73 replies to this topic

[Owen]

Ferrari's Fernando Alonso has said Red Bull are complaining about the tyres in Formula 1 because they have lost their dominant position.

Ballsy statement. Agree?

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/22624756

[fabr68]

Alonso is wrong. Red Bull is the most dominant team in F1 at the moment.

[pingu666]

so red bull gonna win monaco then.. :\

[One]

Alonso is correct.

[Rybo]

Alonso is wrong. Red Bull is the most dominant team in F1 at the moment.

How so? 2009-11 they had the fastest car, and then enter 2012 they fell back, but were able to turn it up later in the season. Now Mercedes is the fastest over 1 lap, and arguably Ferrari is the fastest over the race distance.

[F1AC]

Has he not realised that Vettel has already won more races than he did at this stage in 2012?

[One]

Has he not realised that Vettel has already won more races than he did at this stage in 2012?

It does not mean that Vettel will keep this trend.

[Kingshark]

Sometimes, when you win too easy for some years, it is difficult to lose some races afterwards

He's absolutely spot-on.

Has he not realised that Vettel has already won more races than he did at this stage in 2012?

So have Alonso and Raikkonen, so what's your point?

Edited by Kingshark, 22 May 2013 - 22:54.

[F1AC]

He's absolutely spot-on.


So have Alonso and Raikkonen, so what's your point?

My point is, Alonso's clueless.
He obviously doesn't remember when Ferrari cried about the tyres after Valencia 2012 qualifying, or the whole 2011 season with the hard.

http://www.gpupdate....stops-in-races/

What happened to that? Oh yeah, he's winning now.

Edited by F1AC, 22 May 2013 - 23:12.

[Kingshark]

My point is, Alonso's clueless.

Oh look, a forum poster who claims to know more about Formula 1 than a former champion. Now here's something new, well, not very new actually.

He obviously doesn't remember when Ferrari cried about the tyres after Valencia 2012 qualifying, or the whole 2011 season with the hard.

http://www.gpupdate....stops-in-races/

What happened to that? Oh yeah, he's winning now.

Horner after Spain 2011 win:


Horner after Spain 2013 win:
http://www.f1fanatic...p-races-horner/

Red Bull are hypocrites too. Of course you're not whining about that though.

Edited by Kingshark, 22 May 2013 - 23:56.

[F1AC]

Oh look, a forum poster who claims to know more about Formula 1 than a former champion. Now here's something new, well, not very new actually.



Horner after Spain 2011 win:


Horner after Spain 2013 win:
http://www.f1fanatic...p-races-horner/

Red Bull are hypocrites too. Of course you're not whining about that though.

I'm not a Red Bull fan, at all.

But you're an Alonso fanboy

Surely it would make more sense to have tyres that benefit the majority rather than 2 teams.

Also, in Spain 2011 the tyres didnt just favour two teams... the amount of stops isn't an issue.

Vettel dominated Bahrain, they've gone one race without a win and suddenly he's talking about how they're complaining because they aren't dominant... I don't think it's that.

Edited by F1AC, 23 May 2013 - 00:09.

[Kingshark]

I'm not a Red Bull fan, at all.

But you're an Alonso fanboy

You're the same guy who claimed that Hamilton had a greater chance of being 2013 champion than Alonso, so I wouldn't be talking.

Surely it would make more sense to have tyres that benefit the majority rather than 2 teams.

Were you watching 2011? Only Red Bull and McLaren were able to turn on the prime tyres.

Also, in Spain 2011 the tyres didnt just favour two teams... the amount of stops isn't an issue.

Again, did you even watch Spain 2011? You're accurately wrong. The tyres did only favor two teams.

Red Bull and McLaren were the only teams able to get heat into the hard tyres, and lapped the entire field because of it, including Alonso himself, who was leading the first 20 laps of that race.

Spain 2011 was worse than Spain 2013, it was impossible to get heat in the tyres for all but two teams.

Edited by Kingshark, 23 May 2013 - 00:14.

[F1AC]

You're the same guy who claimed that Hamilton had a greater chance of being 2013 champion than Alonso, so I wouldn't be talking.


Were you watching 2011? Only Red Bull and McLaren were able to turn on the prime tyres.


Again, did you even watch Spain 2011? You're accurately wrong. The tyres did only favor two teams.

