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Lotus E21 (Part 2)


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#3651 jedioriginal

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 19:09

Shiroo you do lie. He does do PR. He just don't like it,and he does it almost as often than other top drivers.

Edited by jedioriginal, 25 August 2013 - 19:10.


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#3652 SpaMaster

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 19:12

People were talking about a retirement and the pace of the car that pretty relevant to the team. 

Lot of people were talking about a lot of things. I am referring to comments like 'abandon ship, abandon ship', and other posts that were saying Kimi should leave the team because of this and that. Shiroo does have a point.


 



#3653 Shiroo

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 19:13

Shiroo you do lie. He does do PR. He just don't like it,and he does it almost as often than other top drivers.

 

oh well you are right. Indeed he does. And I don't blame him for not doing it as often as others. If the team feels happy with as it is, then I don't mind. But if you compare RBR pr work with Lotus pr work then it is pretty big difference



#3654 jedioriginal

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 19:28

Yes Shiroo i do understand your frustation. Its always easier to critize the team than the driver. IMO Lotus and Kimi have been overall a good combo.Only wish they could sort out their financial troubles, but it seems that its not gonna happen anytime soon. Thats why i want Kimi out of lotus,he has maybe 2-3 years left in Formula 1, and in that time Lotus will not be wdc,wcc material. Sorry but thats the truth.

Edited by jedioriginal, 25 August 2013 - 19:30.


#3655 MortenF1

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 19:34

Shame about this weekend for Lotus and Räikkönen. A big shame 'cause I think he'd have been able to run with the top five if he came out of lap one better. Grosjean botched a gear I think, which in turn held up Räikkönen and allowed three cars past. 

Great to see Räikkönen's fantastic race-craft, and how creative he can be in wheel-to-wheel battles. He's amazing to watch sometimes, or quite often really. I'm sorry for him that things turned out like they did, especially when it's Spa. 

"my" pit lane-reporter told us that Räikkönen were changed and leaving the track just minutes after leaving the mixed zone.



#3656 SophieB

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 19:35

Some posts removed. I think the thread might benefit from a reminder about what is and isn't fair game for discussion in this thread.

 

Applying the strict letter of the board rules, if your post isn't talking about the performance of the E21, or talking about possible developments to it, you're probably off topic. It isn't a Lotus team clubhouse thread and it certainly isn't a Kimi Raikonnen thread. A bit of discretion is usually applied towards things like race strategy and so on but if it goes on for too long, someone from the mod team will almost certainly drop by and ask the thread to drop it and discuss the car more directly to get things back on track.

 

Finally, if you think this thread is going in a direction that's harming discussion, or if you don't like a mod decision, please get in touch to discuss it privately. As you can see here (and if you were quick, possibly in a few of the posts I removed), discussing how the thread should be run and moderated just derails it utterly. That's why we insist on having these discussions off-line.

 

So if you feel strongly about the thread or anything I've said here, please send in a PM either to me or another member of the team - you will be listened to carefully. Thanks.



#3657 Shiroo

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 19:46

Yes Shiroo i do understand your frustation. Its always easier to critize the team than the driver. IMO Lotus and Kimi have been overall a good combo.Only wish they could sort out their financial troubles, but it seems that its not gonna happen anytime soon. Thats why i want Kimi out of lotus,he has maybe 2-3 years left in Formula 1, and in that time Lotus will not be wdc,wcc material. Sorry but thats the truth.

 

I'm pretty aware of that. I don't give that much about titles that soon. I just want them to keep the ass up there with the big folks.

I won't say a bad word about the car yet, I will wait till more "common" tracks will be back. Monza will be hard to have a decent result but let's keep fingers crossed



#3658 Oldie

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 22:05

I was following the live timing thru the whole race and Lotus in clean air were, at least in Kimi's hands, having roughly the same pace as P3 (Hamilton most of the time). And that was when Kimi already had the overheating left front brake, which lead to left front tyre to give up way earlier than expected.

So I don't think Lotus were that far off pace that the results might tell. The saturday lottery with the weather and timing just cost too much, and when we add not so bad start, but unfortunate placement in turn 1, with one car retiring because a full retard reason together made the day miserable.

What a reason to be forced to retire and end the record, btw. Just a very unfortunate chain of events, out of anyone's control. Once the brake overheated, there was little the team could do as the damage was already done. I can't see how the team can have done anything better about that.

On one thing I do agree as some pointed out that it has been unreasonably difficult for the Lotus to have "intact weekend", there have always been something that have went wrong, too many "ifs" from too many weekends. They just can't seem to get the maximum out as a team.

