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Which WDC on the grid has the strongest team mate?


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Poll: Which WDC on the grid has the strongest team mate? (431 member(s) have cast votes)

Which WDC on the grid has the strongest team mate?

  1. Sebastian Vettel (56 votes [13.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.05%

  2. Fernando Alonso (24 votes [5.59%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.59%

  3. Jenson Button (5 votes [1.17%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.17%

  4. Kimi Raikkonen (14 votes [3.26%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.26%

  5. Lewis Hamilton (330 votes [76.92%])

    Percentage of vote: 76.92%

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#51 TheThirdTenor1

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 16:33

Lets not even start with Alonso,Massa can never be allowed to finish above him,company policy


I call BS!


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#52 Watkins74

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 16:37

That will make him stronger. Respect.


Also Kimi's team mate might not be the best one but they let them race each other.

Except the two times last year they told Grosjean to let Kimi through.

"Kimi is faster than you"

#53 pUs

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 16:40

In what universe? Romain hasn't been given the same updates/setup as Kimi. In Monaco (driver's track) Romain has driven around the problems related to the equipment available to him and consistently outpaced Kimi.


It's a matter of resources. Romain probably had the latest stuff on his car when the weekend begun, but he's crashed three times since then. How many extra sets of all new parts should they keep in stock just for poor Romain? Four? Five? :lol: Let us know.

#54 gillesthegenius

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 16:44

:rolleyes: Are we still going back to that rookie year comparison? Aside from a few great showings by Webber that were mostly ruined by car issues, they ended up fairly close even if Webber had a clear edge.

It's an amazing thought I know but maybe drivers can improve with experience?

Rosberg crashed a bit, but no more than Grosjean, and certain people on this board seem to believe that Grosjean has been beating Kimi (somehow).


Of course drivers do improve race craft. But I was talking about raw pace, in which department Mark seemed to have a clear advantage. Even allowing for inexperience 12-6 for Mark in qualy was pretty convincing.

#55 Taxi

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 16:45

Except the two times last year they told Grosjean to let Kimi through.

"Kimi is faster than you"

When the team had to push for Kimi to fight for the championship and RG was far behind. Hardly equal to Ferrari politics.




#56 TheThirdTenor1

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 16:53

When the team had to push for Kimi to fight for the championship and RG was far behind. Hardly equal to Ferrari politics.


The "Kimi is faster than you order" came as early as R4 in Bahrain.

The first time Massa let Alonso through in last years championship was at Monza, when Massa was clearly out of the running.


#57 bub

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 17:02

Of course drivers do improve race craft. But I was talking about raw pace, in which department Mark seemed to have a clear advantage. Even allowing for inexperience 12-6 for Mark in qualy was pretty convincing.


I think raw pace can improve. Grosjean and Hulk seem quicker now than in their rookie seasons. Pace also could decrease once you pass your prime. Also was qualy the the ultimate test of raw pace back then? Wasn't there refueling back then? What about fuel loads? Who had more fastest laps etc?

I do agree with you though, it is of course debatable.

#58 Seanspeed

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 17:02

The "Kimi is faster than you order" came as early as R4 in Bahrain.

The first time Massa let Alonso through in last years championship was at Monza, when Massa was clearly out of the running.

But 2002! Remember 2002!??!?!?!?

#59 gillesthegenius

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 17:04

1. 7 vs 4 points is not really a "slaughtering"

2. It's hard to see how much relevance a season that happened 7 years ago has on rating how good the drivers are currently.


1) I was talking about raw pace (qualy results).

2) IMO raw pace doesn't usually change much over a normal career.

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#60 gillesthegenius

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 17:08

I think raw pace can improve. Grosjean and Hulk seem quicker now than in their rookie seasons. Pace also could decrease once you pass your prime. Also was qualy the the ultimate test of raw pace back then? Wasn't there refueling back then? What about fuel loads? Who had more fastest laps etc?

I do agree with you though, it is of course debatable.


Of course it can improve and even reduce as you say. But my observation is that dramatic changes don't occur to raw pace, which is IMO directly co-related to the natural ability of a driver. And yes, the debatability of the OP was my point. :)

#61 Kingshark

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 17:24

This is how I rate them.

1. Nico Rosberg
2. Felipe Massa
3. Mark Webber
4. Sergio Perez
5. Romain Grosjean

#62 TheThirdTenor1

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 17:26

1) I was talking about raw pace (qualy results).

2) IMO raw pace doesn't usually change much over a normal career.


