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Which WDC on the grid has the strongest team mate?


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Poll: Which WDC on the grid has the strongest team mate? (431 member(s) have cast votes)

Which WDC on the grid has the strongest team mate?

  1. Sebastian Vettel (56 votes [13.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.05%

  2. Fernando Alonso (24 votes [5.59%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.59%

  3. Jenson Button (5 votes [1.17%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.17%

  4. Kimi Raikkonen (14 votes [3.26%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.26%

  5. Lewis Hamilton (330 votes [76.92%])

    Percentage of vote: 76.92%

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#101 Skinnyguy

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 21:24

On current form:

Rosberg, he matches Lewis for every inch. I always suspected he was top, he´s on the way to confirm it.
Perez, he´s fast and annoying teammate, isn´t he?
Webber, he´s lost it, he´s no more the promising young gun he once was, we know his limits fairly well. But he can still produce a decent rate of races where he´s close to Seb.
Massa and Romain are equal, they enjoy some really occasional hay days when they´re capable of outperforming their teammate but suck really badly over long periods.

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#102 Zoetrope

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 21:35

It is Lewis 3-3 Rosberg in Qualy this year so far. Last year after Monaco it was Webber 4-2 Vettel. And we know how the season has ended, right?

Just like Vettel required some time to adjust himself to changing conditions of new regulations, I am sure Lewis will also get up to speed at some point in totally new team.

I also believe it is Rosberg, who is the toughest of WDC's teammates, but I still don't think it is that great difference as some might suggest. Webber isn't that far behind. Perez might turn into top driver (I am still not convinced of him), and Grosjean is also very fast, just had awful start to the season.

#103 Skinnyguy

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 22:01

Point is, there is really no good argument for saying Coulthard "thoroughly outperformed" Räikkönen. And it's also hard to outscore your team mate when you experience twice as many engine breakdowns.


That´s a lost battle. Kids will always be kids and they´ll talk about stuff they don´t know about.

Räikkönen ended 6 out of 17 races that season, without having made a single race ending mistake himself. In four of them he scored a podium, in the other two he missed it by a small margin. That was achieved in what was the -remotely distant from pace setter- 3rd fastest car in that season.

#104 bourbon

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 22:05

Negative impact of teammate on track antics (cooperation, etc): (having it hardest at the top)

Vettel
Button
Kimi
Hamilton
Alonso

Qualifying skill / team intervention: (having it hardest at the top)

Hamilton
Vettel
Kimi
Button
Alonso



Racing skill/team intervention: (having it hardest on top)

Button
Vettel
Hamilton
Kimi
Alonso

Edited by bourbon, 25 May 2013 - 22:16.


#105 Kingshark

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 22:11

I'd probably put Perez at the bottom of the pile at the moment but with the potential to be better than all of them.

Perez is worse than Grosjean? Strongly disagree.

1. Rosberg
2. Massa
3. Webber
4. Perez
5. Grosjean

Hamilton has the strongest teammate, followed by Alonso, then Vettel, then Button, and finally Raikkonen.

Edited by Kingshark, 25 May 2013 - 22:11.


#106 rasul

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 22:18

I think it's:
1. Rosberg/Webber
2. Massa. (Though he's too kind and manageable to be any real threat to Alonso and put some real pressure on him. Actually, I think it would do Alonso good to get a hungry, competitive teammate. Such a teammate would push him more than Massa.)
3. Perez/Grosjean

Edited by rasul, 25 May 2013 - 22:19.


#107 EthanM

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 22:19

Perez is worse than Grosjean? Strongly disagree.

1. Rosberg
2. Massa
3. Webber
4. Perez
5. Grosjean

Hamilton has the strongest teammate, followed by Alonso, then Vettel, then Button, and finally Raikkonen.



I loled pretty hard at Massa being super strong teammate. Since they 'be been temmates Massa has scored LESS than 50% of Alonso's WDC points (859 for Alonso vs 429 for Massa). The only way that makes a "strong" teammate is in a fanboy's wet dreams. Massa has been pity-full for like 2 years and 10 months and decent for 4 months.

#108 TheThirdTenor1

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 22:19

You're forgetting that Damon was struggling a lot with the four-grooved tyres that were introduced that year. And he was around 40, so not really surprising that he lost his pace, while Frentzen was considerably younger.

