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Mercedes and Pirelli in 'secret' tyre test


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#101 Timstr11

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:15

Horner:
http://adamcooperf1....s-pirelli-test/


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#102 Mackey

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:15

How are Pirelli supposed to develop a tyre for 2013 onwards using old spec cars?

Follow the rules people hate it, break the rules people hate it!!

If they chose Red Bull everyone would be up in arms saying it was favouritism!

They can't win what ever they do!


Yes they can. Let all the teams test the tyres. Simple and fair


#103 Radion

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:15

According to Motorsport-Total.com, they used the current Mercedes.

So, tyres: experimental ones for next year as well as the tyres Pirelli wants to introduce in Canada. Car: Mercedes FW04.

#104 F.M.

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:16

If Pirelli are allowed to ask a team to help them with a tyre test Merc would make sense - they have a fast car with tyre deg problems. One assumes that the provision for this assistance is written in to a contract between the FIA and Pirelli (or at least the teams and Pirelli). So we need to hear more about the stipulations in the contract. I would assume the FIA were aware of the test.

Uhm, no. It would make 'sense' for Red Bull to do this testing. Mercedes is just a car that abuses it tyres heavily for some reason. Red Bull otoh (according to claims by both Red Bull themselves and Pirelli) have a car that is simply too fast around the corners for the current tyres.

#105 jimjimjeroo

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:17

Yes they can. Let all the teams test the tyres. Simple and fair

That would be against the rules

Impossible to arrange at short notice, a massive undertaking to accommodate all the teams and if they were development tyres I very much doubt there would be enough to go around

#106 F.M.

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:18

Horner: “We found out secondhand last night, .... What’s disappointing is that it’s been done in not a transparent manner. A three-day test has taken place running a current car on tyres that are going to be used in the next Grand Prix. Irrelevant what you call it, that’s testing."

Edited by F.M., 26 May 2013 - 09:19.


#107 Vesuvius

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:20

This is not fair at all, they should hve had other teams permission for this and the test should have been done with the old car...this is not fair to anybody,a shme for the sport, somekind of penalty is a must .

#108 Crafty

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:20

Uhm, no. It would make 'sense' for Red Bull to do this testing. Mercedes is just a car that abuses it tyres heavily for some reason. Red Bull otoh (according to claims by both Red Bull themselves and Pirelli) have a car that is simply too fast around the corners for the current tyres.


But RB haven't experienced delaminations have they ? Pirelli want to get to the bottom of why that happens.
The way the Merc uses the tyres causes the failure, the way the RB uses them does not cause the failure.

Which would you test ?

#109 prty

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:20

Well I'm outraged at the news! I've splattered my porridge over my desk as I choked when reading the news this morning! The private test should have been for McLaren, god knows they need the help the most!


I'm actually surprised that it wasn't Red Bull :D


#110 FastnLoud

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:20

and?

not breaking any rules, Pirelli requested it.

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#111 Jimisgod

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:20

Rofl waffles, this will be all we hear about all week if Merc wins.

#112 F.M.

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:21

How are Pirelli supposed to develop a tyre for 2013 onwards using old spec cars?

Pirelli have said themselves that even testing with 2013 cars would be of little use for developing next years tyres since the powertrain (i.e. amount of torque) is so different. That's why they want an early test in 2014 in warm conditions so they can rectify any problems.

Edited by F.M., 26 May 2013 - 09:21.


#113 rasul

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:22

Horner:
http://adamcooperf1....s-pirelli-test/

“We found out secondhand last night,” said Christian Horner. “I think there’s confusion between what is contractually permissible and what isn’t, and what a team when it enters the World Championship is allowed to do within the sporting regs. It’s a situation that we need clarification on, and our position is that we are going to request that clarification.

“I can understand Pirelli wanting to test the tyres – they’ve obviously got issues with the tyres. What’s disappointing is that it’s been done in not a transparent manner. A three-day test has taken place running a current car on tyres that are going to be used in the next Grand Prix. Irrelevant what you call it, that’s testing.

“First of all we need to deal with it through the proper channels, so that’s what we’ll look at doing.”


Very unfair.

#114 SpaMaster

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:22

Technically, all teams have a ban on in-season testing. So, they did not allow Mercedes to store even an iota of data from the runs? Was telemetry acess provided to Mercedes? Is it like Mercedes gave their car for rent blindly, knew nothing of what happened and the car was dropped off at Brackley early next morning outside their gate? Which driver was driving the Mercedes? Non-Mercedes driver?

#115 F.M.

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:22

But RB haven't experienced delaminations have they ? Pirelli want to get to the bottom of why that happens.
The way the Merc uses the tyres causes the failure, the way the RB uses them does not cause the failure.

Which would you test ?

If they wanted that they would have tested with the current tyres, not the ones for Canada and 2014.

#116 garoidb

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:22

That would be against the rules

Impossible to arrange at short notice, a massive undertaking to accommodate all the teams and if they were development tyres I very much doubt there would be enough to go around


I'm not so sure about all that, but this makes it obvious (to me anyway) that there will have to proper, planned in-season tyre testing for all teams in future. Ad hoc arrangements like this are fraught with problems, and issues do arise during GP seasons. Testing on a limited number of tracks on the days immediately following their GPs seems reasonable to me.

