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Hamilton Vs Rosberg - 2013 Part 2 [merged]


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#2601 SophieB

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 13:15

Oh no, we are NOT re-visiting the Jenson v Lewis scorecard. Get back on topic, please, everyone.

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#2602 TomNokoe

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 13:34

Oh no, we are NOT re-visiting the Jenson v Lewis scorecard. Get back on topic, please, everyone.

You'll never keep us down! :lol:

I'm still unsure over Hamilton's ability to nail it every single weekend, simply because it's only been half a season and he's had setup problems on more than most, but he has managed to fix them. With Spa coming up, the horrors of twittergate and the awry setup are still rather fresh in mind. I'm glad he's generating the negative Nicole energy (which apparently is going to be turned into positive, again, ugh) into drive and determination for his championship push, he seems focussed on one thing and one thing only (I hope). He is leaving no stone unturned, it's exciting.

and seeing as 50% of this thread is Nico
I'm still wary of him (as a Hamilton fan, I actually think Nico is great). He has the speed somewhere, I felt a little sorry for him in Hungary, his run down to T1 was electric but from the exit onwards everything simply unravelled. You can't blame him for staring P2 in the face and a victory shot to becoming a tad short sighted and aggressive. The difference between when Hamilton was going through a rough patch was that the speed was expected to come back, and with a vengeance, can that really be said for Nico, where is he going to find that extra gear? Although it isn't as if he is slow, both drivers are pushing each other right now, its healthy... sort of. :)


#2603 alframsey

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 14:12

You'll never keep us down! :lol:

I'm still unsure over Hamilton's ability to nail it every single weekend, simply because it's only been half a season and he's had setup problems on more than most, but he has managed to fix them. With Spa coming up, the horrors of twittergate and the awry setup are still rather fresh in mind. I'm glad he's generating the negative Nicole energy (which apparently is going to be turned into positive, again, ugh) into drive and determination for his championship push, he seems focussed on one thing and one thing only (I hope). He is leaving no stone unturned, it's exciting.

and seeing as 50% of this thread is Nico
I'm still wary of him (as a Hamilton fan, I actually think Nico is great). He has the speed somewhere, I felt a little sorry for him in Hungary, his run down to T1 was electric but from the exit onwards everything simply unravelled. You can't blame him for staring P2 in the face and a victory shot to becoming a tad short sighted and aggressive. The difference between when Hamilton was going through a rough patch was that the speed was expected to come back, and with a vengeance, can that really be said for Nico, where is he going to find that extra gear? Although it isn't as if he is slow, both drivers are pushing each other right now, its healthy... sort of. :)

I wouldn't say he was focused purely on driving, only the last weekend he said his mind was elsewhere and he wasn't really focused.

#2604 TomNokoe

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 14:30

I wouldn't say he was focused purely on driving, only the last weekend he said his mind was elsewhere and he wasn't really focused.

It's hard to explain... I think Hamilton initiated the whole thing personally, and I think he's struggling but he did it because he wants a championship. There's a fine line between being focussed and your mind being elsewhere. It's almost as if part of him is like "stop f£&*ing about Lewis and drive the bloody car," regardless of how much it 'hurts' him. He's putting being a racing driver at the very very top of his priorities, with little room for anything else, I'm not saying he didn't before, but I can just sense this new, ruthless sort of energy from him. Maybe I'm crazy.

#2605 Rybo

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 14:46

I wouldn't say he was focused purely on driving, only the last weekend he said his mind was elsewhere and he wasn't really focused.


He did say he was determined and went for gaps he normally wouldn't have. Plus everyone know how much he wants his 2nd WDC. He has a good chance to do so this season.

#2606 alframsey

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 14:57

It's hard to explain... I think Hamilton initiated the whole thing personally, and I think he's struggling but he did it because he wants a championship. There's a fine line between being focussed and your mind being elsewhere. It's almost as if part of him is like "stop f£&*ing about Lewis and drive the bloody car," regardless of how much it 'hurts' him. He's putting being a racing driver at the very very top of his priorities, with little room for anything else, I'm not saying he didn't before, but I can just sense this new, ruthless sort of energy from him. Maybe I'm crazy.