Edit: Wander already pointed it out, it seems.


you are completely correct Rasul. The point of my post was to illustrate to gillesthegenius that raw pace can significantly change from year to year and can be dependent on a number of factors and circumstances at the time (in this case, age and regulations regarding the tyres).

#109 mattferg

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 22:34

It would have been nice to have such polls in 2012 or 2011 too in order to compare. Most people didn't even pay attention to Rosberg when Schumacher was his teammate but well better late than never (I voted "Hamilton" obviously)...


True, if this was taken after Monaco 2012 qualifying (but with people at their 2013 teams) Vettel would've won the poll, followed by Lewis, then Raikonnen, then Button, with Alonso dead last.

#110 mattferg

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 22:37

There is only one driver in F1 who has had strong team mates since entering F1. This is Lewis Hamilton.


Err, Heikki Kovalienen?

#111 garoidb

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 22:39

I loled pretty hard at Massa being super strong teammate. Since they 'be been temmates Massa has scored LESS than 50% of Alonso's WDC points (859 for Alonso vs 429 for Massa). The only way that makes a "strong" teammate is in a fanboy's wet dreams. Massa has been pity-full for like 2 years and 10 months and decent for 4 months.


Rosberg has scored less than 50% of the points scored by Hamilton in their time as team-mates at Mercedes.

Grosjean has also scored less than 50% of the points scored by Kimi since being paired at Lotus.

#112 EthanM

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 22:43

Rosberg has scored less than 50% of the points scored by Hamilton in their time as team-mates at Mercedes.

Grosjean has also scored less than 50% of the points scored by Kimi since being paired at Lotus.


Rosberg and Hamilton have been teammates for 5 races, 2 of which Rosberg DNFed in. In statistical terms the Alonso/Massa sample of 63 races is a lot bigger consequently safer cause the outliers, like DNFs, are smoothed out.

#113 mattferg

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 22:45

Rosberg has scored less than 50% of the points scored by Hamilton in their time as team-mates at Mercedes.

Grosjean has also scored less than 50% of the points scored by Kimi since being paired at Lotus.


Exxxccept that you'd know that 5 races is too small a sample space, compared to 25 for Kimi and over 60 for Alonso. That means the Kimi statistic is 5x more accurate and the Alonso one 20x. Thus proving either Massa is really bad or the Rosberg statistic is inaccurate. You choose.

#114 Seanspeed

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 22:50

you are completely correct Rasul. The point of my post was to illustrate to gillesthegenius that raw pace can significantly change from year to year and can be dependent on a number of factors and circumstances at the time (in this case, age and regulations regarding the tyres).

What I think it mainly illustrates is that drivers that aren't absolutely top-tier aren't as consistently quick. This is what seperates the great from the good. Guys like Alonso and Lewis and Vettel are beatable over shorter periods of time, but they will usually end up on top when all is said and done.

#115 rasul

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 22:51

you are completely correct Rasul. The point of my post was to illustrate to gillesthegenius that raw pace can significantly change from year to year and can be dependent on a number of factors and circumstances at the time (in this case, age and regulations regarding the tyres).


But it goes both ways, too. Yes, a driver's raw pace might change with time for the better or for the worse because of such things like regulations and form, but it doesn't change the fact that Rosberg got beaten by Webber. They were teammates who were driving the same car, similar to Alonso&Hamilton and Vettel&Webber. One might argue that Webber and Hamilton were more competitive when we had Bridgestones while Rosberg works with Pirellis better, but the fact remains that in the same F1 car--and there is no better point of comparison--Rosberg wasn't as good as Webber. Mark beat him, fair and square. Yes, Rosberg was a rookie, but if it's the reason for not giving Webber the credit for beating him, then what does it say about Alonso who failed to beat his rookie? Let's not make such excuses for Nico.

#116 garoidb

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 22:52

Rosberg and Hamilton have been teammates for 5 races, 2 of which Rosberg DNFed in. In statistical terms the Alonso/Massa sample of 63 races is a lot bigger consequently safer cause the outliers, like DNFs, are smoothed out.


My point is that these kinds of disparities between team-mates are not that unusual. Leaving that aside, the question of the thread is asked in the present tense. Massa is much stronger now than a year ago, so the 63 races is not the right frame of reference.

