26 replies to this topic

[bradbury west]

Can anyone throw any light on the copyright holder/s of material published in Sports Car and Lotus Owner magazine, which ran from 1957 to 1962 approx.? It was published by Pearl,Cooper Ltd, with Roy Pearl as Editor and David Phipps as Lotus Editor. Were Pearl, Cooper taken over by another publication?

A credited contributor has indicated that he believes the copyright rests with him for his articles, but two articles in which I am interested are uncredited, so are perhaps by David Phipps. His archives etc have been absorbed by Sutton Images, and the staff member there was helpful when I contacted them, so I can e mail them for any information or guidance. The other one is credited to Tony Gilfrin. Does anyone recall him?

At what point, and via what process, do articles become "orphaned"?. Is paraphrasing from the articles, especially when dealing with technical specifications, which are/would be available from other sources, but giving due bibliographical credit, in order, or does that count as plagiarism? They are not short articles, approx 1 page in the magazine for each one. The nature of my project is that I would prefer to copy or in one case quote, verbatim.

All guidance is welcome .

Roger Lund

edit. misspelling.

Edited by bradbury west, 14 May 2013 - 07:50.

[john aston]

Even though I used to be a lawyer I take a very laissez faire attitude to most copyright stuff.Whilst it is absolutely right that one should not use text and images without consent what about when the material is old- and only of value to three anoraks ? Who cares, frankly ?The internet has virtually destroyed copyright as it used to be and I think a commonsense approach is all that is required, Here we have a 50 year old article of no real value to anyone- make some enquiries and ,if you draw a blank, then publish and be damned.In the very unlikely situation of the original owner coming out of the woodwork then make amends by correcting the credit in print . But where the ownership is clear then it is essential to get permisssion and to credit ownership- as I have done myself on many occasions on here to people who have kindly helped with illustrations for articles .

Talking of which- if you submit a piece to a magazine is it yours or theirs? It depends- some mags- and EMAP were buggers for this- would insist you sign a transfer of copyright agreement. They paid you and you sold the text. But in the absence of agreement and especially where no payment is made either there is a strong case to state that the writer retains copyright and has merely licensed usage.But we need to see things in perspective - something may be protected by copyright but that does not give it a value .

Edited by john aston, 14 May 2013 - 06:45.

[Ted Walker]

I think through a long chain of titles it became Car Magazine.

[E1pix]

Whilst it is absolutely right that one should not use text and images without consent what about when the material is old- and only of value to three anoraks ? Who cares, frankly ?

The creator or their heirs, Perhaps?

But where the ownership is clear then it is essential to get permisssion and to credit ownership- as I have done myself on many occasions on here to people who have kindly helped with illustrations for articles.

Please clarify... honoring copyright has to do with who created the piece, at their expense in most racing cases, without which you have no illustrations to benefit you. It possibly not being marked does not make it yours.

... But we need to see things in perspective - something may be protected by copyright but that does not give it a value .

Disappointing.

If it had no value, why would you use it?

[Allen Brown]

I don't think your post was very helpful John. Many people today "take a very laissez faire attitude to most copyright stuff" but that doesn't change the legal position and it doesn't change the moral position.

[D-Type]

Eric, I think we should view a photograph and the text of an article in a relatively low circulation magazine from over 50 years ago differently.

[retriever]

Dear Mr Lund, A publisher colleague of mine republished a title that had been out of print for many years. He undertook research to try and locate the author but to no avail. A note to this effect was detailed in the foreword to the book requesting that if anyone knew of the whereabouts of the author would they please contact the publisher - he being ready to meet a financial accommodation with the author. As it happens some three year after the republishing of the book a relation of the author (now deceased) came forward and a settlement was quickly agreed.

Maybe a similar rider could be detailed in what you are working on to show that you made serious attempts to locate the original copyright holder. If someone does come forward you will be able to make suitable restitution (this only being a small amount of money given the amount of material involved).

Retriever

[Alan Cox]

Eric, I think we should view a photograph and the text of an article in a relatively low circulation magazine from over 50 years ago differently.

Why, pray?

[D-Type]

Because photos have a possible commercial value if someone wishes to publish them. But, apart from those on this forum, I doubt that anybody would be interested in an article in Sports Car and Lotus Owner and even then we would probably be more interested in the facts than in the literary style in which they were presented. Unless the writer was unclear in what they wrote, in which case the precise wording might help.

[john aston]

I don't think your post was very helpful John. Many people today "take a very laissez faire attitude to most copyright stuff" but that doesn't change the legal position and it doesn't change the moral position.

