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Charges pressed against Bernie Ecclestone [merged]


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#51 scheivlak

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 16:39

Story in the Guardian: http://www.guardian....bribery-charges

Ecclestone has maintained his innocence throughout, but has already admitted that he would be forced to resign if charged. He said earlier this year that the sport's owners, CVC Capital Partners, "will probably be forced to get rid of me if the Germans come after me. It's pretty obvious, if I'm locked up".

Ecclestone said on Wednesday: "They haven't told me [about the charges], that's the only problem. I suppose they will eventually, they're going to have to, obviously.

"To be quite honest with you I haven't done anything about any of these things. I haven't bothered. If I have to get bothered, then I'll get bothered."

When it was suggested to Ecclestone he was relaxed about the matter, he said: "Absolutely. 100 per cent. Sooner or later somebody will look into it, which they have, and then they will have to make a decision on what they decide."


(.....)

Suddenly, F1 has more to think about than quick-wearing tyres. There is a shortage of candidates to replace Ecclestone, who is simply inimitable.

From the sport, the favourite would be Christian Horner, the most successful team principal of the modern era; he has won three double world championships in the past three years and is also closer to Ecclestone than any other team boss.

Justin King, the chief executive of Sainsbury's and an avid motor racing fan, is thought to be another possibility.


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#52 Sakae

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 16:45

I would like to see Jean Todt to take over F1 as best possible candidate available I am aware off.

#53 SophieB

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 16:50

I would like to see Jean Todt to take over F1 as best possible candidate available I am aware off.


What, other than the road safety thing, has Jean Todt actually done since taking office? F1 is in a right old mess at the minute with the tyres and as usual, the head of the governing body has been utterly silent.

PS: agree it is super-bad that Autosport and indeed Sky are silent on this story. The BBC F1 site are covering it, though.

Edited by SophieB, 15 May 2013 - 16:56.


#54 Sin

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 16:57

my favorite for replacing Ecclestone is still Lauda... businessman and a little bit different... fits the description...

#55 ensign14

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 17:02

What, other than the road safety thing, has Jean Todt actually done since taking office? F1 is in a right old mess at the minute with the tyres and as usual, the head of the governing body has been utterly silent.

Probably a good thing though. "Don't just do something, stand there!" is sometimes an important mantra.

#56 biercemountain

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 17:04

The F1 media never continues to disappoint when it comes to actually voicing a real criticism of anything regarding F1. I suppose we should take this time to thank them for their continued lack of objectivity on important matters.

That Autosport has not even posted a story on the main page is extremely disappointing.


I agree that it's a shame but I can understand the fear of having your credentials yanked and losing your relationships with team members.

#57 Sakae

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 17:48

I agree that it's a shame but I can understand the fear of having your credentials yanked and losing your relationships with team members.

Framed as you have, what does that say about quality (the truth?) of content we read, and are suppose to pay for?

#58 Sakae

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 17:59

What, other than the road safety thing, has Jean Todt actually done since taking office? F1 is in a right old mess at the minute with the tyres and as usual, the head of the governing body has been utterly silent.

PS: agree it is super-bad that Autosport and indeed Sky are silent on this story. The BBC F1 site are covering it, though.


I would be careful with my judgement for following reasons; first of all, we see that JT works a lot behind the scene, which is new to some observers who are used to how Brits do work (re: MM, Hembery, and some others), and therefore I am not convinced that we know all what he has faced when he turned light on after MM.
Secondly, I am quite certain that dear Jean faced an organization after Max Mosley which has a few people glued to their seats, not ready to leave or change, just because someone new is at the helm. The culture of an organization is quite difficult to turn around 180 degrees, and it may take many years, as opposed to when you start from scratch (as Mr. Obama can attest for you). Point is, JT has proven qualities exhibited at Ferrari days, and he knows F1 inside out, whilst he is a quiet, and very intelligent person. Perfect fit, methinks.

#59 BoschKurve

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 18:06

Framed as you have, what does that say about quality (the truth?) of content we read, and are suppose to pay for?


The truth merely exists as the scribes deem it fit, so long as it does not result in a harsh word or two, or even revoked access from those that hold the keys.

