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Which of the current drivers will break Senna's monaco record?


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#51 ArkZ

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 15:20

None of the mentioned, and possibly none from the current grid.
Alonso is stunning in Singapore ,destroying teammates in avg of 1 second in Q but lack proper car with good traction to prove dominance, but still he can't translate it to Monaco.

Edited by ArkZ, 22 May 2013 - 15:24.


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#52 911

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 15:24

Even though Senna may have inherited victories when others dropped out in front of him, it should be mentioned that he always showed a knack for Monaco:

1984: Q = 13 R = 2
1985: Q = 1 R = DNF
1986: Q = 3 R = 3
1987: Q = 2 R = 1
1988: Q = 1 R = DNF
1989: Q = 1 R = 1
1990: Q = 1 R = 1
1991: Q = 1 R = 1
1992: Q = 3 R = 1
1993: Q = 3 R = 1



#53 HaydenFan

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 15:32

Winning here it a bit of luck. Like someone showed with the wins by Senna, he took advantage of bad luck by his competitors in 3 of those wins to take victory. Top end records are tough to break in F1. I know we will never see Vettel even reach Schumacher (and maybe even Prost). 7 championships will never be reached, and at Monaco, even if you have a car/team/driver super combo of Vettel/Red Bull which is like Senna/McLaren, you still don't have the results here.

This record is similar to Richard Petty's 7 wins at the Daytona 500. Just such a high number I don't see anyone in the modern day being able to reach it, much less break it.

#54 RSNS

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 15:37

Schumacher could have done it but didn't. From the current bunch it seems to me that Alonso is the fastest in Monaco, but I don't believe he'll beat Senna's record (I don't believe he will match Schumacher, either).

But Fangio's 5 titles were thought to be impossible even to match, let alone surpass. If another Schumacher gets to F1 it will be possible.

#55 rasul

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 15:39

Winning here it a bit of luck. Like someone showed with the wins by Senna, he took advantage of bad luck by his competitors in 3 of those wins to take victory. Top end records are tough to break in F1. I know we will never see Vettel even reach Schumacher (and maybe even Prost). 7 championships will never be reached, and at Monaco, even if you have a car/team/driver super combo of Vettel/Red Bull which is like Senna/McLaren, you still don't have the results here.

This record is similar to Richard Petty's 7 wins at the Daytona 500. Just such a high number I don't see anyone in the modern day being able to reach it, much less break it.


I think winning 7 championships is more realistic(especially for Vettel) than winning 7 Monaco GP, but overall I agree with you. Monaco is a unique track.

#56 E.B.

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 15:50

If another Schumacher gets to F1 it will be possible.


Depends whether the quality of the competition is as weak as it was when Schumacher dominated, let alone all the other factors previously mentioned.

In an era where you have four or five Schumachers, you have none.



#57 garoidb

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 17:08

Even though Senna may have inherited victories when others dropped out in front of him, it should be mentioned that he always showed a knack for Monaco:

1984: Q = 13 R = 2
1985: Q = 1 R = DNF
1986: Q = 3 R = 3
1987: Q = 2 R = 1
1988: Q = 1 R = DNF
1989: Q = 1 R = 1
1990: Q = 1 R = 1
1991: Q = 1 R = 1
1992: Q = 3 R = 1
1993: Q = 3 R = 1


I am pretty sure he retired from the lead in 85 (as well as 88 obviously). He only ever lost 4 Monaco GPs, two of which were podium finishes. That is a phenomenal record. I believe all the current leading lights have already lost more than four. By contrast, I think Graham Hill entered 17 Monaco GPs for his five wins (also hugely impressive by the way, and also out of reach of the current generation IMO).

#58 E.B.

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 17:32

I think Graham Hill entered 17 Monaco GPs for his five wins


Drove in 17, and also had a dnq in 1975.

Much as he loved Monaco, I bet he would have happily traded one of those wins for a victory on home soil though.


#59 garoidb

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 17:44

Drove in 17, and also had a dnq in 1975.

