29 replies to this topic

[swerved]

Self explanatory poll, there are obvious concerns with the tyres, but equally as obviously, for me at least, some of those concerns are not necessarily for selfless reasons, so, is F1 really as unenjoyable as some are claiming, or are there elements that are just frustrated because their favourite driver isn't winning.

I wanted to add a 4th option, some have said that its difficult for fans to follow.understand, personally i think thats an incredibly arrogant thing to say, I have no problems following it, and i'm sure that most fans dont, I'd like to find out if some felt their intelligence was being questioned by those who said it was difficult to follow, and just get a general feeling as to whether comments like that have any bearing.

[Wander]

Compared to what?

[alframsey]

I voted yes in the first two and the agree in the final one. On the whole I do enjoy the show a lot more but there is definitely some fine tuning to be done, the last race was just a joke. The cars looked like they were on formation laps for a large period! I do enjoy the show more nowadays than I did in during the Bridgestone era even if it was more suited to LH's style of driving. In reality I think a lot of the complaining (not all) is being done by Lewis and Vettel fans, if they were both winning races on a regular basis (not that Vettel isn't doing well, he has won a couple) I would expect the complaints to be less. I am guilty of moaning about Pirelli in the aftermath of a race where Lewis has suffered but if I give it some proper thought, I'd take these tyres over the Bridgestones anyday. Albeit with a bit of fine tuning to get the balance spot on.

[Sakae]

No, on the first count.
No, on the second count.
Disagree, on the third count.

An error of judgement should be corrected under strict supervision, instead morphing it stubbornly into opposing positions among three teams. This issue affects more than just narrow group of people.

[P123]

Self explanatory poll, there are obvious concerns with the tyres, but equally as obviously, for me at least, some of those concerns are not necessarily for selfless reasons, so, is F1 really as unenjoyable as some are claiming, or are there elements that are just frustrated because their favourite driver isn't winning.

I wanted to add a 4th option, some have said that its difficult for fans to follow.understand, personally i think thats an incredibly arrogant thing to say, I have no problems following it, and i'm sure that most fans dont, I'd like to find out if some felt their intelligence was being questioned by those who said it was difficult to follow, and just get a general feeling as to whether comments like that have any bearing.

Those that complain about the tyres tend to be (but not exclusively) the teams and their fans who are not winning. Those that defend the tyres tend to be (but not exclsuivley) the teams and their fans who are winning. That's glaringly obvious from reading most of the commenst on here in relation to Pirelli.

Is Pirelli the only issue? Is DRS too much? Do you need 'show tyres' when you have DRS, and vice versa? Shouldn't overtaking be a challenge?

[Ferrari2183]

I voted

No (because it's visually more sedate)
Yes (because it presents a challenge to both engineers and drivers)
Yes (no fundamental change should ever be considered mid-season)

I posted the below in the Pirelli thread but this looks a good place to post it too.

While it is unfortunate that the thread got derailed into something of a Ferrari vs Red Bull cesspit. It has to be said that this will invariably happen when one team does well and the other clambers for change.

As for the type of tyres that Pirelli have produced... It is very difficult to get linear degradation when your mandate is to provide marginal tyres to spice up the racing.

Anyway, I don't have a problem with Pirelli and the racing per sé. I actually enjoy the challenge that these tyres present because I'm just as interested in the finer details of Formula 1 as I am the racing. Pirelli have certainly added another challenging variable to both the engineers and the drivers. I really don't see how that can be a bad thing. The drivers especially have had it way too easy for way too long as far as I'm concerned so the added responsibility of taking care of the tyres and going as fast as possible is quite welcome although a better balance can and should be found (not mid-season though).

The notion that what we have now is not racing is quite absurd really. Formula 1, as far as I'm concerned, is not Need 4 Speed on a Playstation console.

[Skinnyguy]

Yes, as there´s more stuff happening during every part of the race, even if you just pay attention to top 6.

No, as when I started watching I was totally obsessed with it and would make a big deal out of anything, and I´m just slightly obsessed now

Agree, any other reason is not enough to do changes mid-season. Certainly some top teams having so-so shape is not a reason for a change, and 1 mistake to get the desired tyre durability for a certain race is not a reason for a change either.

