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Monaco 2013 - how did Lewis lose 2nd?


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#1 chrcol

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 15:21

will sky replay it? missed it.

or has someone got to put on youtube?

thanks.

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#2 weston

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 15:26

will sky replay it? missed it.

or has someone got to put on youtube?

thanks.


Yes. They analyzed it.
Lewis lost some important seconds.


#3 charly0418

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 15:27

Basically, Lewis was too slow during the SC

#4 chrcol

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 15:28

Yes. They analyzed it.
Lewis lost some important seconds.



I think they said more then that.

nico also lost seconds.

red bull only didnt get 1-2 because the SC held them back wrongfully.

#5 weston

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 15:36

I think they said more then that.

nico also lost seconds.

red bull only didnt get 1-2 because the SC held them back wrongfully.



Lewis lost several important seconds compared to Nico.

#6 sharo

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 15:37

Maybe explanation is due by Race control. Why the SC held back both RBR cars and Kimi.

#7 Watkins74

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 15:39

Maybe explanation is due by Race control. Why the SC held back both RBR cars and Kimi.

...and Alonso. In my opinion Mercedes got a gift today by the SC.

Those other cars had already pitted and should have moved to the front.

#8 August

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 15:50

I'm confused how Merc couldn't keep 1-2. Let's think about Australia '12:

The order was Jenson-Lewis-Seb. Jenson and Lewis had pitted, and Seb pitted when SC came. He really shouldn't have time for a pitstop to get ahead of Lewis. But, there's the minimum lap time, and as the start/finish lane was at the pit exit, pit stop was included to the lap time and he could have a fast in lap. If the s/f line would've been at the pit entry, he couldn't have had a fast in lap enabling to get ahead of Lewis.

Now, the s/f line was at the pit exit, and it should've enabled a fast in lap as the pit stop is included to the minimum lap time. But, were they having a slow in lap, and RBR drivers having pitted earlier had had faster previous laps, enbling them to get past Lewis?

#9 SenorSjon

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 15:51

All mercedes powered cars were gifted today.

* RB and Ferrari were wrongfully held up so at least Rosberg could retain the lead.
* Perez doing do or die's and cutting chicane's without even a glimpse from race control.

#10 DS27

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 16:41

All mercedes powered cars were gifted today.

* RB and Ferrari were wrongfully held up so at least Rosberg could retain the lead.
* Perez doing do or die's and cutting chicane's without even a glimpse from race control.



Well, the safety car is a Merc :drunk:

#11 metz

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 20:13

Pondered the same question.
Concluded that Lewis lost 2nd by pitting the same lap as Rosberg. Delay let the RBs through.

#12 Lights

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 20:16

Even if Lewis lost a few seconds because of his own mistake, would it have mattered? Those Red Bull's were already streaming past.

#13 Sennasational

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 20:19

Even if Lewis lost a few seconds because of his own mistake, would it have mattered? Those Red Bull's were already streaming past.


It does seem that because Ros/Ham were 'behind' the SC they had to go to the lap deltas (not get caught speeding behind the SC) but because Red Bull were allowed through they could go flat out until they rejoined. When Red Bull are the ones crying about a meaningless tyre test, this kind of lucky advantage is hilariously ironic.

#14 TecnoRacing

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 20:26

Wasn't Hamilton pretty much 'right there' when the Nico's stop was completed?...I don't see how things could have gone that differently...

#15 Buttoneer

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 20:31

BBC interview at the end of the highlights show suggested that Hamilton held back knowing that he was going to have to stack and held back too long. He should have been there ready to take Rosbergs place at the jack, and wasn't. He apologised to the team for the error and for the loss of points during that interview.

#16 stanga

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 22:06

BBC interview at the end of the highlights show suggested that Hamilton held back knowing that he was going to have to stack and held back too long. He should have been there ready to take Rosbergs place at the jack, and wasn't. He apologised to the team for the error and for the loss of points during that interview.


But nobody has stated what was the time difference Vettel passing the pit exit and Hamilton exiting, relative to the time Nico left the box and Lewis entered it. I don't think it was as marginal as people are making out - my gut reaction anyway.

#17 Buttoneer

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 23:01

I've checked the softpauer app and as they cross the line into lap 31 the gap to Rosberg was 3.1s and Hamilton had just done the fastest lap of the race for #29 and clearly had pace. Vettel was another 2.1s behind Hamilton but pits and Webber another 18s behind him. It all flashes yellow with a safety car call and Vettel exits 2s in front of Webber but they're both way behind the Mercedes pair. Rosberg is 23.6s ahead of Vettel and Hamilton 21s.