Much as he loved Monaco, I bet he would have happily traded one of those wins for a victory on home soil though.


Thanks - I miscounted! He carried on too long, so it might be more representative to say that he won five from his first twelve before incurring serious leg injuries at age 40.

Edit: For comparison, I make this Alonso's twelfth Monaco GP, Massa's eleventh, Kimi's tenth, Lewis's seventh and Seb's sixth.

Edited by garoidb, 22 May 2013 - 17:48.


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#60 joshb

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 18:09

Just off Monaco slightly... will anyone get near Schumacher's 8 wins at one track (France) or his 8 poles at Suzuka or Senna's 8 poles at Imola???
Vettel has 4 poles at Suzuka, Kimi has 3 or 4 wins at Spa, Hamilton 3 wins (and 2 or 3 poles) at Canada

#61 7MGTEsup

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 18:12

As someone said earlier I think this is one I hope never gets beat as Senna deserves to hold at least 1 record (no matter what you may think of him) if not for that laps of concentration in 88 it would have been a clean sweep which is dam impressive for 7 years. And although he had wins that were fortunate who can say other drivers haven't had someone hand them a win through mechanical failure?

#62 Kyo

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 19:20

I doubt any of them will, simply because none of them is really head and shoulders above the rest at Monaco. Also a lot of luck needed to get 6 wins - half of Senna's wins were inherited from people who had mechanical failures in front of him, the rest were won in dominant cars.

:rotfl:

Senna had only one victory in Monaco with a dominant car (1989). He could have 2, but he crashed and can blame only himself in 88. In 87, 90, 91, 92, 93 he certainly didn't have a dominant car.

Good you remember races that he "inherited" but not races he "lost" like 84 that he would had won if they decided to let they drive for 2 more laps before red flagging the race or 85 that he was leading when he retired from mechanical failure. (again both without a dominant car)

Anyway I do not discard the possibility of someone achieving 6 or 7 victories there, after all we may have drivers racing there 18 times like Schumacher, but I doubt someone will ever be considered as good as Senna is in Monaco.

#63 TheThirdTenor1

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 19:53

Just off Monaco slightly... will anyone get near Schumacher's 8 wins at one track (France) or his 8 poles at Suzuka or Senna's 8 poles at Imola???
Vettel has 4 poles at Suzuka, Kimi has 3 or 4 wins at Spa, Hamilton 3 wins (and 2 or 3 poles) at Canada


Schumacher's record at Magny Cours is pretty damn amazing. Especially when you consider that he could have won it 10 or maybe 11 times. In 96 he started from pole but his engine blew up on the formation lap. In 99 he was leading but had a mechanical problem. In 00, he was leading, got passed by DC and then had an engine failure.

#64 charly0418

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 19:58

Giedo Van der Garde or Esteban Gutierrez

#65 Juan Kerr

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 20:17

According to forix and a little memory searching

1987 - Mansell was leading Senna with about 10 secounds when his tubo broke on lap 29
1989 - Dominating
1990 - Dominating
1991 - Dominating
1992 - Mansell much faster, a loose wheel nut made him do an extra pit stop and then couldn't overtake
1993 - Schumacher leading until hydraulics faliure on lap 32

And Senna equally was on the cards to win 84 and 88 but did not for trivial reasons such as those that gifted him the 87 and 93 wins.

#66 Longtimefan

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 23:43

To be honest, only bad luck stopped Schumi from taking it.

He won it 5 times, so was only 1 short of equalling it and 2 short of breaking it.

1993, Schumi miles ahead - Mechanical failure
2000, Schumi miles ahead - Cracked Exhaust
2004, Schumi ahead - Montoya brain fade


#67 Kingshark

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Posted 22 May 2013 - 23:45

2004, Schumi ahead - Montoya brain fade

Trulli would have won with or without that crash. Though Schumacher was leading, he had yet to do another pitstop. Renault were simply faster than Ferrari on that day.