[racerbaz]

In last weeks Guardian report on the Spanish Grand Prix reporter Paul Weaver who is Alan Henry's successor said :- 'Tyre problems overshadow Alonso's win as drivers get bored by life in the slow lane'.
Alonso is quoted as saying 'I think it is impossible to follow a race ..... too much confusion for the spectators....'
Paul Weaver - '...... the mind-bogglingly expensive sport currently designed to find out who is the best slow driver in the world.....'
'............................tyres which have rendered the sport boring and essentially meaningless as a method fo gauging the best driver'
'............................the monotony we saw in the Ferrari dominated days was real. What we have now is contrived and tedious. .......only the start and the final burst ........are compelling. You may as well watch a football match for the 90 minutes in between times.'
Paul Di Resta is quoted as saying to his engineers on the radio 'Can anyone tell me what's going on ?'
Button says 'It is a right mess ..... people think there's lot's of overtaking so it's great isn't it ? ......we are doing laps 3 seconds slower than a GP2 car did in qualifying and only 6 seconds faster than a GP3 car did in the race. Ther's something very wrong. This is the pinacle of motorsport ............it's so complicated. It's very confusing. I let a car past ..... I don't want to damage my tyres ....... hoping the other guy will damage his'.
Hamilton - I've just been overtaken by a Williams. I couldn't drive more slowly'
Paul Hembury - 'We don't understand why you (the press ?) are all so excited. Unless you want to give Red Bull the tyres to win the championship'.
Paul Weaver - ' Both Alonso and Vettel made brilliant starts yesterday. After that it was time to look away for an hour or so.'
Time for change - who cares who's winning - what a true fan wants is a contest, a fight and a battle where you know what the score is NOW and without a computer !
Even in darts and tiddlywinks everyone knows who is winning !
I have followed Grand Prix racing since Stirling Moss in the Vanwall in 1957 and since DRS and these silly tyres it's the most artificial and false it's ever been.

Edited by racerbaz, 18 May 2013 - 20:54.

[Sausage]

Come on you can not compare eras like that. Half the enjoyment may come from what personalities are in F1 and other regs that influence F1 on the whole.

Thus the 3rd question has no real relation, and according to the FIA is not a matter of opinion anyway.

[Cavani]

those who claims that f1 is unenjoyable seriously needs to bugger off , except maybe for the last race

[Crossmax]

I didn't vote, as I wouldn't say Pirelli 2011 and 2012 is comparable to what we have seen in 2013 (bar Bahrain). To me, the 2011 and 2012 years were better than the Bridgestone era, but 2013 is a bit over the top so far.

[Callisto]

In last weeks Guardian report on the Spanish Grand Prix reporter Paul Weaver who is Alan Henry's successor said :- 'Tyre problems overshadow Alonso's win as drivers get bored by life in the slow lane'.
Alonso is quoted as saying 'I think it is impossible to follow a race ..... too much confusion for the spectators....'
Paul Weaver - '...... the mind-bogglingly expensive sport currently designed to find out who is the best slow driver in the world.....'
'............................tyres which have rendered the sport boring and essentially meaningless as a method fo gauging the best driver'
'............................the monotony we saw in the Ferrari dominated days was real. What we have now is contrived and tedious. .......only the start and the final burst ........are compelling. You may as well watch a football match for the 90 minutes in between times.'
Paul Di Resta is quoted as saying to his engineers on the radio 'Can anyone tell me what's going on ?'
Button says 'It is a right mess ..... people think there's lot's of overtaking so it's great isn't it ? ......we are doing laps 3 seconds slower than a GP2 car did in qualifying and only 6 seconds faster than a GP3 car did in the race. Ther's something very wrong. This is the pinacle of motorsport ............it's so complicated. It's very confusing. I let a car past ..... I don't want to damage my tyres ....... hoping the other guy will damage his'.
Hamilton - I've just been overtaken by a Williams. I couldn't drive more slowly'
Paul Hembury - 'We don't understand why you (the press ?) are all so excited. Unless you want to give Red Bull the tyres to win the championship'.
Paul Weaver - ' Both Alonso and Vettel made brilliant starts yesterday. After that it was time to look away for an hour or so.'
Time for change - who cares who's winning - what a true fan wants is a contest, a fight and a battle where you know what the score is NOW and without a computer !
Even in darts and tiddlywinks everyone knows who is winning !
I have followed Grand Prix racing since Stirling Moss in the Vanwall in 1957 and since DRS and these silly tyres it's the most artificial and false it's ever been.

May I ask why you are still watching then?

[SCUDmissile]

this is a hard one.

F1 is undeniably more entertaining than it was a couple years ago, but I feel maybe it went the wrong way to achieve that. I have got to be honest, I enjoyed F1 when the guys could go flat out more. That was really boring at times, and most people wouldn't like it, but since everything was at the limit, I felt anything could happen, and it did.

The Pirelli + DRS era means, that F1 race are much more eventful, I don't think there is as much suspense, especially when you know Kimi will get the Mercedes before too long. I don't know what you call it, maybe some fans feel the same way and can help me out, but for the want of a better word, the 'pizzaz' isn't there in the same way it was, bar Brazil 2012 which was a crazy title showdown. Ferrari are competitive now in 2013, and they were back in 2008 so I hope my feelings don't have any bias, but IMHO there was more drama.

If the guys who ran the sport stuck with the ground effect GP2 idea for 2013 instead of what originally were meant to be 'interim' changes, we could possibly have had the best of both worlds. But i'm sure even then some would be complaining, so I am happy with what we have now, but still, comparitively there was a lack of climax even though the races these days are pretty enjoyable.

P.S. but have to give props to Pirelli. one of the only things that kept me watching in 2011.

Edited by SCUDmissile, 18 May 2013 - 22:24.

[Blinkandimgone]

At the end of the day if your team is badly affected by the current degredation of the Pirelli tyre your going to complain about it and that there must be changes .... sorry but all the teams had the same amount of testing it's just that some teams done a better job than others in understanding how they work.

[tifosi]

Compared to what?

Ditto.

No way to vote if there is no way to know what other era we are supposed to be comparing.

[Kingshark]

What about 2010? That was a brilliant season and we did not need DRS or Pirelli to make it what it was. We had a handful of classic races, plenty of memorable battles and overtakes, and of course a very exciting championship battle.

We had more overtakes in 2010 than we did in every season since 1989, and a higher overtaking per race ratio than any season since 2003. Not bad considering everyone remembers it as the boring era.

In 2010, you had to work for an overtake. It was possible but difficult. DRS has ruined the art of overtaking and defending For next year, I want Formula 1 to scrap DRS, and bring back Bridgestone.

Also, make cars less dependent on downforce and more reliant on mechanical grip. I'd take traction control and ABS over double diffuser and blown exhaust any day. At least we get closer racing.

However, they should not change the regulations mid-season. That is unfair and makes a championship tainted. Wait until 2014, then make the big changes.

Edited by Kingshark, 19 May 2013 - 00:14.

[Les]

I thought the 2007-2010 era was more exciting than this current one. Its far more exciting than the horrible Schumacher era that came before it though. I hope Pirelli can find a balance. I think they need to change to avoid the tyre failures but I don't think there should be any other changes to avoid giving advantage to Red Bull etc - if they did indeed gain an advantage. As many folk have said its to the credit of Ferrari and Lotus that they have built cars that best handle the tyre situation.

[Jimisgod]

Pirelli era: 2011-13 - This

Current aero rules, no refueling, no Pirelli: 2010 - Slightly better than today.

Current aero rules, yes refueling, no Pirelli: 2009 - Slightly worse than today.

Old aero rules, yes refueling, no Pirelli: 2007-08 - Slightly worse than today.

Old aero rules, yes refueling, no Pirelli: 2001-06 - Much worse than today.

[OfficeLinebacker]

This is the best era of F1 racing that I've been alive/aware for, that's certain.

[Longtimefan]

For me the golden era of F1 was the 60's, 70's and possibly even the 80's.
Yes it was a hard time with a lot of horrific and tragic losses but the drivers had absolutely immense charisma and bravery.

Not knocking today's drivers but most of them are as charismatic as a stick and bravery? Well.. That's not really needed these days I guess.

[Eff One 2002]

To me F1 is in SERIOUS trouble at the moment and the Spanish GP very much highlighted this. As Brundle correctly pointed out F1 has always been about looking after certain components whether it be fuel, tyres or whatever to a certain extent but it has now gone too far. The drivers are having to ponce about at about 7/10ths for too much of the race and that is really hurting F1.

Edited by Eff One 2002, 22 May 2013 - 07:14.

[Juggles]

Those that complain about the tyres tend to be (but not exclusively) the teams and their fans who are not winning. Those that defend the tyres tend to be (but not exclsuivley) the teams and their fans who are winning. That's glaringly obvious from reading most of the commenst on here in relation to Pirelli.

Is Pirelli the only issue? Is DRS too much? Do you need 'show tyres' when you have DRS, and vice versa? Shouldn't overtaking be a challenge?

I've been wondering this as well but I haven't seen it discussed much. If Kingshark's stat about more overtakes in 2010 than any previous season back to 1989 is true, and you then add DRS into the mix, surely that could be the perfect balance of pushing hard, a bit of conservation on high fuel and harder but possible overtakes? The main reason 2010 was interesting was the number of drivers in the title fight, and there were some good races (mainly rain affected), but perhaps DRS could have been the missing ingredient in making that season truly electric.

I don't have a problem with DRS provided it isn't too powerful (the amount of dirty air thrown off by F1 cars is artificial too, why should we accept that but not DRS). I find the effect of the Pirelli tyres on driver battles much more offensive, particularly this season as drivers become more and more cautious (it's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy like Japanese deflation - drivers become ever more terrified of abusing the tyres so they drive ever more conservatively).