Edited by Oldie, 25 August 2013 - 22:07.


#3659 intelligentsia

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 22:37

But whining about the team and asking Kimi to abandon the ship in team thread is odd place isnt it?

Well he doesn't do PR, he doesnt do simulator work and he is old. I didn't lie in any of these. I didn't say a bad word about his work ethics though. He is a great driver, I wouldn't be so sad about his leaving if that wouldn't be the case. And I don't post against Kimi, I post as neutral about him as I can. he is a led driver for my fav team , I just expect him to be on 110% allt he time. And i never criticsed him without a reason. 

 

Also I'm not mad about saying that the team ****ed up something. They do that as often as other teams, they ****ed up horrible in Silverstone for example. yet retarded bashfest that is more and more common ehre (since RBR switch rumors) is just too much. THe guys bring shitload of updates, yet some people whine that they are brining it, then the later they whine that they don't have cash for development.

 

I'm mad because of the unreasonable demands of some "Kimi's fan" that whine whatever the team does. They don't care about Kimi's season this year, they care about his switch to whoever else he can, cause they believe that the Lotus isn't giving the best to Kimi. And that's totally untrue.

 

Of course you dont have to post about Kimi in a positive light, I dont partially care how you post about him. You want Kimi fans to be "thankful" in your own words, while it is okay for yourself to post negative things about Kimi, and as I said you have every right to post what you want, but other people have the same right. So it is basically the same principal that applies here.  

 

Perhaps it is just a matter of perspective at times. Lotus did bring updates, that is good. But they tested the PDRS for one session again and didn't use it in the race, so they lost time there, that is not good. They designed a longer wheelbase somehow for the Spa race,  which I personally was greatly impressed to hear about I really wanted to see how they managed that. That is very impressive, but again this piece didn't make it to the race.  So we were not left with much, a lot of development were promised for this race by Lotus themselves and they released PR statements for that, but unfortunately the most important design pieces didn't work or wasn't there. Surely the team isn't happy with that, they were expecting more going by what they said beforehand. The matter can certainly be addressed more delicately by some of the fans, but at the end of the day Lotus cant be happy with the results. 

 

 

Lot of people were talking about a lot of things. I am referring to comments like 'abandon ship, abandon ship', and other posts that were saying Kimi should leave the team because of this and that. Shiroo does have a point.

 

 

This is also what I am referring to I only saw one such a comment and yet we all have to be subjected to lectures from much more posts then the one original comment, from more then one person, trying to implicate many Kimi fans. That is just as bad as the original comment, and whining only in another form, or perhaps it is worse in some regards when people are constantly being told by more then one person what they should be thinking and how they should be posting. And basically I am almost lecturing myself now to drive how a point. 


Edited by intelligentsia, 25 August 2013 - 22:50.


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#3660 DrF

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 08:08

Extremely frustrating weekend for the team. Very unlucky yesterday to miss the final run in quali after being so quick in Q2 and then getting blocked by DiResta on the grid, forcing both cars to the outside, losing them a stack of places and finally getting scuppered by a visor tear off!

 

Lotus dropped two places in the WDC in one race!

 

All at a track where they really should have at least been on the podium, if not the top step.



#3661 Cyanide

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 08:41

Kimi is out of the title fight now, if he ever had a chance in the first place. 

 

I was hopeful they could improve in the WDC to 2nd spot and in the WCC to 3rd spot but with these kind of performances and bad luck, it's starting to look gloomy. 



#3662 artista

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 09:05

I took this from the Kimi to Ferrari thread to talk a bit about the possibility of Lotus turning again into Renault's works team:

Hope it's okay, when I post it here:
@f1enigma: According to Lopez, Kimi's issue for renewing is that Lotus shouldn't be a customer team in 2014 http://t.co/gD4Y43n2wV


I know chances it happens are low, but López should really try it, especially because (in my opinion) it would make sense for Renault.

I know Renault chose Red Bull as works team but, let's be realistic, how many people does know Renault won the last 3 championships? Almost nobody noticed it. Red Bull, as a trade mark, gets the whole attention and for the average person watching F1, Renault goes totally unnoticed in that team.
I simply don't see which benefit Renault gets having Red Bull as works team.

Lotus, on the other hand, is a team with a good factory, that can do very well with enough money. People are much more aware that Lotus uses Renault engines (than Red Bull) and the Enstone team has done a very, very good job to erase all traces of what could remind of the Singapore affair: visible faces of the team are different, star driver is different, livery is different, name of the team is different.