Plus, though I've always been a Schumi fan, brake-testing in the tunnel was not one of his smartest moves.

#68 Jimisgod

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 01:39

Kubica was also very impressive around Monaco but again, he's not racing either


Poor Rob has even less chance than Kamui to return.

Not a good few years for K drivers.


#69 Jimisgod

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 01:39

2004, Schumi brake test - Montoya brain fade


fixed that for you

#70 George Costanza

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 04:27

It will never be topped. Schumacher couldn't do it and he was probably the best chance of it being broken.




This.

There will never be another racing driver as the magic of Monaco with Ayrton Senna.

It was quite unbelieveable to watch Ayrton at Monaco.

#71 George Costanza

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 04:30

Even though Senna may have inherited victories when others dropped out in front of him, it should be mentioned that he always showed a knack for Monaco:

1984: Q = 13 R = 2
1985: Q = 1 R = DNF
1986: Q = 3 R = 3
1987: Q = 2 R = 1
1988: Q = 1 R = DNF
1989: Q = 1 R = 1
1990: Q = 1 R = 1
1991: Q = 1 R = 1
1992: Q = 3 R = 1
1993: Q = 3 R = 1



That is a stunning look.

He could have easily won Monaco from 1984 to 1993 had he had the luck entirely. :eek:

#72 Kingshark

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 04:30

And Senna equally was on the cards to win 84 and 88 but did not for trivial reasons such as those that gifted him the 87 and 93 wins.

In 1984 he would've overtaken Prost and won that race with 2 more laps to go, but if you added another 6 laps to that, Bellof would've gotten them both.

As for 1988, it was his fault for crashing from a 50 second lead.

#73 George Costanza

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 04:32

To be honest, only bad luck stopped Schumi from taking it.

He won it 5 times, so was only 1 short of equalling it and 2 short of breaking it.

1993, Schumi miles ahead - Mechanical failure
2000, Schumi miles ahead - Cracked Exhaust
2004, Schumi ahead - Montoya brain fade



Put 2003 there also... and 2006, of course.

I'd say Michael would have won Monaco 8 times.

#74 Kingshark

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 04:34

2003? Williams were unbeatable on that day.

As for 2006, I agree that he had the pace to win, but really shouldn't have done what he did in Q3.

#75 George Costanza

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 04:37

2003? Williams were unbeatable on that day.

As for 2006, I agree that he had the pace to win, but really shouldn't have done what he did in Q3.



He was only 1.5 seonds behind Juan Pablo in that race and even closer to Kimi who was in second.

Who could forget 1996 as well. He would have won that one; what a lap he did in that session!

I'd say from 1994-2000; Michael would have won it all...

#76 E.B.

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 12:25

In 1984 he would've overtaken Prost and won that race with 2 more laps to go, but if you added another 6 laps to that, Bellof would've gotten them both.


And Bellof would have lost the win after Tyrrell were royally stitched up and thrown out of the championship, so Senna would have won after all!


#77 Skinnyguy

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 13:14

Not much faith in the current grid huh?


Au contraire. They won´t beat it because the grid average is more strong and tight.

#78 PayasYouRace

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 15:38

In 1984 he would've overtaken Prost and won that race with 2 more laps to go, but if you added another 6 laps to that, Bellof would've gotten them both.

As for 1988, it was his fault for crashing from a 50 second lead.


And would then have had the win taken away as all of Tyrrell's results were that year.

Edit: Beaten by E.B. on that one.

Edited by PayasYouRace, 23 May 2013 - 15:39.


#79 PayasYouRace

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 15:42

He was only 1.5 seonds behind Juan Pablo in that race and even closer to Kimi who was in second.

Who could forget 1996 as well. He would have won that one; what a lap he did in that session!

I'd say from 1994-2000; Michael would have won it all...


A tough sell. Maybe he could have, but I don't think he would. Apart from the fact that he crashed out entirely on his own, that day was a really tough day for anyone to win. Only 4 cars were running at the end. Should have been Hill's win to emulate his dad, he took the lead at the start and was never headed until his engine let go. You can count the number of Renault engine failures that year on a single hand.

