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Lotus E21 (Part 2)


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#51 Pothead4Philosopher

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 20:21

I imagine that whatever advantage lotus have currently won't drop off too much when Pirelli makes their changes. The E21 is fast but cannot match the Red Bull or Ferrari in terms of outright pace over a single lap. Car is very strong on long stints but in racing environment that gets negated if Kimi has to fight for clear air which has happened the past few races.
Lotus need to develop some more downforce to really challenge for outright victories. Alonso was mega in Spain. Kimi did a great job getting second, car was certainly quicker than red bull. Gonna be a great season tyre drama or not. Iceman doesn't whinge he just gets on with the job!!!


Well, Lotus is better positioned now than they were last year at this point of the race calendar -- and Kimi has been delivering very solid results. Last summer was good for Lotus and I go by having faith that they keep at least matching those. Monaco and Canada can be improved upon quite a bit as well.

I am optimistic.

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#52 Shiroo

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 20:36

Well, Lotus is better positioned now than they were last year at this point of the race calendar -- and Kimi has been delivering very solid results. Last summer was good for Lotus and I go by having faith that they keep at least matching those. Monaco and Canada can be improved upon quite a bit as well.

I am optimistic.

Monaco wasnt that bad last year, Kimi had steering wheel problems and Gro well went Gro :p
if car won't go Malaysia we should be not that bad there. Still Mercedes will be there best, Webber will perform good, Vettel probably as well, Alonso similar, dunno about Massa. Top 6 result would be good imo,

#53 Pothead4Philosopher

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 20:46

Monaco wasnt that bad last year, Kimi had steering wheel problems and Gro well went Gro :p
if car won't go Malaysia we should be not that bad there. Still Mercedes will be there best, Webber will perform good, Vettel probably as well, Alonso similar, dunno about Massa. Top 6 result would be good imo,


My crystal balls... ball, I mean, tells me the following. One Merc DNF, one Ferrari will find itself at the back due to early action from Romain. Romain will only need a new wing and by improv strategy will find himself back in points. The remaining Merc will drop a bit after first pit-stops. Mark will be called in to safeguard Seb's race. Kimi will do one less pit-stop and gets podium, which one, I can't see. One Ferrari and Seb to join.

Caveat emptor: do not make bets with the above.

#54 darkkis

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 20:53

To be honest, I don't think that Lotus will suffer that much after all. If we think about it, they didn't know the exact structure of tyres before Barcelona tests, so they most likely used 2012 tyres as their main baseline anyway? Trying to find a bright side here. :D

#55 nowayback

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 21:00

So let me get this wrong, some teams did their homework and designed their car so that they are not wearing out the tires too much. Others couldnt manage that, but dont worry pirelli will fix that for you. Why dont we have rolling starts since most teams suffer at start compared to Ferrari.

F1 set the boundries, rules at the beginning of the season, and who can adapt to them best will prob win. I think Lotus has good pace, but one of their advantages (tires
) will prob be reduced.

Mercedes was sooooooooo happy on saturday with the 1st row lockout, and all the english sportscasters, LH fans. But on race day it was all about how bad F! is now with all these pitstops.

Edited by nowayback, 14 May 2013 - 21:01.


#56 Pothead4Philosopher

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 21:12

So let me get this wrong, some teams did their homework and designed their car so that they are not wearing out the tires too much. Others couldnt manage that, but dont worry pirelli will fix that for you. Why dont we have rolling starts since most teams suffer at start compared to Ferrari.

F1 set the boundries, rules at the beginning of the season, and who can adapt to them best will prob win. I think Lotus has good pace, but one of their advantages (tires
) will prob be reduced.

Mercedes was sooooooooo happy on saturday with the 1st row lockout, and all the english sportscasters, LH fans. But on race day it was all about how bad F! is now with all these pitstops.


Not too bad mate. F1 is not exactly known for its fair-play, Olympic sentiment of honor in participating. The way it is and they way it is structured means it will stay so.