#117 Seanspeed

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 22:54

Rosberg has scored less than 50% of the points scored by Hamilton in their time as team-mates at Mercedes.

Its a bit unfortunate also, that Rosberg's best form over Lewis happened to occur when the Mercedes weren't vying for many points. This makes a difference.

There was a similar situation with Button and Barrichello in 2009. They were actually fairly equal over the whole season, but Jenson was beating Barrichello when the car was dominant, accruing a ton of points at the time. When Barrichello finally started matching and beating Button, Mclaren, Ferrari and Red Bull had all made huge strides in development and this form over Button didn't really translate to an equal points haul.

#118 JimiKart

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 22:57

Where's the rest of the drivers?

drivers with the toughest team mate;

Massa
Hamilton
Vettel

#119 garoidb

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 23:00

Its a bit unfortunate also, that Rosberg's best form over Lewis happened to occur when the Mercedes weren't vying for many points. This makes a difference.

There was a similar situation with Button and Barrichello in 2009. They were actually fairly equal over the whole season, but Jenson was beating Barrichello when the car was dominant, accruing a ton of points at the time. When Barrichello finally started matching and beating Button, Mclaren, Ferrari and Red Bull had all made huge strides in development and this form over Button didn't really translate to an equal points haul.


I wasn't having a go at Rosberg. Someone used this statistic to damn Massa, so I just pointed out that similar statistics could be quoted for the team-mates of other popular drivers. It did occur to me that the points system has this effect of accentuating the differences between team-mates when the team has more competitive interludes. It is also true that very little attention is paid when the teams and drivers are not towards the front of the grid. For example, if Nico had pipped Lewis to 7th place on the grid, there would be much less interest.

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#120 TheThirdTenor1

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 23:02

But it goes both ways, too. Yes, a driver's raw pace might change with time for the better or for the worse because of such things like regulations and form, but it doesn't change the fact that Rosberg got beaten by Webber. They were teammates who were driving the same car, similar to Alonso&Hamilton and Vettel&Webber. One might argue that Webber and Hamilton were more competitive when we had Bridgestones while Rosberg works with Pirellis better, but the fact remains that in the same F1 car--and there is no better point of comparison--Rosberg wasn't as good as Webber. Mark beat him, fair and square. Yes, Rosberg was a rookie, but if it's the reason for not giving Webber the credit for beating him, then what does it say about Alonso who failed to beat his rookie? Let's not make such excuses for Nico.


Don't disagree with any of that. But i think i've made my points that raw pace can change, especially over a 7 year time period.

#121 EthanM

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 23:02

My point is that these kinds of disparities between team-mates are not that unusual. Leaving that aside, the question of the thread is asked in the present tense. Massa is much stronger now than a year ago, so the 63 races is not the right frame of reference.


there is no "right now" ... Massa hasn't finished a race ahead of Alonso since like China 2011 excluding DNFs. There is no metric that makes him a strong teammate except the fact he outqualified Alonso 3-4 times. Big deal. In statistical terms the order is Webber - Grosgean and Massa with Rosberg and Perez being too small samples to call. In qualitative terms it's Rosberg-Webber-Perez-Grosjean-Massa. There is no metric that puts Massa anywhere beyond bottom except blind fanboyism.

#122 garoidb

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 23:15

there is no "right now" ... Massa hasn't finished a race ahead of Alonso since like China 2011 excluding DNFs. There is no metric that makes him a strong teammate except the fact he outqualified Alonso 3-4 times. Big deal. In statistical terms the order is Webber - Grosgean and Massa with Rosberg and Perez being too small samples to call. In qualitative terms it's Rosberg-Webber-Perez-Grosjean-Massa. There is no metric that puts Massa anywhere beyond bottom except blind fanboyism.


It seemed to be at the time.

If you have not noticed an upswing in Massa's performance starting in the later stages of the 2012 season, then I cannot help you. I never said he was better than, or regularly beating, Alonso. He is now quite close to him in qualifying and, more recently, delivering decent races. His record over his full career, and over the last half season, is strong. To my mind, current form and lifetime achievement are the most natural pointers to consider. Why would anyone worry about intermediate time spans of arbitrary duration?

