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Mercedes and Pirelli in 'secret' tyre test


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#51 meddo

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 08:47

Funny,
and all of this came out just when Hembery somewhat gently said that Pirelli could quit F1....
Bernie, just retire. Or go to prison.

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#52 zapppa83

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 08:47

That's unfair

#53 P123

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 08:50

In-season testing in F1 is forbidden and Red Bull and Ferrari are considering a protest against Mercedes.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/22672228


Why aren't Ferrari protesting Pirelli too? :D

#54 Timstr11

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 08:50

The FIA is ''keen'' for the tyres to change for ''safety reasons''.
This shows they've taken things very seriously.

Whether it's fair to go testing with one team is debatable, I agree. But if that's the rule, then there's not much to bring against them.
Change the rule.

#55 kraduk

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 08:51

Surely Pirelli are at fault for requesting the help of a team without letting the FIA know?



thats quite a big assumption as we dont know either way that the fia knew or not. I suspect they did as its to big a risk if they didnt

#56 Mackey

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 08:51

This is bullshit.
How a thing like this can be within the rules??

#57 plumtree

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 08:51

No wonder Mercedes didn't criticise Pirelli as much as Red Bull.

'We don't complain. We just get preferential treatment, remaining silent. Red Bull, you fool. :smoking:'

#58 peroa

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 08:52

Nobody knew about this till sunday morning?
Who is BS-ing who here?

#59 F.M.

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 08:53

Why aren't Ferrari protesting Pirelli too? :D

Because apparently Pirelli can ask a team to help them with tyre testing. In season testing for a team is however not allowed. So what Pirelli did seems to be OK ("Hey Mercedes, can you bring a car to perform some tyre testing?"), what Mercedes did not ("Sure, we'll bring our 2013 car!")

Edited by F.M., 26 May 2013 - 08:54.


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#60 ZooL

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 08:55

It should have been open to all teams, or at very least they should all have been informed.



Even if it's within the rules, it's very unfair to other teams.



I don't think thats how F1 works. Remember when we all found out that Ferrari has a secret technical rules veto? I know we want F1 to function like the IOC, but we're a far way from that.

I think its a duty of Pirelli to help teams struggling with their control tyre. Although this does seem to be taking it a little too far, but if its within the rules...

At least the rule was used responsibly. Imagine if RBR were given the test.

Edited by ZooL, 26 May 2013 - 08:56.


#61 P123

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 08:55

Because apparently Pirelli can ask a team to help them with tyre testing. In season testing for a team is however not allowed. So what Pirelli did seems to be OK ("Hey Mercedes, can you bring a car to perform some tyre testing?"), what Mercedes did not ("Sure, we'll bring our 2013 car!")


Do we know it was with their current car?


#62 kraduk

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 08:56

This is bullshit.
How a thing like this can be within the rules??



the fact that its in the rule book that all of the teams accepted when they signed up for the championship. Remember there is no such thing as spirit of the rules in F1, its either legal or its not

Edited by kraduk, 26 May 2013 - 08:56.


#63 Szoelloe

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 08:56

Fantastic, good on Merc. They have tested a development version of next year's tyres. If it was an FIA supervised test, its a non-issue. Ferrari and especially Red Bull can cry me a river. As things stand now, Pirelli could be out anyway.

#64 F.M.

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 08:57

the fact that its in the rule book that all of the teams accepted when they signed up for the championship. Remember there is no such thing as spirit of the rules in F1, its either legal or its not

I still haven't seen anyone post that rule?

#65 Gene and Tonic

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 08:57

Will be interesting to see if Mercedes have a marked improvement in race pace - will really underline the value of testing and how much the teams are restricted.

I'm amazed this news has only just come to light - an F1 car going around Catalunya is bound to be pretty conspicuous! As Buttoneer say's though, there are plenty of details we do not yet know about it - car model, driver, tyre type etc etc. Let's wait for it to all come out. At any rate, it can't be cheating if it's within the rules, although it's certainly unfair.

#66 Risil

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 08:57

The road to hell is paved with good intentions

#67 dreamer

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 08:58

We know that Pirelli is asked to do some changes for Canada...
Is this testing going to affect in any way the changes planned for Canada?

#68 rghojai

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 08:58

From the BBC article:

The tyres used at the test were development designs for next season, as well as a new tyre Pirelli wants to introduce at next month's Canadian Grand Prix.

How is that not an advantage for MB?!?

#69 Juggles

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 08:58

Bernie is desperate for Merc to win, so they'll commit long-term - it's their presence that's attracting others like Honda, and he wants BMW back as the more premium manufacturers, the more the float will be worth.

Otherwise I can't see why Pirelli would do this off their own back - a single team struggling when most others aren't clearly points to a car issue - so why would Pirelli be desperate to help that team solve it?


