38 replies to this topic

[Dunc]

F1 teams used to look for, and hire, drivers from other series, particularly Indycar. But in the last 10 years, the only people I can think of who have come into F1 after having driven in a series other than F1 (that isn't a feeder) are Bourdais (CART) and Di Resta (DTM).

I can't help but think the teams are missing a trick. A lot of these series have more regular race meetings than F1, which surely must help sharpen up skills like racecraft and car development. Plus, if a champion from another series is from an country with no competitive F1 driver, teams could bring them in as a ready-made star with potential for new sponsorship deals. For example, imagine if Sebastian Loeb got an F1 drive, instant extra French coverage. Ditto Dario Franchitti.

Anyone else think it's time for the teams to start exploring other series again?

[micktosin]

The problem is, there are not many highly ranked drivers like Sebastian Loeb good enough to drive in formula 1. Take for instance Rally, where an injured R kubica was immediately on pace with the current rally drivers, which begs the question about the quality of drivers in the series.

[Clatter]

How about Vettel? Is Formula Renault considered a feeder series?

Allen McNish.
Kimi Räikkönen.

I'd say the testing ban has prevented some getting the nod from non-feeder series.

Edited by Clatter, 23 May 2013 - 15:24.

[TimRTC]

More than possible that a lot of drivers in other series have no interest in the F1 circus - those in the feeder series are keen to come in and will usually have sponsorship.

[Clatter]

More than possible that a lot of drivers in other series have no interest in the F1 circus - those in the feeder series are keen to come in and will usually have sponsorship.

There could be just as many who can't get the sponsorship together and have to take a cheaper path.

[EightGear]

Albers came from DTM like Di Resta.

[HaydenFan]

I know F1 is the tippy top of the racing world, why would some drivers leave? And in case of a driver like Loeb, or a championship winning Franchitti (who tested and seemed on pace for an F1 seat with Jaguar in 2000), why leave their series? They are winning and making really good money.

I think in the case of IndyCar drivers, they just don't want to be the next Michael Andretti. And I think F1 views the same about IndyCar. BMW gave Wheldon an offer for a seat in 2006, but he refused when it came about he would not be guaranteed a race seat. Kanaan and Marco Andretti tested with Honda during the same time and I believe they were not offered, or only offered test roles. So why leave IndyCar for a F1 test role at his age? That's the other issue. These drivers are older than the average F1 rookie. The places more pressure for success as these drivers have a shorter potential F1 career when they join approaching 30 rather than starting out in the early 20's.

DTM is seen as an option for some to the higher level of junior formula. Mercedes has the view to take their drivers from F3 and move them to DTM. That's why we've seen drivers like Di Resta, Jamie Green, Robert Wickens, Pascal Wehrlein, Spengler.

[CSquared]

I think in the case of IndyCar drivers, they just don't want to be the next Michael Andretti.

Don't they want to be the next Villeneuve or Montoya?

[Disgrace]

Sourcing drivers from American open wheel racing hasn't attained a better hit rate than those from European junior formulae in recent times.

Zanardi/JV/Montoya were all sourced by Frank Williams and two were successful. Other than that, it's been Michael Andretti and Bourdais who both flopped like Zanardi.

Edited by Disgrace, 23 May 2013 - 16:23.

[charly0418]

Well its even harder now given that GP2 and GP3 use Pirellis, which prepare drivers for the F1 of today (which as we all know is all about tyre deg)

Also, because of this, there are no drivers going straight from WSR 3.5 to F1, that to me is a little more serious, given that 3.5 races in a lot of the same circuits and in some years has more talent than GP2

[alfa1]

Sourcing drivers from American open wheel racing hasn't attained a better hit rate than those from European junior formulae in recent times.
Zanardi/JV/Montoya were all sourced by Frank Williams and two were successful. Other than that, it's been Michael Andretti and Bourdais who both flopped like Zanardi.

And of course Christiano da Matta, who came to F1 after being the CART champion.
Didnt last 2 years before being replaced.

[discover23]

The problem is, there are not many highly ranked drivers like Sebastian Loeb good enough to drive in formula 1. Take for instance Rally, where an injured R kubica was immediately on pace with the current rally drivers, which begs the question about the quality of drivers in the series.

If I am not mistaken Kubica has always practiced on tintops even before he entered F1.

good thread by the way.

[travbrad]

Well its even harder now given that GP2 and GP3 use Pirellis, which prepare drivers for the F1 of today (which as we all know is all about tyre deg)

Also, because of this, there are no drivers going straight from WSR 3.5 to F1, that to me is a little more serious, given that 3.5 races in a lot of the same circuits and in some years has more talent than GP2

Yep I agree. A lot of the WSR 3.5 drivers are probably better than many of the GP2 drivers, but most teams feel like it's a safer bet hiring someone who has driven on Pirellis.

The testing ban surely doesn't help with this either. If there was more testing available they could try out some of those WSR drivers on Pirelli tyres and see how well they perform.

Edited by travbrad, 23 May 2013 - 19:35.

