and it doesnt have Mercedes cash, 20 technical directors, yet they beat them with an ease.

So for mother of god, give some credits to team peps, to guys at Enstone that gives a shitload to the team, and are giving 110%.

btw Allison wasn't drawing a car, he just picked what he thought was the best, and gave cash to the "groups in team" that said they could give something to the car.
Chief Designer: Martin Tolliday
Head of Aerodynamics: Dirk De Beer

#25 2ms

2ms
  • Member

  • 2,212 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 13 May 2013 - 21:51

Sorry if my dissenting opinions have really gotten to some of you. The fundamental reason I share them is that I think Lotus and Kimi can win without tires that leave the majority of the grid hopeless, and therefore I am concerned that they will not receive the credit they deserve. Of course I'm proud of them. They're my favorite team and were perennially one of my top 3 teams before Kimi ever got there. They've always been a sorta David to the big guys full of BS and politics. The times I get frustrated have been times when they make the same mistakes several weekends in a row. They've ironed most of that stuff out by now. Good to see there were people inside of Lotus bitching about the problems as much as I was ;) I thought it's obvious they are kicking ass. I only wish there was strong hope of them doing better than they did last year (3rd in WDC). The way Ferrari ran off into the sunset completely unchallenged while everyone else was limping around at 50% was a real shocker and very deflating this weekend. I guess I'm always hoping to hear counterpoints to the negative perspectives I put forward. Try not to take me too seriously when you see I use hyperbole and dramatic descriptions. They're devices I use to attempt to enhance clarity of argument, but maybe I go overboard sometimes.

#26 Skinnyguy

Skinnyguy
  • Member

  • 4,391 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 13 May 2013 - 22:00

Posted Image


I said once and I´ll say again: had Seb turned and they crashed, Kimi should be the one to blame. He didn´t do enough to gain right to a car´s width on the inside.

Thakn God Seb was wise and didn´t make it too hard, they both had lost enough time in previous attempts and in they were not in the same fight at all.

#27 Seanspeed

Seanspeed
  • Member

  • 14,529 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 13 May 2013 - 22:08

Try not to take me too seriously when you see I use hyperbole and dramatic descriptions. They're devices I use to attempt to enhance clarity of argument

Just some advice - hyperbole and overdramatic descriptions do exactly the opposite of providing clarity of argument.  ;)

I said once and I´ll say again: had Seb turned and they crashed, Kimi should be the one to blame. He didn´t do enough to gain right to a car´s width on the inside.

Thakn God Seb was wise and didn´t make it too hard, they both had lost enough time in previous attempts and in they were not in the same fight at all.

Yea, you're right about that. Line between hero and zero when overtaking can often be pretty small.

When I first saw it, I wasn't sure Kimi was quite committed. Like it was a bit of a half-hearted pass that he realized at the very end that he could actually go through with.

Still enjoyed it, though.

#28 Skinnyguy

Skinnyguy
  • Member

  • 4,391 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 13 May 2013 - 22:16

Like it was a bit of a half-hearted pass that he realized at the very end that he could actually go through with.


Perfect description.

Saving grace for me is that after watching a couple of times I´m pretty sure Räikkönen had enough grip and margin to slow down enough to let Seb fully ahead in case Vettel had decided to turn in. Probably he just kept going once he realized Vettel was that cautious. Mybe it was safer than it looked. But if it wasn´t the case and they touched, Kimi would be no doubt taking some heat, and rightly so.

#29 Shiroo

Shiroo
  • Member

  • 4,012 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 13 May 2013 - 22:25

Perfect description.

Saving grace for me is that after watching a couple of times I´m pretty sure Räikkönen had enough grip and margin to slow down enough to let Seb fully ahead in case Vettel had decided to turn in. Probably he just kept going once he realized Vettel was that cautious. Mybe it was safer than it looked. But if it wasn´t the case and they touched, Kimi would be no doubt taking some heat, and rightly so.

well it looks like Kimi had massive grip advantage at that moment. that's why Vettel left the space, Raikkonen was at his rear already when started to turn in and saw that if he wouldnt let him pass they could collide. though, kimi had enough grip to slow down there I believe.

Mature drive from Vettel, he prefered save 4 place, than DNF

#30 Diderlo

Diderlo
  • Member

  • 170 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 13 May 2013 - 22:25

You don't often see Kimi overtaking on the inside, yesterday we saw it twice (at least?). So I don't know if Kimi trusts it that much. Maybe he is learning that skill again, I'm hoping we'll see more of that in the future. It just seems to be usually easier. Well.. easier if the other driver has respect and is aware of the situation :)

#31 intelligentsia

intelligentsia
  • Member

  • 2,357 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 13 May 2013 - 22:36

I said once and I´ll say again: had Seb turned and they crashed, Kimi should be the one to blame. He didn´t do enough to gain right to a car´s width on the inside.

Thakn God Seb was wise and didn´t make it too hard, they both had lost enough time in previous attempts and in they were not in the same fight at all.


Vettel wasn't that much slower then Kimi, after Kimi got past Vettel's laps were only about 0.2 a lap slower.


