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Hamilton Vs Rosberg - 2013 Part 2 [merged]


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#101 Mtom

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 16:35

Not sure if any of you watched the NBC broadcast. In it one of the commentators mentioned that Hamilton had intentionally bunched up the group to allow a 10 second gap for Rosberg during the SC period. The commentator said that this was part of the team strategy, so Ham ending up in 4th means he sacrificed his own race for Rosberg.


This is BS. Ham was closing on to Rosberg before the SC, and they were faster than RB on both tire, and had less degradation.

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#102 garoidb

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 16:39

He is implying that if HAM was the last out of the garage in Q3, he would have taken Pole position.
He needed a better S1 in Q3 that's it, and I don't see how leaving the garage later would have helped.


If he started is Q3 lap later, but finished it at the actual time, he might have got pole. Maybe this is the argument?

#103 Megacale

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 16:41

This is BS. Ham was closing on to Rosberg before the SC, and they were faster than RB on both tire, and had less degradation.


It is read a few posts back, some similiar comments I have read?

#104 TomNokoe

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 16:44

Sky reviewed their pitstops after the race, he lost a good 4/5 seconds by backing off from Nico too much and fell behind the RB's as a result, common sense says get as close to Nico as possible and queue, not slow down to leave a gap and potentially lose time, no need for it and Lewis should of figured that one out.

Those 4 seconds made no difference. Red Bull were 20 seconds faster on the delta lap

#105 Lelouch

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 16:45

What I still don't like is that for one reason or the other Mercedes can't have a perfect race for both cars. I doubt the SC mess up with Lewis was unavoidable. Other than both did a great job and I'm really happy for Nico. I'm still not convinced regarding the resolution of the tire issues though.

I hope these 2 will keep being close since this pair is one of the few interesting things in the 2013 championship. I still think that Lewis will come on top in the future but I'm really happy that people have started ackwnoledging Nico. I doubt he will a WDC but his talent deserves at least one imho.

P.S. After today's crashfest I wish Schumi was around, just not in a Mercedes seat :(

Edited by Lelouch, 26 May 2013 - 16:45.


#106 Mtom

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 16:46

Those 4 seconds made no difference. Red Bull were 20 seconds faster on the delta lap


Thanks i dont have to post it again..

#107 ZooL

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 16:58

That piece Davidson did about how Hamilton lost out to the bulls fell apart as you watched it, it was total bull, Hamilton could not come out ahead of the bulls after Vettel made up 13secs on him before he pitted.

These new Merc spec Pirelli's look good anyway...;)

Looking back at it Merc got the strategy wrong and they were very lucky that that Rosberg did not lose his P1 either. They pitted a lap too late after the accident. They took a gamble they did not need to make IMO.

He is implying that if HAM was the last out of the garage in Q3, he would have taken Pole position.
He needed a better S1 in Q3 that's it, and I don't see how leaving the garage later would have helped.

The thinking is that the track was damp and getting faster and faster as they came of the intermediates and switched to the softs.

I think Saturday was definately a case of the last one crossing the line had an advantage.

#108 olliek88

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 17:07

Those 4 seconds made no difference. Red Bull were 20 seconds faster on the delta lap


Would they not of got infront of Nico if they were that much faster?

#109 TomNokoe

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 17:10

Would they not of got infront of Nico if they were that much faster?

They very nearly did. Part of me thinks Rosberg knew exactly what he was doing. You don't go round in 2 minutes with a clear track on an in lap.

Edited by TomNokoe, 26 May 2013 - 17:19.


#110 stuck-in-first-gear

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 17:40

Son of Keke :up:

#111 olliek88

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 17:47

They very nearly did. Part of me thinks Rosberg knew exactly what he was doing. You don't go round in 2 minutes with a clear track on an in lap.


They have to run to a delta when the SC is out though, which is quiet slow, which is why i'm still baffled how Seb was supposedly 20 secs quicker than Lewis when they're supposed to be running to the same time, of course Lewis pitted but then Seb pitted the lap before so theoretically he lost time in the pits too, i can only think that it was Lewis's slow final sector that was the difference.

Who knows, its easy to criticise in hindsight.

EDIT: BBC timed it as 11 seconds from Rosberg leaving his box to Hamilton entering it. Should of been neigh on instant and Lewis admitted that himself, fair play to him for being big enough to do so.