It's a shame we never saw what effect the DRS would have had on a processional Bridgestone race.

[Atreiu]

I still think F1 2010 was much better than it gets credit for. Cars, drivers, teams, they were all at their best trying to squeeze tenths and hundreths wherever possible, not going around in circles chasing miraculous set ups while drivers were doing half of what they were capable of. If not for mandatory pit stops and use of both compounds, there would be a whole new window strategy open for each GP with real pushing and/or tyre management.

F-Pirelli has been enjoying and excitable, but it could definitely be better.
I'm too addicted to F1 to not watch it no matter how the 2013 season has been irritating with tyre saving and free overtaking.

Edited by Atreiu, 19 May 2013 - 03:48.

[Jimmy]

I thought the 2007-2010 era was more exciting than this current one. Its far more exciting than the horrible Schumacher era that came before it though.

Agreed. 01, 02, 04 were the real dark days of formula one. 2002 is probably the most boring season on record.

[Kingshark]

2002 was a disaster, even though as a 6 yr. old Schumacher fan I was enjoying it at the time. In hindsight, I wanted Ferrari to win, but not that way. Let's hope that Formula 1 never has to go through such a horrendous season ever again. Without a shadow of a doubt the single worst year in F1 history.

Thankfully though, 2003 was much better and more exciting, which made up for the '02 catastrophe.

Edited by Kingshark, 19 May 2013 - 05:19.

[kenkip]

2002 was a disaster, even though as a 6 yr. old Schumacher fan I was enjoying it at the time. In hindsight, I wanted Ferrari to win, but not that way. Let's hope that Formula 1 never has to go through such a horrendous season ever again. Without a shadow of a doubt the single worst year in F1 history.

Thankfully though, 2003 was much better and more exciting, which made up for the '02 catastrophe.

Well said,even though I am Schumi's biggest fan 2002 was abit over the top.People saying that this version of f1 is boring clearly never watched that season.
I think the pirreli years are fantastic because of the unpredictability,its not just about having the fastest car but also a car that can manage its tyres properly and i think that is a spectace itself.

[Ferrari2183]

Well said,even though I am Schumi's biggest fan 2002 was abit over the top.People saying that this version of f1 is boring clearly never watched that season.
I think the pirreli years are fantastic because of the unpredictability,its not just about having the fastest car but also a car that can manage its tyres properly and i think that is a spectace itself.

This. But apparently people want Need 4 Speed.

[RealRacing]

Compared to what?

Yes

To answer the third question. IMO there are certain instances where changes should be made mid-season no matter what in the interest of the sport. 2009 was such an instance and they let it go, creating many of the problems F1 has now. I think 2013 is another such instance, so yes, changes should be made urgently. F1 should have something like a constitution to guide the spirit of its rules. If these are found to go against it or not to be in line with it, the higher law should prevail. Tyre preservation is fine and has been part of many eras in F1. Having tyres that don't allow what to many is the essence of this sport is not right. Having said that, private interests have always been more important in F1 than the opinion of the fans and they have done such a good job in creating fanatics of teams and drivers as opposed to fans of racing, that I don't see a solution to this unfortunately.

[swerved]

Thanks for the replies so far, some interesting comments, possibly most of which have been aired before in other threads but i wanted to get a feel percentage wise for what peoples general impressions were.

I recall the furore over Red Bulls Flexiwing, and back then i was, and still am, in favour of teams pushing the boundaries with the regs, just as i'm much in favour of drivers having to think about a race, to be more tactically aware, to be clear i think it has gone a little to far, but only a little, certainly not to the point where its spoiling my enjoyment, whilst it may be difficult for some to call it exciting its certainly intruiging.

I guess it just comes down to the old adage of Mr Lincolns about pleasing some of the people some of the time etc.

[FerrariV12]

I'm probably in a minority of one but, Austria aside, 2002 didn't really offend me. And as a Damon Hill fan during my teens I wasn't exactly pleased to see Schumacher doing all the winning, but as a fan of the sport I had to respect the achievement. Sometimes in sport teams/individuals get everything right and dominate for a period of time. It happens. At least then we had a tyre war so with improvements from the Michelin teams 2003 was a lot closer, and 2005 and 2006 allowed someone else to win.

I was no fan of the spec Bridgestones, and my interest definitely dropped a little in 2007, before dropping again in 2011. Much of the debate seems polarised between Pirelli/Bridgestone, in an ideal scenario we'd have both of them plus Michelin and whoever else wants to play.

The "best" tyre as far as I'm concerned, is the one that wins the race. Been that way since the first Grand Prix was won by an underpowered car that was able to spend less time changing tyres than its rivals. Deliberately engineering a tyre to make the car spend MORE time in the pits is still something I can't get my head around.