[pacificquay]

Franchitti is hardly likely to give F1 more coverage in the UK than Button, Hamilton and di Resta already bring.

[Clatter]

Franchitti is hardly likely to give F1 more coverage in the UK than Button, Hamilton and di Resta already bring.

What does that have to do with anything? His chance came and went long before either LH or PdR entered the sport.

[pacificquay]

I was responding to the point made by the original poster

[Dunc]

Franchitti is hardly likely to give F1 more coverage in the UK than Button, Hamilton and di Resta already bring.

Not in the UK. But being married to Ashley Judd and being an Indycar champion could mean he'd bring in American interest.

[pingu666]

tbh some drivers dont thrive in f1 and do well elsewhere, some f1 drivers do very well in f1, and go to dtm and not get anywhere.

montoya in nascar hasnt been the force he was in f1

[charly0418]

Not in the UK. But being married to Ashley Judd and being an Indycar champion could mean he'd bring in American interest.

It won't.

Americans barely follow promising talents like Daly and Rossi

[Clatter]

Not in the UK. But being married to Ashley Judd and being an Indycar champion could mean he'd bring in American interest.

They separated.

[Dunc]

It's a shame age is such an issue. Andretti didn't get into F1 full-time until his mid-30s and his experience in Indycar, NASCAR, sports cars and Formula A helped him to transform Lotus back into a competetive team. I'm sure someone with a similar mixture of experience could help a midfiled team, given the right amount of time.

[stewie]

There would be zero media interest in the UK if Franchitti came to F1. Like there was when he won the Indy 500 last year... Shame really.

While we are on the subject, which current Indycar drivers would do well in F1? In people's opinions?

I'd suggest Simon Pagenaud.

[Dunc]

It's a shame age is such an issue. Andretti didn't get into F1 full-time until his mid-30s and his experience in Indycar, NASCAR, sports cars and Formula A helped him to transform Lotus back into a competetive team. I'm sure someone with a similar mixture of experience could help a midfiled team, given the right amount of time.

[PayasYouRace]

Sourcing drivers from American open wheel racing hasn't attained a better hit rate than those from European junior formulae in recent times.

Zanardi/JV/Montoya were all sourced by Frank Williams and two were successful. Other than that, it's been Michael Andretti and Bourdais who both flopped like Zanardi.

I would argue that Montoya wasn't really sourced from the US anyway. He was already on for a Williams drive after his F3000 championship, and Sir Frank essentially loaned him out to Ganassi in exchange for Zanardi. That's why Button had to leave Williams after a year. Juan Pablo was already set for that seat.

[noikeee]

How about Vettel? Is Formula Renault considered a feeder series?

What? He was leading the World Series by Renault (FR3.5) when he got the Toro Rosso drive. Plenty of drivers have come in from those series, it's the prime feeder series other than GP2.

You may be mistaking it for Formula Renault 2.0, which is a lower level, the one and only driver to jump out directly from there as far as I know was Raikkonen.

[EightGear]

The problem is, there are not many highly ranked drivers like Sebastian Loeb good enough to drive in formula 1. Take for instance Rally, where an injured R kubica was immediately on pace with the current rally drivers, which begs the question about the quality of drivers in the series.

Kubica still has to prove himself on the highest level in rallying.

[Risil]

They separated.

Judd and Franchitti, or America and Indycar?

[Risil]

I would argue that Montoya wasn't really sourced from the US anyway. He was already on for a Williams drive after his F3000 championship, and Sir Frank essentially loaned him out to Ganassi in exchange for Zanardi. That's why Button had to leave Williams after a year. Juan Pablo was already set for that seat.

Was watching stuff from Montoya's two CART years quite recently. Edwards and co. mentioned that Montoya started to seem a lot more relaxed and happy after a certain point in the 2000 season -- which, of course, was code for "He'll be an F1 driver next year". He certainly bore the Ganassi team's terrible luck and preparation with an eerie cheerfulness.

Needless to say, if he'd performed in 1999 like Junqueira or Minassian did in 2001, he wouldn't have got the Williams drive.

[Myrvold]

The problem is, there are not many highly ranked drivers like Sebastian Loeb good enough to drive in formula 1. Take for instance Rally, where an injured R kubica was immediately on pace with the current rally drivers, which begs the question about the quality of drivers in the series.

Instantly with quite a lot of testing. And not against the top drivers. While having a very good car.

[discover23]

Judd and Franchitti, or America and Indycar?

Dario and Judd.

[Otaku]

IMHO thing is that today's F1 cars don't require that much experience to drive, they are so similar to the lower series that any competent driver can almost instantly be running decent lap times. It was different in the past, but times change.

[ChiltonsCats]

There would be zero media interest in the UK if Franchitti came to F1. Like there was when he won the Indy 500 last year... Shame really.

While we are on the subject, which current Indycar drivers would do well in F1? In people's opinions?