I am a pragmatist; there is no point agonising too long about whether some ancient piece in a forgotten magazine might belong to somebody's estate because most of this stuff has no real financial value .Of course one should make reasonable enquires but I think we should also keep some perspective .There is not an issue with quoting extracts in any case - have done so myself in two published books- I didn't ask Neil Young id I could quote a line or two of 'Cinnamon Girl ' nor Morrissey for a Smiths extract. If I had sung a cover version that might have been rather different. Does anybody really think an article about Lotuses which isf fifty years old has any monetary value ? Credit the writer , get consent if you can but if you can't - so what ?Personally I'd be flattered if somebody quotes one of my articles in fifty years time... And which is better - leave the piece in some ancient magazine which only three people are going to read or give it some new life by quoting it now?.

[bradbury west]

Many thanks for the replies so far, esp Ted, as I have now put a call into Bauer Media, owners of CAR mag, to check with the person there who handles copyright and licensing matters.

I have traced Tony Gilfrin, who was a staff member on SC&LO, until they folded, as asst to David Phipps, who was freelance, so may have retained, or not, the rights to his work, - perhaps the uncredited items. TG is of the viiew that his own article would belong to SC&LO.

He said there was a connection between SC&LO and Motor Racing Magazine, John Webb taking over the defunct SC&LO under his Knightsbridge Group of Publications ( from my Motor Racing Year book for 1961). My 1968 version has it as Knightsbridge Publications (1962) Ltd.

Commenting on other points raised;

1) “But, apart from those on this forum, I doubt that anybody would be interested in an article in Sports Car and Lotus Owner and even then we would probably be more interested in the facts than in the literary style in which they were presented.”

Whilst the project is essentially a personal work for my own enjoyment, I sincerely hope there will be those who will be interested. Also, there are many enthusiasts of the history of motor sport who do not visit this place and who would appear to have wide interests.

2) “….when the material is old- and only of value to three anoraks ?…”

But if one of those anoraks is the copyrightholder, or knows the person who owns the copyright, then I am banjaxed under copyright law unless I follow due process, even to establish an "orphan "

3) “Does anybody really think an article about Lotuses which is fifty years old has any monetary value ?”

It has nothing to do with Lotuses, and as the subject and content are pertinent, then they must surely have a value if only for the right to use/reproduce, particularly as they are the creation and handiwork of various persons, so ownership and the right to grant permission rests somewhere.

I have been fortunate so far with prime sources for information, - the people who were there at the time- along with access to unpublished photographs from their and others' personal archives, in addition to commercially accessible photographs from the likes of Ted and others, along with magazine race reports etc and LAT, all of which can be done via due process. It seems only correct to make sure that all relevant permissions are obtained. It is worth noting that in all of this research over several years only one person has been anything other than totally helpful.
Roger Lund

Edited by bradbury west, 14 May 2013 - 16:43.

[Michael Ferner]

You can always quote verbatim (in fact, you must do so) from any written source, provided you give full biographical credit. It's been done for centuries, and nobody has ever asked for permission. However, if you want to quote the full article, that is another matter, and I would treat it like copyright for a picture - and make it VERY CLEAR that it is not my text!!!

There's no hard rule for quoting - like, say, 50 % of a given text is okay, but no more - it all depends on circumstances. If you write a book of 300 pages, it's okay to fill several pages with quotes, but some would consider it "poor writing". If you have good reasons for quoting, say so (like, "it's never been said more concisely, and to try and paraphrase would be foolish..."). Some readers will not like it, but you can't please everyone.

[fbarrett]

Most magazines these days buy only first-use rights, not exclusive rights, so after that first use, copyright stays with the creator. Not sure of the situation in England back then.

Whatever the legal and practical questions may be, no matter how long ago the article or photo ran, and even if no copyright applied, it is still just a matter of common courtesy to request permission of the creator before using any material other than minor (credited) quotes. Make a call, send an e-mail, or write a letter. The creators will appreciate this effort and--given credit and little else--will almost always cooperate. Even if you can't reach the right person but are questioned later, you can then show that you at least tried to get permission.

I've been involved in hundreds of instances of reprinting articles and photos that were at least 50-years old, often from small club magazines, and we tried to contact everyone, even when the trail was ice cold. You just have to do the legwork.

Frank

Edited by fbarrett, 14 May 2013 - 16:59.

[Michael Ferner]

Eric, I think we should view a photograph and the text of an article in a relatively low circulation magazine from over 50 years ago differently.

Of course they are VERY different, and it has nothing to do with age or circulation. Some people need to think before they post! I can quote an article of the New York Times of today without asking for copyright consent...

Edited by Michael Ferner, 14 May 2013 - 17:05.