Nationalistic hyperbole and rabid driver fans are like parasites. Quite repulsive, but yet needed in the grand scheme of things. We will adapt.


#57 Skinnyguy

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 21:50

To be honest, I don't think that Lotus will suffer that much after all. If we think about it, they didn't know the exact structure of tyres before Barcelona tests, so they most likely used 2012 tyres as their main baseline anyway? Trying to find a bright side here. :D


Probably things won´t change THAT much but it´s still not fair changing the rules in the middle of a match. When EDB and off-throttle blowing became under attack mid 2011 just because one team was best at it it got ridiculous. Luckily back then they backed of that and waited to the end of the year to make changes.

#58 Cool Beans

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 22:14

My hope is Lotus will take this RB / Mercedes shareholder initiated bullshit with stride. Get on equal race pace with the other guys by doing that extra stop in the races and make hay in the latter part of stints with their good tyre management. They can even undercut the other guys at every stop because going a few laps longer in the last stint wont be a problem.

#59 2ms

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 22:24

It would be nice if someone like Scarbs would produce something on what exactly the car design and setup variables are for making tires work, and what the methods are that F1 teams use for assessing the tires and making them work. It's this big murky thing. But would be fascinating to know about. Maybe the FIA could produce some stuff along these lines to show before races etc. Would be good way of making the North American, for example, public more interested in F1 as we move into that market. I'm thinking kind of like how during the Olympics they have those shows on the various individual athletes etc.

Anyway, feeling better about Lotus' chances. Who knows, maybe with all the anti-RBR sentiment around these days, more people than ever will be pulling for the Kimster the rest of this season.

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#60 Pothead4Philosopher

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 23:49

It would be nice if someone like Scarbs would produce something on what exactly the car design and setup variables are for making tires work, and what the methods are that F1 teams use for assessing the tires and making them work. It's this big murky thing. But would be fascinating to know about. Maybe the FIA could produce some stuff along these lines to show before races etc. Would be good way of making the North American, for example, public more interested in F1 as we move into that market. I'm thinking kind of like how during the Olympics they have those shows on the various individual athletes etc.

Anyway, feeling better about Lotus' chances. Who knows, maybe with all the anti-RBR sentiment around these days, more people than ever will be pulling for the Kimster the rest of this season.


Not bad idea, tech one on one in simple terms for mortals like myself -- and then some.

I hope that Kimi and Lotus will have all the support without the need to resort on any anti-whatever sentiments though. There is enough negativity amongst the driver fans that seem to put the sport second to their favorites.

#61 kimifan88

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 00:13

Not bad idea, tech one on one in simple terms for mortals like myself -- and then some.

I hope that Kimi and Lotus will have all the support without the need to resort on any anti-whatever sentiments though. There is enough negativity amongst the driver fans that seem to put the sport second to their favorites.

Anyone here think that the drivers should be the ones deciding what type of tyres should be used? My guess is that they would want them to be ultra tough and not need changing so the result is all down to driving skill. My nicks a bit of a give a way as to who I think would clean house :p

#62 intelligentsia

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 00:45

^ It looks like you have no proof to say that Lotus has no real pace. The burden of proof is on you. You can't say they have done only less-stop races, no indications, so it must not be there. Lack of indication does not mean lack of existence. Kimi said in Australia that he could have pushed more. He again said yesterday that if they had switched to 4-stops they could have also posted much quicker lap times. He said they could have done both. Cars that have better race pace have always looked like that. It does not mean they don't have pace. It depend on what you define by pace. I define pace as the time and order at which you finish the race. I could define pace as the order and closeness in which you are in the rankings. Any other form of pace is useless, just like Mercedes'.