#117 study

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:22

Horner:
http://adamcooperf1....s-pirelli-test/


Horner can do one after all the rule twistings Redbull have being caught doing the last few years.

And Ferrari, secret Veto? ahem.

#118 NateF

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:23

I might watch the pre race stuff now, nothing like a good controversy

#119 Risil

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:23

I'm mostly surprised it's taken so long for the FIA's ridiculous testing ban to bite it on the arse.

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#120 muramasa

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:23

The teams must have known about this.

Imagine you work for a team and the cars are being stripped of engines, gearboxes, suspension, wings and being stuck in to a box. Refuelling rigs drained and packed. All the computer gear being put away, the car life lines used in the pits packed up.
And Merc still have a fully constructed car, refuelling rig, computers and enough team members to run it all.

Find it hard to believe that no-one knew they were staying, no-one saw or heard the car going around the track for 3 days, no-one noticed the Merc transporters still at the circuit ?

If Pirelli are allowed to ask a team to help them with a tyre test Merc would make sense - they have a fast car with tyre deg problems. One assumes that the provision for this assistance is written in to a contract between the FIA and Pirelli (or at least the teams and Pirelli). So we need to hear more about the stipulations in the contract. I would assume the FIA were aware of the test.

Also keep in mind we don't know which car was used, what tyres were used (could be experimental prototypes?) or the driver. One assumes it wasn't Nico or Lewis.

Don't forget teams will complain about anything doesn't mean their complaint is justified. They'd complain about another team having an aero advantage if the driver farted...

yea.
only concern I have atm is why this hasnt been arranged, understood and agreed beforehand b/w teams/FIA/FOM/Pirelli. Elementary school kids would do better than this. Sometimes F1 community is as mature as kindergarten brats are...



#121 Risil

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:23

I might watch the pre race stuff now, nothing like a good controversy


:up:

#122 FastnLoud

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:24

Horner:
http://adamcooperf1....s-pirelli-test/


Don't think anyone really cares what Horner thinks to be honest

#123 Szoelloe

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:24

I would love for FIA to come and explain this shambles away.


If they knew about it, you can be sure they will.


There is no Concorde, no RRA. Protesting is futile. Protesters will be assimilated.





#124 naiboz

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:24

WTF?

Mind blown

Amazed

Stunned

#125 Ferrari2183

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:24

Formula 1 just loves this sort of thing.

The fact that Mercedes has got their hands on a 1000km worth of tyre data, 4 weeks in advance, to be introduced in Canada stinks. This will just make a whole lot of teams veto the proposed changes and we go back to square 1.

Edited by Ferrari2183, 26 May 2013 - 09:27.


#126 dreamer

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:24

But RB haven't experienced delaminations have they ? Pirelli want to get to the bottom of why that happens.
The way the Merc uses the tyres causes the failure, the way the RB uses them does not cause the failure.

Which would you test ?


Toro rosso and Marussia had delaminations too, why they were not invited?


#127 F.M.

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:25

yea.
only concern I have atm is why this hasnt been arranged, understood and agreed beforehand b/w teams/FIA/FOM/Pirelli. Elementary school kids would do better than this. Sometimes F1 community is as mature as kindergarten brats are...

Well, seems like the plan was to do it in complete secrecy from other teams to avoid protests / a scandal. Didn't quite work out.

Edited by F.M., 26 May 2013 - 09:25.


#128 Diablobb81

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:25

The story would be even more awesome if it was Michael doing the test. :p

But Vince McMahon would be proud of the current F1.

#129 Ferrari2183

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:26

If they knew about it, you can be sure they will.


There is no Concorde, no RRA. Protesting is futile. Protesters will be assimilated.

This. It opens up Pandora's box now for teams to do as they please in a non transparent way.

#130 SpaMaster

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:26

If they knew about it, you can be sure they will.


There is no Concorde, no RRA. Protesting is futile. Protesters will be assimilated.

Yeah, that's what I am saying. I would love for FIA to come and give an explanation on this. You know explanation that means people can understand!?

#131 Vesuvius

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:26

If this has been done without FIA permission and without any team knowing, with current car and upcoming tyres...the only penalty I would give is race ban or even bigger penalty but also pirelli has to take some blame.

#132 peroa

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:27

This. It opens up Pandora's box now for teams to do as they please in a non transparent way.

Well, they can't do as they please since they need tyres to do so...
:smoking:

#133 EthanM

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:27

it's OUTRAGEOUS how much they manipulate the championship. WWE doesn't even touch the level of massaging of the results that goes on in F1.

#134 Crafty

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:27

Toro rosso and Marussia had delaminations too, why they were not invited?


Pace inconsistent, making it difficult to compare data.
The Mercs are fairly consistent on pace so comparison is easier. Its also a faster car, meaning more load being put through the tyres - if you are going to test something test it to the max.

it's OUTRAGEOUS how much they manipulate the championship. WWE doesn't even touch the level of massaging of the results that goes on in F1.