I know chances of it happening are very low, but I hope the guys in Enstone push hard for it. It seems important voices (like Prost) actually think it's silly to have Renault having Red Bull as works team. Dunno, miracles happen every now and then

#3663 OldSoldier2

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 09:30

I know Renault chose Red Bull as works team but, let's be realistic, how many people does know Renault won the last 3 championships? Almost nobody noticed it. Red Bull, as a trade mark, gets the whole attention and for the average person watching F1, Renault goes totally unnoticed in that team.

Then this is Renault's self-inflicted wound. They are the ones that own a large chunk of Nissan (read Infiniti) and requested that Red Bull be branded as such. It is a lot less expensive to proceed as they have than to buy the Lotus team. The world economy is not strong enough to entice a manufacturer to support a second team. Fizzy drinks on the other hand....



#3664 Trust

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 09:40

Kimi is out of the title fight now, if he ever had a chance in the first place. 

 

I was hopeful they could improve in the WDC to 2nd spot and in the WCC to 3rd spot but with these kind of performances and bad luck, it's starting to look gloomy. 

Just read Hamilton still thinks he can win the title. If he can, then Kimi can also. As he said a few years back: "We will fight as long as arithmetic allows us to".

Lotus should still push for it.


Edited by Trust, 26 August 2013 - 09:40.


#3665 Alburaq

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 10:51

Incredible bad luck... as always... stupid startegy... as always...
____
 

I know Renault chose Red Bull as works team but, let's be realistic, how many people does know Renault won the last 3 championships? Almost nobody noticed it. Red Bull, as a trade mark, gets the whole attention and for the average person watching F1, Renault goes totally unnoticed in that team.


This si not completely true... it depends on the 'category' of person who's watching F1. 'average' is too vague...

Edited by Alburaq, 26 August 2013 - 10:51.


#3666 2ms

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 14:30

I was surprised they didn't run the DDRS at Spa.   Anyone know why Spa isn't a good track to use DDRS?

 

Also, did anyone else notice that Sauber has a very similar system on their car too now (in practice, not in race)?  Ferrari's incredible top speed made me wonder if they might have some kind of system as well, perhaps like the one Red Bull has been seen with previously.


Edited by 2ms, 28 August 2013 - 14:31.


#3667 kimister

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 14:49

I was surprised they didn't run the DDRS at Spa.   Anyone know why Spa isn't a good track to use DDRS?

 

Also, did anyone else notice that Sauber has a very similar system on their car too now (in practice, not in race)?  Ferrari's incredible top speed made me wonder if they might have some kind of system as well, perhaps like the one Red Bull has been seen with previously.

 

I suspect, but wasn't sure since top speed of Ferrari has been good most of the time not just this year. However, if so, it would be sad since Lotus is the inventor of the system, but they couldn't still make it work efficiently.



#3668 Vesuvius

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 14:56

I was surprised they didn't run the DDRS at Spa.   Anyone know why Spa isn't a good track to use DDRS?

 

Also, did anyone else notice that Sauber has a very similar system on their car too now (in practice, not in race)?  Ferrari's incredible top speed made me wonder if they might have some kind of system as well, perhaps like the one Red Bull has been seen with previously.

system still is not working as the team want, Kimi said they did try it and it didn´t bring what team expected/wanted from it so they didnt use it.



#3669 quidam

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 14:58

Because on friday morning, with intermediates, they were destroyed after 3 laps, imposssible to validate the device for a gain or not.



#3670 SpaMaster

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 19:54

In the middle of all this silly season madness, some E21 info

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/109525

Revised Lotus a key test for team's 2014 plans

 

What they are saying is a new type of simulator they have been using for 2014 development would be put to test since the long-wheel base concept comes from a result suggested by this simulator work. It is part of the big investment they made in infrastructure last year, I think.

 

The time has really come for Lotus to  produce a car that would be the absolute best at least in certain tracks and conditions. It was okay to produce this nice race pace car with a sympathy-invoking qualy pace. It is all good so far and it makes a great story. But time is passing and recently I feel that the car has come to need very specific conditions to excel. They need to get out of this selectivity. They need a more well-rounded performance from the car. Look at Ferrari. They sucked for a while in the middle part of the season. But when the car clicks, it absolutely has winning pace. It was the best car in the first third of the season and they seem to have their tail up again. Same with McLaren last year. In short, the Lotus car needs to stop being a poor man's Red Bull and start to become a VIP Lotus of its own. I hope the latest wheel-base development is a step in this direction.


Edited by SpaMaster, 28 August 2013 - 19:55.


#3671 Yoshi

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 19:55

@tgruener: #F1 Lotus won't run passive DRS (DRD) again before Korea. Permane: "It's not worth trying in Monza & Singapore."