1) Thread title is not about raw pace.

2) It does.

#63 Kingshark

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 17:26

Of course drivers do improve race craft. But I was talking about raw pace, in which department Mark seemed to have a clear advantage. Even allowing for inexperience 12-6 for Mark in qualy was pretty convincing.

Back then Rosberg was a 20 year old rookie, and Webber was in the prime of his career, 29 years old. Even so, Rosberg out-performed him in at least 6 or 7 out of 18 races.

Today, Webber is a 36 year old man and way passed his prime, and Rosberg is 27, in the absolute peak of his career.

If Webber and Rosberg were teammates today, Rosberg would beat Webber convincingly IMO.

#64 revlec

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 17:28

It looks like a suggestive poll to prop Hamilton.


Not different to the "best driver ever" threads which pop up whenever ALO wins a race... :p
Every fan needs love  ;)

#65 rasul

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 17:34

2. It's hard to see how much relevance a season that happened 7 years ago has on rating how good the drivers are currently.

Well, Lewis's rating is still heavily influenced by the fact that he beat Alonso 6 years ago, also when he was a rookie. Why Rosberg's rating shouldn't be? It's only fair.

#66 TheThirdTenor1

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 17:38

Well, Lewis's rating is still heavily influenced by the fact that he beat Alonso 6 years ago, also when he was a rookie. Why Rosberg's rating shouldn't be? It's only fair.


Lewis has shown how strong he is since 2007. He is not rated highly for that single season only.

#67 Kingshark

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 17:49

Well, Lewis's rating is still heavily influenced by the fact that he beat Alonso 6 years ago, also when he was a rookie. Why Rosberg's rating shouldn't be? It's only fair.

Compare the # of rookie errors Rosberg made in 2006. Too many to count. Now how about Hamilton in 2007? Can't think of any other than maybe Nurburgring and China.

#68 Smile17

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 17:50

Rosberg better than Massa, Grosjean, Perez and Webber? Come one. Guess the fact that he's challenging Hammy says it all for some..



#69 jrg19

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 17:52

Certainly looks like Lewis is in for the toughest year, would be quite an achievement if he can come out on top in a new team.

Could even call it the drive of the season.

#70 gillesthegenius

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 17:55

1) Thread title is not about raw pace.

2) It does.


1) The OP mentions it though.

2) Let's just agree to disagree then.

#71 garoidb

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 18:00

Certainly looks like Lewis is in for the toughest year, would be quite an achievement if he can come out on top in a new team.

Could even call it the drive of the season.


Hardly. He definitely needs to establish himself as being a level better than Rosberg over the season, but that is the minimum expectation and would not be some heroic achievement.

#72 Seanspeed

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 18:03

Certainly looks like Lewis is in for the toughest year, would be quite an achievement if he can come out on top in a new team.

Could even call it the drive of the season.

Most people were expecting Lewis to beat Nico this year. This hyping up of Nico and using the 'new team' excuse is all just a bit of a reactive emotion to seeing Lewis not 'putting the smack down' like everybody was thinking he would.

Hell, I didn't think Nico was going to do this well head-to-head, either. Still early days, though. If Nico has a slump(which he is prone to), everybody will go back to talking about Lewis is the man and that its his team and whatnot. Hell, if Lewis gets ahead by Turn 1 tomorrow and wins convincingly, I can see people completely switching their opinion. F1 fans are fickle.

I'd like to see them over a couple seasons.

Edited by Seanspeed, 25 May 2013 - 18:05.


#73 gillesthegenius

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 18:03

Back then Rosberg was a 20 year old rookie, and Webber was in the prime of his career, 29 years old. Even so, Rosberg out-performed him in at least 6 or 7 out of 18 races.

Today, Webber is a 36 year old man and way passed his prime, and Rosberg is 27, in the absolute peak of his career.

If Webber and Rosberg were teammates today, Rosberg would beat Webber convincingly IMO.


12-6 is just too much of a drubbing to just put it down to inexperience IMO. And 36 isn't old enough for one to lose large chunks of his pace. And your last statement looks like nothing more than wishful thinking.

#74 Kingshark

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 18:09

12-6 is just too much of a drubbing to just put it down to inexperience IMO.

So you think that Nick Heidfeld is better than Kimi Raikkonen because he convincingly beat him in his rookie season?

And 36 isn't old enough for one to lose large chunks of his pace.

Yes is it, Michael Schumacher of 2005 certainly wasn't as good as he was in 1997-98. Alain Prost of 1991 definitely wasn't as good as he was in 1995-86 either. I could keep going.