Race pace is difficult to define, it has got nothing to do with finishing order, or the order of the WCC. Mclaren was overall the fastest car last season and that didn't help them to win the WCC, although it does tend to even out over a season. It is plainly about being fast in the race, and realistic potential to win. I am not saying Lotus is slow either, I am just saying that they dont have the outright pace to compare against Ferrari or Red Bull, although with Red Bull it also seem to be a track depended issue. Australia was the only place where Lotus showed real pace, and that was 3 months ago, Australia also tend to be a bit of a specialist track. Things evolve with different updates and tracks.

I ve given my reasons as to why I make this statement:
The only place where they showed real pace was in Australia, as Kimi was able to post the fastest lap of the race on old tyres. They did a three stop strategy in China, and Kimi had the front wing damage so we dont know how much of an effect that had, but he just didn't have the pace of Ferrari. In Bahrain Grosjean did well and he did a 3 stop strategy and he had nowhere the near the pace of Red Bull.
The 3 - 4 laps directly after a pitstop is when drivers push the most and when their tyres are at their best. When you compare these times in Barcelona of Kimi against Massa and Alonso and even some other teams, then you can see that Lotus just weren't as fast as others in those conditions.

But you can also read James Allen's race strategy report for Spain, if you feel so inclined:
http://www.jamesalle...ntreal-onwards/

Why not rather address my reasons instead of just stating I need to prove something? It is not a matter of proof, otherwise I could just point out the obvious that Lotus has won less races then Ferrari and Red Bull, it is merely my personal opinion. :)

Edited by intelligentsia, 15 May 2013 - 00:47.


#63 LoloSoso

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 02:14

我就是想看看能不能用汉语!!

#64 Pothead4Philosopher

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 02:19

我就是想看看能不能用汉语!!

Seems like you could. Mooi zo, hienoa, c'est magnifique!

Edit: typo

Edited by Pothead4Philosopher, 15 May 2013 - 04:30.


#65 santababy

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 02:23

我就是想看看能不能用汉语!!


Ni hao!

#66 swiniodzik

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 02:52

Lotus has shown moments of real pace more than just Australia. In Malaysia, if I remember correctly, both Raikkonen and Grosjean posted the then-fastest lap of the race in Malaysia at some points of the race when they were in clean air. In Bahrain, Romain matched the Red Bull and often went faster than Vettel in the last and second last stint, it's true Seb was controlling the race to a degree then but earlier Romain was fighting in traffic. China is totally inconclusive as Kimi drove with a damaged car and Romain wasn't happy with the car, and in Spain as I said earlier the Ferraris were doing an aggressive four-stopper there compared to Kimi's three so it's natural they displayed quicker pace than the Lotus most of the time. I think no car is dominant at the moment and they're all very close at the top.

#67 LoloSoso

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 03:14

:up:

Seems like you could. Mooi zo, hienoa, c'est manifique!


3q for your reply !that's so great! what's meaning “Mooi zo, hienoa, c'est manifique!”

壮哉我大神莲 布胖说要染指wcc! :up:

#68 LoloSoso

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 03:16

Ni hao!


你好!谢谢!
so I can stay here in Chinese!wuhaha so great!


#69 LoloSoso

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 03:25

Lotus has shown moments of real pace more than just Australia. In Malaysia, if I remember correctly, both Raikkonen and Grosjean posted the then-fastest lap of the race in Malaysia at some points of the race when they were in clean air. In Bahrain, Romain matched the Red Bull and often went faster than Vettel in the last and second last stint, it's true Seb was controlling the race to a degree then but earlier Romain was fighting in traffic. China is totally inconclusive as Kimi drove with a damaged car and Romain wasn't happy with the car, and in Spain as I said earlier the Ferraris were doing an aggressive four-stopper there compared to Kimi's three so it's natural they displayed quicker pace than the Lotus most of the time. I think no car is dominant at the moment and they're all very close at the top.

yeah the pace in the whole race Lotus was so quick。
在圈速上面 路特斯的表现很稳定 而且很快 证明他们现在是围场里面最好的赛车之一。

#70 Pothead4Philosopher

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 03:29

:up:

3q for your reply !that's so great! what's meaning “Mooi zo, hienoa, c'est manifique!”

