45 replies to this topic

[Lazy]

Very much looking forward to next year and the arrival of the new power units.

To me this is F1 getting back to the cutting edge of technology, as it should be, the screaming V8/10's are very long in the tooth these days with no interesting developments for a long time now.

ERS should also help to break the stranglehold that aero has held on the sport, with 160 odd bhp available, an efficient system that can provide that power for 1 or 2 extra secs per lap will make a big difference. This along with the Pirelli tyres should bring the emphasis back a long way towards the mechanical aspects of the car.

What really interests me however is the future possibilities for harvesting energy, a F1 car is awash with wasted energy, mainly in the form of noise, heat and kinetic energy. Currently they are just harvesting kinetic energy from the brakes and next year they will be harvesting energy from the exhaust via the turbo but where else could energy be recovered? I have a couple of suggestions and I would be very interested if anybody has more.

1. Suspension.
Currently a lot of energy is wasted here mainly heating up the shocks but it seems to me, with the addition of a coil and magnet, it should be possible to turn some of the energy into electric power whilst at the same time taking some load off the shocks. This could provide more power for the ERS and also enable the use of smaller shocks.
Long term you could imagine a purely electrical suspension with the magnet/coil doing the work of the springs and shocks as well as generating power. Clearly this would lead to active suspension criticisms but then again I could never see the problem with them in the 1st place, especially if that's the direction technology takes us.

2. Heat.
There are materials/devices available that can convert temp gradients into electricity (and vice versa) Thermoelectric Effect. These then could be used to generate electrical power from the massive amount of heat an F1 car generates.

I'm hoping this area will be completely deregulated to allow the teams to explore the possibilities to the full, including no limit to how much you can use power generated as long as it is generated by the car. In time the ratio of power created between combustion and electric would increasingly move toward the electric. This would lead, imo, to a fascinating technical battle, and reduce massively the importance of aero with all it's inherent overtaking issues.

Looking forward to your thoughts.

Edit: I might add that all this has the added benefit of being very much relevant to the road car industry.

Edited by Lazy, 22 May 2013 - 09:04.

[MadYarpen]

They will recover energy from heat next year I think.

[MikeV1987]

I'm more interested with what the manufacturers will do with the technology outside of F1. LaFerrari has a KERS-like system in it already, who knows when that sort of tech will filter down to more common cars.

Edited by MikeV1987, 22 May 2013 - 09:12.

[Lazy]

They will recover energy from heat next year I think.

Really? From what I understood the energy would be kinetic energy harvested from the turbo and brakes, although the turbo could be interpreted as heat recovery.

[EthanM]

screaming v8s and v10 are what F1 should be about. You want to do research on recycling energy you got formula E. But I guess nobody can resist the draw of marketing buzzwords

[Lazy]

screaming v8s and v10 are what F1 should be about. You want to do research on recycling energy you got formula E. But I guess nobody can resist the draw of marketing buzzwords

Dinosaurs.

[MadYarpen]

Really? From what I understood the energy would be kinetic energy harvested from the turbo and brakes, although the turbo could be interpreted as heat recovery.

That's why it is called ERS, and turbo is a part of engine for me. But I'm not sure, maybe someone can back me up/confirm I'm wrong.

[EthanM]

Dinosaurs.

sue me, I prefer dinosaurs to racing priuses and golf carts

[Lazy]

sue me, I prefer dinosaurs to racing priuses and golf carts

That much is clear.

In addition the cars will become a lot quieter as well as more and more power is generated by electric motors and more and more energy is recovered from the exhaust. I'm sure lots of people will hate that too. Personally I think F1 is about optimising the latest technology much more than the visceral experience.

[MadYarpen]

I wouldn't bring noise stuff to this thread, there is already one for this. ERS discussion might be interesting actually.

[Lazy]

That's why it is called ERS, and turbo is a part of engine for me. But I'm not sure, maybe someone can back me up/confirm I'm wrong.

You're right, the turbo is indeed a heat recovery system, is was thinking more along the lines of using thermoelectric materials in the radiators for example,

[Clatter]

I predict an awful lot of ERS related breakdowns next year. KERS has been around a while now and is still not fully reliable, but at least a KERS problem is not race ending. An ERS problem means the car is parked.

[Clatter]

You're right, the turbo is indeed a heat recovery system, is was thinking more along the lines of using thermoelectric materials in the radiators for example,

I can only see that happening when the other methods are not producing enough. With the current limits on ERS use I think harvesting from the turbo and brakes will produce a surplus of energy.

[Lazy]

I can only see that happening when the other methods are not producing enough. With the current limits on ERS use I think harvesting from the turbo and brakes will produce a surplus of energy.