Edited by olliek88, 26 May 2013 - 17:53.


#112 FastnLoud

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 17:52

Well one Nico, take my hat off to him, showed what a world class driver he is. :up:

As for all the downbeat Lewis fans, he had the pace that Nico had today it was just a bit of mistake of the team and his part that lost him 2nd place. The race between Lewis and Nico was won by 0.091 seconds in Qualifying yesterday, Lewis was never going to get by in the first corner.

He set the fastest lap of the race when the safety car came out and was over 2 seconds behind Nico, the team should not of told him to make a gap of 6 seconds and just let Lewis come in behind Nico, i can't understand that at all, they must have thought they had the Redbulls covered, Lewis ended up backing off more than that.

Edit: Pit Radio Edit up soon of the race.

Edited by FastnLoud, 26 May 2013 - 17:54.


#113 Masenco

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 18:04

They have to run to a delta when the SC is out though, which is quiet slow, which is why i'm still baffled how Seb was supposedly 20 secs quicker than Lewis when they're supposed to be running to the same time, of course Lewis pitted but then Seb pitted the lap before so theoretically he lost time in the pits too, i can only think that it was Lewis's slow final sector that was the difference.

Who knows, its easy to criticise in hindsight.

EDIT: BBC timed it as 11 seconds from Rosberg leaving his box to Hamilton entering it. Should of been neigh on instant and Lewis admitted that himself, fair play to him for being big enough to do so.


Dafuq was he doing dropping back 11seconds?

#114 undersquare

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 18:19

Dafuq was he doing dropping back 11seconds?

He was told to make a 6s gap, but overdid it, not being aware of the tactical situation. I can only assume since the team didn't say more that they weren't aware of the tactical situation either?

#115 as65p

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 18:41

He was told to make a 6s gap, but overdid it, not being aware of the tactical situation. I can only assume since the team didn't say more that they weren't aware of the tactical situation either?


Impossible. Some years ago a Hamilton fan educated me how he calculated all the permutations of overtaking the safety car in his head within a second or two, now you're accusing him of not knowing the tactical situation? Ridicolous.

Haters gonna hate, I guess. :rolleyes:

#116 FastnLoud

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 18:46

He was told to make a 6s gap, but overdid it, not being aware of the tactical situation. I can only assume since the team didn't say more that they weren't aware of the tactical situation either?


There was the mistake.

Just let him pit right behind Nico.

#117 rog

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 18:55

Not sure if any of you watched the NBC broadcast. In it one of the commentators mentioned that Hamilton had intentionally bunched up the group to allow a 10 second gap for Rosberg during the SC period. The commentator said that this was part of the team strategy, so Ham ending up in 4th means he sacrificed his own race for Rosberg.



Hamilton slowed down too much in his inlap.

"I slowed the car down too much when the safety car was out so when I came round to the pits, Nico had already done his stop. It was my fault.

"I was told to have a six second gap, maybe I had a bit more, and I lost out massively.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rmula1/22676270
http://www.planetf1....n-t-good-enough


Looking at the lap chart the gap was 13 seconds big not 6. Hamiltons fault.

Edited by rog, 26 May 2013 - 18:55.


#118 f1fastestlap

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 19:00

How the hell was he going to get the timing to a 6s gap?
I mean with a 6s gap he can't even see rosberg to be able to calculate it...
This is BS from the team, they should never ask him to do it. Just put him behind rosberg and maximise the time



#119 Kingshark

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 19:02

How the hell did this topic already get a second 100 page thread, and we're only 6 races into the season? :drunk:

With that being said, the scorecard is:

Qualy: Lewis 3 - Nico 3
Race: Lewis 3 - Nico 3
Points: Lewis 62 - Nico 47
DNF: Lewis 0 - Nico 2
Wins: Lewis 0 - Nico 1
Podiums: Lewis 2 - Nico 1
Poles: Lewis 1 - Nico 3
AWBF: Lewis 2 - Nico 2

Edited by Kingshark, 26 May 2013 - 22:21.


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#120 bub

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 19:05

:up: Well done Rosberg, totally deserves this win. Hamilton didn't have the best weekend but not too bad in the end. Hopfully Merc can keep making improvements with the tyre management so both drivers can have a decent season.

#121 7MGTEsup

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 19:09

What is the delta time they are suppost to do behind the safety car and how much are they allowed to be under it? As Vettel and Webber were going full chat when they went past the pits.