壮哉我大神莲 布胖说要染指wcc! :up:


:cool:

'Mooi zo' is Dutch for 'great' or 'well done'; 'hienoa' is Finnish for 'great' or 'nice'; 'c'est magnifique' is French for 'it is magnificent'.

(I live in Holland, am a Finn and worked quite a few years in France.)

Your second Chinese sentence makes no sense whatsoever to me tho....;-))

Edited by Pothead4Philosopher, 15 May 2013 - 04:29.


#71 intelligentsia

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 11:31

Tobias Grüner F1 ‏@tgruener
#F1 @WilliamsF1Team is considering switch from Renault to Mercedes engines for 2014. Lotus and Caterham also not happy.

#72 Yoshi

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 11:45

The whole news is here (German) => http://www.auto-moto...er-7115899.html


#73 darkkis

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 12:17

Tobias Grüner F1 ‏@tgruener
#F1 @WilliamsF1Team is considering switch from Renault to Mercedes engines for 2014. Lotus and Caterham also not happy.

...not happy? Why? :confused: Or are they disappointed with 2014 Renault engine development shown to them?

#74 Alburaq

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 12:23

Because, according to AMuS, the Renault package costs respectively 8 and 6 millions more thant the Ferrari and the Merc. Which is not very credible if you ask me

Not at all Diderlo and Menace.


#75 Jovanotti

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 12:29

...not happy? Why? :confused: Or are they disappointed with 2014 Renault engine development shown to them?

Renaults engines are to expensive for Lotus, Williams, Caterham and Toro Rosso according to the article - 20 to 23 million Euros a year (Mercedes is at 17, Ferrari at 15 millions per season). Ecclestone will have a meeting with Carlos Ghosn tomorrow and will likely force Renault to drop the prices.

Just shows what a good idea it is to pretend to cut costs and meanwhile change the engine formula. Half of the teams are having severe financial problems.

#76 Pothead4Philosopher

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 12:43

Naturally, we have to remember that these (noises) are to be considered teams negotiation tactics in full display. You can do quite a bit of aero work with € 6-8 million.

Moreover, to switch the engine supplier would mean some serious redesign work for the folks as well. Now, I am first to admit that I do not know where and/or how far teams are by now with their 2014 designs, but the sooner teams have certainty the better I would say.

#77 Diderlo

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 14:16

Yeah, with 8 millions they could pay half of Kimi's next year salary :lol:

#78 SpaMaster

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 14:25

Race pace is difficult to define, it has got nothing to do with finishing order, or the order of the WCC. Mclaren was overall the fastest car last season and that didn't help them to win the WCC, although it does tend to even out over a season. It is plainly about being fast in the race, and realistic potential to win. I am not saying Lotus is slow either, I am just saying that they dont have the outright pace to compare against Ferrari or Red Bull, although with Red Bull it also seem to be a track depended issue. Australia was the only place where Lotus showed real pace, and that was 3 months ago, Australia also tend to be a bit of a specialist track. Things evolve with different updates and tracks.

I am not interested in the definition of race pace. I am only interested in the overall pace and that pace is reflected by your finishing position. Out of 5 races, Ferrari fell back in 2 of those races and we don't have data to compare for the overall pace. And in China Kimi was driving with a damaged wing. That leaves us with just two races. Out of the two races, Lotus absolutely smoked it in one of them, won quite comfortably against Ferrari. The other one Ferrari won comfortably. It is 1-1 really. There is no reason to say Lotus does not have real pace.

I ve given my reasons as to why I make this statement:
The only place where they showed real pace was in Australia, as Kimi was able to post the fastest lap of the race on old tyres. They did a three stop strategy in China, and Kimi had the front wing damage so we dont know how much of an effect that had, but he just didn't have the pace of Ferrari. In Bahrain Grosjean did well and he did a 3 stop strategy and he had nowhere the near the pace of Red Bull.
The 3 - 4 laps directly after a pitstop is when drivers push the most and when their tyres are at their best. When you compare these times in Barcelona of Kimi against Massa and Alonso and even some other teams, then you can see that Lotus just weren't as fast as others in those conditions.