Indeed, I'm assuming that in the future they will relax the limits, hopefully to the extent that you can use any energy that you can recover.

[Lazy]

I predict an awful lot of ERS related breakdowns next year. KERS has been around a while now and is still not fully reliable, but at least a KERS problem is not race ending. An ERS problem means the car is parked.

Agreed.

[Clatter]

Indeed, I'm assuming that in the future they will relax the limits, hopefully to the extent that you can use any energy that you can recover.

I'm sure the limits will be increased at some time, but they said the same for KERS and that hasn't changed at all. So I can see it staying static for a few seasons.

[RealRacing]

sue me, I prefer dinosaurs to racing priuses and golf carts

You have a point there. We all know how racy Priuses are. IMO a time will come, soon apparently, where there will have to be a division of F1: one side going green or directly to the labs and the other going vintage or something like that. There's only so far you can go with the greening before true racing is affected.

[Lazy]

You have a point there. We all know how racy Priuses are. IMO a time will come, soon apparently, where there will have to be a division of F1: one side going green or directly to the labs and the other going vintage or something like that. There's only so far you can go with the greening before true racing is affected.

It's not about green, it's about the most effective racing car. The more energy you can recover the less fuel you need to carry around, the faster the car.

[muramasa]

Prius does race!






















whoops

[Fastcake]

I predict an awful lot of ERS related breakdowns next year. KERS has been around a while now and is still not fully reliable, but at least a KERS problem is not race ending. An ERS problem means the car is parked.

That's a good point there. Especially now that ERS is set to produce so much of the cars power, any sort of malfunction is going to leave a car crippled, even if the car could continue without it. (I don't know exactly if it would have to stop)

Still, reliability has always been part of the sport. It wasn't long ago when engines would break every other weekend, and now you'll be lucky to see one engine failure a season.

I'm sure the limits will be increased at some time, but they said the same for KERS and that hasn't changed at all. So I can see it staying static for a few seasons.

Is that true about KERS? My memory will need refreshing, but I'm sure some of the regulations have changed from the 2009 spec.

[Clatter]

That's a good point there. Especially now that ERS is set to produce so much of the cars power, any sort of malfunction is going to leave a car crippled, even if the car could continue without it. (I don't know exactly if it would have to stop)

Still, reliability has always been part of the sport. It wasn't long ago when engines would break every other weekend, and now you'll be lucky to see one engine failure a season.



Is that true about KERS? My memory will need refreshing, but I'm sure some of the regulations have changed from the 2009 spec.

They would be 160hp down on power, could possibly continue, but unless in the points and very close to the end of the race there would be no point.

The KERS rules are the same now as in 2009.

[CSquared]

You're right, the turbo is indeed a heat recovery system

Is it? Does the turbo get its energy from the heat of the gases or from their pressure and kinetic energy? In other words, are the gases coming out of the turbo significantly colder than when going in? I suppose they're lower pressure so have to be colder just from that. Hard to separate pressure and temp (thanks, Clapeyron).

Good thread, and good to see some interesting engineering back in F1.

[Lazy]

I'm sure the limits will be increased at some time, but they said the same for KERS and that hasn't changed at all. So I can see it staying static for a few seasons.

I'm pretty sure there will be some serious pressure from the car manufacturers to increase these limits, this technology will become ever more prevalent in road cars and they will be keen to demonstrate their prowess in this area.

Ferrari will also be keen I imagine, given how much they seem to hate the domination of aero, and they would be a strong lobbyist.

[Lazy]

Is it? Does the turbo get its energy from the heat of the gases or from their pressure and kinetic energy? In other words, are the gases coming out of the turbo significantly colder than when going in? I suppose they're lower pressure so have to be colder just from that. Hard to separate pressure and temp (thanks, Clapeyron).

Good thread, and good to see some interesting engineering back in F1.

I think it's technically heat recovery because the pressure is derived from heat, as you say, hard to separate. Not being a scientist, to my mind it's turning a spindle which is turning a generator, so it's kinetic

[Clatter]

I'm pretty sure there will be some serious pressure from the car manufacturers to increase these limits, this technology will become ever more prevalent in road cars and they will be keen to demonstrate their prowess in this area.

Ferrari will also be keen I imagine, given how much they seem to hate the domination of aero, and they would be a strong lobbyist.

I think that is pretty much the same wording regarding KERS.

I don't disagree, but won't be surprised if it ends up frozen for at least 2-3 seasons.

[Lazy]

I think that is pretty much the same wording regarding KERS.

[crbassassin]

It's not about green, it's about the most effective racing car. The more energy you can recover the less fuel you need to carry around, the faster the car.