Edited by PayasYouRace, 23 May 2013 - 15:45.


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#80 Tauhid

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 16:24

Neither driver deserves it to be honest, I don't see any Monaco 'specialist' within those you mentioned. Webber has been a bit lucky to have such a fast car over these years, but no doubt he is good around here but comparing Webber to Senna? Nahhh...Hamilton can bag a win this weekend but even then equal or beat 6 wins, nahhh.

#81 Les

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 18:21

Also Senna had clattered the kerb at the chicane in 84 so might not have lasted the difference, not that we'll ever know.

#82 BoschKurve

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 18:30

Of the current drivers I don't see any of them breaking the record.

There are a couple of outside chances depending on how things go for them in the future.

If anyone does break Senna's record at Monaco, in my opinion, it will be from a future driver generation.

It's just an extremely difficult record to put together because you have to have the right setup on a competitive car. The other thing that goes unmentioned too, is that I believe you have to truly have no fear of anything when driving. As the years go by, and new drivers come into the sport, many will never have competed on tracks that had no margin for error outside of Monaco. We're already sort of at that point just about. It takes a special driver to be willing to go as close as possible to the barriers while knowing any mistake could be enough to end their race. It's why outside of Senna, Schumacher was so good there as well. Alonso also has the mentality those drivers had, so if he did happen to even match Schumacher, I would not be surprised by it.

#83 Melbourne Park

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 22:49

These days its the car that is dominant, not the driver. Hence drivers in the same car finishing within a few places of each is fairly common.

Also drivers can practice circuits in their simulators, a benefit which does equalise drivers a lot IMO.

In Senna's day, the driver was more dominant.

Also, the cars were less safe, and less reliable. And Monaco is circuit which could injure a driver very easily, because of the lack of run-offs, and the dangerous cars. This slowed many drivers down.

The curious thing about Senna was that IMO he could have won a few more ... that wet one with Prost in front of him (I still think Prost was a better driver than Senna, but not at Monaco), when they stopped the race short - I am a bit vague about it, but Senna seemed to deserve that one. And wasn't Senna's first race at Monaco very good, in a really crap car? These days, such a feat could not happen.

Edited by Melbourne Park, 23 May 2013 - 22:53.


#84 Otaku

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 02:18

The curious thing about Senna was that IMO he could have won a few more ... that wet one with Prost in front of him (I still think Prost was a better driver than Senna, but not at Monaco), when they stopped the race short - I am a bit vague about it, but Senna seemed to deserve that one. And wasn't Senna's first race at Monaco very good, in a really crap car? These days, such a feat could not happen.



It's the same race you're talking about. That wet race from 1984 was Senna's 1st at Monaco on a crappy Toleman Hart.

#85 E.B.

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 12:11

Senna deserves to hold at least 1 record (no matter what you may think of him) if not for that laps of concentration in 88 it would have been a clean sweep which is dam impressive for 7 years.


If it weren't for mechanical issues, Stirling Moss would have probably won all 7 of his Monaco GPs (1955-61). He won three and retired from the lead in the other four.

Sorry to revive an aging thread just to say that, but I missed the comment first time round.



#86 holiday

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 12:31

I believe AS deserves this record to keep, although I think it was bit flattering, considering he inherited his last two wins from Mansell and Schumacher through not fault of their own. Also, in 1988 he was too obviously outwitted by Prost (who did very much the same trick on him in Monza again).

#87 holiday

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 12:34

If it weren't for mechanical issues, Stirling Moss would have probably won all 7 of his Monaco GPs (1955-61). He won three and retired from the lead in the other four.

Sorry to revive an aging thread just to say that, but I missed the comment first time round.


:up: Well done. I did not know about that.

MS could have been more successful too, but for some reason Ferrari has not been performing in Monaco since over a decade, with whatever WDC in their cockpit.

Edited by holiday, 08 June 2013 - 12:34.