This sort of real pace inference from the first 3-4 laps does not really matter. Teams with better race pace often show it later in the stint when the lap times are slower than their initial laps but faster than others and make the crucial difference. As long as there is no mechanical problem, the real pace is better inferred from the finishing position, otherwise there are so many things that don't mean real sense. Great qualy lap, first 3-4 laps, final-6-7 laps - all these don't matter if they don't help you with the finishing position.

But you can also read James Allen's race strategy report for Spain, if you feel so inclined:
http://www.jamesalle...ntreal-onwards/

Why not rather address my reasons instead of just stating I need to prove something? It is not a matter of proof, otherwise I could just point out the obvious that Lotus has won less races then Ferrari and Red Bull, it is merely my personal opinion. :)

I have read James Allen's report. I just don't agree with your notion that Lotus does not have real pace.

#79 V3TT3L

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 14:37

Posted Image

I think Kimi is fine at Lotus.
He is 'wearing' company collors everywhere.

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#80 MadYarpen

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 15:07

I think this boat is simply black. Or otherwise I'm wearing lotus colours quite a lot, and should charge them for this;)

Edited by MadYarpen, 15 May 2013 - 15:08.


#81 intelligentsia

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 20:20

I am not interested in the definition of race pace.



You were the one who originally started talking about the definition of pace:

I define pace as the time and order at which you finish the race. I could define pace as the order and closeness in which you are in the rankings. Any other form of pace is useless, just like Mercedes'.



Out of 5 races, Ferrari fell back in 2 of those races and we don't have data to compare for the overall pace. And in China Kimi was driving with a damaged wing. That leaves us with just two races. Out of the two races, Lotus absolutely smoked it in one of them, won quite comfortably against Ferrari. The other one Ferrari won comfortably. It is 1-1 really. There is no reason to say Lotus does not have real pace.
This sort of real pace inference from the first 3-4 laps does not really matter. Teams with better race pace often show it later in the stint when the lap times are slower than their initial laps but faster than others and make the crucial difference. As long as there is no mechanical problem, the real pace is better inferred from the finishing position, otherwise there are so many things that don't mean real sense. Great qualy lap, first 3-4 laps, final-6-7 laps - all these don't matter if they don't help you with the finishing position.

I have read James Allen's report. I just don't agree with your notion that Lotus does not have real pace.


It really is quite difficult to figure out real pace these days. The reason why I choose the 3 - 4 laps directly after pitting for new tyres is because that is basically the time when the tyres would be the same for all of the teams, of course this isn't fool proof as some teams will use new tyres and some teams will use old tyres. But it is the closest point where the tyres are equal no matter what strategy the team uses. Also another reason is that drivers push the hardest directly after pitting, this is the place where you can really make up some time by pushing hard, you can undercut and gain track position at this stage. Personally I think this will in most cases be the time when drivers are really pushing and when they are more likely to show their true pace. Of course as you rightly point out it isn't always fool proof, as Kimi in Australia posted some of his fastest times just before pitting.

I dont think you could quite say that Ferrari just fell back in two races. We could go through this race for race. Australia is simple as Lotus came out on top without any issues for anyone. In Malaysia Alonso crashed into Vettel, damaged his front wing and retired, but at that stage he was going for second place, and even Massa ended up finishing in front of Lotus. Alonso won in China, and Kimi had front wing damage this time, according to the team he was losing time on every lap. In Bahrain Alonso was in front of Kimi but suffered with reliability issues due to DRS and he stopped twice for this issue. Massa had two punctures. And in Spain nothing went wrong except for Grosjean's suspension, but Alonso ended up ahead of Kimi. In all of the races bar Australia, Ferrari where ahead before their reliability caused them problems. Of course it is difficult to tell how things would have ended exactly, especially in Bahrain, but I personally think a pattern might be emerging here.