Very good points, I can see what you mean when you consider it from this perspective.

#2607 SCEPurple

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 14:58

It's hard to explain... I think Hamilton initiated the whole thing personally, and I think he's struggling but he did it because he wants a championship. There's a fine line between being focussed and your mind being elsewhere. It's almost as if part of him is like "stop f£&*ing about Lewis and drive the bloody car," regardless of how much it 'hurts' him. He's putting being a racing driver at the very very top of his priorities, with little room for anything else, I'm not saying he didn't before, but I can just sense this new, ruthless sort of energy from him. Maybe I'm crazy.


Where did he say that, about the gaps?

#2608 Nemo1965

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 15:09

You'll never keep us down! :lol:

I'm still unsure over Hamilton's ability to nail it every single weekend, simply because it's only been half a season and he's had setup problems on more than most, but he has managed to fix them. With Spa coming up, the horrors of twittergate and the awry setup are still rather fresh in mind. I'm glad he's generating the negative Nicole energy (which apparently is going to be turned into positive, again, ugh) into drive and determination for his championship push, he seems focussed on one thing and one thing only (I hope). He is leaving no stone unturned, it's exciting.

and seeing as 50% of this thread is Nico
I'm still wary of him (as a Hamilton fan, I actually think Nico is great). He has the speed somewhere, I felt a little sorry for him in Hungary, his run down to T1 was electric but from the exit onwards everything simply unravelled. You can't blame him for staring P2 in the face and a victory shot to becoming a tad short sighted and aggressive. The difference between when Hamilton was going through a rough patch was that the speed was expected to come back, and with a vengeance, can that really be said for Nico, where is he going to find that extra gear? Although it isn't as if he is slow, both drivers are pushing each other right now, its healthy... sort of. :)


Good post. It is a relieve to see that there ARE Hamilton fans who are able to believe that Hamilton is better than Rosberg but not by much. (Instead of things like: the RosbergS of this world... Kudo's!



#2609 study

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 19:16

I'm not prepared to get involved in this. On bad week for Lewis and Rosberg doing well, the vultures will come flying in.

Rosberg had a very poor last race, things didn't go right for him, but shouldn't forget he has outshone lewis a few times and he could again.
A strong Rosberg is needed for both the WDC and WCC charge to come true.

#2610 mgs315

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 19:24

Oh no, we are NOT re-visiting the Jenson v Lewis scorecard. Get back on topic, please, everyone.


mgs15 likes this.

Agreed with Tom though. Nico really is a dark horse. I see him giving Lewis hard times moreso than JB and I think JB is a pretty kick ass driver. I'd like to see Mercedes have an MP4/4 next year to see what Nico is really capable of.

#2611 NoDivergence

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 19:48

If they give Lewis a MP4/4 next year. Mother of God, I fear for the other drivers

#2612 Fangiola

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 21:14

If they give Lewis a MP4/4 next year. Mother of God, I fear for the other drivers


MP4/4 is unfair. I would settle for an RB6 or RB7

#2613 TomNokoe

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 22:22

He did say he was determined and went for gaps he normally wouldn't have. Plus everyone know how much he wants his 2nd WDC. He has a good chance to do so this season.

This bothered me. It implies that in the past hes been conservative, that he hasn't maximised his potential. I know these tyres are limiting, but it was strange for him to say that. I don't think he was being literal, it was just that he really was fed up with being in traffic, but this time it worked out for him.

#2614 TomNokoe

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 22:23

MP4/4 is unfair. I would settle for an RB6 or RB7

what about a W04 :)

#2615 Fangiola

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 22:31

what about a W04 :)


Loves eating tyres

#2616 lewymp4

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 05:31

Loves eating tyres

Not last sunday.




#2617 akshay380

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Posted 03 August 2013 - 05:43

As a Lewis fan I wont be happy if he gets a car like RB7 when the both drivers cruise 1-2* in the lead while rest follow some 10-15 sec behind. For me the best of Lewis is when he has a car on par with others to fight for championship. Those overtakes which only he can pull off!

*Unless other driver is Alo/Vet/Kimi

Edited by akshay380, 03 August 2013 - 05:44.


#2618 F1ultimate

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 07:38

Rosberg better get into a high gear.


Hamilton: "I am going to do everything I can in the gym, on the simulator and in the car to be a winner again and to give it a good go for the Championship,"

"The backing from Mercedes has been all that I could hope for. They have given me a strong, fast car that can be a winner and I want to repay them."

"All the tracks coming up in the second half of the season should suit me and the car. I will be making sure I am fit for the task." Source


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#2619 tmzxaar

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 08:15

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#2620 SR388

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 19:09

Sorry if this has been covered, but has Lewis gotten the brake issues sorted out?

#2621 undersquare

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 19:18

Sorry if this has been covered, but has Lewis gotten the brake issues sorted out?

Well he didn't mention them in Hungary afaik. If it's correct about the new wheel with the liner to reduce heat transfer, that we seemed to see a photo of, then I guess he's been able to go back to the hot-running Carbon Industrie brakes??

#2622 maverick69

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 19:18

Sorry if this has been covered, but has Lewis gotten the brake issues sorted out?


He seemed pretty happy on the anchors in Hungary - which has a couple of heavy breaking zones. So I would say that he's probably sorted in that department.

However. The lower temps that he may face at Spa may mean a different "feel" when jumping on them.

#2623 Markn93

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 19:55

Sorry if this has been covered, but has Lewis gotten the brake issues sorted out?

Three poles in a row? Lord help the grid if he hasn't.

#2624 maverick69

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 19:59

Three poles in a row? Lord help the grid if he hasn't.


:lol:

Perhaps the best reply!

#2625 TomNokoe

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 21:23

He's been back on CI since Canada IIRC. He always mentions here and there that he isn't 100% in sync with the car, but surely it's barely anything. He must he at 95% now, at least. Hamilton likes to underplay things, anyway, so he's probably where he wants to be.

#2626 Coops3

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 21:58

Three poles in a row? Lord help the grid if he hasn't.


Best post ever.

#2627 Rybo

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 22:02

He seemed pretty happy on the anchors in Hungary - which has a couple of heavy breaking zones. So I would say that he's probably sorted in that department.

However. The lower temps that he may face at Spa may mean a different "feel" when jumping on them.


They will have a different brake cooling package so the feel stays the same

#2628 superdelphinus

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 22:03

He's been back on CI since Canada IIRC. He always mentions here and there that he isn't 100% in sync with the car, but surely it's barely anything. He must he at 95% now, at least. Hamilton likes to underplay things, anyway, so he's probably where he wants to be.


Hamilton likes to underplay things??

#2629 SR388

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 22:05

Thank you all for the responses!

#2630 RubalSher

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 10:30

Three poles in a row? Lord help the grid if he hasn't.

:up:

#2631 TomNokoe

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 11:04

Hamilton likes to underplay things??

Yeah? He always likes to paint the worse possible picture, did I use the right wording? :lol:

#2632 Markn93

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 11:22

yea but it's about looking, not about track layout and quality of racing :p

I agree. He has a habit of playing things down, makes sense really, if he turns out to be correct then well, at least it was expected. On the other hand when he's completely wrong a la Hungary, "I have no chance" it feels that little bit better.

#2633 SanDiegoGo

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Posted 06 August 2013 - 15:16

Hamilton likes to underplay things??


Yes, but his fans/haters and the meeja like to blow everything he says way out of proportion. so what he actually says usually gets lost along the way. The man is good copy.


#2634 MP422

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 00:57

I agree. He has a habit of playing things down, makes sense really, if he turns out to be correct then well, at least it was expected. On the other hand when he's completely wrong a la Hungary, "I have no chance" it feels that little bit better.


I believe Merc as a team in general seem to do that.

#2635 akshay380

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 02:04

I believe Merc as a team in general seem to do that.

Guess it is because of past years experiences at Merc? Good car at the start of season and then decline? IIRC they were very conservative in strategies at the start of year. Dont see that anymore. :up:

#2636 gtbred

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Posted 07 August 2013 - 02:09

If they give Lewis a MP4/4 next year. Mother of God, I fear for the other drivers

Best line of the day!

#2637 Juggles

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 03:16

From the official site's mid-season review:

Indeed, the competition between the two former karting team mates has been far closer than many predicted with Rosberg’s smooth, considered approach more than a match for Hamilton’s more rugged style. At the half way point, Hamilton has the edge on pole positions (4-to-3), but it’s his German colleague who is leading the win count 2-to-1 thanks to sterling performances in Monaco and Britain. And if it weren’t for his three DNFs, Rosberg would likely be much closer to his team mate in the points.

But Hamilton, who has struggled with a lack of confidence in the F1 W04 for most of the year, definitely seems to be gaining in momentum as the season goes on, as demonstrated by his peerless drive in Hungary.


F1 mid-season review

This may be nitpicking but I have an issue with a few parts of that.

a) I wish people wouldn't use the phrase "more than a match for" when they don't understand what it means. Rosberg has not been "more than a match for" Hamilton because that would mean Rosberg had been better than Hamilton.

b) Using the win count as a measure of performance grates a bit considering what happened at Silverstone, particularly when Rosberg's win in Britain is called a "sterling performance."

c) The "without the three DNFs Rosberg would likely be much closer to his teammate in points" is lazy journalism and has been rightly discredited on this site by several people.


Basically I think the reviewer has seized on Hamilton vs Rosberg being the only remotely close teammate battle at the front and is exaggerating how close it's been. I still rate Rosberg highly but from what I've seen in the last four races, this isn't going to be another Alonso vs Hamilton.

#2638 Rybo

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 05:44

b) Using the win count as a measure of performance grates a bit considering what happened at Silverstone, particularly when Rosberg's win in Britain is called a "sterling performance."


Well they can't come out and say the tires are crap and failed after 10 laps...

#2639 mlsnoopy

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 06:27

From the official site's mid-season review:

Indeed, the competition between the two former karting team mates has been far closer than many predicted with Rosberg’s smooth, considered approach more than a match for Hamilton’s more rugged style. At the half way point, Hamilton has the edge on pole positions (4-to-3), but it’s his German colleague who is leading the win count 2-to-1 thanks to sterling performances in Monaco and Britain. And if it weren’t for his three DNFs, Rosberg would likely be much closer to his team mate in the points.

But Hamilton, who has struggled with a lack of confidence in the F1 W04 for most of the year, definitely seems to be gaining in momentum as the season goes on, as demonstrated by his peerless drive in Hungary.


F1 mid-season review

This may be nitpicking but I have an issue with a few parts of that.

a) I wish people wouldn't use the phrase "more than a match for" when they don't understand what it means. Rosberg has not been "more than a match for" Hamilton because that would mean Rosberg had been better than Hamilton.

b) Using the win count as a measure of performance grates a bit considering what happened at Silverstone, particularly when Rosberg's win in Britain is called a "sterling performance."

c) The "without the three DNFs Rosberg would likely be much closer to his teammate in points" is lazy journalism and has been rightly discredited on this site by several people.


Basically I think the reviewer has seized on Hamilton vs Rosberg being the only remotely close teammate battle at the front and is exaggerating how close it's been. I still rate Rosberg highly but from what I've seen in the last four races, this isn't going to be another Alonso vs Hamilton.


What about Hamilton's problems? Without the tyre failure in Silverstone it would be 2:1 in wins.

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#2640 Retrofly

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 06:51

Funny it talks about poloes and wins, rather than just how many times Ham has out qualified and beaten Rosberg in a race. At this point in time the gap is bigger than this writer is making out.

#2641 SophieB

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 07:50

Autosport Plus (subs only) this week have an interview with Andrew Shovlin, the Merc chief race engineer about managing the communications over the radio with the drivers, and also a couple of general observations.

If the car is off the pace and you've got a bit lost on set-up or you've lost your baseline, you can't seem to get the balance to work, the drivers do start to get a bit jumpy. The engineer's job is to calm them down and not to panic themselves.


He talks a little about Lewis & Nico in very general terms and how the race engineers have to cope when something like the tyre failure at Silverstone happens. No earth-shattering revelations but pretty interesting as general context for the team mate battle.



#2642 undersquare

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 08:16

From the official site's mid-season review:

Indeed, the competition between the two former karting team mates has been far closer than many predicted with Rosberg’s smooth, considered approach more than a match for Hamilton’s more rugged style. At the half way point, Hamilton has the edge on pole positions (4-to-3), but it’s his German colleague who is leading the win count 2-to-1 thanks to sterling performances in Monaco and Britain. And if it weren’t for his three DNFs, Rosberg would likely be much closer to his team mate in the points.

But Hamilton, who has struggled with a lack of confidence in the F1 W04 for most of the year, definitely seems to be gaining in momentum as the season goes on, as demonstrated by his peerless drive in Hungary.


F1 mid-season review

This may be nitpicking but I have an issue with a few parts of that.

a) I wish people wouldn't use the phrase "more than a match for" when they don't understand what it means. Rosberg has not been "more than a match for" Hamilton because that would mean Rosberg had been better than Hamilton.

b) Using the win count as a measure of performance grates a bit considering what happened at Silverstone, particularly when Rosberg's win in Britain is called a "sterling performance."

c) The "without the three DNFs Rosberg would likely be much closer to his teammate in points" is lazy journalism and has been rightly discredited on this site by several people.


Basically I think the reviewer has seized on Hamilton vs Rosberg being the only remotely close teammate battle at the front and is exaggerating how close it's been. I still rate Rosberg highly but from what I've seen in the last four races, this isn't going to be another Alonso vs Hamilton.

Yeah quite. A bit biased. And not 'smooth considered' versus 'rugged' again OMG :drunk:



#2643 maverick69

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 08:25

Yeah quite. A bit biased. And not 'smooth considered' versus 'rugged' again OMG :drunk:


Lol. Agreed!

If you got "rugged" with these tyres then you'll be lucky to make it back to the pits!

The article seems like patchwork quilt of other peoples opinions and stereotypes TBH.

Then again...... you've got to let the intern off tea making duty occasionally........


#2644 P123

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 08:49

Lol. Agreed!

If you got "rugged" with these tyres then you'll be lucky to make it back to the pits!

The article seems like patchwork quilt of other peoples opinions and stereotypes TBH.

Then again...... you've got to let the intern off tea making duty occasionally........


Nothing new for the F1 press. They like to put drivers into neat little boxes. If something happens that doesn't match with an already held preconception then it is ignored (such as Nico struggling with tyres in Bahrain and Canada relative to his 'rugged' tyre eating monster of a teammate) and if something happens which fits in their neat little box then it's amplified (such as Hamilton's fuel issue in Malaysia). The underdog prevailing is also a much more interesting narrative for a story.

Would Nico have more points had he not suffered retirements- well yeah, obviously. However in each of those races he was behind his teammate on track when his car expired. If the article wants to consider Rosberg's misfortune then it also has to consider the effects of Hamilton's tyre blow out in Silverstone, and the resulting large points swing in Nico's favour there. But don't hold your breath on anybody rushing to acknowledge that. Nico did have a very good run of races, and LH has had his much publicised issues with getting comfortable with the car- the focus on those two elements does somewhat distort the reality of the 10 races as a whole.

#2645 femi

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 10:28

Autosport Plus (subs only) this week have an interview with Andrew Shovlin, the Merc chief race engineer about managing the communications over the radio with the drivers, and also a couple of general observations.



He talks a little about Lewis & Nico in very general terms and how the race engineers have to cope when something like the tyre failure at Silverstone happens. No earth-shattering revelations but pretty interesting as general context for the team mate battle.



I just wonder how they could lose their baseline. Aren't those settings determined back at the factory even before the car arrives at the race venue and hence saved somewhere for them to return to if needed? Or did he mean new baselines created in the pits as they progressively(hopefully) prepare the car for quali and race?. Even if it was the latter, surely they must have a method of saving even these...