#32 intelligentsia

intelligentsia
  • Member

  • 2,357 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 13 May 2013 - 22:39

You don't often see Kimi overtaking on the inside, yesterday we saw it twice (at least?). So I don't know if Kimi trusts it that much. Maybe he is learning that skill again, I'm hoping we'll see more of that in the future. It just seems to be usually easier. Well.. easier if the other driver has respect and is aware of the situation :)


It seems to suits the characteristics of the Lotus better to overtake on the outside. Vettel also does a lot of his overatking on the outside so it might have something to do with the Renault engine.


#33 Shiroo

Shiroo
  • Member

  • 4,012 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 13 May 2013 - 22:42

You don't often see Kimi overtaking on the inside, yesterday we saw it twice (at least?). So I don't know if Kimi trusts it that much. Maybe he is learning that skill again, I'm hoping we'll see more of that in the future. It just seems to be usually easier. Well.. easier if the other driver has respect and is aware of the situation :)

well they were just conserving tyres. Vettel didnt even try to fight :p

#34 Skinnyguy

Skinnyguy
  • Member

  • 4,391 posts
  • Joined: August 10

Posted 13 May 2013 - 22:47

Vettel wasn't that much slower then Kimi, after Kimi got past Vettel's laps were only about 0.2 a lap slower.


When the pass happened Kimi and Sebastian were in the same piece of tarmac, with Sebastian having to stop two more times, and Kimi having to stop once more, and Kimi was faster on track too. Seb should have stopped the fight when they finally switched him for the 4 stopper.

Before that he was in the right slowing Kimi as much as possible, he had a chance to fight him then.

#35 2ms

2ms
  • Member

  • 2,212 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 13 May 2013 - 22:48

Just some advice - hyperbole and overdramatic descriptions do exactly the opposite of providing clarity of argument.;)
.


Nah, you're just one of these people who hates Kimi and Lotus except when their success supports the idea that someone other than Ferrari is benefiting from Pirelli ;)

Edited by 2ms, 13 May 2013 - 22:49.


#36 santababy

santababy
  • Member

  • 419 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 14 May 2013 - 00:46

Nah, you're just one of these people who hates Kimi and Lotus except when their success supports the idea that someone other than Ferrari is benefiting from Pirelli ;)


 ;)

#37 Cyanide

Cyanide
  • Member

  • 3,023 posts
  • Joined: October 11

Posted 14 May 2013 - 09:34

Any updates on the car for Monaco? I read somewhere that they are planning quite a big update package for one of the upcoming races.

#38 Torsion

Torsion
  • Member

  • 627 posts
  • Joined: February 12

Posted 14 May 2013 - 09:38

Any updates on the car for Monaco? I read somewhere that they are planning quite a big update package for one of the upcoming races.


I am not sure whether Monaco is the best place to test new updates, so it might be for Canada or Silverstone?



#39 Alburaq

Alburaq
  • Member

  • 1,098 posts
  • Joined: June 10

Posted 14 May 2013 - 13:38

Some updates we already talked about:
Posted Image

Some updates we didnt really talk about:
Tweaked rear wheel winglets
Posted Image

New winglet near the beam wing
and a modified vortex conditionner on the floor near the wheels
Posted Image

Edited by Alburaq, 14 May 2013 - 13:38.


Advertisement

#40 SpaMaster

SpaMaster
  • Member

  • 5,856 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 14 May 2013 - 13:47

I said once and I´ll say again: had Seb turned and they crashed, Kimi should be the one to blame. He didn´t do enough to gain right to a car´s width on the inside.

Thakn God Seb was wise and didn´t make it too hard, they both had lost enough time in previous attempts and in they were not in the same fight at all.

It is true that the car ahead has to leave width when the car behind gets alongside. But that does not mean you can change direction however late it is. It then becomes chopping. This is a high speed corner. So the braking distance is very short. Drivers can dive inside very late and make a move stick. If the driver ahead thinks he is not alongside me and I can weave around, then it becomes too late for the driver behind to react because the speed is high. You are talking as if it is your typical long-braking first corner. If Vettel had moved in, it would have been too late and they would have crashed. It would be chopping. F1 move is all about reaction time, that is how deliberate crowding and chopping moves are punished. Vettel was perfectly sensible there. So was Raikkonen. I don't see any point of contention.

well it looks like Kimi had massive grip advantage at that moment. that's why Vettel left the space, Raikkonen was at his rear already when started to turn in and saw that if he wouldnt let him pass they could collide. though, kimi had enough grip to slow down there I believe.

Mature drive from Vettel, he prefered save 4 place, than DNF

Exactly. Otherwise it would have been chopping, a la Webber, Brazil 2009. People don't realize that is an unusually high speed first corner. You can make the move late, but would crash if you think you can move around like a normal corner.

Edited by SpaMaster, 14 May 2013 - 13:53.