I am only interested in the overall pace and that pace is reflected by your finishing position.


I guess we are just not talking about exactly the same thing then, since I am referring to realistic potential to win, in my opinion finishing position alone isn't an indicator of pace. But I respect you opinion.

#82 fum3s

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 22:08

我就是想看看能不能用汉语!!

You can, but not everyone has CJK installed (on their computer or in their head), so don't.

#83 LoloSoso

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 00:50

:cool:

'Mooi zo' is Dutch for 'great' or 'well done'; 'hienoa' is Finnish for 'great' or 'nice'; 'c'est magnifique' is French for 'it is magnificent'.

(I live in Holland, am a Finn and worked quite a few years in France.)

Your second Chinese sentence makes no sense whatsoever to me tho....;-))


make Lotus team fans bigger in auto,Bollier encourages his guys to get the WCC,maybe I also wish another WDC !

u are a superman!
so these countries are not far away?I hope to travel in Finland,the beautiful country!

#84 LoloSoso

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 00:56

You can, but not everyone has CJK installed (on their computer or in their head), so don't.

I just want to have a try whether I can leave messages in simple Chinese in auto forum! but still 3q!
so you can speak Chinese?


#85 LoloSoso

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 01:02

You were the one who originally started talking about the definition of pace:






It really is quite difficult to figure out real pace these days. The reason why I choose the 3 - 4 laps directly after pitting for new tyres is because that is basically the time when the tyres would be the same for all of the teams, of course this isn't fool proof as some teams will use new tyres and some teams will use old tyres. But it is the closest point where the tyres are equal no matter what strategy the team uses. Also another reason is that drivers push the hardest directly after pitting, this is the place where you can really make up some time by pushing hard, you can undercut and gain track position at this stage. Personally I think this will in most cases be the time when drivers are really pushing and when they are more likely to show their true pace. Of course as you rightly point out it isn't always fool proof, as Kimi in Australia posted some of his fastest times just before pitting.

I dont think you could quite say that Ferrari just fell back in two races. We could go through this race for race. Australia is simple as Lotus came out on top without any issues for anyone. In Malaysia Alonso crashed into Vettel, damaged his front wing and retired, but at that stage he was going for second place, and even Massa ended up finishing in front of Lotus. Alonso won in China, and Kimi had front wing damage this time, according to the team he was losing time on every lap. In Bahrain Alonso was in front of Kimi but suffered with reliability issues due to DRS and he stopped twice for this issue. Massa had two punctures. And in Spain nothing went wrong except for Grosjean's suspension, but Alonso ended up ahead of Kimi. In all of the races bar Australia, Ferrari where ahead before their reliability caused them problems. Of course it is difficult to tell how things would have ended exactly, especially in Bahrain, but I personally think a pattern might be emerging here.



I guess we are just not talking about exactly the same thing then, since I am referring to realistic potential to win, in my opinion finishing position alone isn't an indicator of pace. But I respect you opinion.


I agree with u!
Stability and continuity in the whole race,as we see,they do very well

#86 Oho

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 06:15

I think this boat is simply black. Or otherwise I'm wearing lotus colours quite a lot, and should charge them for this;)


The color scheme actually seems closer to early McLarens Räikkönen drove, black with silver gray.

#87 MadYarpen

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 07:29

The color scheme actually seems closer to early McLarens Räikkönen drove, black with silver gray.

Someone could also say he advertises JPS cigarettes :drunk:

#88 intelligentsia

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:06

Apparently Kimi will be driving a special 1967 Shelby G.T.500, for some part of the Gumball rally which starts on Saturday. Lotus also donated one of Kimi's steering wheels for the event.
http://whataboutcars...m-gumball-3000/

Posted Image

Edited by intelligentsia, 16 May 2013 - 10:11.