That in lies the problem with modern F1 I suppose. As seen with the tire situation, the reality of the situation was contained behind a dam for about a year, but the pressure inevitably built up to the point where everything came rushing out at one time. A pity because I've never wavered over the past season and a quarter on my thoughts regarding the Pirellis. But the media continued to keep the line of "shut up, this is good for the show" till it became apparent that the show was no longer so much fun. Reality has a pesky way of intruding on the artificially constructed truths perpetuated by the F1 media year after year.

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#60 BoschKurve

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 18:08

I would be careful with my judgement for following reasons; first of all, we see that JT works a lot behind the scene, which is new to some observers who are used to how Brits do work (re: MM, Hembery, and some others), and therefore I am not convinced that we know all what he has faced when he turned light on after MM.
Secondly, I am quite certain that dear Jean faced an organization after Max Mosley which has a few people glued to their seats, not ready to leave or change, just because someone new is at the helm. The culture of an organization is quite difficult to turn around 180 degrees, and it may take many years, as opposed to when you start from scratch (as Mr. Obama can attest for you). Point is, JT has proven qualities exhibited at Ferrari days, and he knows F1 inside out, whilst he is a quiet, and very intelligent person. Perfect fit, methinks.


Todt has done what he should. He was a welcome change after Maximilian's stupidity. Too bad Todt didn't gain the position ten years ago as it might've saved a lot of the headaches we're currently left with, which are all remnants of Mosley's reign of terror.

#61 ApexMouse

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 18:12

I would like to see Jean Todt to take over F1 as best possible candidate available I am aware off.


Oh I'm sure we could find a decent German for it somewhere.

Berger almost qualifies!

#62 Sakae

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 18:16

The truth merely exists as the scribes deem it fit, so long as it does not result in a harsh word or two, or even revoked access from those that hold the keys.

That in lies the problem with modern F1 I suppose. As seen with the tire situation, the reality of the situation was contained behind a dam for about a year, but the pressure inevitably built up to the point where everything came rushing out at one time. A pity because I've never wavered over the past season and a quarter on my thoughts regarding the Pirellis. But the media continued to keep the line of "shut up, this is good for the show" till it became apparent that the show was no longer so much fun. Reality has a pesky way of intruding on the artificially constructed truths perpetuated by the F1 media year after year.

Right, but regardless of Ecclestone's legal issues, fact remains that a credible and respected German sources are now confirming what used to be just a distant possibility. German prosecutors would not be spending years on this without evaluating their position carefully, and we should leave it at that. Next, as mentioned earlier on, the court has to decide whether they want to hear the case, regardless what anybody says, or thinks. I think what is more interesting for me is, how pivotal this event is or will be for F1, and where are we heading tomorrow.

Edited by Sakae, 15 May 2013 - 18:21.


#63 Sakae

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 18:19

Oh I'm sure we could find a decent German for it somewhere.

Berger almost qualifies!

I like German approach to discipline, and I would be delighted, but F1 IMO is not ready to be facilitated by a German person, regardless of brilliance, or any other qualities. Might sound harsh, but when reality sinks in, that's what we have, unfortunately. (Isn't Berger actually Austrian, like Lauda and Wolff)?

#64 BoschKurve

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 18:32

Right, but regardless of Ecclestone's legal issues, fact remains that a credible and respected German sources are now confirming what used to be just a distant possibility. German prosecutors would not be spending years on this without evaluating their position carefully, and we should leave it at that. Next, as mentioned earlier on, the court has to decide whether they want to hear the case, regardless what anybody says, or thinks. I think what is more interesting for me is, how pivotal this event is or will be for F1, and where are we heading tomorrow.


I agree. The only mention I've seen of it on the sites on frequent besides here is a blog that I don't believe looks for F1 media credentials, but I could be wrong on that since it never seemed to be something the author had/has.

Hopefully the court will decide to hear the case.

One possible side effect if in fact the case is heard, is what it means for Daimler's involvement in Formula 1. A German friend a few months ago mentioned it was a very real possibility if MrE found himself in court over bribery, it could lead to a hasty Daimler exit from the sport as after the Siemens problems, no German company can afford to even be near a bribery scandal at this point. It kind of has me wondering if the bringing in of the Big Bad Wolff and Lauda (which was rumored to have been by MrE's insistence) was done as a potential exit plan for Daimler. Those two would likely wind up owning a majority of the team since all they'd have to do is increase their existing shares.