Then, after they've come out from the tunnel, Lewis slows to admire the nice boats. "I wonder which one is mine" he thinks, distractedly, and slows down to read the names so that he's just in Tabac while Rosberg is 4.6s ahead in the swimming pool section. It's 6.6 when Rosberg hits Rascasse and then the timings just jump right up to 10.5s. Vettel is 25s behind Rosberg and now only 15s behind Hamilton.

The app jumps about a little with pitstops and Rosberg appears as if by magic 5.4s in front of Vettel and 6.7 in front of Webber.

Clearly, If Hamilton had kept up and stacked there is no guarantee that he would have been in front of either because the second stop in the queue couldn't be quite as slick as the first but I'm willing to bet he'd have split the Red Bulls as a bare minimum. In a strict reading of the numbers (Hamilton 3.1s behind originally and Rosberg ahead of Vettel after the stops by 5.4) he might have been second.

We also have no idea whether the team told him to slow a little and by how much so it may have been out of his hands anyway.

#18 Juan Kerr

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 23:06

Basically, Lewis was too slow during the SC

Not at all, the RedBulls screeched off at full racing speed as soon as the pace car let them go which is against the rules.


#19 turssi

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 23:22

All mercedes powered cars were gifted today.

* RB and Ferrari were wrongfully held up so at least Rosberg could retain the lead.
* Perez doing do or die's and cutting chicane's without even a glimpse from race control.


Charlie from race control just executed FIAs orders. Maybe Mercedes has been doing some favors as of lately...

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#20 HuddersfieldTerrier1986

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 23:36

We also have no idea whether the team told him to slow a little and by how much so it may have been out of his hands anyway.


But I'm pretty certain he said it was his mistake and he dropped too far back and that the team weren't to blame.

#21 Buttoneer

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 23:42

He did say that, as I mentioned in my post above, but he slowed down a lot, and perhaps the team just asked him to build a buffer not expecting him to make that an 11s buffer.

#22 Rinehart

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 23:45

He was supposed to drop back 6 seconds as the team planned to double shuffle. As it is he dropped more which was his mistake. Even without the safety car I think he'd have probably lost 2nd with this strategy.

#23 Buttoneer

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 23:48

Why 6s? Why anything at all? If a standard stop is 3s, does it need another 3s to get the next set of tyres ready?

Is there a link to the 6s thing?

#24 Rinehart

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 23:51

Why 6s? Why anything at all? If a standard stop is 3s, does it need another 3s to get the next set of tyres ready?

Is there a link to the 6s thing?


Because the gap kept vettel more than 6 secs behind Rosberg on the road. The plan was to guarantee a win. Lewis was then in a shoot out for 2nd place.

*inside knowledge.

Edited by Rinehart, 26 May 2013 - 23:52.


#25 prty

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 23:56

No, it's 6 seconds as it's the minimum time required to do two consecutive pitstops, as PDLR explained (the stationary time itself is around 3 secs but the car has to brake an accelerate). He left a bit more by error of judgement, so he lost the places.

#26 harrys

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 00:25

It's not right for drivers to gain/lose positions just from the luck of whether they pitstop just before or just after the safety car. Losing a hard-earned lead is bad enough.

We can't allow muppets who crash all the time (Maldonado, Grosjean) to determine the outcome of races and championships. Of course there is a luck element in all sports, but if it can be eliminated then why not?



#27 Buttoneer

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 07:50

No, it's 6 seconds as it's the minimum time required to do two consecutive pitstops, as PDLR explained (the stationary time itself is around 3 secs but the car has to brake an accelerate). He left a bit more by error of judgement, so he lost the places.

Ok, thanks.

#28 sharo

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 08:00

Not at all, the RedBulls screeched off at full racing speed as soon as the pace car let them go which is against the rules.

Not at all. They have to drive to a delta which is mandatory under SC. Had they gone faster they'd be meeting the stewards.

#29 ayanate

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 08:55

The level of debate on this topic is really poor on this board, Sky and the BBC were equally inept. To compound it all F1 officiating is a complete shambles; borne out by this alleged illegal testing, how that can happen without everyone consenting is beyond any reasonable person's understanding, total farce.