#122 apoka

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 19:09

How the hell did this topic already get a second 100 page thread, and we're only 6 races into the season? :drunk:

With that being said, the scorecard is:

Qualy: Lewis 3 - Nico 3
Race: Lewis 3 - Nico 3
Points: Lewis 62 - Nico 37
DNF: Lewis 0 - Nico 2
Podiums: Lewis 2 - Nico 1
Wins: Lewis 0 - Nico 1

47 points for Rosberg.

"Poles" and "ahead when both finished" would also be interesting (although the Malaysia team order has a negative effect for Rosberg there).


#123 undersquare

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 19:14

There was the mistake.

Just let him pit right behind Nico.

I don't get how Lewis was supposed to measure his gap to another car, either :confused:

#124 abc

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 19:29

The thinking is that the track was damp and getting faster and faster as they came of the intermediates and switched to the softs.

I think Saturday was definately a case of the last one crossing the line had an advantage.

Timing didnt decide pole position, they were 5sec. apart on track during their final lap.

#125 PurpleHam

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 19:33

Timing didnt decide pole position, they were 5sec. apart on track during their final lap.

No the advantage was Rosberg knowing the delta of his team mate, Hamilton was blind, flip it and I have no doubt Hamilton would have found a tenth to beat Rosberg.

People are acting like Rosberg totally destroyed Hamilton, far from it, he beat him by being smart, that's it.

#126 TomNokoe

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 19:36

It was not 11 seconds. It was at best 5. The BBC are WRONG. The delta time was around a 1:33 because you lose 20 seconds on an in lap and Rosbergs inlap was a 1.53. Kimi got investigated for a 1.32. Hamiltons in lap was a 2:02. If we subtract the 20 seconds needed for a stop we have 1:42. That gives him 9 seconds free. In these 9 seconds Nico also had to make a stop so -4 seconds and we are back to the original 5 second gap. Rosbergs in lap wasn't slow at all as I previously suggested, it was right on the limit. Hamilton's actual gap to Rosberg was around 9 seconds. Had he been 5 seconds closer he would have slotted in straight after Nicos stop. He was always going to lose 4 seconds waiting for Rosberg. Yes he over shot the 6 second gap, but I don't think it made a difference

Edit I don't know where this 11 seconds figure has came from. Hamilton was around 9 seconds behind Rosberg and entered the box 5 seconds after

Edited by TomNokoe, 26 May 2013 - 19:39.


#127 sosidge

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 19:48

Why the debate? Hamilton acknowledged he had gone too slow on his inlap and cost himself a heap of time... 11s, 9s, 5s... doesn't matter how you want to interpret the gap, he lost two positions on track cheaply.

Mistakes on both sides - Mercedes made a mistake in asking him to gap on track rather than just run to a normal delta and stack, Lewis made a mistake by missing the target by such a big margin.

Wouldn't have changed the result, Rosberg had it well under control. Despite the many interruptions he looked to have plenty in hand at the chequered flag whereas both Webber and Lewis were dropping back from their teammates.

#128 pingu666

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 20:05

not sure how they would order the cars after some had pitted anyways, lewis might of ended up 4th anyways :/
the pitlane might be to narrow to stack the cars well, you could perhaps block the lane?

#129 robefc

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 20:14

Why the debate? Hamilton acknowledged he had gone too slow on his inlap and cost himself a heap of time... 11s, 9s, 5s... doesn't matter how you want to interpret the gap, he lost two positions on track cheaply.

Mistakes on both sides - Mercedes made a mistake in asking him to gap on track rather than just run to a normal delta and stack, Lewis made a mistake by missing the target by such a big margin.

Wouldn't have changed the result, Rosberg had it well under control. Despite the many interruptions he looked to have plenty in hand at the chequered flag whereas both Webber and Lewis were dropping back from their teammates.


There's a reason why their tyres, particularly Lewis's, were screwed at the end, there was (gasp) some racing between them.



#130 FastnLoud

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 20:16

I don't get how Lewis was supposed to measure his gap to another car, either :confused:




Agree, quite silly really.

Just can't understand what they were doing, why drop back 6 seconds anyway. If Lewis would have maintained the same speed Nico was doing before he pitted he would have basically gone straight into his pitbox without waiting behind. He was just under 3 seconds behind Nico before the Safety car came out.

:down:

#131 robefc

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 20:18

No the advantage was Rosberg knowing the delta of his team mate, Hamilton was blind, flip it and I have no doubt Hamilton would have found a tenth to beat Rosberg.

People are acting like Rosberg totally destroyed Hamilton, far from it, he beat him by being smart, that's it.


I'm not sure I understand what you are suggesting? What sort of delta time could Rosberg have being 5 seconds behind Lewis on track?

#132 inca_roads

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 20:26

It was not 11 seconds. It was at best 5. The BBC are WRONG.


:up:

I didn't see the BBC coverage, but if they said this, someone's got something badly wrong. Both stops were shown on the live feed, and if you watch it back and just count, it's clearly nowhere near 11 seconds from when Rosberg drove away to where Lewis stopped on the marks. Not even half that, as you said.

And also, as I said previously, if you watch it back you'll see Vettel flying past before Hamilton is anywhere near out of the pits and up to speed - I don't think he was ever going to keep that position, even if he pitted right behind Nico. It'd have been closer with Webber but I doubt he'd have kept that either.

That said, it was still a mistake.

#133 Wolf

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 20:39

What is the delta time they are suppost to do behind the safety car and how much are they allowed to be under it? As Vettel and Webber were going full chat when they went past the pits.


I think the delta referred to, as well as 6 and 11 second figures, were in reference to Rosberg's time, not the SC or anything else... I would venture a guess they wanted Ham to do a 6 sec slower in lap than Ros in order that he comes in for the tyre change just as they release Ros and have fresh set for him ready. The matter of fact is that Ham left too big a gap to Ros (I judged it to be close to 5 secs as Rosberg was released), hence 6+5=11.

As for head-to-head, as Nico supporter I'm glad to see him gaining an upper hand after mishaps in opening races, as well as both drivers performing quite well. Ham's bad race in Spain was, just as Nico's few races back, probably due to the team's lack of clue as what's to be done with the tyres rather than driver's fault... Admittedly, Nico seems to be more adept, as well as willing, to drive smoother and find the way to drive around tyre problem. Incidentally, I'd guess that if radio communication from Spain went in other direction- if Nico received a tip from pits informing him where Ham was doing better than him and how he was doing so, there would be quite an uproar in this thread...



#134 TomNokoe

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 20:42

Why the debate? Hamilton acknowledged he had gone too slow on his inlap and cost himself a heap of time... 11s, 9s, 5s... doesn't matter how you want to interpret the gap, he lost two positions on track cheaply.

Mistakes on both sides - Mercedes made a mistake in asking him to gap on track rather than just run to a normal delta and stack, Lewis made a mistake by missing the target by such a big margin.

Wouldn't have changed the result, Rosberg had it well under control. Despite the many interruptions he looked to have plenty in hand at the chequered flag whereas both Webber and Lewis were dropping back from their teammates.

The debate is because Hamilton could have been stacked and he still wouldn't have made it, and as a rampant fanboy, the last thing I want to see is unfair Hamilton bashing. I don't buy that Rosberg had it under control. In the first stint the gap fluctuated between 0.8 and 2.9 seconds, they were driving to a delta, we don't know what Hamilton could have done. If we are basing Rosbergs comfort off of a 0.091 margin in qualifying then... just nope.

#135 P123

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 20:44

Wolf- If Hamilton entered the pit box 5s after NR left then the 'delta' was 5s plus whatever Rosberg's pit time was; say the usual 3s, so 8s total. In that case he was 2s outside of the 6s requested delta to his teammate. I've not seen the footage again but I'm not convinced 2s would have made a difference as the Bulls seemed to go comfortably past.

#136 FastnLoud

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 20:44

The debate is because Hamilton could have been stacked and he still wouldn't have made it, and as a rampant fanboy, the last thing I want to see is unfair Hamilton bashing. I don't buy that Rosberg had it under control. In the first stint the gap fluctuated between 0.8 and 2.9 seconds, they were driving to a delta, we don't know what Hamilton could have done. If we are basing Rosbergs comfort off of a 0.091 margin in qualifying then... just nope.



The race was lost for Lewis yesterday in Qualifying by 0.091. That's it.