And your last statement looks like nothing more than wishful thinking.

It's wishful thinking for me to believe that Rosberg would beat Webber in equal machinery? Nico is currently beating Lewis, and you seriously think that Mark is a better driver?

Edited by Kingshark, 25 May 2013 - 18:10.


#75 rasul

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 18:09

Lewis has shown how strong he is since 2007. He is not rated highly for that single season only.

I would have liked to agree with you, since I like Lewis a lot, but I can't. Most of Lewis' reputation comes from that 2007 season. Without that season, he would have been as doubted as Vettel is by some people, maybe even more. A rookie, who 'lucked out' into a top car, never proven himself in another car, etc.
Even when Lewis had a bad form, like in 2011, few doubted that he's a top driver because he beat a double WDC when he was a rookie. So yes, it still matters a lot.

Compare the # of rookie errors Rosberg made in 2006. Too many to count. Now how about Hamilton in 2007? Can't think of any other than maybe Nurburgring and China.

I agree. But I'm not talking about rookie errors. Rookie errors are excusable, as drivers' race craft improves over the years, resulting in less mistakes.

#76 P123

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 18:18

I think the vote is based on current form. You'd have to be fairly dim not to rate a guy who has just taken his 3rd pole in a row and is currently outpacing a teammate on a more consistant basis than any other teammate of his (including two WDCs) has yet managed to do. So far, at least, Rosberg looks like Hamilton's strongest challenge, at least on pure raw pace.

Sure, some may not wish to rate Rosberg (which is silly given his dominance over MS spanning 3 years), but that tends to come from the faction who can't bring themselves to rate Hamilton to begin with.

Edited by P123, 25 May 2013 - 18:19.


#77 garoidb

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 18:33

I would have liked to agree with you, since I like Lewis a lot, but I can't. Most of Lewis' reputation comes from that 2007 season. Without that season, he would have been as doubted as Vettel is by some people, maybe even more. A rookie, who 'lucked out' into a top car, never proven himself in another car, etc.
Even when Lewis had a bad form, like in 2011, few doubted that he's a top driver because he beat a double WDC when he was a rookie. So yes, it still matters a lot.


Yes, I think it is still the foundation for Lewis's standing, together with having achieved a WDC (but Jenson, among others, has one of those too). Since he is not winning WDCs, it is important for Lewis to prevail against his team-mates every year to maintain this reputation. None of them have had the reputation that Alonso had (and still has), so Lewis is expected to beat them. Otherwise, what is all the fuss about?

#78 bub

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 18:36

I would have liked to agree with you, since I like Lewis a lot, but I can't. Most of Lewis' reputation comes from that 2007 season. Without that season, he would have been as doubted as Vettel is by some people, maybe even more. A rookie, who 'lucked out' into a top car, never proven himself in another car, etc.
Even when Lewis had a bad form, like in 2011, few doubted that he's a top driver because he beat a double WDC when he was a rookie. So yes, it still matters a lot.


Totally disagree. A driver wouldn't be highly rated, especially by knowledgeable people, based off only his first season if he hadn't reinforced that in the 5 seasons since. He won the WDC the next year, drove very well and comfortably beat his teammate the next year. Drove very well and beat his experienced WDC teammate the year after that. Had a bunch of costly mistakes but still showed great talent the next year and then was arguably the (joint) best driver last year, once again beating his WDC teammate. Mercedes wouldn't have signed him at great cost based off a single season 5 years ago. McLaren wouldn't have made him a big offer if they didn't know how good he is at present. So of course Hamilton has shown how strong he is since 2007. You say Vettel is doubted but almost everybody puts him at least top 3. If a driver isn't performing well he will not remain highly rated. Look at Massa for example. Hamilton is still highly rated because he's still performing well.

Edited by bub, 25 May 2013 - 18:49.


#79 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 18:38

Clearly Hamilton has. Rosberg is the best second driver out there, he finally gets to show it.

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#80 BlackCat

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 18:39

Webber
Rosberg
Perez
Grosjean
some empty places
Massa

#81 P123

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 18:41

Webber
Rosberg
Perez
Grosjean
some empty places
Massa


Grosjean better than Massa? On current form I don't see that being the case.

#82 kenkip

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 18:47

I call BS!

Haha,would love to hear your reasons mate!

#83 gillesthegenius

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 18:50

So you think that Nick Heidfeld is better than Kimi Raikkonen because he convincingly beat him in his rookie season?