Its not manipulation though really. The Merc has been quick in qualifying all year, not so great in the races. We are likely to see a repeat of that today.

Edited by Crafty, 26 May 2013 - 09:28.


#135 mlsnoopy

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:29

A competitive Mercedes is good for the show.
It's funny that guys that support Pireli have the biggest problem with these.

#136 ocp

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:30

What can I say?

Thank you F1 for treating everybody (fans, followers, viewers) like idiots again.

I don't really care about the teams because each team would do the same.

#137 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:30

Pace inconsistent, making it difficult to compare data.
The Mercs are fairly consistent on pace so comparison is easier. Its also a faster car, meaning more load being put through the tyres - if you are going to test something test it to the max.



Its not manipulation though really. The Merc has been quick in qualifying all year, not so great in the races. We are likely to see a repeat of that today.

For all your arguments here is a team that fits the bill perfectly, consistent, had de-laminations not at the front of the grid wouldnt piss everyone off and look underhanded - Force India

#138 Cool Beans

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:30

Pace inconsistent, making it difficult to compare data.
The Mercs are fairly consistent on pace so comparison is easier. Its also a faster car, meaning more load being put through the tyres - if you are going to test something test it to the max.

The Mercs are anything but consistent. Plus they are an anomaly, their car is simply crap on the tyres while other teams manage so the problem is with their car; it makes absolutely no sense to use that as a bench mark :confused:

Edited by Cool Beans, 26 May 2013 - 09:33.


#139 brakedistance

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:31

I remember when it was revealed that during the Schumacher years, Bridgestone essentially designed tyres for the Ferrari even though everybody else had to use them as well. Very similar and also terrible.


I appreciate that the pressures of today's world bring a "win at all costs" mentality, but this kind of cheating turns us all away.

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#140 trogggy

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:31

If this has been done without FIA permission and without any team knowing, with current car and upcoming tyres...the only penalty I would give is race ban...

'Bernie's on the phone.'
'And?'
'He's mumbling summat about Kwik-fit - get down there sharpish before they run out.'
'Aaaaaargh.'


#141 RedOne

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:32

If Mercedes say it was within the rules why keep it secret before everyone finds out?

#142 dreamer

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:32

Pace inconsistent, making it difficult to compare data.
The Mercs are fairly consistent on pace so comparison is easier. Its also a faster car, meaning more load being put through the tyres - if you are going to test something test it to the max.


What about Force India then...


#143 F.M.

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:33

A competitive Mercedes is good for the show.
It's funny that guys that support Pireli have the biggest problem with these.

Two Mercedes drivers putting their car on top in Qualy and then tumbling down the order in the race is a pretty good and funny show imo! :)

#144 Crafty

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:34

For all your arguments here is a team that fits the bill perfectly, consistent, had de-laminations not at the front of the grid wouldnt piss everyone off and look underhanded - Force India


Who are currently opposing tyre changes for Canada that Pirelli want to do.
I dont think they are exactly on speaking terms at the moment.


#145 Szoelloe

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:35

Well, seems like the plan was to do it is complete secrecy from other teams to avoid protests / a scandal. Didn't quite work out.


I hardly think anybody thought this will not be spotted in Barcelona. It is impossible to keep a 3 day test a secret. They just don't give a flying fxxk. pirelli has been begging for up-to-date hardware to test with, they never got it because of petty team jealousy. You see the result of producing tyres blind. Merc grabbed at the chance of testing. All the others can ask for is the same 3-day testing possibility. I love Horner whining about this, when they are are constantly outsourcing between their own high-tech companies since years to circumvent the ex-RRA. They have lied about that for years. So gaain, good on Merc.




#146 Slackbladder

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:35

Don't you just love f1 never a dull moment!!!

#147 SpaMaster

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:35

The heart of the issue is whether Mercedes had access to the testing data. If Mercedes got no knowledge back from this, this would be easily explained away. But if a full-blown Mercedes testing team was out there like in a testing session testing their CAR, this would be a huge problem. Frankly I can't see how the latter can be allowed in the rule book, even though I can see the former can be allowed. Waiting to hear full details on this deal.

#148 F.M.

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:36

Pace inconsistent, making it difficult to compare data.
The Mercs are fairly consistent on pace so comparison is easier. Its also a faster car, meaning more load being put through the tyres - if you are going to test something test it to the max.

It had nothing to do with getting an understanding of the delamination because they didn't test with the current tyres and you can't get on top of a tyre issue by testing different tyres!

#149 darkkis

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:36

From the BBC article:

The tyres used at the test were development designs for next season, as well as a new tyre Pirelli wants to introduce at next month's Canadian Grand Prix.

How is that not an advantage for MB?!?

What... the... :mad:

#150 Hyatt

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 09:36

Well I'm disappointed with this, as a Mercedes Fan I cannot admire any or their archievments from now on. On the other hand I can understand that Pirelly used that chance. They saw the worst tyre behaviour so far in Barca and maybe saw the chance to replicate that and finally find the root cause.
In the age of smartphones and twitter I wonder how a 3 day test in Barca can be kept secret for so long :confused: