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Mercedes and Pirelli in 'secret' tyre test


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#3351 Szoelloe

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 09:08

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/22762318

Gary Anderson: Test did look secretive, any running in 2013 car would be beneficial.



funny the media and the journos are running in circles too.

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#3352 Szoelloe

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 09:10

I meant in general, not Mercedes specifically. If he couldn't learn anything, what harm could it do?

ps I never mentioned who gave the orders for such tight security, because I don't know.

pps the photographer himself said the levels of secrecy were very different at the two tests, and he was at both of them, so I wouldn't bother arguing with him on that.


Personally, I don't see any harm in letting the public in the circuit to watch for free, or selling 1 EUR tickets, really this attitude is is frustrating as it is, I agree.


#3353 Slartibartfast

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 09:14

'Isn't it odd' that circuit security asked someone trying to film cars running a Barcelona to leave - I guess that if you tried something similar at any circuit when any form of testing was taking place, especially if it was an exclusive hire session you would get a similar response. Of course it is possible that when Tom Wheatcroft developed Donington Park he put a 4m high concrete wall all the way round the circuit perimiter because he had some spare cement hanging around rather than to deter joe public

So you think the wall is to deter Joe Public taking photographs more than to deter Joe Public from trespassing onto the track itself or to reduce noise spill in order to deter Joe Public from complaining about the noise?

Given that Formula One cars are covered with sponsor logos, "isn't it odd" that a team should try to prevent their sponsors receiving the benefit of media exposure if the team has nothing to hide? Of course it's possible that the team don't want to give the sponsors more publicity than they have paid for.

#3354 ExFlagMan

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 09:36

If Mercedes are not supposed to have got any benefit from running the test, what harm could a member of the public taking a couple of photos do to anyone (or their business)?

It's clear the maximum anyone could learn from it is nothing, given Mercedes can learn nothing from their far closer involvement, so why not let him snap away?

Let's look at the problem from the circuits point of view.
The circuit is private property - so the have no obligation to let anyone have access.
OK so Joe Bloggs is doing no harm by taking a few snaps through a gap in the wall. These are going to be long range fuzzy snaps and his twitter mates are not that impressed, so next time he finds a gap in a fence and gets inside to get a better position to take photos. Being a private test, there are fewer people about to stop him getting into dangereous areas. You might say OK if he gets wiped out by a car that's just his own fault.
At the minimum it makes the tyre test results a tad less useful as there is not a lot of call for tyres to run on a blood coated surface.
On a serous note - letting the public have access adds cost to the circuit hire and hence the cost of the test, as Public Liability Insurance comes into play. I assume the cost of such insurance isn't cheap and the cover probably comes with a stipulation for a much higher level of security.
As a result of this I would suggest that stopping Joe Bloggs taking the odd snap does not seem that sinister or become definitive proof of something underhand going on - or am I just being naive?

#3355 Sakae

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 10:10

If Mercedes are not supposed to have got any benefit from running the test, what harm could a member of the public taking a couple of photos do to anyone (or their business)?

It's clear the maximum anyone could learn from it is nothing, given Mercedes can learn nothing from their far closer involvement, so why not let him snap away?

...privacy, safety of Joe Public, how many Joes Public you let in? One, hundred, why not everyone then? Parameters of the situation is "small scale" event conducted on private property, at least cost possible.

#3356 oetzi

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 10:12

am I just being naive?

I don't know. There are many plausible-sounding reasons things could be done.

I don't think physical access to the track is the issue, though.

IIRC the member of the public in question said all the views from outside were blocked too, places from which he had previously taken pictures with no problems. I'm just wondering what harm it could do leaving those views unobscured if there's nothing to be learnt by anyone but Pirelli and the test wasn't secret?


#3357 ExFlagMan

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 10:47

I don't know. There are many plausible-sounding reasons things could be done.

I don't think physical access to the track is the issue, though.

IIRC the member of the public in question said all the views from outside were blocked too, places from which he had previously taken pictures with no problems. I'm just wondering what harm it could do leaving those views unobscured if there's nothing to be learnt by anyone but Pirelli and the test wasn't secret?

I posted a possible explanation for the viewing spots being blocked qa few days ago - repeated here in case you missed it.

'The Mercedes test was a few days after a GP at the circuit. The red canvas cover would very likly to have been placed to cover the gap for the GP - as we all know Bernard Charles has a morbid phobia that someone might get a peek at the circuit during a GP without having contributed to the BCE 'golden casket' fund'.