Red Bull and McLaren were the only teams able to get heat into the hard tyres, and lapped the entire field because of it, including Alonso himself, who was leading the first 20 laps of that race.

Spain 2011 was worse than Spain 2013, it was impossible to get heat in the tyres for all but two teams.

Blah blah blah, did the qualifying order dramatically change in 2011? Nope.

It was only Ferrari who struggled with the primes...

[Kingshark]

Blah blah blah, did the qualifying order dramatically change in 2011? Nope.

The qualifying order also changed dramatically in many races throughout 2012, doesn't mean anything.

It was only Ferrari who struggled with the primes...

Wrong, everyone except Red Bull and McLaren did.

Ferrari and Lotus can't get heat in the tyres → Teams fault.
Red Bull and Mercedes can't make the tyres last → Pirelli's fault.

Hypocrite logic.

[F1AC]

The qualifying order also changed dramatically in many races throughout 2012, doesn't mean anything.


Wrong, everyone except Red Bull and McLaren did.

Ferrari and Lotus can't get heat in the tyres → Teams fault.
Red Bull and Mercedes can't make the tyres last → Pirelli's fault.

Hypocrite logic.

Renault were on the podium in the first two races of 2011...
We'll see if Alonso has a tyre failure and a massive crash this weekend, then you'll be wanting them changed.

Until then, we'll see

[Kingshark]

We'll see if Alonso has a tyre failure and a massive crash this weekend, then you'll be wanting them changed.

Of course I would if this happened to any driver.

I have no problem with Pirelli making the tyres structure stronger to prevent delamination, but they are not going to change the actual nature of the tyres, and rightfully not so.

Lotus and Ferrari have build the best car around these tyres. Red Bull need to get over it. If RBR spend as much time trying to fix the issue as they do crying to the media, the problem might solve itself.

You'd think that Newey being as good as he is would have found a solution by now, but appearantly he's not as smart as Pat Fry or Allison?

Edited by Kingshark, 23 May 2013 - 00:25.

[ThadGreen]

I think that he is just playing 'mind games' with Red Bull. Of course he could be trying to lure Vettel to Ferrari so that he, Alonso, can move to Red Bull.

[JimiKart]

Alonso is very smart, these games are great, but he does have a point and I think Dieter is the one least able to handle not dominating... the tears just keep flowing and it's so transparent - win and everything is fine but as soon as they lose everything is not fine... as mentioned above why doesn't Newey just fix it???

[LoudHoward]

Teams adopting positions that benefit them shock. More at 11.

[fabr68]

Of course I would if this happened to any driver.

I have no problem with Pirelli making the tyres structure stronger to prevent delamination, but they are not going to change the actual nature of the tyres, and rightfully not so.

Lotus and Ferrari have build the best car around these tyres. Red Bull need to get over it. If RBR spend as much time trying to fix the issue as they do crying to the media, the problem might solve itself.

You'd think that Newey being as good as he is would have found a solution by now, but appearantly he's not as smart as Pat Fry or Allison?

I though Newey say it was "strange" when Ferrari hired Pat Fry.

[Seanspeed]

My point is, Alonso's clueless.
He obviously doesn't remember when Ferrari cried about the tyres after Valencia 2012 qualifying, or the whole 2011 season with the hard.

http://www.gpupdate....stops-in-races/

What happened to that? Oh yeah, he's winning now.

Nope, Ferrari never cried about the tires after Valencia 2012 qualifying. You're making that up.

You're also making up that Ferrari complained the whole 2011 season about the hard tires. You posted one early worry from Alonso taken from pre-season, but once things got underway, they never complained about it. They acknowledged that their form on the harder tire was a problem quite often, because it was, but they never blamed anybody but themselves for it.

I disagree with what Alonso says a fair bit, but this is just you plain fabricating stories out of thin air.

[RealRacing]

We all know Alonso by now so realize this is just another of his attempts to play mind games. It´s not even surprising anymore, maybe just that he has started so early in the season. Wonder how much of this stuff is influenced by his Samurai complex. In any case, this guy has talked and whined so much before that it´s just like boy crying wolf. Funny, I was reading an article analyzing the whole Pirelli issue, and it said that it´s ironic that this year the "winning because of best car" thing will probably switch to Ferrari and FA. Wonder how he´ll handle it...

[Afterburner]

The phrase 'no s**t, Sherlock' comes to mind.