Image. Mercedes has become the rallying call for the anti-Pirelli brigade, the prime example of how Pirelli has gone too far. It's bad for the sport if the pole man keeps dropping through the field like a stone; it is therefore bad for Pirelli too.

By the way I'm not condoning this. I think it's massively unfair on the other teams. I'm just trying to see it from Pirelli's point of view.

#70 trogggy

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 08:59

Do we know it was with their current car?

I hope so - it's a much better story that way. :lol:

#71 dreamer

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:00

From the BBC article:

The tyres used at the test were development designs for next season, as well as a new tyre Pirelli wants to introduce at next month's Canadian Grand Prix.

How is that not an advantage for MB?!?


This is unfair...


#72 rasul

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:00

No wonder Mercedes didn't criticise Pirelli as much as Red Bull.

Pretty much this. At least Red Bull were honest and outspoken about this while Mercs seemed so noble, saying things like "we'll find out why our car doesn't work well with tyres, we should work harder, etc." Yes, they probably found out--thanks to secret Pirelli tests. Disgusting.

Edited by rasul, 26 May 2013 - 09:01.


#73 muramasa

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:01


by the looks of it, it seems all teams knew about this private testing but chose this timing (merc locking front row, before the race starts) to raise the issue publicly?

#74 F.M.

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:01

Sources say governing body the FIA knew about the test, with contracts outside the rules allowing it to happen.
The tyres used at the test were development designs for next season, as well as a new tyre Pirelli wants to introduce at next month's Canadian Grand Prix.


I guess now a lot more teams will be against the introduction of new tyres in Canada....

Edited by F.M., 26 May 2013 - 09:03.


#75 P123

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:01

From the BBC article:

The tyres used at the test were development designs for next season, as well as a new tyre Pirelli wants to introduce at next month's Canadian Grand Prix.

How is that not an advantage for MB?!?


Well, Pirelli may not be in the sport next season, and the tyre changes for Canada have been vetoed by Lotus, Ferrari and Force India.

#76 kraduk

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:02

Will be interesting to see if Mercedes have a marked improvement in race pace - will really underline the value of testing and how much the teams are restricted.

I'm amazed this news has only just come to light - an F1 car going around Catalunya is bound to be pretty conspicuous! As Buttoneer say's though, there are plenty of details we do not yet know about it - car model, driver, tyre type etc etc. Let's wait for it to all come out. At any rate, it can't be cheating if it's within the rules, although it's certainly unfair.


yep, it was a macca slr :cool:


#77 P123

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:02

by the looks of it, it seems all teams knew about this private testing but chose this timing (merc locking front row, before the race starts) to raise the issue publicly?


Probably. I doubt a three day test could have any hope of really being secret.

#78 Crafty

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:03

The teams must have known about this.

Imagine you work for a team and the cars are being stripped of engines, gearboxes, suspension, wings and being stuck in to a box. Refuelling rigs drained and packed. All the computer gear being put away, the car life lines used in the pits packed up.
And Merc still have a fully constructed car, refuelling rig, computers and enough team members to run it all.

Find it hard to believe that no-one knew they were staying, no-one saw or heard the car going around the track for 3 days, no-one noticed the Merc transporters still at the circuit ?

If Pirelli are allowed to ask a team to help them with a tyre test Merc would make sense - they have a fast car with tyre deg problems. One assumes that the provision for this assistance is written in to a contract between the FIA and Pirelli (or at least the teams and Pirelli). So we need to hear more about the stipulations in the contract. I would assume the FIA were aware of the test.

Also keep in mind we don't know which car was used, what tyres were used (could be experimental prototypes?) or the driver. One assumes it wasn't Nico or Lewis.

Don't forget teams will complain about anything doesn't mean their complaint is justified. They'd complain about another team having an aero advantage if the driver farted...



#79 Mtom

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:03

What if they ban Pirelli for five races? :eek:


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#80 garoidb

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:04

Will be interesting to see if Mercedes have a marked improvement in race pace - will really underline the value of testing and how much the teams are restricted.


Any success Mercedes have this season will be tainted.

I'm amazed this news has only just come to light - an F1 car going around Catalunya is bound to be pretty conspicuous! As Buttoneer say's though, there are plenty of details we do not yet know about it - car model, driver, tyre type etc etc. Let's wait for it to all come out. At any rate, it can't be cheating if it's within the rules, although it's certainly unfair.


The teams must have known it happened, and also known that they had been stitched up by Pirelli/Bernie under the rules. I guess they figured the most damaging thing they could do would be to draw attention to the underhandedness in the most public way possible, on the morning of the Monaco GP when the cheats would be trying to bask in the glory of a front row lock out.

#81 F.M.

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:05

Also keep in mind we don't know which car was used, what tyres were used (could be experimental prototypes?) or the driver. One assumes it wasn't Nico or Lewis.