[tsrwright]

Good to see some pragmatism here as I feel the copyright laws in some places have lost touch with reality.

In Australia the architect of a building should be credited when a photo of it is published but the newspapers ignore this. The first architect of the National Gallery in Canberra held up extension work for ages because he wasn't happy with what was being proposed (his copyright in the design allowed this).

In the UK, the 70 years of copyright following death of a photographer or publication of the photo (putting it simply) is ludicrous. Of course there are commercial situations where this is appropriate but how on earth are you supposed to work out who owns copyright of ordinary amateur or semi-pro photographers who may be long dead. It is unlikely they made any specific provision in their wills so, unless they did, whom amongst their beneficiaries would now own the copyrights? I believe there was recently an attempt to rectify this situation in the UK but a photographers' lobby killed it.

When the law is an ass then maybe pragmatism is the only answer - along with courtesy of course.

Edited by tsrwright, 17 May 2013 - 03:25.

[David McKinney]

I think I'm right in saying that, in earlier discussions about copyright, the point was made that if "reasonable" efforts are made to trace the owner, and are unsuccessful, said owner would have difficulty in winning a suit against the re-user

Seems the starter of this thread is taking exactly the right approach

The fact is that someone owns the copyright, and if he or his heirs are not traceable, it is considered reasonable to use the material

[Bloggsworth]

If you know who wrote it, say so; if it is not clear in the old copy of the magazine who wrote it say something like "From Sports Car & Lotus Owner, author unknown". You can quote verbatim in the interests of truth if it essential, but are limited to the amount, for instance, in the case of a poem or song you can quote a few lines for purposes of illustration and education; technical specifications, depending on how they are written, are probably the copyright of the manufacturer of the car for which the specifications pertain.

You could add a rider "While every effort has been made to trace the copyright holders of the historical information used in these articles/chapters in some cases it has proved impossible to do so" - That should cover it.

[tsrwright]

There seems to be a consensus here which aligns with what I observe publishers to be doing so I am sure that's the way to go.

[garyfrogeye]

I've seen the following wording used (and used it myself) with old magazine articles. "Copyright for all images remains with the original owner and their inclusion is hereby acknowledged"  but is it really satisfactory?

[Doug Nye]

Only a complete --------- would take issue with re-use of 50 year old material.  The trouble is that there are plenty of --------s around.  And if I'm really honest, even I don't like seeing any of my old stuff recycled to someone else's benefit unless they have asked me first...

 

DCN

[Graham Gauld]

Agreed Doug ..........mind you they are more likely to copy yours than mine but that is just a personal opinion

[elansprint72]

Agreed Doug ..........mind you they are more likely to copy yours than mine but that is just a personal opinion

Don't sell yourself short Graham.... only today my postman delivered one of your books!

 

Inscription inside:  Happy Birthday Darling. All my love, Audrey. xxxxx  1975  

Edited by elansprint72, 09 October 2014 - 19:50.

[Vitesse2]

Don't sell yourself short Graham.... only today my postman delivered one of your books!

 

Inscription inside:  Happy Birthday Darling. All my love, Audrey. xxxxx  1975  

Strewth. I knew Royal Mail were slow, but ...

[bradbury west]

Bump.
Continuing the quest for SC&LO copyright.
Looking on e bay/t'internet recently I saw an ad for something and it was accompanied by the banner heading for Motor Racing magazine, (3/- monthly) which said it incorporated Sportscar Magazine. I have been told that they took over SC&LO when that ceased. Does anyone know if Motor Racing closed as the voice of the BRSCC, if it still exists, or if it was taken over, and if so, by whom?
I appreciate that it is a narrow topic, but I want to quote two articles complete, because of the nature of the pieces, and to quote a couple of others in small parts as salient, or even just to paraphrase these bits in a reported form. The latter is no problem. One quotable one is uncredited so must be assumed to be owned by the magazine, and one article is signed by a staffer to whom I have spoken, so the same must apply.
This point is raised again to try to establish the position so I can be correct in procedure, and also to show due diligence if I draw a blank.
Roger Lund

[Vitesse2]

PM sent, Roger.

[fbarrett]

Roger:

 

You might try contacting Wiiliam Taylor at Coterie Press in Littleton, Colorado (google his web site). He's big in the Lotus world, publishes a Lotus club magazine and Lotus books, so he may know how to proceed.

 

Frank

Edited by fbarrett, 18 January 2016 - 17:39.

[bradbury west]

Richard and Frank, many thanks. With details of a couple of the possible companies passed to me I can easily go down to Companies House, quite local to me here, and check out serving officers' details for contact. I will contact William.
Roger