#65 BoschKurve

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 18:33

I like German approach to discipline, and I would be delighted, but F1 IMO is not ready to be facilitated by a German person, regardless of brilliance, or any other qualities. Might sound harsh, but when reality sinks in, that's what we have, unfortunately. (Isn't Berger actually Austrian, like Lauda and Wolff)?


Berger is Austrian.

#66 Sakae

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 18:51

I agree. The only mention I've seen of it on the sites on frequent besides here is a blog that I don't believe looks for F1 media credentials, but I could be wrong on that since it never seemed to be something the author had/has.

Hopefully the court will decide to hear the case.

One possible side effect if in fact the case is heard, is what it means for Daimler's involvement in Formula 1. A German friend a few months ago mentioned it was a very real possibility if MrE found himself in court over bribery, it could lead to a hasty Daimler exit from the sport as after the Siemens problems, no German company can afford to even be near a bribery scandal at this point. It kind of has me wondering if the bringing in of the Big Bad Wolff and Lauda (which was rumored to have been by MrE's insistence) was done as a potential exit plan for Daimler. Those two would likely wind up owning a majority of the team since all they'd have to do is increase their existing shares.

...as a quick note for this is OT, but Mercedes-Benz, pursuant to theirs corporate constitution is not allowed to conduct business under conditions which are being investigated, and should he be convicted. Whilst not confirmed, a prudent law firm during evaluation of CA was considering such possibility and has a game plan that was presented to the Board, I assume, prior they signed on CA. Stay tuned.

Edited by Sakae, 15 May 2013 - 19:02.


#67 BoschKurve

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 19:15

...as a quick note for this is OT, but Mercedes-Benz, pursuant to theirs corporate constitution is not allowed to conduct business under conditions which are being investigated, and should he be convicted. Whilst not confirmed, a prudent law firm during evaluation of CA was considering such possibility and has a game plan that was presented to the Board, I assume, prior they signed on CA. Stay tuned.


I wouldn't say this is off-topic at all Sakae as this all comes back to MrE and the environment he created for F1. I also have no doubt this sort of thing with bribing is only the tip of the iceberg, as it's unlikely this was the first time he ever did such a thing. I can only imagine the skeletons residing in his closet, and what sort of stuff may come spilling out in a trial, if there is one.

I think he well knows Daimler will flee to the hills quickly, hence Lauda and Wolff's purpose for being at the team. I don't know if anyone noticed, but Dr. Zetsche was present in Barcelona, for god only knows what purpose. I don't recall seeing him at any prior grands prix (someone correct me please if he has been) in the past but I found myself wondering what exactly brought him to Barcelona. I can't imagine it necessarily had anything to do with just being there to watch the team itself. He shows up. A few days later MrE is under indictment...coincidence? I think not.

Edited by BoschKurve, 15 May 2013 - 19:35.


#68 Sakae

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 19:28

Returning back a year or so, it was a French source who has predicted changes at Brackley. Some people on Mercedes thread were frowning on that suggestion, but changes were forecasted to take place within a year or two. I do expect therefore more to come, but of course I do not know all details, as it was all tied to CA negotiations...

#69 jonpollak

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 19:40

I like German approach to discipline......


I have a phone number in Chelsea for you Sakae.
Jp

#70 BoschKurve

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 20:37

Jalopnik did a little write up.

http://jalopnik.com/...-an-e-506638945

#71 John Player

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 21:28

my favorite for replacing Ecclestone is still Lauda... businessman and a little bit different... fits the description...


Toto Wolf has better chances

#72 iii

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 21:34

Best news I have heard for years yah

#73 Seano

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 23:25

@Sin

Obviously most of us on here don't know much about the German legal system, but can we take it that after investigation, the German Prosecution Service believe there is a case to answer and have presented it to the Court and now the Court has to decide whether they want to hear the full case and defence?

If that is the case, presumably if the Court decide not to proceed then that is the end of it otherwise the Court thinks that case is reasonably strong and liable to lead to his conviction on the basis of the prosecution evidence that it now has.

Is there anyway he can buy his way out of this? I wonder if he will get his old friend "Spanker" Mosley to defend him (I presume his parents taught him German).

Oi UKIP mob - pipedown for a bit, I'm now liking the sound of these Pan European Arrest Warrants.

Seano

#74 gm914

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 01:08

The F1 media never continues to disappoint when it comes to actually voicing a real criticism of anything regarding F1. I suppose we should take this time to thank them for their continued lack of objectivity on important matters.