#3672 Shiroo

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 19:57

In the middle of all this silly season madness, some E21 info

http://www.autosport...t.php/id/109525

Revised Lotus a key test for team's 2014 plans

 

What they are saying is a new type of simulator they have been using for 2014 development would be put to test since the long-wheel base concept comes from a result suggested by this simulator work. It is part of the big investment they made in infrastructure last year, I think.

 

The time has really come for Lotus to  produce a car that would be the absolute best at least in certain tracks and conditions. It was okay to produce this nice race pace car with a sympathy-invoking qualy pace. It is all good so far and it makes a great story. But time is passing and recently I feel that the car has come to need very specific conditions to excel. They need to get out of this selectivity. They need a more well-rounded performance from the car. Look at Ferrari. They sucked for a while in the middle part of the season. But when the car clicks, it absolutely has winning pace. It was the best car in the first third of the season and they seem to have their tail up again. Same with McLaren last year. In short, the Lotus car needs to stop being a poor man's Red Bull and start to become a VIP Lotus of its own. I hope the latest wheel-base development is a step in this direction.

 

Best description of the Lotus in a long time  :rotfl:  absolutely love it and agree in 100%



#3673 Anja

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 11:58

@tgruener: #F1 Lotus won't run passive DRS (DRD) again before Korea. Permane: "It's not worth trying in Monza & Singapore."

FFS, why do they keep pouring resources into this. It's been worked on for ages and still didn't bring any gains.



#3674 quidam

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 12:30

FFS, why do they keep pouring resources into this. It's been worked on for ages and still didn't bring any gains.

 

It's not you are not running the DRD taht you are pouring resources in it. They just wait the right GP for using it.



#3675 nectar

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 12:38

Gary Anderson said on BBC F1 Forum after the race that a major brake supplier has stopped supplying for some of the teams because of running out of materials. So the teams are using brakes made of other materials or even used ones. This could cause problems to the brake discs. He said (of course before the Lotus' explanation) that he didn't know if this had anything to do with Lotus' brake failure but it was certainly an issue. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk...nd_Prix_Forum/   (around 04:30 into it)



#3676 Konsta

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 12:40

I just cannot comprehend how a visor tear-off could have been the cause. I mean the tear-off weighs 20 grams or sumthin and is made of plastic. Brakes heat up to 1000 degrees C and there is just no frikking way that a piece of plastic would not burn away at the 1st braking. I am not saying that the published reason for DNF was a lie but just a conveniently "Darn, what a rotten luck" -type of excuse.



#3677 Radion

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 12:47

I just cannot comprehend how a visor tear-off could have been the cause. I mean the tear-off weighs 20 grams or sumthin and is made of plastic. Brakes heat up to 1000 degrees C and there is just no frikking way that a piece of plastic would not burn away at the 1st braking. I am not saying that the published reason for DNF was a lie but just a conveniently "Darn, what a rotten luck" -type of excuse.

I guess the tear-off prevented air coming through to cool the brakes.


Edited by Radion, 29 August 2013 - 15:43.


#3678 quidam

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Posted 29 August 2013 - 15:33

The tear off was outside the brake preventing air coming in (the mecanic take it off during pit stop), otherwise it will be burn without any damage to the break.



#3679 DrF

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 05:21

@tgruener: #F1 Lotus won't run passive DRS (DRD) again before Korea. Permane: "It's not worth trying in Monza & Singapore."

Good. Three occasions to set up the car, not 1 or 2.

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#3680 eronrules

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 07:35

Salo doubts visor strip caused Lotus brake failure

 

Finn Salo, however, is not convinced.

“I just cannot believe the reason the team gave for the failure,” he told the Finnish broadcaster MTV3.

“Even the braking duct becomes so hot that, if it had gone in there, it would have melted.

“Lotus also had a brake problem already on Friday, but now all of a sudden it is the [visor] film?”

The former Sauber and Toyota driver said he suspects that Lotus simply got its numbers wrong with a latest technical development.

“If the air is being channelled in a different way, it also might not go cool the brakes in the same way,” said Salo. (GMM.)



#3681 Shiroo

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 08:05

but he said that it blocked the tunnel, it didn't go directly to the break as far as I can recall.



#3682 Vesuvius

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 09:29

but he said that it blocked the tunnel, it didn't go directly to the break as far as I can recall.

Lotus also had problems on Kimi's brakes already friday...so it's a worry. Like Salo said, Kimi's brake problems had massive effect on laptimes...so compared to that his times were strong.