Yes is it, Michael Schumacher of 2005 certainly wasn't as good as he was in 1997-98. Alain Prost of 1991 definitely wasn't as good as he was in 1995-86 either. I could keep going.

It's wishful thinking for me to believe that Rosberg would beat Webber in equal machinery? Nico is currently beating Lewis, and you seriously think that Mark is a better driver?


1) You are talking about a man who managed to convincingly outpace a driver - Robert Kubica - who is considered to be as good as Kimi over the course of a full season. Besides the 10-7 margin isn't as convincing as you claim to be. A one race swing would have made it 9-8, it was that close between Kimi and Nick and it was a gap that could be put away as being down to the difference in experience as opposed to the one between Webber and Rosberg.

2) I don't see any basis to your claim about Schumi, while Prost intentionally became more race oriented with his approach after he saw how the slower Lauda beat him to the title in 84.

3) What makes you think that Mark wouldn't be doing the same to Lewis?

#84 rasul

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 18:56

Totally disagree. A driver wouldn't be highly rated, especially by knowledgeable people, based off only his first season if he hadn't reinforced that in the 5 seasons since. He won the WDC the next year, drove very well and comfortably beat his teammate the next year. Drove very well and beat his experienced WDC teammate the year after that. Had a bunch of costly mistakes but still showed great talent the next year and then was arguably the (joint)driver best driver last year, once again beating his WDC teammate. Mercedes wouldn't have signed him at great cost based off a single season 5 years ago. McLaren wouldn't have made him a big offer if they didn't know how good he is at present. So of course Hamilton has shown how strong he is since 2007. You say Vettel is doubted but almost everybody puts him at least top 3. If a driver isn't performing well he will not remain highly rated. Look at Masa for example. Hamilton is still highly rated because he's still performing well.

My response is pretty much this:

Yes, I think it is still the foundation for Lewis's standing, together with having achieved a WDC (but Jenson, among others, has one of those too). Since he is not winning WDCs, it is important for Lewis to prevail against his team-mates every year to maintain this reputation. None of them have had the reputation that Alonso had (and still has), so Lewis is expected to beat them. Otherwise, what is all the fuss about?


Yes, Lewis has been performing really well(well, mostly) after 2007 season, but if he didn't have that 2007 season with Alonso, he wouldn't have been rated anywhere as highly as he is. As he hasn't been a genuine title contender for years, his standing depends a lot on how well he performs against his teammates. Regarding Vettel: of course he's considered a Top3 driver--he's the triple WDC, after all--but the thing is, in all honesty, Vettel should be rated far more highly than that. If Vettel had the "2007 season" on his resume, having beaten Alonso, he would be unquestionably regarded as the very best by everyone. Now people still have the excuse of saying that he's never been teamed with a WDC teammate/that it's the car, even though every single WDC of the current grid won their titles in a top car. So yes, the 2007 season is still the foundation for Lewis's standing. Again, don't get me wrong--Lewis is my favorite driver out of the current drivers, and I don't like Alonso much--but I have to admit that Alonso's reputation is the foundation for Lewis's.

Edited by rasul, 25 May 2013 - 18:57.


#85 garoidb

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 19:01

If Vettel had the "2007 season" on his resume, having beaten Alonso, he would be unquestionably regarded as the very best by everyone.


Very good point. I really rate Vettel anyway, but it has been a slow realisation rather than a spectacular arrival.

#86 rasul

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 19:04

Very good point. I really rate Vettel anyway, but it has been a slow realisation rather than a spectacular arrival.

Same here. I didn't rate him much for the first few years, thinking he was inferior to Lewis and Alonso. Actually, I hated him. :smoking:

#87 Kingshark

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 19:06

1) You are talking about a man who managed to convincingly outpace a driver - Robert Kubica - who is considered to be as good as Kimi over the course of a full season. Besides the 10-7 margin isn't as convincing as you claim to be. A one race swing would have made it 9-8, it was that close between Kimi and Nick and it was a gap that could be put away as being down to the difference in experience as opposed to the one between Webber and Rosberg.

Well, in his second season Raikkonen was thoroughly out-performed by Coulthard, 24 points against 41; and no, DC was not a great driver. He spend 3 consecutive years (1998-2000) in championship winning machinery, yet was never even a serious WDC contended.

Bottom line is, you can't judge Rosberg by what he did in 2006. He's became a much better and more complete driver since.

Vettel was also about as fast as Luizzi in 2007, you don't see me using this useless statistic as an argument.