#41 Diderlo

Diderlo
  • Member

  • 170 posts
  • Joined: October 12

Posted 14 May 2013 - 14:08

Some updates we already talked about:


Thanks Alburaq, your update compilations are amazing. I don't know what we would do without you. Many thanks for your work :)

#42 intelligentsia

intelligentsia
  • Member

  • 2,357 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 14 May 2013 - 16:26

With the changes to the tyres, I guess we will now be back to having issues with heating the tyres.

#43 Pothead4Philosopher

Pothead4Philosopher
  • Member

  • 541 posts
  • Joined: September 12

Posted 14 May 2013 - 16:34

With the changes to the tyres, I guess we will now be back to having issues with heating the tyres.


Too early to say mate. I would hope that the change is more or less the same for all teams. We do not know in what manner Pirelli brings the changes about.

Furthermore, I refuse to accept that Lotus is that much reliant on the tires alone. Not that you are saying so, just as a general observation. The car is good and we have no reason to feel otherwise. Yet.

#44 Menace

Menace
  • Member

  • 12,364 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 14 May 2013 - 16:37

Thanks Alburaq, your update compilations are amazing. I don't know what we would do without you. Many thanks for your work :)


x2.

Great information and pictures. :up:

#45 SpaMaster

SpaMaster
  • Member

  • 5,856 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 14 May 2013 - 17:10

The two compound rule is just silly, come to think of it. Let teams make a choice of two tyres and tell Pirelli in advance so that they can plan the logistics. If Lotus wants to use supersofts and softs at Canada and Red Bull wants to use medium and hards, so be it. Everyone is happy. You will still see mega changes in strategy.

#46 intelligentsia

intelligentsia
  • Member

  • 2,357 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 14 May 2013 - 17:10

Too early to say mate. I would hope that the change is more or less the same for all teams. We do not know in what manner Pirelli brings the changes about.

Furthermore, I refuse to accept that Lotus is that much reliant on the tires alone. Not that you are saying so, just as a general observation. The car is good and we have no reason to feel otherwise. Yet.


Of course it is difficult to say what exactly will happen until we actually see how the cars performs on these tyres.

But right now there is not really many indications that Lotus has real pace. The only place where they showed real pace was in Australia, as Kimi was able to post the fastest lap of the race on old tyres. They did a three stop strategy in China, and Kimi had the front wing damage so we dont know how much of an effect that had, but he just didn't have the pace of Ferrari. In Bahrain Grosjean did well and he did a 3 stop strategy and he had nowhere the near the pace of Red Bull.
The 3 - 4 laps directly after a pitstop is when drivers push the most and when their tyres are at their best. When you compare these times in Barcelona of Kimi against Massa and Alonso and even some other teams, then you can see that Lotus just weren't as fast as others in those conditions.

It seems like Lotus have figured out a way to push the tyres harder and for longer then others, if the tyre changes make the tyres more durable then Lotus are going to lose some of their competitiveness.

#47 SpaMaster

SpaMaster
  • Member

  • 5,856 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 14 May 2013 - 17:44

^ It looks like you have no proof to say that Lotus has no real pace. The burden of proof is on you. You can't say they have done only less-stop races, no indications, so it must not be there. Lack of indication does not mean lack of existence. Kimi said in Australia that he could have pushed more. He again said yesterday that if they had switched to 4-stops they could have also posted much quicker lap times. He said they could have done both. Cars that have better race pace have always looked like that. It does not mean they don't have pace. It depend on what you define by pace. I define pace as the time and order at which you finish the race. I could define pace as the order and closeness in which you are in the rankings. Any other form of pace is useless, just like Mercedes'.

#48 cotecine

cotecine
  • Member

  • 61 posts
  • Joined: March 13

Posted 14 May 2013 - 17:50

Tweet from oskari saari :Spoke with Paul Hembery. Summary: RB pressure did not effect, tyres will not be exactly like 2012, but Lotus advantage might decrease. #f1.

Bah. I hope not.

#49 sneaker91

sneaker91
  • Member

  • 218 posts
  • Joined: March 13

Posted 14 May 2013 - 19:50

I imagine that whatever advantage lotus have currently won't drop off too much when Pirelli makes their changes. The E21 is fast but cannot match the Red Bull or Ferrari in terms of outright pace over a single lap. Car is very strong on long stints but in racing environment that gets negated if Kimi has to fight for clear air which has happened the past few races.
Lotus need to develop some more downforce to really challenge for outright victories. Alonso was mega in Spain. Kimi did a great job getting second, car was certainly quicker than red bull. Gonna be a great season tyre drama or not. Iceman doesn't whinge he just gets on with the job!!!

#50 TheThirdTenor1

TheThirdTenor1
  • Member

  • 882 posts
  • Joined: April 13

Posted 14 May 2013 - 20:09

The two compound rule is just silly, come to think of it. Let teams make a choice of two tyres and tell Pirelli in advance so that they can plan the logistics. If Lotus wants to use supersofts and softs at Canada and Red Bull wants to use medium and hards, so be it. Everyone is happy. You will still see mega changes in strategy.


I agree. This is what it used to be like in the late 90s, though teams only got to choose one compound.