That Autosport has not even posted a story on the main page is extremely disappointing.

http://forums.autosp...w...t&p=6270396  ;)

#75 Sin

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 03:30

@Sin

Obviously most of us on here don't know much about the German legal system, but can we take it that after investigation, the German Prosecution Service believe there is a case to answer and have presented it to the Court and now the Court has to decide whether they want to hear the full case and defence?

If that is the case, presumably if the Court decide not to proceed then that is the end of it otherwise the Court thinks that case is reasonably strong and liable to lead to his conviction on the basis of the prosecution evidence that it now has.

Is there anyway he can buy his way out of this? I wonder if he will get his old friend "Spanker" Mosley to defend him (I presume his parents taught him German).

Oi UKIP mob - pipedown for a bit, I'm now liking the sound of these Pan European Arrest Warrants.

Seano


why you asking me this? I have no clue, just translated the text... I don't know anything about how things work.... better ask Sakae he's smart... xD no really he seems to know more than me.. about this...

I could tell you about iron age in germany tho if that helps you

#76 Raelene

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 03:54

It might have been far better if he had moved on a long time ago. He likes to portray an image that he is vital to F1 and things can't possibly work without him. He did a lot of good things to raise F1's profile in the early days, but IMHO he has been operating to the detriment of F1 for a long time. It was the same with MM.


I don't entirely disagree with that... just some people really do forget what he did do for F1..

#77 Raelene

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 03:57

Very similar without the vast majority of the money disappearing off to some banker sleazebags in the virgin islands.



No way

Whether you like him or not - he did do a lot for us fans in terms of our access to F1 through Tv. He also made the team owners a lot of money.



#78 packapoo

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 05:26

Sure Raelene, have a lot of respect for your posts, but Bernie lost track along the way.

People here wanting Todt have forgotten he was top-dog at the red team when favouritism was being handed out.

For someone who, rumour has it was shafted by BCE, Adam Parr comes across as a hard and smart head and knows a bit about the sport and would surely have no favours to grant top his ex employer. (Although Lord knows, they need it.)

#79 Sakae

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 05:40

I read somewhere that Ecclestone procured services of two law firms; one from London, and second in Germany - Thomas Deckers Wehnert Elsner, thus MM was not called to arms, although it is conceivable, that those two might talk privately just about approach how to talk to lawyers. Danger is of course, that MM himself might be called to appear as a witness, one never knows how this ends up.

Edited by Sakae, 16 May 2013 - 05:43.


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#80 klyster

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:06

I could tell you about iron age in germany tho if that helps you


:lol:

#81 TriumphST

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:20

I love Bernie

Would hate to think where F1 would be today without it...as I'm sure many of the teams (and team owners) do..


For a start teams would't be facing perennial financial crises, purely because Ecclestone has been syphoning off monies that ought to have been invested in the F1's development (that includes the teams).

#82 sheepgobba

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:21

Once an Angel to the Devil.

Praise the lord!

#83 Raelene

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:23

Sure Raelene, have a lot of respect for your posts, but Bernie lost track along the way.

People here wanting Todt have forgotten he was top-dog at the red team when favouritism was being handed out.

For someone who, rumour has it was shafted by BCE, Adam Parr comes across as a hard and smart head and knows a bit about the sport and would surely have no favours to grant top his ex employer. (Although Lord knows, they need it.)


Yes Clatter said the same - and as I said a few posts up - I don't entirely disagree with that.

still love Bernie though ;)

#84 Raelene

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:26

For a start teams would't be facing perennial financial crises, purely because Ecclestone has been syphoning off monies that ought to have been invested in the F1's development (that includes the teams).


a number of teams (bosses) have become very very rich men via what Bernie bought to the table...I'm believe this "perennial financial crises (as you put it) " would have happened a lot lot earlier without Bernie's input.



#85 ForeverF1

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:29

a number of teams (bosses) have become very very rich men via what Bernie bought to the table...I'm believe this "perennial financial crises (as you put it) " would have happened a lot lot earlier without Bernie's input.

If you have access to SKY-F1, there is a very frank and open interview with MM discussing BCE among other things.

#86 TriumphST

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:18

a number of teams (bosses) have become very very rich men via what Bernie bought to the table...I'm believe this "perennial financial crises (as you put it) " would have happened a lot lot earlier without Bernie's input.