3) What makes you think that Mark wouldn't be doing the same to Lewis?

Do you believe Webber is a better driver than Hamilton?

Let me ask you straight-up.

#88 bub

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 19:27

My response is pretty much this:


Yes, Lewis has been performing really well(well, mostly) after 2007 season, but if he didn't have that 2007 season with Alonso, he wouldn't have been rated anywhere as highly as he is. As he hasn't been a genuine title contender for years, his standing depends a lot on how well he performs against his teammates. Regarding Vettel: of course he's considered a Top3 driver--he's the triple WDC, after all--but the thing is, in all honesty, Vettel should be rated far more highly than that. If Vettel had the "2007 season" on his resume, having beaten Alonso, he would be unquestionably regarded as the very best by everyone. Now people still have the excuse of saying that he's never been teamed with a WDC teammate/that it's the car, even though every single WDC of the current grid won their titles in a top car. So yes, the 2007 season is still the foundation for Lewis's standing. Again, don't get me wrong--Lewis is my favorite driver out of the current drivers, and I don't like Alonso much--but I have to admit that Alonso's reputation is the foundation for Lewis's.


Yes that is the foundation of his reputation as it was how it began but the post I quoted and responded to was you saying you couldn't agree with this:


Lewis has shown how strong he is since 2007. He is not rated highly for that single season only.


Which is very much true/correct imo.

Yes Hamilton's standing depends on how well he performs against his teammates but so does driver's. Doesn't matter how many titles you win/title fights you're in, if you start losing to teammates people will say it was the car, not the driver that won those championships.
Every driver's reputation has some kind of foundation (you could say Vettel's foundation is Newey or Alonso's is Renault etc for example) but they have to then reinforce their reputation.
As for Vettel should be rated far more highly than he is I wouldn't necessarily agree. He only has 1 more WDC than Alonso and hasn't proven himself in different teams and against different teammates so I think at least top 3/arguably no.1 is fair because you can't say he's definitely better than Alonso/Hamilton/Kimi or vice versa unless they compete in the same car.

Edited by bub, 25 May 2013 - 19:28.


#89 TheThirdTenor1

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 19:30

I would have liked to agree with you, since I like Lewis a lot, but I can't. Most of Lewis' reputation comes from that 2007 season. Without that season, he would have been as doubted as Vettel is by some people, maybe even more. A rookie, who 'lucked out' into a top car, never proven himself in another car, etc.
Even when Lewis had a bad form, like in 2011, few doubted that he's a top driver because he beat a double WDC when he was a rookie. So yes, it still matters a lot.


There will always be doubters no matter who the driver is or how good he is.


#90 rasul

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 19:37

Yes that is the foundation of his reputation as it was how it began but the post I quoted and responded to was you saying you couldn't agree with this:


Lewis has shown how strong he is since 2007. He is not rated highly for that single season only.

You just misunderstood me, then. Without the 2007 season he would be still rated highly, as every WDC. But not as highly. Simple as that.
2007 is the season that build the hype around Lewis--a well-deserved hype, of course, as not every day a rookie beats a highly rated double WDC--but nevertheless.

There will always be doubters no matter who the driver is or how good he is.

True.

Edited by rasul, 25 May 2013 - 19:40.


#91 gillesthegenius

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 19:43

Well, in his second season Raikkonen was thoroughly out-performed by Coulthard, 24 points against 41; and no, DC was not a great driver. He spend 3 consecutive years (1998-2000) in championship winning machinery, yet was never even a serious WDC contended.


I'm talking about raw pace. And didn't Kimi outpace Coulthard convincingly (11-5) that year?

Bottom line is, you can't judge Rosberg by what he did in 2006. He's became a much better and more complete driver since.


Of course, he has become more complete with experience. But I'm talking about raw pace, which is primarily talent dependent IMO.

Vettel was also about as fast as Luizzi in 2007, you don't see me using this useless statistic as an argument.


Jumping into a totally unknown car mid season is completely different from driving it from pre season.

Do you believe Webber is a better driver than Hamilton?


No I don't. I don't believe that Nico is better than Hamilton either. But do you?

And If you ask me whether I believe that Mark has the pace to push Hamilton like Nico is doing? Then my answer would be yes.

Edited by gillesthegenius, 25 May 2013 - 19:46.


#92 ardbeg

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 19:44

Rosberg is very good, I hope he will get the chance to prove it one day. But it might very well be Button that has the strongest partner. Will be interesting to see Perez the second half of the season.