[fabr68]

We all know Alonso by now so realize this is just another of his attempts to play mind games. It´s not even surprising anymore, maybe just that he has started so early in the season. Wonder how much of this stuff is influenced by his Samurai complex. In any case, this guy has talked and whined so much before that it´s just like boy crying wolf. Funny, I was reading an article analyzing the whole Pirelli issue, and it said that it´s ironic that this year the "winning because of best car" thing will probably switch to Ferrari and FA. Wonder how he´ll handle it...

If stating the obvious is playing ming games, those minds must be pretty weak.

[DKMoto]

Let me guess, if Vettel wins the WDC this year Alonso and his fans will start the "most dominant car in F1 history" revisionism again? Like they do with 2012

[Atreiu]

Does it also mean there is no reason for Ferrari and him not to win?

[Rybo]

Let me guess, if Vettel wins the WDC this year Alonso and his fans will start the "most dominant car in F1 history" revisionism again? Like they do with 2012

I don't think people are serious when they say that, but in context of recent times dominant takes on a new meaning. With this new era of reliability and aero dependence, people don't really retire for mechanical reasons at the top and its hard to overtake. Which means if you have 3 tenths in pure pace then you can really keep a car behind on most tracks because of the turbulent air coming off the back. Add to that the top drivers are crazy consistent and don't make too many unforced errors. And dominant might not seem too "dominant"

[ardbeg]

First of all - Alonso is answering questions and editors are making the headlines.
Second - it is obvious that RBR is not dominating so what is there really to argue about?
Third - the tires ARE crap, there is no way around that, they are designed to be that way on the request of Bernie in the hope of creating a more unpredictable season. They have succeded.
Fourth - I am sure that all drivers, every single one of them, would like to have better tires if it was just about driving around for fun. It isn't, so instead they want tires that gives them an advantage. Anything that gives them an advantage is good. What they do not have, they want to get.

[ashley313]

Alonso's waging war with words only excites everyone but the couple of people he seeks to unsettle. Nothing new.

Those who concentrate on themselves instead of their opponents will always be most satisfied in the end.

[Trust]

Oh look, a forum poster who claims to know more about Formula 1 than a former champion. Now here's something new, well, not very new actually.

Well it's the same stuff with you. You also claim that F2007 was much better than Mclaren, while the same former champion claims contrary. So what it's gonna be?

[Kingshark]

Well it's the same stuff with you. You also claim that F2007 was much better than Mclaren, while the same former champion claims contrary. So what it's gonna be?

I never said that, or at least not the "much better" part.

You're getting off-topic though, he said that Alonso is "clueless" as you'd call it.

[Trust]

I never said that, or at least not the "much better" part.

You're getting off-topic though, he said that Alonso is "clueless" as you'd call it.

Sorry my mistake about "much" better. Only "better" you said in other thread. Nevertheless it's not offtopic. When it suits you, Alonso is telling the truth, when not, then simply, he isn't. You must decide do you trust him or not?

[f1rules]

What i like is that a high profile character finally steps up and fight redbull. For years RB been the masters not only on the track, but of the track, lobying their points of views. They have a good argument prepared for everything like how they now try to loby that this is not F1, because they cannot use their cars to the max, and its more about tire conservation, how they spin it, that this is not in the best interest of the sport etc. They are like the NRA of F1, or if some of you watched "thank you for smoking"
Forexamble. How on earth they got away with the, by hand adjustable front suspension, amazing and extremly good job on their part. So unfortunately i cant blame them. They just played by the rules and on many occasions they set the rules, defining how to go about F1 in 2010 and forward. So ok maybe Alonsos statement is a bit exagerated, but nice that someone finally stepped up and called rbs hand. Otherwise they will lobby until they win.

Edited by f1rules, 23 May 2013 - 06:10.

[SunnyENTP]

What an idiot! If it were not for the help Fiarrari and the Firelli tryes he wont be so bold to make such a claim. It would be funny if he gets beaten by Vettel. Then it would clearly show with the best car he still got beaten.

[beute]

i agree with him.

red bull has lost their once universal advantage of being fast EVERYWHERE.(with the exception of monza maybe...)
they certainly are still fast on some circuits, but it's back to how f1 was from 2005 to 2008, whoever is fastest depends on the track/weekend.

red bull and mercedes blame their problems on the high degradation, but I have yet to see any of them transfering their dominant 1 lap pace even into the first lap of the race, where degradation should not be an issue...
same for the first lap after the pitstop.If it is only degradation that is making mercedes slow, then we should see them return to their qualifying pace after every pitstop eg. being half a second faster then the next best car..but we dont see that, not even for the first lap after the stop...which is on new tires.


in the race the mercedes lacks speed not because the tires are worn out, they are slow from the get go, for whatever reason they dont get the tires to work properly, that is making them slow and causes theseveee tire wear later in their stints.