Show me a team that's making money, most are existing on the largess of car manufacturing sponsors the rest (including Williams) hanging on by the skin of their teeth. Those 'very,very rich' team bosses you allude to even collectively aren't worth a fraction of what Ecclestone's amassed.

'Bernie's input', whats that?

All I can see is his take take take,

#87 Raelene

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:47

If you have access to SKY-F1, there is a very frank and open interview with MM discussing BCE among other things.

Live in Singapore (moving to HK in 2 weeks) so don't have access.

Triumph - look further back to what he has done.....as I said - I don't disagree with what Clatter said (he's overstayed his welcome), but he has also done some good things and made some people very rich in the process.

#88 jimbox01

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:00

I don't entirely disagree with that... just some people really do forget what he did do for F1..

I understand what you're saying, but Mr Ecclestone has never done anything for F1, all he’s ever done is exploit it – initially for the money, but then just to stay in power.

Various parties may have benefitted to a degree from his exploitation, but how much more could have been done had he been working for the benefit of the sport, teams, and fans?

How much has he (or subsequent owners) ever reinvested back into the sport?
What has he ever done to promote grassroots involvement in motorsports?

If he was working for the benefit of the teams, he’d never have [effectively] stolen the commercial rights in the first place, or would at least have offered them a fair and equitable share of the profits right from the very start.

If he was genuinely working for the overall benefit of the sport, he would have reinvested at least some of the profits in things like helping to bring through new (real) talent, helping improve track safety (and layouts), promoting motorsports at the grassroots level.

And as far as fans go, he clearly doesn’t give a toss because if he did, you wouldn’t be paying ridiculous prices for tickets, and getting ripped off left right and centre as soon as you walk through the gate. And why would you take ‘the show’ to far flung corners of the world, when you know there’s no real interest there?
Did he take F1 to South Korea, China, India, Turkey etc. to satisfy the demands of the local fan base, or was it simply because he was offered bucket loads of cash?

He is interested in TV audience figures, because they help maintain and drive up the cost of broadcast rights and advertising, but he doesn’t care if that audience is made up of F1 fans, or house plants – he just wants the TV sets turned on and tuned to the right channel.

You could argue that without him the sport may well have collapsed, (very much doubt it) or even that helping his stooge (dear old Max) oust Balestre from office indirectly helped save the lives of ordinary people by strengthening the FIA, but then what would have happened if he hadn’t weaselled his way into power and given the teams an easy option?

The teams might have been forced to work together eventually anyway and who knows, without someone exploiting the situation for their own personal gain, they could have ended up with a similar structure to the English Premier League. Could we have had a stronger, more successful sport, with more accessibility to a larger fan base?

The sport wouldn't be what it is today without him, but then how much better could it have been if he'd stuck to flogging motorbikes? :)

#89 Buttoneer

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:53

And why would you take ‘the show’ to far flung corners of the world, when you know there’s no real interest there?
Did he take F1 to South Korea, China, India, Turkey etc. to satisfy the demands of the local fan base, or was it simply because he was offered bucket loads of cash?

He is interested in TV audience figures, because they help maintain and drive up the cost of broadcast rights and advertising, but he doesn’t care if that audience is made up of F1 fans, or house plants – he just wants the TV sets turned on and tuned to the right channel.

Agree with most of what you say, but as far as this bit is concerned I believe what Bernie is doing is keeping F1 at the pinnacle. By making sure that F1 is being operated in all the major world economies, regardless of whether many people in the area can afford to turn up, he keeps it world-relevant. If it were restricted to the same old European circuits and a few outliers, it could be dismissed by large chunks of the world population but he's kept it high on the agenda everywhere and he's done so without spending his own cash and making other people (indeed, Governments) spend theirs.

Regardless of whether this is a good or bad thing for the European viewer or fan, he's kept F1 right up there hasn't he? Those new sponsors need to come from the new big economies.

Arrangements like this almost inevitably involve some levels of 'shade' to achieve. Whether you have to take someone for lunch in the best restaurant in town, or have to bung a person of influence a couple of million to make sure he says the right things at the right meetings, there's always something. I would not be surprised if Bernie were to be found guilty for that reason, but much more surprised that he's been caught.