#123 EthanM

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 23:28

It seemed to be at the time.

If you have not noticed an upswing in Massa's performance starting in the later stages of the 2012 season, then I cannot help you. I never said he was better than, or regularly beating, Alonso. He is now quite close to him in qualifying and, more recently, delivering decent races. His record over his full career, and over the last half season, is strong. To my mind, current form and lifetime achievement are the most natural pointers to consider. Why would anyone worry about intermediate time spans of arbitrary duration?


periods spent driving the same car for the same team aren't arbitrary when you are trying to compare ... teammates. When you consider finishing half a minute behind your teammate an "upswing" then you should admit your standards are pretty low.

#124 Kingshark

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 23:30

Pff, Massa is so underrated on this thread. He's definitely better than Grosjean and Perez, and on par with Webber. Only Rosberg is better.

#125 trogggy

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 23:30

Its a bit unfortunate also, that Rosberg's best form over Lewis happened to occur when the Mercedes weren't vying for many points. This makes a difference.

There was a similar situation with Button and Barrichello in 2009. They were actually fairly equal over the whole season, but Jenson was beating Barrichello when the car was dominant, accruing a ton of points at the time. When Barrichello finally started matching and beating Button, Mclaren, Ferrari and Red Bull had all made huge strides in development and this form over Button didn't really translate to an equal points haul.

The head-to-head was 12 - 5.
How, in any analysis, can that be 'fairly equal'?

#126 fabr68

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 23:40

Pff, Massa is so underrated on this thread. He's definitely better than Grosjean and Perez, and on par with Webber. Only Rosberg is better.


Agreed. Massa outqualified Alonso several races in a row. Webber on the other hand "multi 21"

#127 DaddyCool

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 23:52

Massa underrated? Apart from like 8-10 decent races/qualys what has he exactly achieved in the last 3(+) years?

Rosberg has beaten Schumacher over the course of 3 years, and is matching Hamilton at the moment. Webber was also matching Vettel in 2010 and scored quite a few wins since then.

#128 Briz

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 00:08

I disagree as well... at least it doesn't sound plausible to me. Qualifying doesn't seem to be Alonso's main strength or priority last few years and still Massa has such a poor record vs him, in the races obviously it's even worse. Either Alonso has improved a lot since 2007 in terms of raw speed (possible of course) or Massa has lost some of his after 2009 accident and/or maybe he can't handle the Pirellis (2010 wasn't as bad as 2011-2012). It's all very subjective indeed, but in my view Massa doesn't have as many strong weekends as Webber.

Edited by Briz, 26 May 2013 - 00:08.


#129 bourbon

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 00:30

there is no "right now" ... Massa hasn't finished a race ahead of Alonso since like China 2011 excluding DNFs. There is no metric that makes him a strong teammate except the fact he outqualified Alonso 3-4 times. Big deal. In statistical terms the order is Webber - Grosgean and Massa with Rosberg and Perez being too small samples to call. In qualitative terms it's Rosberg-Webber-Perez-Grosjean-Massa. There is no metric that puts Massa anywhere beyond bottom except blind fanboyism.


However, his being the weakest is qualified because at times he is restrained by Ferrari from performing at his best.

#130 Kingshark

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 00:40

However, his being the weakest is qualified because at times he is restrained by Ferrari from performing at his best.

Ferrari didn't build Massa's Ferrari 50 kg heavier than Alonso's. Take your pathetic conspiracy theories somewhere else.

#131 Jimisgod

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 00:42

Rosberg has scored less than 50% of the points scored by Hamilton in their time as team-mates at Mercedes.

Grosjean has also scored less than 50% of the points scored by Kimi since being paired at Lotus.


:rotfl: :rolleyes: 5 races, of which Rosberg suffered two DNFs that were not his fault.

Surely you realize to pitfalls of not recognizing reliability after Hamilton's 2012.

#132 paulogman

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 01:47

rosberg is really showing to be the strongest,
or atleast the team mate with the most equal treatment in the team

#133 gillesthegenius

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 02:02

@ gillesthegenius

Perhaps you could explain the following to me.

In 1996 Damon Hill showed himself to have better raw pace than Jacques Villeneuve. The score in qualifying was 13-3 i believe.

The following year, in 1997, Jacques Villeneuve showed himself to have better raw pace than Heinz Harald Frentzen. The score in qualifying was something like 14-3.

2 years later, in 1999, Heinz Harald Frentzen showed himself to have better raw pace than Damon Hill. The score in qualifying was something like 14-2.

Now if raw pace doesn't change much over time, how can something like this happen?


If I was claiming the fact that Webber beat Rosberg and Rosberg matched Hamilton was proof for Webber being better than Hamilton, then your argument is correct. I think it was proved a couple of years a ago in a fun thread how stupid it can be.

But by raw pace, I'm only talking about potential. And Webber has shown that he can dominate Rosberg, who has proven to be very fast over the years. It's not proof that Webber is way faster than Rosberg. It's just an indication that Webber is atleast in the same league as Rosberg in terms of raw pace. And in such a scenario where two drivers are in the same league, it finally comes down to a a matter of personal opinion when a question about their ability arises.

And remember, I only said that the OP's opinion is debatable - not completely false - based on the info I brought to the table. Most of these things, we can keep arguing over and over again. But it finally comes down to a matter opinion and my opinion is that Webber is faster than Rosberg. I have no solid proof for that, it's not a baseless opinion either.

Besides, your argument can easily be used to refute any claim that Alonso is actually faster than Massa. But we all know the truth about how Alonso has beaten Massa in a head to head battle just like how Webber beat Rosberg in a head to head battle.

#134 MP422

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 04:24

I would have liked to agree with you, since I like Lewis a lot, but I can't. Most of Lewis' reputation comes from that 2007 season. Without that season, he would have been as doubted as Vettel is by some people, maybe even more. A rookie, who 'lucked out' into a top car, never proven himself in another car, etc.
Even when Lewis had a bad form, like in 2011, few doubted that he's a top driver because he beat a double WDC when he was a rookie. So yes, it still matters a lot.


I agree. But I'm not talking about rookie errors. Rookie errors are excusable, as drivers' race craft improves over the years, resulting in less mistakes.



You are high, There is no lucking out going 9 straight podiums. He earned the chance in a top car. We didn't see Ferrari putting Bianchi in their team as a rookie... RBR didn't even do the same with Vettel. He backed that season up with a WDC.

#135 SpaMaster

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 06:12

Perez is worse than Grosjean? Strongly disagree.

1. Rosberg
2. Massa
3. Webber
4. Perez
5. Grosjean

Hamilton has the strongest teammate, followed by Alonso, then Vettel, then Button, and finally Raikkonen.

You should have just stopped with the first sentence. But you got carried away and lost all credibility of your post stating Massa as second best and better than Webber. Massa does not figure in any conversation of being the toughest teammate these days.

Edited by SpaMaster, 26 May 2013 - 06:12.


#136 SPBHM

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 06:39

I always rated Hamilton really high, so at the moment you can't deny, Nico Rosberg is that good... not that anyone should have any doubts about it after what he did against Schumacher, and how good he was at time driving for Williams.

#137 Wlleiotl

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 07:37

based on who is the best driver:

webber
massa
rosberg
grosjean
perez

based on difference between number one and number two drivers:

rosberg
perez
webber
grosjean
massa

#138 garoidb

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 07:53

periods spent driving the same car for the same team aren't arbitrary when you are trying to compare ... teammates. When you consider finishing half a minute behind your teammate an "upswing" then you should admit your standards are pretty low.


We are not trying to compare team-mates; we are comparing Massa, Webber, Rosberg, Perez and Grosjean. Why should 2010, say, be more significant than 2008? Both are periods of time now in the past. They tell us something but not everything. It is more natural to either (i) take all the evidence accumulated over different time periods into account or (ii) to consider a snapshot of the present situation which, after all, incorporates abilities developed throughout previous years.

#139 rasul

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 07:53

You are high, There is no lucking out going 9 straight podiums. He earned the chance in a top car. We didn't see Ferrari putting Bianchi in their team as a rookie... RBR didn't even do the same with Vettel. He backed that season up with a WDC.