[Zava]

i agree with him.

red bull has lost their once universal advantage of being fast EVERYWHERE.(with the exception of monza maybe...)
they certainly are still fast on some circuits, but it's back to how f1 was from 2005 to 2008, whoever is fastest depends on the track/weekend.

red bull and mercedes blame their problems on the high degradation, but I have yet to see any of them transfering their dominant 1 lap pace even into the first lap of the race, where degradation should not be an issue...
same for the first lap after the pitstop.If it is only degradation that is making mercedes slow, then we should see them return to their qualifying pace after every pitstop eg. being half a second faster then the next best car..but we dont see that, not even for the first lap after the stop...which is on new tires.


in the race the mercedes lacks speed not because the tires are worn out, they are slow from the get go, for whatever reason they dont get the tires to work properly, that is making them slow and causes theseveee tire wear later in their stints.

watch australia again ;)
IIRC there was an observation in winter testing, that when they started off with mega first laps on a stint, the tyres went away much faster, while when they picked up the pace slower, the tyres lasted longer. not going 0,5 faster than anyone else could be down to this.


OT: so, there is no more "but the car, the car!" excuse for Alonso if he gets beaten by Vettel again? good.

[SealTheDiffuser]

Highly illogical statement. Keep pouring oil into the fire Mr. ALO. You will never be a hero again.

[TheThirdTenor1]

Title is misleading. Better to have an actual quote.

As for his actual quotes, i don't see what is wrong with them.

[TheThirdTenor1]

Alonso's waging war with words only excites everyone but the couple of people he seeks to unsettle. Nothing new.

Those who concentrate on themselves instead of their opponents will always be most satisfied in the end.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

[pUs]

The qualifying order also changed dramatically in many races throughout 2012, doesn't mean anything.


Wrong, everyone except Red Bull and McLaren did.

Ferrari and Lotus can't get heat in the tyres → Teams fault.
Red Bull and Mercedes can't make the tyres last → Pirelli's fault.

Hypocrite logic.

I think you're the one with double standards.

Historically, teams favoured by tires won't complain. Teams struggling will complain. Very natural, very consistent, and the quotes provided prove that perfectly well. But for whatever reason you seem to think Ferrari are different to Red Bull in this regard.. They're not.

[joshb]

Red Bull were only ever dominant in 2011, so it's not like they've just lost it

[TheThirdTenor1]

Red Bull were only ever dominant in 2011, so it's not like they've just lost it

and 2010, and a brief period in 2012.

[rasul]

and 2010, and a brief period in 2012.

I'm sorry, but being great in four races doesn't make the car dominant.

[TheThirdTenor1]

I'm sorry, but being great in four races doesn't make the car dominant.

Hence i said "brief period"

[darkkis]

Hence i said "brief period"

So if car wins a race dominantly, it makes the whole car dominant?

[rasul]

So if car wins a race dominantly, it makes the whole car dominant?

[TheThirdTenor1]

So if car wins a race dominantly, it makes the whole car dominant?

no, don't be silly.

[EthanM]

dominant for a brief period is a ridiculous concept. You can easily squeeze Williams as being "dominant" for a brief period in 2012 too.

Red Bull were only really dominant in 2011. They were one of the 3 competitive teams in 2012 but nowhere near dominant.

[TheThirdTenor1]

dominant for a brief period is a ridiculous concept. You can easily squeeze Williams as being "dominant" for a brief period in 2012 too.

Nice strawman.

when did Williams ever get anywhere close to a front row lockout or a 1-2 finish?

Red Bull were only really dominant in 2011. They were one of the 3 competitive teams in 2012 but nowhere near dominant.

I guess you missed 2010 then?

[EthanM]

Nice strawman.

when did Williams ever get anywhere close to a front row lockout or a 1-2 finish?



I guess you missed 2010 then?

do you understand the meaning of the word dominant?

do you think Merc that locked out the front row in Barcelona a couple of weeks ago are anywhere near a dominant car?