What is the point of a 'safety car' if it is going to let some cars continue racing once it is on the track? The speed differentials that creates between cars makes the situation even more dangerous, not less. Surely racing should stop once the SC is deployed.
What speed deltas are the cars given if any? Raikkonen was summoned by the stewards for speeding, so obviously there was something in place, but I have no idea what it was and no one during the race coverage or so far here has said what it is. All you get are the anti-fans pointing out that it is a driver error. Sorry that's way too simplistic for this forum, we can do better surely.

On the Merc front, did the team not know that the Red Bulls were racing to the front and so to give their drivers a hurry up? They lost an easy one-two there and are leaving Lewis to carry the blame. Martin Brundle said Merc had a free pit stop when the SC was deployed and he got it awfully wrong, Rosberg nearly lost the lead. If he with the benefit of all that info didn't know what was going on, what chance do the drivers? Lewis should be have been told where he needs to be to keep his position by the team, simple! I hope behind closed doors he is emphasising this point and doesn't want to wash dirty linen in public and that's why he copped it.








#30 fastwriter

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 08:59

It does seem that because Ros/Ham were 'behind' the SC they had to go to the lap deltas (not get caught speeding behind the SC) but because Red Bull were allowed through they could go flat out until they rejoined. When Red Bull are the ones crying about a meaningless tyre test, this kind of lucky advantage is hilariously ironic.



It was not a lucky advantage, it was a good call from the pit wall by RBR. I wondered why Mercedes waited so long to call their cars to the pits. I think, Merc were very lucky not to lose P1 to the Red Bulls in that situation.

Edited by fastwriter, 27 May 2013 - 08:59.


#31 AidenGeek

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 09:14

Not at all. They have to drive to a delta which is mandatory under SC. Had they gone faster they'd be meeting the stewards.


I'm not sure, did you see how fast the Red Bulls sped off from the Safety Car? Looked like normal race speed to me for the few moments we saw them. I think Hamilton is partly to blame, but not entirely.

#32 Watkins74

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 09:24

Not at all. They have to drive to a delta which is mandatory under SC. Had they gone faster they'd be meeting the stewards.

Are you sure? I thought the Delta was displayed on the FIA ECU was for minimum time. Otherwise you are going by Yellow flag rules and you can't pass but you can still go pretty quick until you catch the safety car.

I am not saying your wrong, I am just trying to understand these damn SC rules.

#33 Torch

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 09:41

No, it's 6 seconds as it's the minimum time required to do two consecutive pitstops, as PDLR explained (the stationary time itself is around 3 secs but the car has to brake an accelerate). He left a bit more by error of judgement, so he lost the places.


Not sure I follow.

Rosberg is stationary for less than 3 seconds. It's true Rosberg has to brake coming into pits/box, but so does Hamilton, therefore Hamilton doesn't gain any 'time'. When Rosberg comes to a stop, Hamilton would still be 6 seconds behind regardless of whether that's circuit/pitlane/braking zone. When Rosberg leaves the pitbox, Hamilton is still 3 seconds behind. Isn't that 3 seconds wasted or am I missing something?

In an ideal situation Hamilton would 'tap' the back of Rosberg in the pit box, but to do this he would have to be 3 secs behind.




#34 velgajski1

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 09:58

It's really bad that Lewis still makes bizzare mistakes like that one.

#35 f1fastestlap

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 10:14

It's really bad that Lewis still makes bizzare mistakes like that one.


Yeah, silly Lewis making a mistake while instructed by the team to try to be 6secs behind someone he can't even see on the track...
:rolleyes:

#36 Cool Beans

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 10:17

Mercedes got lucky with Nico, the SC held up the Red Bulls and Kimi for a long time and all three would have gone past Nico too had they not been held up for so long before getting released.

#37 ayanate

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 10:43

It's really bad that Lewis still makes bizzare mistakes like that one.

That's simplistic nonsense, shouldn't one person at least be looking at the Red Bulls from the pit wall and inform the drivers straight away? Only Hamilton it seems is held to these ridiculously high standards of instinctively knowing everything required to manage a race.

#38 Oho

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 10:51

Mercedes got lucky with Nico, the SC held up the Red Bulls and Kimi for a long time and all three would have gone past Nico too had they not been held up for so long before getting released.


But where did Räikkönen lose time against Webber? I was forced to watch the race through shitty stream that kept breaking up but I thought Räikkönen rejoined pretty close to Webber after the first round of stops.

Edited by Oho, 27 May 2013 - 10:59.