I seem to recall similar covers being placed over the emergency exit gates in the perimiter walls to block viewing when Donington hosted the GP in 1993.
The probable more mundane reason for the covers being there, as opposed to my BCE jibe, is that as they are emergency gates then you do not really want anyone in the area if you need to open them in an emergency.
It could we be a rider on in the insurance to keep the area clear.

#3358 ExFlagMan

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:16

...privacy, safety of Joe Public, how many Joes Public you let in? One, hundred, why not everyone then? Parameters of the situation is "small scale" event conducted on private property, at least cost possible.

Given that Pirelli would have wanted an excluse hire of the circuit to maximise the returns on their testing it is likely they would have use the circuits contract for exclusive tests. These are often used by road car manufacturers to do high speed track testing of new models and they tend to get upset if someone gets a sneak previesw of the car.
Such a standard contract might well require blockage of photo access. The security guys would thus automatically move any photographers on as part of the normal job for that day. Might also explain the cover over the gate.

Edited by ExFlagMan, 05 June 2013 - 11:18.


#3359 MikeV1987

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:31

Sorry if already posted.
http://www.f1fanatic...cret-tyre-test/

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#3360 Nemo1965

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 12:22

I was the poster who referred to 1994 first but it was not to disrupt this thread by opening a can of worms or a can of spam. I mentioned just instance in the recent past that show that the FIA has a record for being... ah, lets say 'smart' about decisions like these.

I think, for example, that in the end the punishment for McLaren after Spygate was just and proportionate. The problem I had was that Toyota had done exactly the same... and received no appropriate punishment. NOT THAT I WANT TO BRING UP SPYGATE!

But if you discuss the possible punishment of an offender, you must be able to dig up jurisprudence, musn't ya? And the fear I have is that in the end, the FIA will either taint the championship by acting too weak or either kick out Mercedes because of some political reasons we the fans can not yet perceive.

Edited by Nemo1965, 05 June 2013 - 12:23.


#3361 oetzi

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 12:48

I posted a possible explanation for the viewing spots being blocked qa few days ago - repeated here in case you missed it.

'The Mercedes test was a few days after a GP at the circuit. The red canvas cover would very likly to have been placed to cover the gap for the GP - as we all know Bernard Charles has a morbid phobia that someone might get a peek at the circuit during a GP without having contributed to the BCE 'golden casket' fund'.

I seem to recall similar covers being placed over the emergency exit gates in the perimiter walls to block viewing when Donington hosted the GP in 1993.
The probable more mundane reason for the covers being there, as opposed to my BCE jibe, is that as they are emergency gates then you do not really want anyone in the area if you need to open them in an emergency.
It could we be a rider on in the insurance to keep the area clear.

All possible, but the only info we have is that areas were covered which are not usually covered. I'm guessing neither of us knows the exact location or standard procedures there well enough to say anything more than that, beyond speculating. Personally, I'd have thought that any very temporary things like canvas gate covers would be down within two and a half days of the end of a GP, but given that this is one specific example in one specific location, we'll probably never know why they were still there.

To your mind, it's a natural thing. To my mind, it's one more anomaly that could point to something a little bit fishy going on. When there's enough smell of fish, there's generally a rotten fish somewhere nearby. And there's quite a lot around this test that smells fishy. Any of the things on their own, fine. When there are so many things that are a bit out of the ordinary, contradictory, or unlikely then there's usually something funny going on.

It could just be coincidence and confusion, and all have been perfectly above board, of course. Doesn't look that way to me, though.



#3362 Sakae

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 13:11

Sorry if already posted.
http://www.f1fanatic...cret-tyre-test/

Discussed already a few pages back.

#3363 ExFlagMan

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 13:14

All possible, but the only info we have is that areas were covered which are not usually covered. I'm guessing neither of us knows the exact location or standard procedures there well enough to say anything more than that, beyond speculating. Personally, I'd have thought that any very temporary things like canvas gate covers would be down within two and a half days of the end of a GP, but given that this is one specific example in one specific location, we'll probably never know why they were still there.

To your mind, it's a natural thing. To my mind, it's one more anomaly that could point to something a little bit fishy going on. When there's enough smell of fish, there's generally a rotten fish somewhere nearby. And there's quite a lot around this test that smells fishy. Any of the things on their own, fine. When there are so many things that are a bit out of the ordinary, contradictory, or unlikely then there's usually something funny going on.