#93 bub

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 20:07

Rosberg is very good, I hope he will get the chance to prove it one day. But it might very well be Button that has the strongest partner. Will be interesting to see Perez the second half of the season.


I'd probably put Perez at the bottom of the pile at the moment but with the potential to be better than all of them.

#94 TheThirdTenor1

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 20:19

@ gillesthegenius

Perhaps you could explain the following to me.

In 1996 Damon Hill showed himself to have better raw pace than Jacques Villeneuve. The score in qualifying was 13-3 i believe.

The following year, in 1997, Jacques Villeneuve showed himself to have better raw pace than Heinz Harald Frentzen. The score in qualifying was something like 14-3.

2 years later, in 1999, Heinz Harald Frentzen showed himself to have better raw pace than Damon Hill. The score in qualifying was something like 14-2.

Now if raw pace doesn't change much over time, how can something like this happen?

#95 arttidesco

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 20:26

On today's evidence Vettel, because it looks like Mark backed off his last attempt in Q3 thus helping Seb to maximum effect for tomorrow's race. All the other team mates are either not fast enough or in Rosbergs case likely to take points of the higher placed team mate.

#96 Menace

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 20:31

Obviously Hamilton since Rosberg is beating him...

#97 SpaMaster

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 20:35

Well, in his second season Raikkonen was thoroughly out-performed by Coulthard, 24 points against 41; and no, DC was not a great driver. He spend 3 consecutive years (1998-2000) in championship winning machinery, yet was never even a serious WDC contended.

Well, that's what happens when you just look at the points from a season. Go watch that season properly. Raikkonen had lot more mechanical failures. Saying "thoroughly outperformed" is just total baloney. Raikkonen was quite competitive and held himself up quite well.


#98 Wander

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 20:36

@ gillesthegenius

Perhaps you could explain the following to me.

In 1996 Damon Hill showed himself to have better raw pace than Jacques Villeneuve. The score in qualifying was 13-3 i believe.

The following year, in 1997, Jacques Villeneuve showed himself to have better raw pace than Heinz Harald Frentzen. The score in qualifying was something like 14-3.

2 years later, in 1999, Heinz Harald Frentzen showed himself to have better raw pace than Damon Hill. The score in qualifying was something like 14-2.

Now if raw pace doesn't change much over time, how can something like this happen?


I agree with you, but in that case it's been well documented that Damon hated the grooved tyres. He never got comfortable with them. Might have had to do with his age, too, of course, but the grooved tyres did affect the careers of several people.

E: oh and regarding Räikkönen vs. Coulthard in 2002.
Quali:
Räikkönen 11-6 Coulthard
Races both drivers finished:
Räikkönen 2-1 Coulthard

'Nuff said.

E2: There's more!
Races finished:
Räikkönen 6
Coulthard 13
points per races finished:
Räikkönen 4
Coulthard 3.2

Point is, there is really no good argument for saying Coulthard "thoroughly outperformed" Räikkönen. And it's also hard to outscore your team mate when you experience twice as many engine breakdowns.

Edited by Wander, 25 May 2013 - 20:52.


#99 rasul

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 20:43

@ gillesthegenius

Perhaps you could explain the following to me.

In 1996 Damon Hill showed himself to have better raw pace than Jacques Villeneuve. The score in qualifying was 13-3 i believe.

The following year, in 1997, Jacques Villeneuve showed himself to have better raw pace than Heinz Harald Frentzen. The score in qualifying was something like 14-3.

2 years later, in 1999, Heinz Harald Frentzen showed himself to have better raw pace than Damon Hill. The score in qualifying was something like 14-2.

Now if raw pace doesn't change much over time, how can something like this happen?


You're forgetting that Damon was struggling a lot with the four-grooved tyres that were introduced that year. And he was around 40, so not really surprising that he lost his pace, while Frentzen was considerably younger.

Edit: Wander already pointed it out, it seems.

Edited by rasul, 25 May 2013 - 20:45.


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#100 redreni

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 21:01

Lewis was able to outqualify and outrace Rosberg in his first race with the team.


As long as by "outrace" you mean "keep going (as opposed to breaking down)" then I'd agree. Shortly after Rosberg broke down, you may recall Hamilton flatsptted a tyre and had to make an unscheduled extra pitstop. There's very little doubt who would have finished ahead if both had kept going.

Realistically Rosberg is most unfortunate that his superiority so far this season is not reflected on the scoreboard due to DNFs and team orders.