#2646 Kvothe

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 13:01

From the official site's mid-season review:

Indeed, the competition between the two former karting team mates has been far closer than many predicted with Rosberg’s smooth, considered approach more than a match for Hamilton’s more rugged style. At the half way point, Hamilton has the edge on pole positions (4-to-3), but it’s his German colleague who is leading the win count 2-to-1 thanks to sterling performances in Monaco and Britain. And if it weren’t for his three DNFs, Rosberg would likely be much closer to his team mate in the points.

But Hamilton, who has struggled with a lack of confidence in the F1 W04 for most of the year, definitely seems to be gaining in momentum as the season goes on, as demonstrated by his peerless drive in Hungary.


F1 mid-season review

This may be nitpicking but I have an issue with a few parts of that.

a) I wish people wouldn't use the phrase "more than a match for" when they don't understand what it means. Rosberg has not been "more than a match for" Hamilton because that would mean Rosberg had been better than Hamilton.

b) Using the win count as a measure of performance grates a bit considering what happened at Silverstone, particularly when Rosberg's win in Britain is called a "sterling performance."

c) The "without the three DNFs Rosberg would likely be much closer to his teammate in points" is lazy journalism and has been rightly discredited on this site by several people.


Basically I think the reviewer has seized on Hamilton vs Rosberg being the only remotely close teammate battle at the front and is exaggerating how close it's been. I still rate Rosberg highly but from what I've seen in the last four races, this isn't going to be another Alonso vs Hamilton.


Assuming you've quoted it in full, it appears they've also forgotten about Hamilton's tyre blowout and subsequent 5 place grid penalty in Bahrain, which considering his pace in the second part of the race (via live timing) cost him fourth place in my opinion and perhaps a chance at third.

As others have mentioned a poorly written piece, with the usual driving stereotypes, but how anyone can call Rosberg relatively smooth after his opening lap in Hungary, or his lockup in Montreal which led to the team having to pit him again, I don't know.

Than there is the overhyping of statistics to support the fallacy that its been close by focusing on poles and wins (4:3, 2:1 respectively), without focusing on the actual qualification and race results which are 7-3 in quali and 7-3 in the race (the Malaysia result balanced by the Silverstone one), while omitting that even the statistics that favour Rosberg such as the number of wins, don't hold up to any real scrutiny.





#2647 TomNokoe

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 14:10

Hamilton could have a grizzly bear as a team mate and they'd still be considered "smooth". Deary me. I don't understand how "fans" of this sport still harbour these ancient opinions.

#2648 JaredS

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 14:40

Autosport Plus (subs only) this week have an interview with Andrew Shovlin, the Merc chief race engineer about managing the communications over the radio with the drivers, and also a couple of general observations.



He talks a little about Lewis & Nico in very general terms and how the race engineers have to cope when something like the tyre failure at Silverstone happens. No earth-shattering revelations but pretty interesting as general context for the team mate battle.


Very interesting, and Shovlin also sounds like a calm race engineer.

#2649 JaredS

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Posted 09 August 2013 - 14:43

I just wonder how they could lose their baseline. Aren't those settings determined back at the factory even before the car arrives at the race venue and hence saved somewhere for them to return to if needed? Or did he mean new baselines created in the pits as they progressively(hopefully) prepare the car for quali and race?. Even if it was the latter, surely they must have a method of saving even these...


The problem I think is that the track and conditions are always changing. So when they go back to their baseline setup, it no longer feels the same as it did earlier because the track has improved etc. Which makes it very difficult for a driver who has gone down the wrong setup path to try and find his way back on it again. In fact, they need to find a new baseline again and try improving from that.

#2650 F1ultimate

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 11:16

Lewis is already being spoken off as if he's the first son.

Ross Brawn: “We’ll have a much more respectable second half. We’ve scored more points already than we did last year, and we’re just over halfway through. We’ve got a strong enough organisation to ensure we won’t let it slip. We’re on a journey here with Lewis and we don’t know where the limits are.”

Telegraph

Rosberg surely aims to break Lewis' run of pole positions, and I think he can. Looking at past performance, Rosberg has been a very strong qualifier at Spa and I see the possibility of another Monaco where both drivers are extremely close in one lap pace.