#39 Owen

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 10:52

He did say that, as I mentioned in my post above, but he slowed down a lot, and perhaps the team just asked him to build a buffer not expecting him to make that an 11s buffer.

BBC team (especially EJ) seemed pretty emphatic that Lewis was at fault by slowing down too much before entering the pits.
But it's easy to take that stance from the comfort of the commentary box! It's a shame as it would have enlivened the championship race a bit more.

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#40 peroa

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 10:56

But where did Räikkönen lose time against Webber? I was forced to watch the race through shitty stream that kept breaking up but I thought Räikkönen rejoined pretty close to Webber after after the first round of stops.

Behind the SC, IIRC the SC first let the RBR's passed and collected KR and the others behind.
:stoned:

#41 Oho

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 10:58

Behind the SC, IIRC the SC first let the RBR's passed and collected KR and the others behind.
:stoned:



Aah so the SC was like randomized turnstile....

#42 PurpleHam

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 11:19

But I'm pretty certain he said it was his mistake and he dropped too far back and that the team weren't to blame.

But I've seen this many times, he takes the blame as that's what everybody is telling him, when he's in the press pit he has not had the advantage of having a team debrief, which is probably happening today or tomorrow.

Hamilton is too mellow these days, too passive, he should have said I don't know but we will check the data and see what went wrong, he's too honest for his own good.

As Buttoneer has posted, I believe nothing he had done would have saved 2nd, and he did say he had been told to keep a 6 second gap by his team to Rosberg.


#43 ayanate

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 12:22

But I've seen this many times, he takes the blame as that's what everybody is telling him, when he's in the press pit he has not had the advantage of having a team debrief, which is probably happening today or tomorrow.

Hamilton is too mellow these days, too passive, he should have said I don't know but we will check the data and see what went wrong, he's too honest for his own good.

As Buttoneer has posted, I believe nothing he had done would have saved 2nd, and he did say he had been told to keep a 6 second gap by his team to Rosberg.

You are right about Hamilton, the hope was that Ross Brawn knew this about him at Mclaren and would help manage races better. Maybe with Nico being quicker, they feel they don't need to worry about him too much.

It did not seem to me that Merc were that bothered about getting the one-two. Could be they were trying to appease RB over the 'illegal' test and scoring a one-two would have been rubbing the other teams noses in it. Just a thought.

#44 Jon83

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 12:46

I'm not sure, did you see how fast the Red Bulls sped off from the Safety Car? Looked like normal race speed to me for the few moments we saw them. I think Hamilton is partly to blame, but not entirely.


They were certainly pretty quick once released.

Not sure what Rosberg's sector times were on his in-lap.

#45 AustinF1

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 16:51

Why were the Bulls allowed past the SC?

#46 Buttoneer

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 16:53

As Buttoneer has posted, I believe nothing he had done would have saved 2nd, and he did say he had been told to keep a 6 second gap by his team to Rosberg.

No, you either didn't read or didn't understand my post. The gap was 10.5 seconds according to the last reading I have before he pits, which is far more than he needed. Whether his error is understandable or not, and you can debate that as much as you like, it was still his.

#47 SamH123

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 17:04

Why were the Bulls allowed past the SC?


I was just going to ask the same thing, I get soo confused when the SC comes out

I think that the SC was released at the 'wrong' time so missed the Mercs and only collected the RBs. But how did the bulls get back into 2nd and 3rd
Did the SC stop and wait at one point?

Edited by SamH123, 27 May 2013 - 17:05.


#48 ZooL

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 17:06

I don't think anyone has done a thorough enough analysis, not the media, not this forum.

I haven't done it yet, but from what I've seen there was nothing that Hamilton could have done to prevent losing positions to RBR.

Buttoneer you can see from the pics that when Rosberg left the box Mercedes were not waiting anywhere near 11 seconds for Hamilton to reach the box. Hamilton could have shaved 4-5 seconds off, but some here are saying that the RBR's already went screaming past in the background while Hamilton was in the pitbox?

Edited by ZooL, 27 May 2013 - 17:07.


#49 SenorSjon

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 17:46

I'm not sure, did you see how fast the Red Bulls sped off from the Safety Car? Looked like normal race speed to me for the few moments we saw them. I think Hamilton is partly to blame, but not entirely.

Their lap time delta was already screwed by waiting behind the SC. So at attack speed they would still not go to fast.

#50 pingu666

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 18:20

it probably was a bad idea to tell lewis to slow down, and really you can only guess a gap round monaco, as you cant see through barriers...