It could just be coincidence and confusion, and all have been perfectly above board, of course. Doesn't look that way to me, though.

You may be correct, but conspiracy theorists always manage to build a seemingly plausible theory on a lot of very unconnected small details.

If I wanted to hold a 'highly secret' tyre test I think maybe I would not choose to run it at a circuit 2 days after a GP meeting, when there would still have been a lot of off track activities going on so plenty of people would have been around to see it. The are plenty of less public tracks available if you look around, just one being the Ascari track in Malaga apparently miles from anywhere in a secluded valley.

As for the circuit staff not having removed any 'Bernie' covers, it would hardly be one of the most pressing of activities immediately in the first few days after a GP. Alternatively it could have been placed there as a result of the phantom photographers previous activities - perhaps Ferrari where not happy that their secret test was filmed.

#3364 oetzi

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 13:22

You may be correct, but conspiracy theorists always manage to build a seemingly plausible theory on a lot of very unconnected small details.

So now anyone thinking this is a bit fishy is a conspiracy theorist? I guess we might as well end this discussion before someone calls someone a Nazi.

Cheers.

ps I'm stating plain facts, you're the one building 'plausible theories'. Just though I should mention that.

Edited by oetzi, 05 June 2013 - 13:23.


#3365 SpaMaster

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 13:47

i'm not trying to get into an argument or anything......but......



i'd be very surprised if they did not know the regulation, and it's still apparently the case that they were invited to test by Pirelli. Would it be reasonable to assume that Merc might've thought the test was sanctioned? (i.e. FIA-approved)

No. It is not in Pirelli's realms to legislate these things. Pirelli is not at all authority to trust on this.

#3366 ExFlagMan

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 13:54

So now anyone thinking this is a bit fishy is a conspiracy theorist? I guess we might as well end this discussion before someone calls someone a Nazi.

Cheers.

ps I'm stating plain facts, you're the one building 'plausible theories'. Just though I should mention that.

OK you win, its all a big conspiracy, although I was not aware I was calling you a conspiracy theorist. If you want to believe you are stating plain facts by regurgitating a few rumours that's up to you - you may not like my 'plausible thories' but at least you seem to admit they are might be plausible.
What I have suggested is based on my own experiences on the edges of motor sport, but if that's not enough evidence to pursuade you then OK I'll admit to failure.
From now on I'll keep out of it and leave you with your assumptions :wave:
I guess it will all come out in the wash eventually - but there again as it the FIA who are judge and jury as well as prosecutorsin the case what comes out may have shrunk somewhat.
Wonder how long the thread will be arguing over the outcome.

#3367 SpaMaster

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 14:02

Why does it take so long for FIA to investigate and bring this issue to a closure? How many more pressing matters are there for them? They should have discussed this already on Monday or Tuesday.

#3368 fololo

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 14:02

OK you win, its all a big conspiracy, although I was not aware I was calling you a conspiracy theorist. If you want to believe you are stating plain facts by regurgitating a few rumours that's up to you - you may not like my 'plausible thories' but at least you seem to admit they are might be plausible.
What I have suggested is based on my own experiences on the edges of motor sport, but if that's not enough evidence to pursuade you then OK I'll admit to failure.
From now on I'll keep out of it and leave you with your assumptions :wave:
I guess it will all come out in the wash eventually - but there again as it the FIA who are judge and jury as well as prosecutorsin the case what comes out may have shrunk somewhat.
Wonder how long the thread will be arguing over the outcome.

Guys when is a decision beeing made what panushiment the cheaters are getting?

#3369 oetzi

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 14:04

OK you win, its all a big conspiracy, although I was not aware I was calling you a conspiracy theorist. If you want to believe you are stating plain facts by regurgitating a few rumours that's up to you - you may not like my 'plausible thories' but at least you seem to admit they are might be plausible.
What I have suggested is based on my own experiences on the edges of motor sport, but if that's not enough evidence to pursuade you then OK I'll admit to failure.
From now on I'll keep out of it and leave you with your assumptions :wave:
I guess it will all come out in the wash eventually - but there again as it the FIA who are judge and jury as well as prosecutorsin the case what comes out may have shrunk somewhat.
Wonder how long the thread will be arguing over the outcome.

It sounded a lot like you were, but if you weren't then fair enough.

I have my own experiences on the edges of motorsport, nothing in F1, and nothing recent, but enough to be pretty sure everyone who does it at all seriously will take whatever advantage they can without clearly (or, in some cases, detectably) breaking the rules.