#90 TriumphST

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 11:10

Best news I have heard for years! Like all systems of justice, I imagine the German one works slowly. But it gets there in the end.

Hopefully, this will open a lot of floodgates and more of this wretched little man's crimes and misdemeanours will now come out.


Absolutely agree.

Had total faith in the Munich Prosecutor in the Gribkowsky case, only regret was Ecclestone wasn't in the dock alongside him.

While there is the process while submissions are heard as to whether the case has merit prior to the trial one can imagine the various civil cases pending in NY/ Germany/London getting some impetus from the news while CVC, who can't have been unaware of what was going on in 2005/6 may be crapping their underwear.

Edited by TriumphST, 16 May 2013 - 11:29.


#91 Coops3

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 12:29

It might have been far better if he had moved on a long time ago. He likes to portray an image that he is vital to F1 and things can't possibly work without him. He did a lot of good things to raise F1's profile in the early days, but IMHO he has been operating to the detriment of F1 for a long time. It was the same with MM.


This sums it up for me.

#92 7MGTEsup

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 14:52

Arrangements like this almost inevitably involve some levels of 'shade' to achieve. Whether you have to take someone for lunch in the best restaurant in town, or have to bung a person of influence a couple of million to make sure he says the right things at the right meetings, there's always something. I would not be surprised if Bernie were to be found guilty for that reason, but much more surprised that he's been caught.


I'm getting the feeling that alot of poeple don't realise this is how big business works. Where ever there are huge sums of money there will always be crooks. You don't get to positions of power through being a nice bloke. I'm pretty sure all high powered business men have enough skeletons in there closets to fill a grave yard.

#93 TriumphST

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 15:17

Live in Singapore (moving to HK in 2 weeks) so don't have access.

Triumph - look further back to what he has done.....as I said - I don't disagree with what Clatter said (he's overstayed his welcome), but he has also done some good things and made some people very rich in the process.


No, he's not just 'overstayed his welcome' and given the duplicity of how he acquired the commercial rights in the first place he should never have been there at all....

What he's done is self serving and that's putting it kindly and please don't get me started with his history. But what's emanating from Germany is long overdue and couldn't happen to a better person.

Edited by TriumphST, 16 May 2013 - 19:19.


#94 mattferg

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 15:24

Does anyone else have a "the enemy you know is better than the one you don't" feeling about this?

If Bernie goes, this leaves a massive power vacuum at the top of F1, and who knows who might fill it? It could be another person with a strong vision for F1 - but what if theirs is completely different to Bernie's? This'll be messy.

What if it's a weak leader who doesn't have the balls to balance the interests of CVC/Teams/Drivers/Fans? That could spell the end for F1.

#95 Sakae

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 15:28

Ecclestone is not young anymore and it's time...

#96 Slartibartfast

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 17:01

I could tell you about iron age in germany tho if that helps you

So could Bernie...

Ecclestone is not young anymore...

Was it called the iron age because Bernie owned all the more precious metals?

#97 fer312t

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 18:04

Funny, there's nothing on Autosport about this... :well:

#98 TriumphST

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 19:39

I understand what you're saying, but Mr Ecclestone has never done anything for F1, all he’s ever done is exploit it – initially for the money, but then just to stay in power.

Various parties may have benefitted to a degree from his exploitation, but how much more could have been done had he been working for the benefit of the sport, teams, and fans?

How much has he (or subsequent owners) ever reinvested back into the sport?
What has he ever done to promote grassroots involvement in motorsports?

If he was working for the benefit of the teams, he’d never have [effectively] stolen the commercial rights in the first place, or would at least have offered them a fair and equitable share of the profits right from the very start.

If he was genuinely working for the overall benefit of the sport, he would have reinvested at least some of the profits in things like helping to bring through new (real) talent, helping improve track safety (and layouts), promoting motorsports at the grassroots level.

And as far as fans go, he clearly doesn’t give a toss because if he did, you wouldn’t be paying ridiculous prices for tickets, and getting ripped off left right and centre as soon as you walk through the gate. And why would you take ‘the show’ to far flung corners of the world, when you know there’s no real interest there?
Did he take F1 to South Korea, China, India, Turkey etc. to satisfy the demands of the local fan base, or was it simply because he was offered bucket loads of cash?