#3683 Oho

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 10:02

I just cannot comprehend how a visor tear-off could have been the cause. I mean the tear-off weighs 20 grams or sumthin and is made of plastic. Brakes heat up to 1000 degrees C and there is just no frikking way that a piece of plastic would not burn away at the 1st braking. I am not saying that the published reason for DNF was a lie but just a conveniently "Darn, what a rotten luck" -type of excuse.

 

Well be that as it may, Räikkönen's first stop was extended (I think) taking couple seconds longer than usual and carbon dust blown by front left was dramatically reduced during the second stint despite it ending what seems like catastrophic failure.



#3684 eronrules

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 10:47

first exclusive picture of the 'long wheelbase' E21  :clap:

 

1263044_510720699014406_1292650059_o.jpg



#3685 falalalalaland

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 14:44

^^ If Kimi really moves to another team, I will miss the team's tweets. They seem to have the funnest PR around.



#3686 OSX

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Posted 30 August 2013 - 23:30

"Picture of the day: Turn 1 at Spa. Webber, Grosjean, Raikkonen."

3zL7YoN.jpg

https://twitter.com/...564691509186560
 



#3687 SpaMaster

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 06:38

Look where Alonso and Raikkonen are in that picture. Alonso got pretty much a free ride through turn 1 and ended up P5 pretty soon. Raikkonen got on the outside of Grosjean, then onto the astro turf, wobbles that caused couple of positions and P9. The situations could have easily been reversed.



#3688 boldhakka

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 14:04

Look where Alonso and Raikkonen are in that picture. Alonso got pretty much a free ride through turn 1 and ended up P5 pretty soon. Raikkonen got on the outside of Grosjean, then onto the astro turf, wobbles that caused couple of positions and P9. The situations could have easily been reversed.


Yeah, but Kimi likes to stick to the outside, probably for good reason given the power characteristics of the Renault and their exhaust. Not sure it could have been "easily" reversed. He's always stuck around the outside at Spa and has usually worked out well for him.

#3689 2ms

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 14:21

What a nightmare to be stuck 4 wide in first turn Spa with two closest neighbors Grosjean and Webber.  It's almost funny.  Are those a Sutil and Perez looming right behind?  I guess it could've been worse... Don't see Maldonado anywhere  :D



#3690 Yoshi

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 10:56

Mercedes-Formel-1-GP-Italien-Monza-5-Sep

Lotus-Formel-1-GP-Italien-Monza-5-Septem

Lotus-Formel-1-GP-Italien-Monza-5-Septem

Lotus-Formel-1-GP-Italien-Monza-5-Septem

Lotus-Formel-1-GP-Italien-Monza-5-Septem

Source: AMuS



#3691 Zesus

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 11:19

Here are some good news for Lotus! :)

 

http://www.lotusf1te...properties.html



#3692 boldhakka

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 11:21

Two-year partnership deal with Dubai-based property investment firm.

#3693 V3TT3L

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 11:36

Lotus will pay Kimi with a property over a dune in the Dubai Bay  :p



#3694 quidam

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 11:52

 

James Allen ‏@Jamesallenonf1

#f1 Good news for Lotus team, my sources say this deal is quite significant http://www.lotusf1team.com/new-heights-with-emaar-properties.html 

 

Good  for Lotus  :clap:



#3695 Vesuvius

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 12:04

very good news for Lotus!:) :clap:



#3696 jedioriginal

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 12:09

very good news for Lotus!:) :clap:

Before celebration it would be nice to know how big suppprt we are talking about as $$$€€€...?

Edited by jedioriginal, 05 September 2013 - 12:10.


#3697 Shiroo

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 12:14

Before celebration it would be nice to know how big suppprt we are talking about as $$$€€€...?

 

well they are pretty rich so i wouldn't suspect small cash like 1-2mln dollars per year. I would expect some 10-20 per year tbh



#3698 emil

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 12:40

I still can't believe they kept those stupid "ears" on the airbox... I bet they add drag, worsening the already poor top speed of the car.


Edited by emil, 05 September 2013 - 12:40.


#3699 Shiroo

Shiroo
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Posted 05 September 2013 - 13:43

I still can't believe they kept those stupid "ears" on the airbox... I bet they add drag, worsening the already poor top speed of the car.

 

poor top speed?... the drag has nothing to do with top speed. Top speed is about gearing, drag reduce acceleration.



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#3700 Raikkonen94

Raikkonen94
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Posted 05 September 2013 - 16:46

When will Lotus -finally- finalise the deal with Inifinity? After every race you either hear Boullier or Lopez saying that the deal should be done before the next race.  And still, we are waiting on that.....