#137 TomNokoe

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 20:48

The irony is that without the SC Rosberg would have got pit priority and would have unknowingly gone on the hard to warm up soft tyres and Hamilton probably would have inherited the lead. Really wasn't his day :rotfl:

Edited by TomNokoe, 26 May 2013 - 20:49.


#138 Nemo1965

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 20:53

The race was lost for Lewis yesterday in Qualifying by 0.091. That's it.


Mmm. Yes, the difference was small in qualifying. But in all sessions, Rosberg was faster. One could also argue that Rosberg did not drive the lap he could have driven. Rosberg was the better driver this weekend, and I think even his most bitter detractors will have to admit: Rosberg is a topdriver, just like and equal to Hamilton.





#139 garoidb

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 20:59

No the advantage was Rosberg knowing the delta of his team mate, Hamilton was blind, flip it and I have no doubt Hamilton would have found a tenth to beat Rosberg.

People are acting like Rosberg totally destroyed Hamilton, far from it, he beat him by being smart, that's it.


I'm not sure I understand what you are suggesting? What sort of delta time could Rosberg have being 5 seconds behind Lewis on track?


I too would be interested to know how running five seconds behind Lewis on the track could have helped Nico. I guess he is arguing that Nico gets to know Lewis's Sector 1 time when he has five seconds of Sector 1 left to complete, whereas Lewis is five seconds into Sector 2 when he finds out Nico's Sector 1 time, and so on.

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#140 TomNokoe

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 21:03

Mmm. Yes, the difference was small in qualifying. But in all sessions, Rosberg was faster. One could also argue that Rosberg did not drive the lap he could have driven. Rosberg was the better driver this weekend, and I think even his most bitter detractors will have to admit: Rosberg is a topdriver, just like and equal to Hamilton.


not yet.

#141 garoidb

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 21:07

not yet.


We cannot yet judge. Maybe that is what you meant?

#142 TomNokoe

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 21:09

We cannot yet judge. Maybe that is what you meant?

No, I meant that he has to do this consistently and be able to perform under pressure. At the minute everything is going for him. Once Hamilton gets his A game on then we will know who the real Rosberg is

#143 as65p

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 21:17

No, I meant that he has to do this consistently and be able to perform under pressure. At the minute everything is going for him. Once Hamilton gets his A game on then we will know who the real Rosberg is


Yeah. Unless Rosberg at the same time slips into his B game, then we'll never know.

Edited by as65p, 26 May 2013 - 21:18.


#144 3star

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 21:21

I don't blame him at all, but Hamilton looks slightly out of place with his level of enthusiasm in the lead pic in the story :lol:

http://www.telegraph...rb-victory.html


#145 garoidb

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 21:22

No, I meant that he has to do this consistently and be able to perform under pressure. At the minute everything is going for him. Once Hamilton gets his A game on then we will know who the real Rosberg is


So we cannot yet judge!

#146 PurpleHam

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 21:26

I'm not sure I understand what you are suggesting? What sort of delta time could Rosberg have being 5 seconds behind Lewis on track?

If he's up or down, thus adjusting his efforts accordingly.

And I'm not too sure but I think they get more up to date times than just at the end of the sector, as in a constant changing delta, I could be wrong though.

Knowing if you are up or down, still with time to find 0.9 is enough of an advantage to count.

Edited by PurpleHam, 26 May 2013 - 22:13.


#147 F1Johnny

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 21:30

Strong win for Nico. Controlled it all the way. :up:

#148 DarthWillie

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 21:32

If he's up or down

That's not usefull 5 seconds behind, and I kind of doubt they do delta driving in Q3, they just go full out

#149 swerved

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 21:34

No, I meant that he has to do this consistently and be able to perform under pressure. At the minute everything is going for him. Once Hamilton gets his A game on then we will know who the real Rosberg is


Conversely, perhaps we're seeing who the real Lewis is.


Brilliant performance from Nico over the entire weekend, fast throughout, an exhilarating pole, and a very well driven race, a result he worked hard to earn, and truly deserved :up:


#150 PurpleHam

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 21:35

No, I meant that he has to do this consistently and be able to perform under pressure. At the minute everything is going for him. Once Hamilton gets his A game on then we will know who the real Rosberg is

I totally agree, I have no doubts in my mind Hamilton will put 0.5 between him and Rosberg on multiple more occasions this season in quali.

And when it omes to race craft, he's got a long way to go to match Lewis.