He is interested in TV audience figures, because they help maintain and drive up the cost of broadcast rights and advertising, but he doesn’t care if that audience is made up of F1 fans, or house plants – he just wants the TV sets turned on and tuned to the right channel.

You could argue that without him the sport may well have collapsed, (very much doubt it) or even that helping his stooge (dear old Max) oust Balestre from office indirectly helped save the lives of ordinary people by strengthening the FIA, but then what would have happened if he hadn’t weaselled his way into power and given the teams an easy option?

The teams might have been forced to work together eventually anyway and who knows, without someone exploiting the situation for their own personal gain, they could have ended up with a similar structure to the English Premier League. Could we have had a stronger, more successful sport, with more accessibility to a larger fan base?

The sport wouldn't be what it is today without him, but then how much better could it have been if he'd stuck to flogging motorbikes? :)


Well said...and good enough to repeat in its entirety.

Edited by TriumphST, 16 May 2013 - 19:43.


#99 Nick Planas

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 23:10

I understand what you're saying, but Mr Ecclestone has never done anything for F1, all he’s ever done is exploit it – initially for the money, but then just to stay in power.

Various parties may have benefitted to a degree from his exploitation, but how much more could have been done had he been working for the benefit of the sport, teams, and fans?

How much has he (or subsequent owners) ever reinvested back into the sport?
What has he ever done to promote grassroots involvement in motorsports?

If he was working for the benefit of the teams, he’d never have [effectively] stolen the commercial rights in the first place, or would at least have offered them a fair and equitable share of the profits right from the very start.

If he was genuinely working for the overall benefit of the sport, he would have reinvested at least some of the profits in things like helping to bring through new (real) talent, helping improve track safety (and layouts), promoting motorsports at the grassroots level.

And as far as fans go, he clearly doesn’t give a toss because if he did, you wouldn’t be paying ridiculous prices for tickets, and getting ripped off left right and centre as soon as you walk through the gate. And why would you take ‘the show’ to far flung corners of the world, when you know there’s no real interest there?
Did he take F1 to South Korea, China, India, Turkey etc. to satisfy the demands of the local fan base, or was it simply because he was offered bucket loads of cash?

He is interested in TV audience figures, because they help maintain and drive up the cost of broadcast rights and advertising, but he doesn’t care if that audience is made up of F1 fans, or house plants – he just wants the TV sets turned on and tuned to the right channel.

You could argue that without him the sport may well have collapsed, (very much doubt it) or even that helping his stooge (dear old Max) oust Balestre from office indirectly helped save the lives of ordinary people by strengthening the FIA, but then what would have happened if he hadn’t weaselled his way into power and given the teams an easy option?

The teams might have been forced to work together eventually anyway and who knows, without someone exploiting the situation for their own personal gain, they could have ended up with a similar structure to the English Premier League. Could we have had a stronger, more successful sport, with more accessibility to a larger fan base?

The sport wouldn't be what it is today without him, but then how much better could it have been if he'd stuck to flogging motorbikes? :)


One thing most people have overlooked is BCE got Sid Watkins on board. Whatever else people think or write about the sport, don't forget in the so called golden age of F1 before Bernie, drivers died, frequently, horribly, and often inexcusably because of the poor attitude or total incompetence of circuit owners and the governing body. Bernie does actually care about F1, and it's drivers, and he is an enthusiast, BUT he doesn't care what any of us think of him so doesn't bother to say this in public - it's not his style. His hobby has always been doing deals, which many people find distasteful but I suspect many people also wish they had the bottle and mental agility to negotiate like Bernie.

I've never met the guy and have no axe to grind one way or the other but I do think people should be very careful what they wish for...

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#100 EthanM

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 23:54

Lots of fans that have never or will never go to an actual race slag bernie off for bringing F1 to TV (which ironically is how they watch F1) and having races in weird countries blah blah. Bernie has lots of faults, but what is beyond question is that F1 teams churn through 2.5 billion dollars per season. That amount of money, and the amount of progress it brought to F1 from the 80s onwards would have simply been outside the reach of the oh so jolly garagistes. Red Bull is in F1 cause F1 puts its brand in front of millions of sets of eyes every fortnight. Same applies to Santander, Vodafone blah blah blah. All that is possible because F1 is on TV. Not because a bunch of "fans" think they are "passionate" cause they parrot how great Spa is and how awful Tilkedromes are and how Bernie is evil.

endofrant