An even more efficient way to race is not to have to carry unnecessary fuel in the car. IMO refueling is the way to go if you want more efficient cars as it lowers the mass of the car and it helps aero efficient.

Edited by crbassassin, 22 May 2013 - 19:28.

[Clatter]

An even more efficient way to race is not to have to carry unnecessary fuel in the car. IMO refueling is the way to go if you want more efficient cars as it lowers the mass of the car and it helps aero efficient.

How does less fuel help aero efficiency?

[crbassassin]

How does less fuel help aero efficiency?

Fuel takes up space. Any obstruction of air flow to the rear wing, sidepod, and diffuser decreases downforce and or increases drag. One example of this is that the engine covers of the 2013 cars are more buckier than the paper thin 2008 ones.

Edited by crbassassin, 22 May 2013 - 19:45.

[DrProzac]

Dinosaurs.

FTW.

[BRG]

Edit: I might add that all this has the added benefit of being very much relevant to the road car industry.

As usual, F1 is bringing up the technological rear. Even my commuter train has regenerative braking (which is essentially KERS) and has done for some years. I wonder if F1 will ever come up with anything innovative that has any real world value?

[Clatter]

As usual, F1 is bringing up the technological rear. Even my commuter train has regenerative braking (which is essentially KERS) and has done for some years. I wonder if F1 will ever come up with anything innovative that has any real world value?

Never really has done.

Many try to make the argument that it's a technology test bed, but that's just not the case.

[Scotracer]

Is it? Does the turbo get its energy from the heat of the gases or from their pressure and kinetic energy? In other words, are the gases coming out of the turbo significantly colder than when going in? I suppose they're lower pressure so have to be colder just from that. Hard to separate pressure and temp (thanks, Clapeyron).

Good thread, and good to see some interesting engineering back in F1.

Short answer: Yes.

Just like how pre and post compressor temps are so different (in a road car engine you can have pre-comp temps of 45C and post of 190C). You're adding energy in the compressor and removing it in the turbine.

[pingu666]

if you could have thin solar panel type surface that would wrap the car, that could be useful
energy recovery from suspension already exists, more for offroaders
could you harvest heat from brake disk/pads ?

[Buttoneer]

Never really has done.

Many try to make the argument that it's a technology test bed, but that's just not the case.

We've had this discussion before in a thread about structural batteries. There is a relatively regular transfer of technology.

Interesting presentation;

Plus an article about how quickly McLaren was able to develop KERS in 2009 and feed back to the Mercedes road car division for subscribers only; http://plus.autospor...m/feature/2361/

This sort of thing will be of interest to the manufacturers, I am sure. All these little ways of harvesting heat and kinetic energy all going to help create new ideas for road cars. I reckon there's scope for harvesting all that fast moving air to generate power.

[Lazy]

We've had this discussion before in a thread about structural batteries. There is a relatively regular transfer of technology.

Interesting presentation;

Plus an article about how quickly McLaren was able to develop KERS in 2009 and feed back to the Mercedes road car division for subscribers only; http://plus.autospor...m/feature/2361/

This sort of thing will be of interest to the manufacturers, I am sure. All these little ways of harvesting heat and kinetic energy all going to help create new ideas for road cars. I reckon there's scope for harvesting all that fast moving air to generate power.

That might be considered a movable aerodynamic device ;)

[Shiroo]

Well imo next year wdc and wcc will go to car that has engine with the most reliable ers. Even with best aero, if ers is out, you will be the sitting duck. Also kers will be more efficient, but cant remember if it is power or duration increase

SEason where the engine and its aids will be most important, om nom nom

[Buttoneer]

That might be considered a movable aerodynamic device ;)

Obviously DRS sets a precedent that it is possible to legislate some spec aspects of movable aero devices. So I reckon we should have a spec central floor area with a pair of venturi tunnels for some nice ground effects and a small windmill at the exit to harvest all that fast moving air with the secondary benefit that if they can keep it spinning even in the slow corners it acts like the huge thing at the back of the Brabham fan car and sucks it to the tarmac. Vrooooooom!

Or it just sucks.

[Lazy]

Obviously DRS sets a precedent that it is possible to legislate some spec aspects of movable aero devices. So I reckon we should have a spec central floor area with a pair of venturi tunnels for some nice ground effects and a small windmill at the exit to harvest all that fast moving air with the secondary benefit that if they can keep it spinning even in the slow corners it acts like the huge thing at the back of the Brabham fan car and sucks it to the tarmac. Vrooooooom!

Or it just sucks.

Awesome, teams will be out head hunting you if you keep coming up with stuff like this

[Skinnyguy]

screaming v8s and v10 are what F1 should be about. You want to do research on recycling energy you got formula E. But I guess nobody can resist the draw of marketing buzzwords

You´re sort of a real life Simpson grampa mate.