#89 Cool Beans

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 12:45

Apparently Kimi will be driving a special 1967 Shelby G.T.500, for some part of the Gumball rally which starts on Saturday. Lotus also donated one of Kimi's steering wheels for the event.
http://whataboutcars...m-gumball-3000/

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Nice.

...and this year as Team Black Bull from Finland; Kimi Räikkönen driving a special 1967 Shelby G.T.500.

This made me chuckle :lol:

#90 SpaMaster

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 13:59

You were the one who originally started talking about the definition of pace.

No, I just questioned your notion that Lotus does not have real pace.

I dont think you could quite say that Ferrari just fell back in two races.

I did not say Ferrari fell back in two races. They had problems and hence those two races don't provide any real data on their pace during the race.

#91 V3TT3L

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 14:12

Apparently Kimi will be driving a special 1967 Shelby G.T.500, for some part of the Gumball rally which starts on Saturday. Lotus also donated one of Kimi's steering wheels for the event.
http://whataboutcars...m-gumball-3000/

Posted Image

Kimi should be driving the Mustang GT350 Hertz... at least it comes in Lotus livery.

Posted Image

#92 intelligentsia

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 16:10

No, I just questioned your notion that Lotus does not have real pace.


Yes of course the main discussion was about Lotus having real pace or not. But to make your point you obviously talked about your definition of race pace, and then I added my definition of race pace. Then you told me you are not interested in my definition of race pace.

^ It looks like you have no proof to say that Lotus has no real pace. The burden of proof is on you. You can't say they have done only less-stop races, no indications, so it must not be there. Lack of indication does not mean lack of existence. Kimi said in Australia that he could have pushed more. He again said yesterday that if they had switched to 4-stops they could have also posted much quicker lap times. He said they could have done both. Cars that have better race pace have always looked like that. It does not mean they don't have pace. It depend on what you define by pace. I define pace as the time and order at which you finish the race. I could define pace as the order and closeness in which you are in the rankings. Any other form of pace is useless, just like Mercedes'.

Race pace is difficult to define, it has got nothing to do with finishing order, or the order of the WCC. Mclaren was overall the fastest car last season and that didn't help them to win the WCC, although it does tend to even out over a season. It is plainly about being fast in the race, and realistic potential to win. I am not saying Lotus is slow either, I am just saying that they dont have the outright pace to compare against Ferrari or Red Bull, although with Red Bull it also seem to be a track depended issue. Australia was the only place where Lotus showed real pace, and that was 3 months ago, Australia also tend to be a bit of a specialist track. Things evolve with different updates and tracks.

I am not interested in the definition of race pace. I am only interested in the overall pace and that pace is reflected by your finishing position. Out of 5 races, Ferrari fell back in 2 of those races and we don't have data to compare for the overall pace. And in China Kimi was driving with a damaged wing. That leaves us with just two races. Out of the two races, Lotus absolutely smoked it in one of them, won quite comfortably against Ferrari. The other one Ferrari won comfortably. It is 1-1 really. There is no reason to say Lotus does not have real pace.


It is a good thing that you did originally mention how one would define pace, because we were not on the same page as we not referring to the same thing, you cant really have a clear discussion when both parties are not on the same page.




I did not say Ferrari fell back in two races. They had problems and hence those two races don't provide any real data on their pace during the race.


You did, and you didn't really mention much around the circumstances of why they fell back. Personally I think, even if they did have reliability problems you could still have some conclusions about how they were doing.

I am not interested in the definition of race pace. I am only interested in the overall pace and that pace is reflected by your finishing position. Out of 5 races, Ferrari fell back in 2 of those races and we don't have data to compare for the overall pace. And in China Kimi was driving with a damaged wing. That leaves us with just two races. Out of the two races, Lotus absolutely smoked it in one of them, won quite comfortably against Ferrari. The other one Ferrari won comfortably. It is 1-1 really. There is no reason to say Lotus does not have real pace.


Edited by intelligentsia, 16 May 2013 - 16:11.