If you want to believe Mercedes were just being good neighbours by rocking up with their current car, race team and both race drivers to do some blind tyre testing for Pirelli, that's your prerogative. If you think Pirelli's repeated change of stance, and the contradictory things said by Mercedes, Pirelli and the FIA are simply a long list of blunders, that is too. I won't list everything again, but there are far too many incidences of backtracking, contradiction, unusual occurrences and obfuscation for it to sound as innocent to me as it does to you.

Like you, I doubt we'll find out much of anything in the end, and the punishment (if any) will fit the broad view rather than the crime. And, yes, I expect there will be a lot of debate over it, either way. Let's see what happens, and what we find out. If anything.

Edited by oetzi, 05 June 2013 - 14:06.


#3370 Melbourne Park

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 14:16

...privacy, safety of Joe Public, how many Joes Public you let in? One, hundred, why not everyone then? Parameters of the situation is "small scale" event conducted on private property, at least cost possible.


IMO insurance issues would stop any member of the public from having access to the track.

Normally there are people around to ensure that both the cars and spectators are safe; not so in this secret test of the Mercedes and its tyres.


As far as secrecy goes, its damn obvious.

Firstly, the FIA were not there by all reports. And they should have been.

Why not quote a part of Dieter Rencken's article in Autosport which covered some of the secrecy issue, amongst other things?

on Thursday afternoon in Monaco during a meet-the-press session – held after the official FIA media conference, during which tyres were discussed for around half the conference's 30-minute duration – Pirelli's head of motorsport Paul Hembery spoke about the ideal situation: testing in the immediate aftermath of a grand prix, calling such a situation 'a dream'.

Did he mention that just that had occurred less than a week earlier, mention that Pirelli had provided enough rubber for 200 laps during such a test? Nope...

On the Saturday, after Mercedes locked out the all-important front row in Monaco, team boss Ross Brawn spoke glowingly about the 'tireless work' his team had put in. Did he mention the tasks included three days of lappery at the harshest circuit (on tyres) of all, namely Circuit de Catalunya? Nope...

Hamilton's tweets did not mention the tyre test...
Did the two drivers, one of whom is arguably the most prolific tweeter on the grid, tweet about their activities? Did Mercedes, which publishes the most comprehensive grand prix preview kit, make a single reference to the test? Nope...

Did Pirelli, a company as much in F1 for marketing spin-off as for technical reasons and recently much maligned, albeit unfairly, over the performance of its F1 products, issue a single post-test bulletin? Nope...


And there's a whole lot of obligations that were not fulfilled, but those points above make it perfectly clear that the test was not only a secret, but that Mercedes and Pirelli for that matter, wanted it to stay that way.


Edited by Melbourne Park, 05 June 2013 - 14:18.


#3371 SpaMaster

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 14:30

Yep, if it is not a secret test, why didn't Pirelli issue a test bulletin assuaging fans how they are trying to improve the situation? When the Toyota cars and Renault cars were used earlier for tests, we always heard about them.

#3372 oetzi

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 14:30

after Mercedes locked out the all-important front row in Monaco, team boss Ross Brawn spoke glowingly about the 'tireless work' his team had put in.

:rotfl:

Now that's what you call a way with words.

#3373 ExFlagMan

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 15:21

So now anyone thinking this is a bit fishy is a conspiracy theorist? I guess we might as well end this discussion before someone calls someone a Nazi.

Cheers.

ps I'm stating plain facts, you're the one building 'plausible theories'. Just though I should mention that.

Not sure how you have managed to drag them into this , but at least we should be able agree that Mercedes supplied the car.

Probably room for debate about legality of the year and not sure if Pirelli supplied the tyres.

Sorry - couldn't resist - I'll fetch me coat!

Edited by ExFlagMan, 05 June 2013 - 15:24.


#3374 EthanM

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 15:36

Not sure how you have managed to drag them into this


it's called Goodwin's Law

#3375 Nemo1965

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 15:50

I have my own experiences on the edges of motorsport, nothing in F1, and nothing recent, but enough to be pretty sure everyone who does it at all seriously will take whatever advantage they can without clearly (or, in some cases, detectably) breaking the rules.


Have you read 'The unfair advantage' by Mark Donohue? It changed my ideas about cheating in motorsport. It's a very funny book because the author himself in his time was considered to be the most sincere, straight-as-an-arrow kind a guy.