I'd suggest Simon Pagenaud.

he would get a lot more coverage and attention in the UK if he drove in F1 even for a year probably, IndyCar doesn't really get any UK coverage beyond on SSN and EPSN that air it anyway.

you would have to look at the most consistent performers on the non-oval tracks, I would say that would give you the best idea as F1 is too different to the oval racing for a fair comparison of performance (imo) but on that basis I would say that Will Power on last season could probably do quite well.

I also think the reason you are seeing some of the ex-F1 drivers doing better in IndyCar of late is the move toward more road/street circuits which probably suit their driving style/experience better.

that would be my musings anyway.

[zawisza]

Kubica still has to prove himself on the highest level in rallying.

Agree, it's too early to say he's as good in rallying as he was on race circuits.

Edited by zawisza, 24 May 2013 - 07:32.

[Imperial]

Interesting thread, but I don't believe F1 teams are missing a trick at all.

I'm not convinced that Indycar is an entirely different discipline, as some journos may have us believe, but I just don't think the guys (and girls) who reach Indycar are right for F1. Not necessarily that they aren't good enough, just not right. You only have to look at their background and career history to see that. Taking a holistic view, the vast majority of them either never raced in Europe and so missed out on many many things, including the culture both racing and otherwise, the circuits, the variable weather conditions, how they stack up against their opponents (the drivers in F1 have generally usually been up against each other for many years in many series). Those that did race in Europe tend to have had their European careers fizzle out for whatever reason or often just didn't have success despite no lack of trying.

You can't just take a driver who has raced in America/South America all his life, who may even be an Indycar success, and transplant him into F1 as an expected winner.

I don't think some of the names mentioned above are even a fair comparison of the OPs original question, namely Zanardi/Montoya/Franchitti/Bourdais.

Zanardi was an F1 driver before he was a CART driver and he wasn't too good the first time round.

Montoya was a successful racer in Europe and already signed to Williams, who farmed him to to Chip Ganassi as both Williams seats were secured for Ralf Schumacher and Zanardi (followed by Jenson Button when Zanardi was dropped).

Franchitti was given a test at Jaguar, although by all accounts (not just his) he was somewhat stitched up. There were question marks over strange fuel loads and tyre choices he was given before being sent out on track in changing weather conditions. This was all of course before he was a multiple-champion, so who knows how he'd stack up now.

Bourdais, like Montoya, was another successful European racer who hit it off in the US and came back. He did flop in F1, who knows why. RBR politics? Out of the loop in Europe/European single-seaters too long?

You look at the situation in reverse though and the guys not raised in the US have generally been a resounding success when they've gone to Indycar: Mansell, (E) Fittipaldi, Zanardi, Montoya, Franchitti, Bourdais. Mark Blundell was a winner. Sato is getting a name for himself in Indycar now he has a few years under his belt. Barrichello was showing flashes of good performance to, I would wager he'd have done very well given a couple more seasons. There have been more. As with the comment about Kubica taking seasoned rally drivers back to school, does this not show that the majority of Indycar drivers just aren't up to scratch in comparison with their European-schooled counterparts?

Edited by Imperial, 24 May 2013 - 10:51.

[PayasYouRace]

Was watching stuff from Montoya's two CART years quite recently. Edwards and co. mentioned that Montoya started to seem a lot more relaxed and happy after a certain point in the 2000 season -- which, of course, was code for "He'll be an F1 driver next year". He certainly bore the Ganassi team's terrible luck and preparation with an eerie cheerfulness.

Needless to say, if he'd performed in 1999 like Junqueira or Minassian did in 2001, he wouldn't have got the Williams drive.

Indeed. It's true that Montoya's Williams seat was not safe until his bum was in the seat. He impressed with Ganassi enough to keep his foot in.

Junqueira and Minassian in 2001 must be one of the biggest disappointments in CART. Bruno did eventually improve of course, but it probably helped when Ganassi put Memo Gidley in the other car mid-season.

[wewantourdarbyback]

There would be zero media interest in the UK if Franchitti came to F1. Like there was when he won the Indy 500 last year... Shame really.

I think he would get a similar level as the other Brits on both the BBC and Sky.

[stewie]

I think he would get a similar level as the other Brits on both the BBC and Sky.

I agree he would if he were actually partaking in a F1 season, what I meant yesterday is I don't think there would be much hype surrounding his transfer if he were, say, announce a move to F1 right now. The informed motorsport fan would know who he is, but I don't think that'd translate well to the general casual British F1 fan.

[Imperial]

I agree he would if he were actually partaking in a F1 season, what I meant yesterday is I don't think there would be much hype surrounding his transfer if he were, say, announce a move to F1 right now. The informed motorsport fan would know who he is, but I don't think that'd translate well to the general casual British F1 fan.

There would be if he was racing in F1 for a season but there wouldn't be if he announced he will race in F1...for a season? Huh?

Ha ha, you're explaining yourself really well here!!!

Are you saying his announcement would not garner many inches in the non-specialist press, but he would gradually become a name to even casual viewers?

Edited by Imperial, 24 May 2013 - 11:58.

[stewie]

Are you saying his announcement would not garner many inches in the non-specialist press, but he would gradually become a name to even casual viewers?

Yes, that's pretty much what I'm trying to say!