#93 Alburaq

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 17:02

Unfortunately we didnt see the Lotus's real pace last race in Barcelona. Alonso was only 8 second slower than maldonado last year despite pitting once more. A 4 stop race was the way to go.

#94 alpiner

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 13:21

Former driver Mika Salo, meanwhile, has played down Lotus' fears the team will be overly disadvantaged by the Montreal tweak. Backing the move, the Finn told MTV3 broadcaster: "There didn't seem to be any drivers left who were happy with the tyres. It was clear that something was wrong with them. But I don't think it's anything for Lotus to panic about, as they were also good on last year's tyres. If they are able to use the tyres better now, then they will also use these (new) tyres better," added Salo.


Hmm.

Edited by alpiner, 17 May 2013 - 13:22.


#95 Zava

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 13:25

Hmm.

adds up with what Iridescent said:

I've said this before that pretty much every team in the paddock wants to see the tyres tweaked. Their operating window is crazy.
[...]



#96 SpaMaster

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 13:35

^ That is not true. One of the features of this year's tyres is to broaden the operating window compared to last year. Last year was when it was narrow and even teammates had problems from one to the other. This year, there isn't much problem with operating window with number of laps.

#97 swerved

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 14:06

You did,



:up:


#98 Szoelloe

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 14:19

^ That is not true. One of the features of this year's tyres is to broaden the operating window compared to last year. Last year was when it was narrow and even teammates had problems from one to the other. This year, there isn't much problem with operating window with number of laps.


He didn't say it was too narrow. He said it was crazy. It is true too. Also, actually, most drivers hated the tires from 2011 onwards. The negative comments started in 2011. They are simply a farce, and the concept forced on F1 has been killing racing for three seaons now. Pirelli was new, and teams have been pretty patient for seasons. By now the teams got fed up too, it is too obvious for the general public that the tyres are ruining the spectacle, not adding to it. The delamination is not dangerous, it is a pain in the axx, certainly forcing them to tweak the construction. I don't think Pirelli will do anything that will seriously alter the tyre behaviour and attributes, part of me thinks they are not even capable of doing that. And all this because some jerk at the FIA asked them to make tyres exactly like that? Somehow find that hard to believe.

#99 SpaMaster

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 14:23

:rotfl: Can you stop such a suck-up act and stop just playing with words? I said Ferrari fell back referring to the mechanical problems that dropped them back. She said I could not say they 'just fell back' meaning that they fell back because of lack of race pace. That's not what I said, certainly not 'just fell back'. Both of them were using the words 'fell back' with different meanings. You just need to follow the conversation, it is very simple, instead of carrying petty grudge. Have a good evening!

Edited by SpaMaster, 17 May 2013 - 14:30.


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#100 SpaMaster

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 14:29

He didn't say it was too narrow. He said it was crazy. It is true too. Also, actually, most drivers hated the tires from 2011 onwards. The negative comments started in 2011. They are simply a farce, and the concept forced on F1 has been killing racing for three seaons now. Pirelli was new, and teams have been pretty patient for seasons. By now the teams got fed up too, it is too obvious for the general public that the tyres are ruining the spectacle, not adding to it. The delamination is not dangerous, it is a pain in the axx, certainly forcing them to tweak the construction. I don't think Pirelli will do anything that will seriously alter the tyre behaviour and attributes, part of me thinks they are not even capable of doing that. And all this because some jerk at the FIA asked them to make tyres exactly like that? Somehow find that hard to believe.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Operating window has not been mentioned as a problem in 2011, neither this year. It was mooted as a problem only last year when 7 different drivers won the first 7 races? Sorry, this has nothing to do with operating window. I am quite okay with the Pirelli tyres. Like some would say, it's the same for everyone. There is no reason for teams to get frustrated. It is as much a technical challenge as improving the wet weather set-up, correlating simulation/wind-tunnel data to real data, developing exhaust designs, etc. They are getting frustrated because they are losing out to some other teams and they do not like some of their rival getting better yields than them.