But that is offtopic. I agree with Oetzi that if the Barcelona-track officials did more than their duty obscuring the view on the track, at exactly the moment the Mercedes-team AND Pirelli were doing tests, the probability of it being coincidence is rather low...





#3376 Szoelloe

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 16:11

Have you read 'The unfair advantage' by Mark Donohue? It changed my ideas about cheating in motorsport. It's a very funny book because the author himself in his time was considered to be the most sincere, straight-as-an-arrow kind a guy.

But that is offtopic. I agree with Oetzi that if the Barcelona-track officials did more than their duty obscuring the view on the track, at exactly the moment the Ferrari and Mercedes-team AND Pirelli were doing tests, the probability of it being coincidence is rather low...



fixed

#3377 Sakae

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 16:57

WTH happened to Todt? Where is his report?

#3378 ExFlagMan

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 17:22

WTH happened to Todt? Where is his report?

It was obviously stolen and destroyed by Pirelli and/or Mercedes, along with all the evidence, to enable this thread to continue :p

#3379 Sakae

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 17:26

It was obviously stolen and destroyed by Pirelli and/or Mercedes, along with all the evidence, to enable this thread to continue :p

There you go; I was rather suspicious that it is for an approval at Ferrari and RBR prior publishing. :)

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#3380 Slartibartfast

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 17:27

WTH happened to Todt? Where is his report?

It was written over the course of three days last week. It hasn't been published and no one's been told about it. But it isn't secret.

#3381 ExFlagMan

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 17:29

It was written over the course of three days last week. It hasn't been published and no one's been told about it. But it isn't secret.

I assume it is hidden by a cover hastily placed over the windows if the FIA building.

#3382 boldhakka

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 17:30

I suspect things have already been decided, but there may be some disagreement about how best to handle the PR spin. There is no way it will be handed over to the tribunal, since they've now been structured to be apolitical.

#3383 alfa1

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 17:35

I suspect things have already been decided,



Like... what happens if they fine Pirelli, and they refuse to pay?
:)

I'd like to see that happen, just for the Schadenfreude.


#3384 Sakae

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 17:36

Pirelli: "no more tweaks this season" is rather very suggestive headline vis a vis report.

#3385 ExFlagMan

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 17:55

Like... what happens if they fine Pirelli, and they refuse to pay?
:)

I'd like to see that happen, just for the Schadenfreude.

Especially as Bridgestone have annouced they are not interested in coming back to F1 and with Hankook not intereted it just leaves Michelin as potential replacement if Pirelli where to walk.
Perhaps that's why Todt is absent - has spent the whole day kow-towing to the Michelin Board.

#3386 Szoelloe

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 17:56

Like... what happens if they fine Pirelli, and they refuse to pay?
:)

I'd like to see that happen, just for the Schadenfreude.


:lol:

I'll go with that, but it won't happen. I suspect it should though.

#3387 Sakae

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 18:18

Especially as Bridgestone have annouced they are not interested in coming back to F1 and with Hankook not intereted it just leaves Michelin as potential replacement if Pirelli where to walk.
Perhaps that's why Todt is absent - has spent the whole day kow-towing to the Michelin Board.

I would rather know what Ecclestone said when he read it.

#3388 Donka

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 19:05

^ THIS ^

The real report is written, problem is Pirelli spends huge on signage and VIP unlike previous tyre companies, and Merc spends huge on Paddock Club, VIP and adds value to their IPO. FOM/Bernie need them more than they need F1. So then there will be the "compromise" report where FIA takes blame. Problem is even if they were to try an "level the playing field" Pirelli has already said they cannot supply a test to all teams at once.

What to do, what to do....

As Kimi says: Wewillseee

#3389 SpaMaster

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 19:38

Yeah, 'nothing will happen' chorus now after a week of record-breaking moaning.. Just because Bridgestone said it was not interested to come back, Mercedes would get away. It is one thing to say Pirelli won't be getting the stick. But Pirelli does not have to be blamed to find fault with Mercedes. Those are two entirely different issues. If Mercedes motorhome, paddock club, etc. are so important, this case would have never been pursued in the first place. People get carried away way too much. They were asking for heads last week and this week 'oh, the report won't be mailed!'.

Bridgestone and Hankook disinterest has no bearing on whether Mercedes would be punished or not.

#3390 D.M.N.

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 20:45

Continue discussion here - http://forums.autosp...howtopic=186825