That wasn't the point I was making, so no, thank you, but I'm not high. You are correct; the fact that neither Ferrari nor RBR are putting rookies in their cars shows exactly why some would consider that Lewis "lucked out" into a top car. It doesn't mean he didn't prove that he deserved the seat later. He did. But even Vettel "earned" that RBR seat more, proving himself in a midfield car first. So yes, in many ways Lewis had the easiest path to success compared to Alonso and Vettel. It's not his fault, of course, but he indeed was very fortunate McLaren gave him that chance. It's not every day we see a rookie in a top team. It doesn't make him a lesser driver and doesn't make his 2007 season any less amazing. McLaren gave him that chance and kudos to him for grabbing it. I admire Lewis a lot for that.

Edited by rasul, 26 May 2013 - 07:55.


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#140 docronzo

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 07:53

Rosberg is better than Hamilton.

#141 garoidb

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 08:04

That wasn't the point I was making, so no, thank you, but I'm not high. You are correct; the fact that neither Ferrari nor RBR are putting rookies in their cars shows exactly why some would consider that Lewis "lucked out" into a top car. It doesn't mean he didn't prove that he deserved the seat later. He did. But even Vettel "earned" that RBR seat more, proving himself in a midfield car first. So yes, in many ways Lewis had the easiest path to success compared to Alonso and Vettel. It's not his fault, of course, but he indeed was very fortunate McLaren gave him that chance. It's not every day we see a rookie in a top team. It doesn't make him a lesser driver and doesn't make his 2007 season any less amazing. McLaren gave him that chance and kudos to him for grabbing it. I admire Lewis a lot for that.


I am not so sure that getting the McLaren drive in 2007, rather than a midfield drive for a year, was actually the best thing for Lewis in the long run. A lot of the turmoil around him comes from high expectations (his own as well as others), and they were set that year.

As for nine consecutive podiums being impressive, he hasn't done it since. The longest run has been four.

#142 rasul

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 08:16

I am not so sure that getting the McLaren drive in 2007, rather than a midfield drive for a year, was actually the best thing for Lewis in the long run. A lot of the turmoil around him comes from high expectations (his own as well as others), and they were set that year.

As for nine consecutive podiums being impressive, he hasn't done it since. The longest run has been four.

Yes, in the long run perhaps it wasn't the best thing for Lewis. Besides setting everyone's expectation too high, Lewis doesn't have the invaluable experience of driving different cars and working with different teams. Perhaps that's why he's struggling a bit now. I'm sure--I hope--he can overcome his problems with time.

#143 mattferg

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 08:46

But guys, if Rosberg is better than Hamilton and Webber better than Rosberg... Doesn't this mean Vettel is much, much better than Hamilton?

*waits for thread implosion*

#144 jrg19

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 14:50

Perez looked very good today, jenson certainly has his work cut out.

#145 Shiroo

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 14:53

Perez looked very good today, jenson certainly has his work cut out.

no he didn't. he were dive bombing in that chicane as ****. he is fast but god damn it, he needs to use brain, not pray to god that guy ahead will just yield cause he won't want to have DNF

#146 jrg19

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 15:44

It wasn't his fault kimi turned in on him and ruined both their races.

#147 AndreasF1

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 18:05

:up: I don't agree though with the landslide vote for Rosberg. I'd still go for Webber overall.


Coming from a guy who claims that Prost was faster than Senna :rotfl:

#148 Kingshark

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 23:57

You should have just stopped with the first sentence. But you got carried away and lost all credibility of your post stating Massa as second best and better than Webber. Massa does not figure in any conversation of being the toughest teammate these days.

And Webber does? :lol:

This year, Webber has been no more convincing against Vettel than Massa has been against Alonso, so your point is invalid.

Whatever the case may be, it can hardly be debated that Massa is a better teammate than Grosjean.

Webber is more debatable, but I'd say Massa edges it overall.

But guys, if Rosberg is better than Hamilton and Webber better than Rosberg... Doesn't this mean Vettel is much, much better than Hamilton?

In what universe?

Edited by Kingshark, 26 May 2013 - 23:59.


#149 mattferg

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 00:13

In what universe?


The Williams 2006 universe. Same logic you use to argue Massa and Kimi are evenly matched proving Alonso is better than Raikkonen... Which is bull, ofc.

#150 Kingshark

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 00:25

The Williams 2006 universe. Same logic you use to argue Massa and Kimi are evenly matched proving Alonso is better than Raikkonen... Which is bull, ofc.

Glad we can agree on something.