We know this: experimental tyres for next year as well as the tyres Pirelli wants to introduce in Canada

Edited by F.M., 26 May 2013 - 09:05.


#82 Richard T

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:06

Had this been Ferrari or Red Bull this forum would have erupted ;)

#83 Alanmelon

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:06

Nobody knew about this till sunday morning?
Who is BS-ing who here?



by the looks of it, it seems all teams knew about this private testing but chose this timing (merc locking front row, before the race starts) to raise the issue publicly?


This. It's always been the same. When will a complaint have the greatest chance of punishing a rival? Mere hours before a race. Of course they all knew about this long before this morning :well:

#84 garoidb

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:07

Also keep in mind we don't know which car was used, what tyres were used (could be experimental prototypes?) or the driver. One assumes it wasn't Nico or Lewis.


Who is their test/reserve driver? Who is the Pirelli test driver this season?

#85 SpaMaster

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:08

I would love for FIA to come and explain this shambles away.

#86 trogggy

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:08

Any success Mercedes have this season will be tainted.

So nothing out of the ordinary for F1 then?

I guess now a lot more teams will be against the introduction of new tyres in Canada....

If all the teams said they wanted to stay with the current tyres - and by implication there's no safety issue with them - I doubt Pirelli would be devastated. Merc have still had 3 days on slightly different tyres, which can't do any harm. Pirelli stick two fingers up in Red Bull's direction.
It's a win-win. :D

Edited by trogggy, 26 May 2013 - 09:18.


#87 Cool Beans

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:08

Well this is some bullshit right here.

#88 Timstr11

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:08

Sources say governing body the FIA knew about the test, with contracts outside the rules allowing it to happen.
The tyres used at the test were development designs for next season, as well as a new tyre Pirelli wants to introduce at next month's Canadian Grand Prix.

I guess now a lot more teams will be against the introduction of new tyres in Canada....

The tread peeling off is a safety issue. The FIA is responsible for safety so the call is theirs.

#89 sheepgobba

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:10

I think what's more telling is that the test was 'secret' usually you have people posting pictures or reports on twitter, or even there are straight line sessions.

Pirelli or Mercedes should be fined and penalised accordingly. And I always thought if you do have some sort of 'test' sessions for others to drive the car it has to be approximately two years old? For example when Martin drove the Ferrari F10 for Sky last year.



#90 sheepgobba

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:11

Way to hijack a thread.


I wouldn't really say so. I think he's trying to point out how manipulative Brawn can be when running his teams.



#91 garoidb

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:11

So nothing out of the ordinary for F1 then?


Debatable technical rulings have affected F1 championships before, for sure. This one is quite stark and easy for the general public to grasp, though.

#92 Group B

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:11

Even if it's within the rules, it's very unfair to other teams.

Yup, it's amongst the worst cheating I've ever seen in F1. If I were Ferrari, RB and Lotus right now I would be catestrophically unhappy.

#93 scheivlak

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:11

Who is their test/reserve driver? Who is the Pirelli test driver this season?

Mercedes: Sam Bird IIRC
Pirelli: Jaime Alguersuari

#94 Ravenak

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:12

If the FIA knew about this, with outside contracts, who knows what they can do without the teams' consent.

For example: the tyres in Canada, they will change them as they please without telling the teams.

"Paranoia much?"

Edited by Ravenak, 26 May 2013 - 09:12.


#95 Lights

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:12

"According to sources at Mercedes, the test was allowed because Pirelli can call upon one outfit for a private test to help it with products if circumstances dictate."

That just doesn't make sense at all.

#96 garoidb

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:12

I think what's more telling is that the test was 'secret' usually you have people posting pictures or reports on twitter, or even there are straight line sessions.

Pirelli or Mercedes should be fined and penalised accordingly. And I always thought if you do have some sort of 'test' sessions for others to drive the car it has to be approximately two years old? For example when Martin drove the Ferrari F10 for Sky last year.


With new or development tyres though?

#97 sheepgobba

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:13

The tread peeling off is a safety issue. The FIA is responsible for safety so the call is theirs.


But wouldn't you say it would have been better had all the teams been there to test? If we are after safety why should just one team get the chance?

#98 F.M.

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:13

If it really was a non-issue you would think there would already be a fully-explaining statement from Pirelli, Mercedes and/or FIA out there by now?

#99 jimjimjeroo

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:13

How are Pirelli supposed to develop a tyre for 2013 onwards using old spec cars?

Follow the rules people hate it, break the rules people hate it!!

If they chose Red Bull everyone would be up in arms saying it was favouritism!

They can't win what ever they do!

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#100 garoidb

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:14

Mercedes: Sam Bird IIRC
Pirelli: Jaime Alguersuari


Thanks. It is not obvious, then, which driver (or drivers) would have done the test. I am not convinced that it wasn't one of the regular race drivers. No doubt we will know very soon.