Life changes, move on. You can´t keep seeing doom in every single change in the regulations. I bet you were crying loud with 2006 changes and look, you even like V8´s now.

[l12mcg]

just to help on the is turbo kinetic or heat recovery question

they are the same thing, heat is the average kinetic energy of the molecules in the air, so it is a pretty pointless debate

and pressure is how often to they hit a surface (higher temperature, more movement, more pressure)

I could get boring with equations and stuff but whats the point

they seem to use the convention that;

if it is directly from the reduction in the cars velocity = kinetic

from any other source of energy = thermal

so it is using the car as the reference point.

[Buttoneer]

V8's 10's and 12's are all so much off topic fluff and the most on-topic way for that to be included here is if it was all discussed aloud and we harvested the hot air.

[CSquared]

just to help on the is turbo kinetic or heat recovery question

they are the same thing, heat is the average kinetic energy of the molecules in the air, so it is a pretty pointless debate

and pressure is how often to they hit a surface (higher temperature, more movement, more pressure)

I could get boring with equations and stuff but whats the point

they seem to use the convention that;

if it is directly from the reduction in the cars velocity = kinetic

from any other source of energy = thermal

so it is using the car as the reference point.

I'm not debating anything, just trying to understand. I know I'm not supposed to do that on this forum, but . . .

If you were to spin the crankshaft at engine speed without the engine firing, just pumping ambient air, would the turbo still work? How much boost would it generate?

[l12mcg]

I'm not debating anything, just trying to understand. I know I'm not supposed to do that on this forum, but . . .

If you were to spin the crankshaft at engine speed without the engine firing, just pumping ambient air, would the turbo still work? How much boost would it generate?

If you were to spin the crankshaft without the engine firing, the turbo wouldn't do anything anyway, the turbo works by compressing the input air in to the engine (so you get more oxygen) so that the fuel can be burned more efficiently, so without the engine firing it is just a big spinning thing.

so yeah it wouldn't generate boost per se, it would compress the input air but unless I'm being really dense an engine wouldn't even pump air without combustion as that is how it drives the air input output cycles, the turbo being a pump of course would pump air, but it is also trying to be a perpetual motion machine doing that, so maybe not, this is more complex than when it started... I need and engine and a turbo so I can try this haha - I think no, just a big spinning thing

if I'm being completely honest I have to admit i think f1 may have gone down the wrong route (long term) with the ERS idea. ERS types systems (apart from KERS type) aren't the way it is going, where it is really going is most likely direct methanol/methane fuel cells or hydrogen fuel cells. They are so much more efficient than a petrol engine (currently on par with diesel) they just don't last as long currently but frankly that doesn't matter in F1 they have to last about 10 hours. But having said that, given we are going turbo may as well give it something else interesting with the ERS.

[Lazy]

if I'm being completely honest I have to admit i think f1 may have gone down the wrong route (long term) with the ERS idea. ERS types systems (apart from KERS type) aren't the way it is going, where it is really going is most likely direct methanol/methane fuel cells or hydrogen fuel cells. They are so much more efficient than a petrol engine (currently on par with diesel) they just don't last as long currently but frankly that doesn't matter in F1 they have to last about 10 hours. But having said that, given we are going turbo may as well give it something else interesting with the ERS.

I disagree tbh, the "liquid" fuels all have inherent issues which I think make them impractical in the long term.

Distribution and storage require huge amounts of resources especially hydrogen which will require pressurised containers.

Obvious safety issues, Hydrogen with it's tendency to explode and Methanol with it's invisible flames.

Production costs, I'm not sure I've heard of a practical way to produce hydrogen in large quantities and the biomass required to make the Methanol would require massive amounts of arable land that would be better used for food production. Not to mention the temptation for the amoral corporations of this world to start clearing vast areas of rainforest as is happening in Brazil already.

Even if they did go ahead with these there will always be a need for ERS systems provided they are practical.

This is where F1 comes in in my opinion, people have stated that there is little true innovation coming from F1. This may be true but I think it's undeniable that they are very strong at development. They will find ways to make these systems light, efficient and reliable. Then they will become more and more relevant to the auto industry.

I see it the process as a gradual evolution into completely electric cars which are clean, efficient, quiet and reilable. ERS systems, along with battery technology, are what is going to make electric cars practical, especially in terms of range.

On top of all that they are going to make F1 very interesting and go a long way to undermine the dominance of aero that has given the sport so many problems in the last couple of decades. I suspect, and hope, the endless Pirelli threads will disappear next year

[pingu666]

hydrogen is energy negative to produce, or was, so you need a excess of electricity for that